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Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Well, you might feel like that, but you would be wrong. The rights and ownership is still in the hands of the creators. Never the fans.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
I feel that the creation of a story belongs to the owner and the owner completely until he publishes it or puts it out in the open. Once that has been done though it belongs to everyone. Such as fans.
I feel that the creation of a story belongs to the owner and the owner completely until he publishes it or puts it out in the open. Once that has been done though it belongs to everyone. Such as fans.
Well, you might feel like that, but you would be wrong. The rights and ownership is still in the hands of the creators. Never the fans.
I would say George Lucas agrees with you. (....really hate that Return of the Jedi change he just made. -_-)
But anyway, another thing they should explain.. if Raiden sent a message back in time from Armageddon, why doesn't he just do that again at the end of this game and go: "Hey, you know those messages you just got? This is all you have to do. Just ignore everything else."
ProudNintendofan Wrote:
I would say George Lucas agrees with you. (....really hate that Return of the Jedi change he just made. -_-)
But anyway, another thing they should explain.. if Raiden sent a message back in time from Armageddon, why doesn't he just do that again at the end of this game and go: "Hey, you know those messages you just got? This is all you have to do. Just ignore everything else."
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Well, you might feel like that, but you would be wrong. The rights and ownership is still in the hands of the creators. Never the fans.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
I feel that the creation of a story belongs to the owner and the owner completely until he publishes it or puts it out in the open. Once that has been done though it belongs to everyone. Such as fans.
I feel that the creation of a story belongs to the owner and the owner completely until he publishes it or puts it out in the open. Once that has been done though it belongs to everyone. Such as fans.
Well, you might feel like that, but you would be wrong. The rights and ownership is still in the hands of the creators. Never the fans.
I would say George Lucas agrees with you. (....really hate that Return of the Jedi change he just made. -_-)
But anyway, another thing they should explain.. if Raiden sent a message back in time from Armageddon, why doesn't he just do that again at the end of this game and go: "Hey, you know those messages you just got? This is all you have to do. Just ignore everything else."
Hey, what did Lucas change in the Star Wars movie? Oh noes. First of all, why did Raiden send such an obscure message? He could have easily said "Kahn must win." or a longer message during the beatdown. But no, Raiden plainly says "He must win." and causes additional destruction with that. Raiden /= Logic. Often in the series where time travel is used they avoid utilizing it because "It's dangerous to change one's destiny."
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Zmoke Wrote:
That would be the residual self-image to which you agreed on a few posts ago. This whole thing is just pure speculation however. See the other self-images.
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
I don't think the dead chooses how they wish to look like.
Zmoke Wrote:
I mean, if Cysuze comes to Netherrealm in the way he feels to be looking like, how can he imagine places of his body like his back correctly or other places he can't see (assuming his suit model was exclusive to him)? Nonetheless, this is one of those minor issues really.
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Explain, please. I'm not sure I get what you mean.
Zmoke Wrote:
You can't expect Cysuze to know what his back or the bottoms of his boots look like, unless he managed to already check them out from a mirror.
You can't expect Cysuze to know what his back or the bottoms of his boots look like, unless he managed to already check them out from a mirror.
Explain, please. I'm not sure I get what you mean.
I mean, if Cysuze comes to Netherrealm in the way he feels to be looking like, how can he imagine places of his body like his back correctly or other places he can't see (assuming his suit model was exclusive to him)? Nonetheless, this is one of those minor issues really.
I don't think the dead chooses how they wish to look like.
That would be the residual self-image to which you agreed on a few posts ago. This whole thing is just pure speculation however. See the other self-images.
You're thinking too much into it, I believe. XD
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
You're thinking too much into it, I believe. XD
Zmoke Wrote:
That would be the residual self-image to which you agreed on a few posts ago. This whole thing is just pure speculation however. See the other self-images.
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
I don't think the dead chooses how they wish to look like.
Zmoke Wrote:
I mean, if Cysuze comes to Netherrealm in the way he feels to be looking like, how can he imagine places of his body like his back correctly or other places he can't see (assuming his suit model was exclusive to him)? Nonetheless, this is one of those minor issues really.
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Explain, please. I'm not sure I get what you mean.
Zmoke Wrote:
You can't expect Cysuze to know what his back or the bottoms of his boots look like, unless he managed to already check them out from a mirror.
You can't expect Cysuze to know what his back or the bottoms of his boots look like, unless he managed to already check them out from a mirror.
Explain, please. I'm not sure I get what you mean.
I mean, if Cysuze comes to Netherrealm in the way he feels to be looking like, how can he imagine places of his body like his back correctly or other places he can't see (assuming his suit model was exclusive to him)? Nonetheless, this is one of those minor issues really.
I don't think the dead chooses how they wish to look like.
That would be the residual self-image to which you agreed on a few posts ago. This whole thing is just pure speculation however. See the other self-images.
You're thinking too much into it, I believe. XD
I suppose I shouldn't because you can find these holes of a plot from dozens of places from Mortal Kombat and that kind of waters down the feeling to it. It's not my fault NeRdS aren't doing things how I want!
About Me
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I said it was sort of similar to residual self-image. Not exactly the same. What they think they look like isn't what I meant.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
I said it was sort of similar to residual self-image. Not exactly the same. What they think they look like isn't what I meant.
I said it was sort of similar to residual self-image. Not exactly the same. What they think they look like isn't what I meant.
What kind of self-image were you mostly meaning and what differences does it have with the residual one? → Any possible elaboration was requested. Judging from the earlier post, the most probable term for the afterlife look to use would be something like residual outsider-image.
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
I agree that there are indeed major plotholes and retcons in this storyline that are yet to be explained. Many of them I disagree with, others I simply wish to have explained. Either way, I accept the story for what it is. I defend it, because in general, I like the storyline, poor writing or not.
The things I would like to have explained by NRS:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
I agree that there are indeed major plotholes and retcons in this storyline that are yet to be explained. Many of them I disagree with, others I simply wish to have explained. Either way, I accept the story for what it is. I defend it, because in general, I like the storyline, poor writing or not.
The things I would like to have explained by NRS:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
I'll try to explain some of them:
2) Raiden couldn't save Sub-Zero because it meant direct conflict with Shao Kahn and his minions and Shinnok only knows what penalty from Shao Kahn for breaking the rules of the tournament and attacking his allies, who Lin Kueai was already at that moment.
5) I think NRS writers doesn't like Shang Tsung all that much. Or at least they like Quan Chi much more than him.
6) I think Raiden could heal simple wounds, but he can't resurect almost dead people like Liu Kang or heal soul / life energy drain (Kitana).
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
Some fans, however, seem to think that MK is theirs and if things aren't going the way they want it to go, then they feel betrayed, as if something was taken from them... something that wasn't theirs to begin with.
Some fans, however, seem to think that MK is theirs and if things aren't going the way they want it to go, then they feel betrayed, as if something was taken from them... something that wasn't theirs to begin with.
Agree.
Espio872 Wrote:
An example of good writing from Yu Yu Hakusho, Koenma used his Mafukken spell to resurrect a dead child, it required hundreds of years of the overseer of the universe's stored spirit energy to ressurect the dead child, so when it came time to save someone else, it was explained that he had no further energy to do so, they didn't just say nothing and leave it up in the air, they explained why he couldn't do it, how he was able to do it in the first place etc.
An example of good writing from Yu Yu Hakusho, Koenma used his Mafukken spell to resurrect a dead child, it required hundreds of years of the overseer of the universe's stored spirit energy to ressurect the dead child, so when it came time to save someone else, it was explained that he had no further energy to do so, they didn't just say nothing and leave it up in the air, they explained why he couldn't do it, how he was able to do it in the first place etc.
I don't know who they are.
But I think Raiden has his limitations and couldn't save people on the verge of death.
Ok, now for the Sub-Zero's fans:
ColdHearted Wrote:
I can't fathom how people don't understand why "Sub-Zero fans" are generally upset with Cyber Sub-Zero and his involvement in MK9.
He is a completely different character. Clearly, his physical appearance has been changed entirely. He no longer looks anything like the Sub-Zero so many fans grew to love.
I can't fathom how people don't understand why "Sub-Zero fans" are generally upset with Cyber Sub-Zero and his involvement in MK9.
He is a completely different character. Clearly, his physical appearance has been changed entirely. He no longer looks anything like the Sub-Zero so many fans grew to love.
So, let me guess, Sub-Zero fans are so simpleton that they care only about his appearance? And they don't care about what his character is on the inside? Though, given how many of so called "true Sub-Zero fans" screaming about his appearance and seemingly miss the point of the whole CSZ chapter it was expected.
And given your idea that he looks nothing like old good Sub-Zero - I don't know if you aware of it, but Sub-zero looked pretty different in Deadly Alliance and Deception. Basically in DA he didn't even had his MK ninja jacket.
ColdHearted Wrote:
And the changes made to the plot of MK9, and the ways in which it altered the original trilogy, begin to completely distort and change the characters story. I've read several people in this topic say things along the lines of "just because he can't have the same story as before, doesn't mean he can't go forward as a cyborg and have an excellent story."
And that's true.
But it won't be Sub-Zero's story. Sub-Zero's story was one of loss. The loss of his brother, the loss of his best friend, the loss of a student. He is a tragic character in the fact that he avoids harm, he avoids pitfalls, but has to watch everyone he loves suffer and fall victim to terrible fates.
His story was one of perseverance, one of humanity overcoming technology. All these things have been lost. With Smoke spared, he does not lose that friend, he does not watch another loved one disappear/die/be mutilated/etc. He suffers the horrible fate. It completely changes the background and story of the character.
And the changes made to the plot of MK9, and the ways in which it altered the original trilogy, begin to completely distort and change the characters story. I've read several people in this topic say things along the lines of "just because he can't have the same story as before, doesn't mean he can't go forward as a cyborg and have an excellent story."
And that's true.
But it won't be Sub-Zero's story. Sub-Zero's story was one of loss. The loss of his brother, the loss of his best friend, the loss of a student. He is a tragic character in the fact that he avoids harm, he avoids pitfalls, but has to watch everyone he loves suffer and fall victim to terrible fates.
His story was one of perseverance, one of humanity overcoming technology. All these things have been lost. With Smoke spared, he does not lose that friend, he does not watch another loved one disappear/die/be mutilated/etc. He suffers the horrible fate. It completely changes the background and story of the character.
If anything after turning into cyborg Kuai Liang comes as much more badass and tragic character then before. And his battle to save his humanity is more actual than it ever was in the Old Canon. And Smoke was always small part of it in the old story, considering that he completely diappeared from next several games in a row and Sub-Zero never mentioned him and never met him until the end of MKD.
Besides you once again step on the same shovel as the others "Sub-Zero true fans" - MK9 retells only HALF of the MK canon - MK1-MK3. HALF!! It is meaningless to compare the storyline form seven games and three games. It would be obvious to any adequate person. Not to some fans though.
"His story is one about loss" you say? Well, then his MK9 story is an ultimate version of story about loss. And, yes, whatever Kuai Liang will do now, no matter, cyborg or human - it will "Sub-Zero junior's story" like it or not.
ColdHearted Wrote:
And so now, what you're left with is a "Sub-Zero" that looks nothing like the SZ so many people came to be a fan of over the course of nearly two decades. And now, you have a "Sub-Zero" who does not have the same personality, story, obstacles to overcome, losses and tragedies to define him.
And so now, what you're left with is a "Sub-Zero" that looks nothing like the SZ so many people came to be a fan of over the course of nearly two decades. And now, you have a "Sub-Zero" who does not have the same personality, story, obstacles to overcome, losses and tragedies to define him.
Now you embarrass yourself, dude.
CSZ acted exactly like Sub-Zero would act, even if he stayed human in his chapter in MK9. He go all out to save humans - exactly what Sub-Zero-human would do.
Now, you either never wathced CSZ chapter in MK9 or just so fanboish that even simpliest logical functions are unavailable to you.
ColdHearted Wrote:
Would Jade fans not be irate? It would be part Jade's story, but with a heavy dose of Mileena mixed in. And then what? She wouldn't look like Jade, wouldn't have the same history or story of Jade, wouldn't have the same traits as jade.
Would Jade fans not be irate? It would be part Jade's story, but with a heavy dose of Mileena mixed in. And then what? She wouldn't look like Jade, wouldn't have the same history or story of Jade, wouldn't have the same traits as jade.
LOL.
Your mistake is that CSZ has all traits of Sub-Zero. But i think I made my point clear already.
Viser Wrote:
also jaded looking at ur posting history u love to argue with people a lot, did someone get bullied to much, so they talk big online? Im actually very curious about this
this reminds me actually of how bad u used to bash scorpion, and one of his fans had enough of u, and u kept running ur mouth. internet tough guy i guess.
also jaded looking at ur posting history u love to argue with people a lot, did someone get bullied to much, so they talk big online? Im actually very curious about this
this reminds me actually of how bad u used to bash scorpion, and one of his fans had enough of u, and u kept running ur mouth. internet tough guy i guess.
I smell either troll or a child.
Jaded is one of the most intelligent people on this board. And well-spoken too.
You so far show nothing, but pathetic insults and rudeness. If anything it looks like you are pretending to be a "tough guy" with your attitude. I wonder is that some issues you've got?
Scar_Subby Wrote:
Just want to say what an a-hole RedSumac is one more time. Honestly, does it matter if I use correct English that much or were you just trying to pick a fight, again?
Just want to say what an a-hole RedSumac is one more time. Honestly, does it matter if I use correct English that much or were you just trying to pick a fight, again?
Gee...another one. What with modern generation of Sub-Zero's fans? Couldn't think logically, insult people, couldn't even spell corectly. That's just strange.
Actually it makes much easier to reply to your "posts", if it is possible to read what the hell was written, without trying to decifer where one part of the sentense ends and the other begins. In general you are once again proved yourself to be an immature child that don't even want to aknowledge it simpliest mistakes and throws insults for the rightfully done reamrk.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
Kuai Liang still have his humanity even as a cyborg." Wow, so I should take an English lesson from someone who doesn't even know how to use the word has?
Kuai Liang still have his humanity even as a cyborg." Wow, so I should take an English lesson from someone who doesn't even know how to use the word has?
Maybe my English is a bit unpolished and sometimes rusty, but at least I try to make my writing understandable. You are on purpose excluded commas from your writing. You don't even try to put them in there.
So who is worse: the guy who try to write corectly, but fails sometimes, or the guy who don't even try to put his thoughts properly at all?
I think that answer is obvious.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
You mean to tell me that even though Cyber Subz is 20-21 in popularity on the site, he is still actually more popular than Human Sub-Zero?
You mean to tell me that even though Cyber Subz is 20-21 in popularity on the site, he is still actually more popular than Human Sub-Zero?
Considering that not everyone vote on the site, those numbers should've been taking with a grain of salt.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
If Smoke was weaker than Sub-Zero in the original timeline, then he should be weaker now.
If Smoke was weaker than Sub-Zero in the original timeline, then he should be weaker now.
Wrong.
By the same logic one can say that, if Stryker was fat donut eater in the old timeline, then he should be like this in the new one.
Given that Smoke received complete makeover and received his own moveset (and he never had one as a human), it could be said that his power level now could be very different from the times, when he was mostly poor Scorpion copycat in both human and cyborg forms.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
I noticed one comment to Razer where he ask's why does Razer's opinion even matter? Why the hell does your opinion matter RedSumac? Stop coming on here talking down to people it's just not needed. Your not anymore an expert than anyone else and you can act more civil. You just choose not to.
I noticed one comment to Razer where he ask's why does Razer's opinion even matter? Why the hell does your opinion matter RedSumac? Stop coming on here talking down to people it's just not needed. Your not anymore an expert than anyone else and you can act more civil. You just choose not to.
Because my opinions usually based on the logical assumptions derived from the canon sources, not on speculations, fantasy or blind devotion to my own views of the series. And I don't care if my opinion needed or not - it's a forum for everyone.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
It belongs to the fans because let's be honest. They are trying to make money and they want their story to help them make that money. If the fans don't like or extremely like one aspect of the story then they have the right to say that it should or should not be changed and the writers should pay attention to that. No, for creativity purposes they should not fold on every single issue. However, on an issue like this that has so completely divided the fanbase it would be smart to listen to fans somewhat and when their is such outcry for human sub-zero I do believe they should listen. I'm not saying I'm right though, It's just my opinion. The story doesn't belong to them anymore because they put it out in the public, now fans have a say.
It belongs to the fans because let's be honest. They are trying to make money and they want their story to help them make that money. If the fans don't like or extremely like one aspect of the story then they have the right to say that it should or should not be changed and the writers should pay attention to that. No, for creativity purposes they should not fold on every single issue. However, on an issue like this that has so completely divided the fanbase it would be smart to listen to fans somewhat and when their is such outcry for human sub-zero I do believe they should listen. I'm not saying I'm right though, It's just my opinion. The story doesn't belong to them anymore because they put it out in the public, now fans have a say.
No, creation belongs to whoever created it. Never to the fans.
If fans is disappointed, creator could always redo his creation and find new fans. Or continue to make whatever he do, for his own pleasure.
When creator wants money, he could redo his creation into what popular now and have as much money as he wants, using popular trends and fashion. Of course it most likely will undermine artistic value of the work, but in industry where millions spent for the creation of the entertainment, outcry of the hundred will never outweight money of the thousands. Only if creator(s) feel like it.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
Yea but creatively it doesn't because you have to be extremely careful.
Hypothetically they could make johnny cage turn out to be a woman who's dressed as a man.lol. What I'm saying is just because they own it doesn't neccessarily mean they know what's best for it. In fact I've read fan stories that are ten times better than anything they have wrote in a while.
So while yes they own the copyrights and all of the other legal terms of "own", They don't technically own it. The fans own it as well, because like I said before if there aren't fans then it's just ideas on paper. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, if fans aren't happy and they decide to drop the franchise all together then guess what no more mortal kombat at all. Just imagine if they release a game that no one buys the game would be shelved faster than a speeding bullet.lol. It all comes down to money at the end of the day so if fans don't buy it then there's a good chance it won't be made again.
Yea but creatively it doesn't because you have to be extremely careful.
Hypothetically they could make johnny cage turn out to be a woman who's dressed as a man.lol. What I'm saying is just because they own it doesn't neccessarily mean they know what's best for it. In fact I've read fan stories that are ten times better than anything they have wrote in a while.
So while yes they own the copyrights and all of the other legal terms of "own", They don't technically own it. The fans own it as well, because like I said before if there aren't fans then it's just ideas on paper. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, if fans aren't happy and they decide to drop the franchise all together then guess what no more mortal kombat at all. Just imagine if they release a game that no one buys the game would be shelved faster than a speeding bullet.lol. It all comes down to money at the end of the day so if fans don't buy it then there's a good chance it won't be made again.
You confuse "fans" and "general gaming public". Even being optimistic, fans doesn't make millions of sales of the game. It's general public that make such wonders. And if game will try to sell itself only for the fans, it most likely fail financially. Such approach works only for the underground titles that exists solely because of the fans. MK is not like that - it's big name that exists us long as it profitable. And like it or not, fans in general has nothing to do with it success or failure.
Creation belong to the creators. Even if no-one buys it, it's still a property of the creator, it's still part of his imagination and he is the only one who really make it alive. Fans could only support what was already created. Rarely they could take part in process, via recomendations, but only author decides what will be in the final product / fiction and what will be excluded. Thus, creation always belong to its creators, they are only people in the power who can change it and even if no one buy it, creation could exist solely because author writes it. That is a nature of fiction and imgaination, not sales or fans.
Scar_Subby Wrote:
But anyway, another thing they should explain.. if Raiden sent a message back in time from Armageddon, why doesn't he just do that again at the end of this game and go: "Hey, you know those messages you just got? This is all you have to do. Just ignore everything else."
But anyway, another thing they should explain.. if Raiden sent a message back in time from Armageddon, why doesn't he just do that again at the end of this game and go: "Hey, you know those messages you just got? This is all you have to do. Just ignore everything else."
It's easy to explain.
What exactly Raiden in the past should've thought if he received such message "Shao Kahn must win"?
That it's obviously a trap from someone? Maybe even Shao Kahn himself.
The only way this message could work was only, if Raiden guessed who was "the one who should won" himself. Otherwise he could've ignore the message or even try to prevent it outcome.
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ColdHearted Wrote:
I can't fathom how people don't understand why "Sub-Zero fans" are generally upset with Cyber Sub-Zero and his involvement in MK9.
He is a completely different character. Clearly, his physical appearance has been changed entirely. He no longer looks anything like the Sub-Zero so many fans grew to love.
And the changes made to the plot of MK9, and the ways in which it altered the original trilogy, begin to completely distort and change the characters story. I've read several people in this topic say things along the lines of "just because he can't have the same story as before, doesn't mean he can't go forward as a cyborg and have an excellent story."
And that's true.
But it won't be Sub-Zero's story. Sub-Zero's story was one of loss. The loss of his brother, the loss of his best friend, the loss of a student. He is a tragic character in the fact that he avoids harm, he avoids pitfalls, but has to watch everyone he loves suffer and fall victim to terrible fates.
His story was one of perseverance, one of humanity overcoming technology. All these things have been lost. With Smoke spared, he does not lose that friend, he does not watch another loved one disappear/die/be mutilated/etc. He suffers the horrible fate. It completely changes the background and story of the character.
And so now, what you're left with is a "Sub-Zero" that looks nothing like the SZ so many people came to be a fan of over the course of nearly two decades. And now, you have a "Sub-Zero" who does not have the same personality, story, obstacles to overcome, losses and tragedies to define him.
It is an entirely new look (and not an original one at that... he's a cyborg... another one), an entirely new history (and not an original one... a combo of smoke and cyrax), and an entirely new personality and path to follow.
At what point is this character now Sub-Zero essentially only in name?
And that's why Sub-Zero fans are largely angry. It doesn't look like Subby, doesn't act like subby, doesn't have the same traits/fears/goals/tragedies as Subby.
It would be like making Sonya a black woman with metal arms.
It would be like making Jade some monstrous, half-Tarkatan freak being that was created, not born, by Shang Tsung in the flesh-pits. Then raised as Kitana's friend/bodyguard/spywhomakessureshedoesntfindoutaboutstuff.
Would Jade fans not be irate? It would be part Jade's story, but with a heavy dose of Mileena mixed in. And then what? She wouldn't look like Jade, wouldn't have the same history or story of Jade, wouldn't have the same traits as jade.
Should people born and raised in Cleveland, OH, die-hard Browns fans, just have suddenly bought a bunch of Baltimore Ravens gear and started rooting for that franchise cuz technically its the same team, just with some dumbass owner who decided to hit the reboot switch and completely change everything about them?
I can't fathom how people don't understand why "Sub-Zero fans" are generally upset with Cyber Sub-Zero and his involvement in MK9.
He is a completely different character. Clearly, his physical appearance has been changed entirely. He no longer looks anything like the Sub-Zero so many fans grew to love.
And the changes made to the plot of MK9, and the ways in which it altered the original trilogy, begin to completely distort and change the characters story. I've read several people in this topic say things along the lines of "just because he can't have the same story as before, doesn't mean he can't go forward as a cyborg and have an excellent story."
And that's true.
But it won't be Sub-Zero's story. Sub-Zero's story was one of loss. The loss of his brother, the loss of his best friend, the loss of a student. He is a tragic character in the fact that he avoids harm, he avoids pitfalls, but has to watch everyone he loves suffer and fall victim to terrible fates.
His story was one of perseverance, one of humanity overcoming technology. All these things have been lost. With Smoke spared, he does not lose that friend, he does not watch another loved one disappear/die/be mutilated/etc. He suffers the horrible fate. It completely changes the background and story of the character.
And so now, what you're left with is a "Sub-Zero" that looks nothing like the SZ so many people came to be a fan of over the course of nearly two decades. And now, you have a "Sub-Zero" who does not have the same personality, story, obstacles to overcome, losses and tragedies to define him.
It is an entirely new look (and not an original one at that... he's a cyborg... another one), an entirely new history (and not an original one... a combo of smoke and cyrax), and an entirely new personality and path to follow.
At what point is this character now Sub-Zero essentially only in name?
And that's why Sub-Zero fans are largely angry. It doesn't look like Subby, doesn't act like subby, doesn't have the same traits/fears/goals/tragedies as Subby.
It would be like making Sonya a black woman with metal arms.
It would be like making Jade some monstrous, half-Tarkatan freak being that was created, not born, by Shang Tsung in the flesh-pits. Then raised as Kitana's friend/bodyguard/spywhomakessureshedoesntfindoutaboutstuff.
Would Jade fans not be irate? It would be part Jade's story, but with a heavy dose of Mileena mixed in. And then what? She wouldn't look like Jade, wouldn't have the same history or story of Jade, wouldn't have the same traits as jade.
Should people born and raised in Cleveland, OH, die-hard Browns fans, just have suddenly bought a bunch of Baltimore Ravens gear and started rooting for that franchise cuz technically its the same team, just with some dumbass owner who decided to hit the reboot switch and completely change everything about them?
Your basing that arguement entirely on appearance. Sub-Zero as a ninja in this game has still the exact same mannerisms, voice and behaviour when he's automated. Nothing about him as a person changes, only his body changes. The only time he does act out of character is when Kabal finds him as he serves Kahn, and immediately after he's knocked out from that fight and re-programmed he goes back to being Kuai Liang. It's not like as a ninja he's all serious, and as a robot he's all outgoing and fun. His personality stays consistent, just not his body.
Your arguement about Jade can also be disputed. It's clearly explained in Mileena's bio that her dichotomy makes her mind unstable, the mix of genetics causes her to go berserk. She's only crazy because it's an unstable mix of DNA. What your suggesting here is that Jade's whole origins, appearance and defined character history be reshaped entirely, something which doesn't even happen to Sub-Zero in this game.
He starts off as he did in the old canon: Serving the Lin Kuei, friends with Smoke, searching for his brother's killer. He goes to the MK2 tournament to kill Shang Tsung, like he did in the old timeline, and he refused to surrender to automation in this timeline as he did in MK3. The only difference is he was ambushed and forced into it. When he's introduced he still behaves the exact same way to the way we last see him in the Cathedral, his personality is intact. As a "real Sub-Zero fan" who's happy to point out the mistakes in this timeline, you could at the very least actually pay attention to the character. His origins are unchanged from the last timeline, the only thing that's different is his outcome, which is generally the case with most of the characters in this timeline. Their fundamentals are the same, just not their outcome.
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I don't know what some of you are even reading.
I never said his personality was inconsistent in this game. I never said this was all about appearance.
I said this version of Sub-Zero is not the same version as the old. Not in appearance, not in story, not in history. Those aren't opinions. They're facts. And they're facts that have a lot of people very angry.
And I'm not one of them. Never said I was. But, I suppose because I'm capable of understanding that a beloved character with a rich history (one of the deepest most fleshed-out stories in the series) was changed drastically, and I have a Sub-Zero avatar, that immediately makes me an angry Sub-Zero fan who doesn't get it.
Let us not allow reality to stand in the way of our delusions.
The most amusing thing in this whole topic (other than cybernetic genitals) is that the opinions of "Sub-Zero fans" are somehow tainted and worthless because they are fans of the character. Meanwhile, others who are known to hate Sub-Zero, or hate "different colored ninjas" or hate that Sub-Zero is a poster boy for the franchise... somehow they don't see themselves as equally biased in the opposite direction.
I'm truly curious as to how much of the Cyber Subby love that exists out there is elation, not with the character itself, but at the fact that arguably the most well-loved character in the series was overhauled. I've heard enough "LOL. Butt hurt?" comments on this website to believe much of the joy of Cyber Subby is simply to stick it to fans of a character that gets more attention and publicity than others.
I understand Sub-Zero's old story. I understand Sub-Zero's new story. I am literate, something I find is surprisingly lacking on a medium (the internet) that requires frequent reading and writing of ideas and opinions. I understand that, moving forward, this Sub-Zero's story could be quite engaging and powerful.
But I also understand it is not, and cannot be, the same story or character of the old timeline. Not all stories of loss are the same. Not all are created equal.
Sub-Zero losing his humanity (or at least temporarily, and losing a human body) is not the same story of losing all those around you who you care about.
There is a distinct difference in the anguish and the journey to overcome a personal tragedy Vs the tragedies of all those you love while you are spared that same fate.
The fact remains, this Sub-Zero does not look like the old, does not have the same history of the old, and does not share the same traits and personal demons.
This is fine, but to not understand how it upsets fans of the original Sub-Zero, the one who has been around for nearly 20 years, is baffling.
Shoot down and laugh at the Jade example, but it's worth questioning. If a Jade or a Sonya or a Kung Lao was changed in story, character traits, and appearance, wouldn't that character's fanbase likely be very upset?
Come to think of it... aren't many Shang Tsung fans livid at the fact that he became a pushover, a whipping boy, and played second fiddle to Quan Chi?
Aren't countless fans on this website irate that Mileena suddenly has yellow eyes for no reason, is dressed sluttier than ever, and went from having a rich story as Kitana's jealous twin sister to "whore that was cooked-up in Shang's basement seven minutes ago"?
Besides, anyone who likes Cyber Sub, good for them. But I'm tired of hearing the "its new and fresh" talk, or the "people can't accept something different" nonsense.
There's nothing creative or new or unique going on here. They took Smoke's fate (not being able to evade capture and being automated) and Cyrax's progression (having his humanity restored by the Special Forces, but being stuck in a robo-body) and combined them into an entirely non-original story for this game, then slapped it on an established character, presumably as much for shock value as anything.
Typically, people want to see something they enjoy (in this case, a character) grow and develop, not have the reset button hit to change everything and wipe out 20 years of history.
I never said his personality was inconsistent in this game. I never said this was all about appearance.
I said this version of Sub-Zero is not the same version as the old. Not in appearance, not in story, not in history. Those aren't opinions. They're facts. And they're facts that have a lot of people very angry.
And I'm not one of them. Never said I was. But, I suppose because I'm capable of understanding that a beloved character with a rich history (one of the deepest most fleshed-out stories in the series) was changed drastically, and I have a Sub-Zero avatar, that immediately makes me an angry Sub-Zero fan who doesn't get it.
Let us not allow reality to stand in the way of our delusions.
The most amusing thing in this whole topic (other than cybernetic genitals) is that the opinions of "Sub-Zero fans" are somehow tainted and worthless because they are fans of the character. Meanwhile, others who are known to hate Sub-Zero, or hate "different colored ninjas" or hate that Sub-Zero is a poster boy for the franchise... somehow they don't see themselves as equally biased in the opposite direction.
I'm truly curious as to how much of the Cyber Subby love that exists out there is elation, not with the character itself, but at the fact that arguably the most well-loved character in the series was overhauled. I've heard enough "LOL. Butt hurt?" comments on this website to believe much of the joy of Cyber Subby is simply to stick it to fans of a character that gets more attention and publicity than others.
I understand Sub-Zero's old story. I understand Sub-Zero's new story. I am literate, something I find is surprisingly lacking on a medium (the internet) that requires frequent reading and writing of ideas and opinions. I understand that, moving forward, this Sub-Zero's story could be quite engaging and powerful.
But I also understand it is not, and cannot be, the same story or character of the old timeline. Not all stories of loss are the same. Not all are created equal.
Sub-Zero losing his humanity (or at least temporarily, and losing a human body) is not the same story of losing all those around you who you care about.
There is a distinct difference in the anguish and the journey to overcome a personal tragedy Vs the tragedies of all those you love while you are spared that same fate.
The fact remains, this Sub-Zero does not look like the old, does not have the same history of the old, and does not share the same traits and personal demons.
This is fine, but to not understand how it upsets fans of the original Sub-Zero, the one who has been around for nearly 20 years, is baffling.
Shoot down and laugh at the Jade example, but it's worth questioning. If a Jade or a Sonya or a Kung Lao was changed in story, character traits, and appearance, wouldn't that character's fanbase likely be very upset?
Come to think of it... aren't many Shang Tsung fans livid at the fact that he became a pushover, a whipping boy, and played second fiddle to Quan Chi?
Aren't countless fans on this website irate that Mileena suddenly has yellow eyes for no reason, is dressed sluttier than ever, and went from having a rich story as Kitana's jealous twin sister to "whore that was cooked-up in Shang's basement seven minutes ago"?
Besides, anyone who likes Cyber Sub, good for them. But I'm tired of hearing the "its new and fresh" talk, or the "people can't accept something different" nonsense.
There's nothing creative or new or unique going on here. They took Smoke's fate (not being able to evade capture and being automated) and Cyrax's progression (having his humanity restored by the Special Forces, but being stuck in a robo-body) and combined them into an entirely non-original story for this game, then slapped it on an established character, presumably as much for shock value as anything.
Typically, people want to see something they enjoy (in this case, a character) grow and develop, not have the reset button hit to change everything and wipe out 20 years of history.
ColdHearted Wrote:
Message
Message
One of the reasons why I like Cysuze is because I like Mortal Kombat overall majorly so it felt natural to me to learn to fight as the underdog online, especially when he is fun to play and Cysuze is a troll of type with the self-destruct Fatality. I concur, insulting another side in this discussion isn't the way to go anywhere, neither is squabbling really.
Why handing a violent death sentence for Cysuze would sound kind of befitting in MK10 is because now that he's already been tortured and trialed in MK9 drastically; the whole life of Kuai Liang begins to feel like black humor. So why not to take full advantage of his life and death then? Surely he would rebirth as any other MK character could. There were even hints of Shao Kahn's return after you defeated Kahn in Story Mode, unlocked Quan Cheese and finished Quan's ladder. I'm dubious about Shao Kahn's return for a while nonetheless.
We all know that Kuai Liang is a zombie cyborg for now and the best thing for a Sub-Zero fan to do right now would be to adjust to the situation, aside moaning of course. The zombie cyborg is all we got from Sub-Zeroes now, but I could bet on the Human Sub-Zero's return in one way or another, sooner or later. That much even I have faith in the MK team.
About Me
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I suppose it's natural to compare the old and new canon.
In the past, Kitana rebelled against Kahn, rescued her mother and liberated her kingdom. In the present, Kang rescued her, her mother killed her and she ended up as Quan Chi's servant. She went from being the independant, courageous adopted daughter/assassin of a ruthless overlord to a freedom fighter and a princess in the last story to a now undead damsel in distress. It's hard not to compare how one character can be portrayed so differently in the space of two different canons.
Am I pissed about her changes? Not really. Not impressed with them at all by any means, but being annoyed wont change the fact that for the very moment she's currently being portrayed to millions of people as a somewhat arrogant, spoiled, and ultimately helpless princess, especially when I've grown up to know her as a fierce, independant powerhouse of a character with huge connections to the overall story.
She's been weakened considerably even in terms of her costume design, but am I mad? No. Because as JR has said, she's NRS's property. They created her, they own her, they have her copyrighted. Ultimately what NRS decide to do with Kitana is entirely their choice. I'd be very naieve to think I'd have the power to change a whole team's vision just from voicing some complaints on the internet.
I've had to come to accept the changes in her origins despite not being too happy with them. To me, who Kitana was has changed big time, and as a result it effected her character substantially. Sub-Zero? Nothing of his origins or personal traits changed.
His involvement in the story mode up until his automation still portrays him as the Sub-Zero we meet back in the old canon. It's the Sub-Zero with the same personality as what we see in Armageddon and MK vs DC, the same principles he has and holds in MKDA: and MK:D, and the same honour and loyalty to his comrades and his clan from MK2. His morals and behaviour don't change after becoming a robot. Nothing bar his body has changed in this game, so to me I think it's purely a cosmetic complaint when I hear people complain about him. I don't see any distinction between human and cyborg Sub-Zero, because to me it's the exact same person.
Ok, yes, he did become the one who was forced into automation like Smoke in the old canon. And yes, he did adopt parts of Cyrax's "re-discover myself and my soul" story from MK4-MK:DA. But who's to say he's limited to that? His story as a cyborg was admittedly uninspired and rushed TO BEGIN WITH, but the beginning doesn't define the end. They probably just wanted to get that section of his story out of the way now so that in the next game his character can evolve past it.
Did it ever occur to people that we might finally see this stupid "Sub-Zero vs Scorpion" crap disolve now that one of them is taking a different route in the franchise? That maybe we might actually see a storyline develop where the characters have the space to breathe and redefine themselves in the upcoming story? I mean we're not even guaranteed Raiden will win against Shinnok in the next game. Nothing is guaranteed. So why shoot the characters down now before the timeline's even gotten started?
Thats why I find it easier to accept Kitana and Mileena's changes. The two of them can only grow from here on in and the same can be said for CSZ. Don't rule him out over one game.
In the past, Kitana rebelled against Kahn, rescued her mother and liberated her kingdom. In the present, Kang rescued her, her mother killed her and she ended up as Quan Chi's servant. She went from being the independant, courageous adopted daughter/assassin of a ruthless overlord to a freedom fighter and a princess in the last story to a now undead damsel in distress. It's hard not to compare how one character can be portrayed so differently in the space of two different canons.
Am I pissed about her changes? Not really. Not impressed with them at all by any means, but being annoyed wont change the fact that for the very moment she's currently being portrayed to millions of people as a somewhat arrogant, spoiled, and ultimately helpless princess, especially when I've grown up to know her as a fierce, independant powerhouse of a character with huge connections to the overall story.
She's been weakened considerably even in terms of her costume design, but am I mad? No. Because as JR has said, she's NRS's property. They created her, they own her, they have her copyrighted. Ultimately what NRS decide to do with Kitana is entirely their choice. I'd be very naieve to think I'd have the power to change a whole team's vision just from voicing some complaints on the internet.
I've had to come to accept the changes in her origins despite not being too happy with them. To me, who Kitana was has changed big time, and as a result it effected her character substantially. Sub-Zero? Nothing of his origins or personal traits changed.
His involvement in the story mode up until his automation still portrays him as the Sub-Zero we meet back in the old canon. It's the Sub-Zero with the same personality as what we see in Armageddon and MK vs DC, the same principles he has and holds in MKDA: and MK:D, and the same honour and loyalty to his comrades and his clan from MK2. His morals and behaviour don't change after becoming a robot. Nothing bar his body has changed in this game, so to me I think it's purely a cosmetic complaint when I hear people complain about him. I don't see any distinction between human and cyborg Sub-Zero, because to me it's the exact same person.
Ok, yes, he did become the one who was forced into automation like Smoke in the old canon. And yes, he did adopt parts of Cyrax's "re-discover myself and my soul" story from MK4-MK:DA. But who's to say he's limited to that? His story as a cyborg was admittedly uninspired and rushed TO BEGIN WITH, but the beginning doesn't define the end. They probably just wanted to get that section of his story out of the way now so that in the next game his character can evolve past it.
Did it ever occur to people that we might finally see this stupid "Sub-Zero vs Scorpion" crap disolve now that one of them is taking a different route in the franchise? That maybe we might actually see a storyline develop where the characters have the space to breathe and redefine themselves in the upcoming story? I mean we're not even guaranteed Raiden will win against Shinnok in the next game. Nothing is guaranteed. So why shoot the characters down now before the timeline's even gotten started?
Thats why I find it easier to accept Kitana and Mileena's changes. The two of them can only grow from here on in and the same can be said for CSZ. Don't rule him out over one game.
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To ShadowPreacher:
I'm not trying to say that I want the direction of Sub-Zero's story to be like it was in the old timeline. Of course Sub-Zero can still fight Sektor and take control of the Lin Kuei. It's just that Sub-Zero in this timeline suffers from being a victim due to be automated and later zombified. None of the does anything to boost his character.
What made Sub-Zero great in the old timeline was that he escaped automation, found a calling by fighting alongside the heroes, and forged his own destiny in the process. Remember that in MK3, Sub-Zero was being hunted down by the Lin Kuei while trying to protect Earth from Shao Kahn's forces. I'm pretty sure that Sub-Zero fought all three cyborgs at some point in MK3's story, and he managed to overcome the odds.
What I'm trying to get at was that although there has been tragedy in Sub-Zero's story, he doesn't fall into being a victim. Instead, he overcomes his obstacles through perseverance. A big part of the problem lies within the fact that the story of this game is not a full-fledged reboot. Like I said, the story of this game is connected to the stories of the other games. It's mainly Raiden trying to change the past. If they had done a full-fledged reboot instead, it might not have been as bad.
Another part of the problem here is the execution of how Sub-Zero became automated. This goes back to what I've been saying about Sub-Zero being a victim in this timeline and the story of the game being centered around an idiot plot.
As for the Special Forces vs. Tekunin bit, that would have been just fine, but you don't seem to understand what Razor and I are getting at. It was the Lin Kuei who decided to automate their assassins into cyborgs. Some agreed with it while others did not. There's meaning behind it, because it's the Lin Kuei we're talking about. So with Sub-Zero's story, he betrays the clan that practically raised him and defeats the assassins that were supposed to be superior to the human counterparts. Of course, while Cyrax was once with the Lin Kuei, he's no protagonist like Sub-Zero was.
You're forgetting that in this timeline, Sub-Zero has become a victim just like Kitana. It's quite true how XiahouDun84 pointed out the new parallel between the two characters. Of course Sub-Zero, granted that he gets resurrected and freed, can fight Sektor and reform the Lin Kuei for good like in the old timeline. The point is, Sub-Zero suffers from being a victim, and he'd still be a cyborg, whether he values his humanity or not. What made him great as a character in terms of his story is that he became stronger as a character by overcoming the odds.
Maybe if Sub-Zero, as a cyborg, had really gone on his journey as a hero like in the old canon or at least some kind of rogue hero-ish type character, that might have been more digestible. However, he gets killed by Sindel by being punched in the face and becomes one of Quan Chi's zombie slaves. If Mortal Kombat's stories continue to center around idiot plots, we're not really going to get the kinds of stories we did in the old timeline.
I'm not trying to say that I want the direction of Sub-Zero's story to be like it was in the old timeline. Of course Sub-Zero can still fight Sektor and take control of the Lin Kuei. It's just that Sub-Zero in this timeline suffers from being a victim due to be automated and later zombified. None of the does anything to boost his character.
What made Sub-Zero great in the old timeline was that he escaped automation, found a calling by fighting alongside the heroes, and forged his own destiny in the process. Remember that in MK3, Sub-Zero was being hunted down by the Lin Kuei while trying to protect Earth from Shao Kahn's forces. I'm pretty sure that Sub-Zero fought all three cyborgs at some point in MK3's story, and he managed to overcome the odds.
What I'm trying to get at was that although there has been tragedy in Sub-Zero's story, he doesn't fall into being a victim. Instead, he overcomes his obstacles through perseverance. A big part of the problem lies within the fact that the story of this game is not a full-fledged reboot. Like I said, the story of this game is connected to the stories of the other games. It's mainly Raiden trying to change the past. If they had done a full-fledged reboot instead, it might not have been as bad.
Another part of the problem here is the execution of how Sub-Zero became automated. This goes back to what I've been saying about Sub-Zero being a victim in this timeline and the story of the game being centered around an idiot plot.
As for the Special Forces vs. Tekunin bit, that would have been just fine, but you don't seem to understand what Razor and I are getting at. It was the Lin Kuei who decided to automate their assassins into cyborgs. Some agreed with it while others did not. There's meaning behind it, because it's the Lin Kuei we're talking about. So with Sub-Zero's story, he betrays the clan that practically raised him and defeats the assassins that were supposed to be superior to the human counterparts. Of course, while Cyrax was once with the Lin Kuei, he's no protagonist like Sub-Zero was.
RedSumac Wrote:
His journey wouldn't suffer that much even if Kuai Liang stays a cyborg. One psychological angle could be easily traded for another one. In example of Sektor and CSZ fighting: evil machine without a heart and mercy versus cyborg, who hasn't abandoned his humanity even if he is not human now. Here is your tragedy, here is your underlying themes, symbolism and psychological stuff. Being human without being one. And I dare to say Kuai Liang in this situation becomes twice as badass as he was in the old canon.
His journey wouldn't suffer that much even if Kuai Liang stays a cyborg. One psychological angle could be easily traded for another one. In example of Sektor and CSZ fighting: evil machine without a heart and mercy versus cyborg, who hasn't abandoned his humanity even if he is not human now. Here is your tragedy, here is your underlying themes, symbolism and psychological stuff. Being human without being one. And I dare to say Kuai Liang in this situation becomes twice as badass as he was in the old canon.
You're forgetting that in this timeline, Sub-Zero has become a victim just like Kitana. It's quite true how XiahouDun84 pointed out the new parallel between the two characters. Of course Sub-Zero, granted that he gets resurrected and freed, can fight Sektor and reform the Lin Kuei for good like in the old timeline. The point is, Sub-Zero suffers from being a victim, and he'd still be a cyborg, whether he values his humanity or not. What made him great as a character in terms of his story is that he became stronger as a character by overcoming the odds.
Maybe if Sub-Zero, as a cyborg, had really gone on his journey as a hero like in the old canon or at least some kind of rogue hero-ish type character, that might have been more digestible. However, he gets killed by Sindel by being punched in the face and becomes one of Quan Chi's zombie slaves. If Mortal Kombat's stories continue to center around idiot plots, we're not really going to get the kinds of stories we did in the old timeline.
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Want to adress a few things
@Coldhearted
I just want to say I agree with you on pretty much everything. Well thought out post and well explained
@ RedSumac
I wanted to adress a few things
1. We are talking on a public forum were we use slang such as lol. I write essays, papers, etc. in which I make an effort and make good grades in English. So, when we use slang and other things on here to talk to one another I think we should avoid talking about someone's english. I really think you just have a disdain for me and wanted to insult me, but that's neither here nor there.
2. On Sub-Zero's popularity over Cyber Subz on the official site. There is no voting on that site. That is based on gameplay statistics overall and who chooses the character most online. Sub-Zero blows Cyber Sub-Zero out of the water based on those statistics. Read that again. It's based on how often a certain character is played. Scorpion is first, obviously. Raiden is second, and I'm sorry Sub-Zero is third. He is more popular than cyber subz. There is no voting process to it.
3.On the argument that Smoke should still be weaker.
Your argument would imply that these characters are actually in a different universe all together. Just because Smoke's moveset changed in the game doesn't mean that storywise he didn't have them back then. If Raiden sent a message back in time Smoke would still be weaker than Sub-Zero. Characters in a story don't know about gameplay statistics. So just because Smoke's moveset changed in our time doesn't mean that back then he was any stronger. I don't know if you will understand exactly what I'm trying to say. The point is your argument would only work if Raiden sent a message back in time to an alternate universe. Which with all of the retcons that he didn't even change that could be possible. However, if he sent a message back in time, as in the same timeline where Sub-Zero and Smoke fought Sektor and Cyrax, then no Smoke would not be stronger than Sub-Zero.
@Coldhearted
I just want to say I agree with you on pretty much everything. Well thought out post and well explained
@ RedSumac
I wanted to adress a few things
1. We are talking on a public forum were we use slang such as lol. I write essays, papers, etc. in which I make an effort and make good grades in English. So, when we use slang and other things on here to talk to one another I think we should avoid talking about someone's english. I really think you just have a disdain for me and wanted to insult me, but that's neither here nor there.
2. On Sub-Zero's popularity over Cyber Subz on the official site. There is no voting on that site. That is based on gameplay statistics overall and who chooses the character most online. Sub-Zero blows Cyber Sub-Zero out of the water based on those statistics. Read that again. It's based on how often a certain character is played. Scorpion is first, obviously. Raiden is second, and I'm sorry Sub-Zero is third. He is more popular than cyber subz. There is no voting process to it.
3.On the argument that Smoke should still be weaker.
Your argument would imply that these characters are actually in a different universe all together. Just because Smoke's moveset changed in the game doesn't mean that storywise he didn't have them back then. If Raiden sent a message back in time Smoke would still be weaker than Sub-Zero. Characters in a story don't know about gameplay statistics. So just because Smoke's moveset changed in our time doesn't mean that back then he was any stronger. I don't know if you will understand exactly what I'm trying to say. The point is your argument would only work if Raiden sent a message back in time to an alternate universe. Which with all of the retcons that he didn't even change that could be possible. However, if he sent a message back in time, as in the same timeline where Sub-Zero and Smoke fought Sektor and Cyrax, then no Smoke would not be stronger than Sub-Zero.
About Me
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It's gettin hot in herre...
I guess we weren't clear enough, drop it. I see and make plenty of spelling and grammer errors when posting on a forum, I have a fairly good grasp of the English language and grammer, you don't see me parading around telling people how to speak correctly and it's clearly being done to be malicious.
Discuss the topic, this is not an English class, this is about CSZ, we all know what people mean, even if they make minor errors, let's not be disingenous.
Discuss the topic, if you can't be mature, stay out of the discussion, it's not hard.
And Redsurmac, the site's statistics are from PLAY time, not from who voted, the results are lifted from console play, so those results are sound.
Discuss the topic, this is not an English class, this is about CSZ, we all know what people mean, even if they make minor errors, let's not be disingenous.
Discuss the topic, if you can't be mature, stay out of the discussion, it's not hard.
And Redsurmac, the site's statistics are from PLAY time, not from who voted, the results are lifted from console play, so those results are sound.
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RedSumac Wrote:
I'll try to explain some of them:
2) Raiden couldn't save Sub-Zero because it meant direct conflict with Shao Kahn and his minions and Shinnok only knows what penalty from Shao Kahn for breaking the rules of the tournament and attacking his allies, who Lin Kueai was already at that moment.
5) I think NRS writers doesn't like Shang Tsung all that much. Or at least they like Quan Chi much more than him.
6) I think Raiden could heal simple wounds, but he can't resurect almost dead people like Liu Kang or heal soul / life energy drain (Kitana).
Jaded-Raven Wrote:
I agree that there are indeed major plotholes and retcons in this storyline that are yet to be explained. Many of them I disagree with, others I simply wish to have explained. Either way, I accept the story for what it is. I defend it, because in general, I like the storyline, poor writing or not.
The things I would like to have explained by NRS:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
I agree that there are indeed major plotholes and retcons in this storyline that are yet to be explained. Many of them I disagree with, others I simply wish to have explained. Either way, I accept the story for what it is. I defend it, because in general, I like the storyline, poor writing or not.
The things I would like to have explained by NRS:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
I'll try to explain some of them:
2) Raiden couldn't save Sub-Zero because it meant direct conflict with Shao Kahn and his minions and Shinnok only knows what penalty from Shao Kahn for breaking the rules of the tournament and attacking his allies, who Lin Kueai was already at that moment.
5) I think NRS writers doesn't like Shang Tsung all that much. Or at least they like Quan Chi much more than him.
6) I think Raiden could heal simple wounds, but he can't resurect almost dead people like Liu Kang or heal soul / life energy drain (Kitana).
It's cute that you try to explain, but in the end, you don't know for sure. I would like the explanations coming from the source, NRS, because only they know the REAL explanations.
Thanks for trying anyways. ^^
About Me
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And it's "cute" that you think NRS actually has legitimate explanations for any of it. The writing and story is a train wreck. They know less about the story than most fans do. It's as simple as that.
I know you're going to tell me to "prove it", but I don't have to. They've proven it themselves, time and time again.
I know you're going to tell me to "prove it", but I don't have to. They've proven it themselves, time and time again.
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Ninja_Mime Wrote:
And it's "cute" that you think NRS actually has legitimate explanations for any of it. The writing and story is a train wreck. They know less about the story than most fans do. It's as simple as that.
I know you're going to tell me to "prove it", but I don't have to. They've proven it themselves, time and time again.
And it's "cute" that you think NRS actually has legitimate explanations for any of it. The writing and story is a train wreck. They know less about the story than most fans do. It's as simple as that.
I know you're going to tell me to "prove it", but I don't have to. They've proven it themselves, time and time again.
Someone has his panties in a twist. Why the undermining comment and the attitude?
About Me
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Just how I am. It's not like your comment to RedSumac was much different.
To answer your question(s), I imagine it would go something like this:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
Well y'know, we really wanted to make this sort of a reimagining or a reboot of sorts, y'know, time travel, that sort of thing. So some things just sort of uh, change.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
Uh, yeah in the original series, y'know Smoke had turned into this sort of cybernetic ninja, I think that was back in MK3, but in this game he's actually back to being, y'know, the classic human ninja. So with this game we wanted to really do some drastic changes, sort of like a Back to the Future type thing. So we made Sub-Zero the robot instead.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
He used the soulnado.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
We ran out of time.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
To answer your question(s), I imagine it would go something like this:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
Well y'know, we really wanted to make this sort of a reimagining or a reboot of sorts, y'know, time travel, that sort of thing. So some things just sort of uh, change.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
Uh, yeah in the original series, y'know Smoke had turned into this sort of cybernetic ninja, I think that was back in MK3, but in this game he's actually back to being, y'know, the classic human ninja. So with this game we wanted to really do some drastic changes, sort of like a Back to the Future type thing. So we made Sub-Zero the robot instead.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
He used the soulnado.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
We ran out of time.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
Ninja_Mime Wrote:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
Well y'know, we really wanted to make this sort of a reimagining or a reboot of sorts, y'know, time travel, that sort of thing. So some things just sort of uh, change.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
Uh, yeah in the original series, y'know Smoke had turned into this sort of cybernetic ninja, I think that was back in MK3, but in this game he's actually back to being, y'know, the classic human ninja. So with this game we wanted to really do some drastic changes, sort of like a Back to the Future type thing. So we made Sub-Zero the robot instead.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
He used the soulnado.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
We ran out of time.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
Well y'know, we really wanted to make this sort of a reimagining or a reboot of sorts, y'know, time travel, that sort of thing. So some things just sort of uh, change.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
Uh, yeah in the original series, y'know Smoke had turned into this sort of cybernetic ninja, I think that was back in MK3, but in this game he's actually back to being, y'know, the classic human ninja. So with this game we wanted to really do some drastic changes, sort of like a Back to the Future type thing. So we made Sub-Zero the robot instead.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
He used the soulnado.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
We ran out of time.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
Ed,is that you!?
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Ninja_Mime Wrote:
Just how I am. It's not like your comment to RedSumac was much different.
To answer your question(s), I imagine it would go something like this:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
Well y'know, we really wanted to make this sort of a reimagining or a reboot of sorts, y'know, time travel, that sort of thing. So some things just sort of uh, change.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
Uh, yeah in the original series, y'know Smoke had turned into this sort of cybernetic ninja, I think that was back in MK3, but in this game he's actually back to being, y'know, the classic human ninja. So with this game we wanted to really do some drastic changes, sort of like a Back to the Future type thing. So we made Sub-Zero the robot instead.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
He used the soulnado.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
We ran out of time.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
Just how I am. It's not like your comment to RedSumac was much different.
To answer your question(s), I imagine it would go something like this:
1) Why it was retconned that Kitana meeting Mileena for the first time was during the Outworld tournament - and the way Kitana found out about her Edenian heritage.
Well y'know, we really wanted to make this sort of a reimagining or a reboot of sorts, y'know, time travel, that sort of thing. So some things just sort of uh, change.
2) Why Raiden chose to rescue Smoke and not Sub-Zero when the Lin Kuei attempts kidnapping them.
Uh, yeah in the original series, y'know Smoke had turned into this sort of cybernetic ninja, I think that was back in MK3, but in this game he's actually back to being, y'know, the classic human ninja. So with this game we wanted to really do some drastic changes, sort of like a Back to the Future type thing. So we made Sub-Zero the robot instead.
3) How Quan Chi was able to claim the souls of the fallen warriors.
He used the soulnado.
4) Why it was retconned that Sheeva was no longer Sindel's bodyguard.
We ran out of time.
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
What? I merely pointed out that I would want NRS to answer such questions, not him, though it was sweet of him to give it a try. And then you decided to do a bitch roll, for some reason. It was rather uncalled for.
I don't care about YOUR answers to the questions either, but I'm sure as hell not going to tell you politely.
About Me
0
Ninja_Mime Wrote:
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
5) Why Quan Chi had so much spotlight and was given most of Shang Tsung's former role.
Well with the new story mode it really allowed us to go more in depth than ever before, and this is really the most sophisticated presentation of a story mode in any fighting game.
6) Why Raiden was able to heal Jax, but not Liu Kang, or for that matter, Kitana.
Find out in the next game!
Lol!
You should be thankful.
At least they do not handle the material the way Paul W Anderson did with Resident Evil, and that does not even have the saving grace of being a video game, but a full blown out movie.
I hate the Resident Evil movie franchise with inextinguishable passion. At least NRS isn't laughing in their palms just to see how much money they can churn out of you while giving a larger fuck you to the fanbase step by step with ech installment.
NRS legitimately tried with abridging and compacting their story into one game, but you have to face the fact that the coherence and constitution of it is only fluff.
At least they do not handle the material the way Paul W Anderson did with Resident Evil, and that does not even have the saving grace of being a video game, but a full blown out movie.
I hate the Resident Evil movie franchise with inextinguishable passion. At least NRS isn't laughing in their palms just to see how much money they can churn out of you while giving a larger fuck you to the fanbase step by step with ech installment.
NRS legitimately tried with abridging and compacting their story into one game, but you have to face the fact that the coherence and constitution of it is only fluff.
The thing is... RedSumac has been crying for two hours straight now, and he wants you to apoligize, J'Ra. As for Ninja's respond message, I think it was wonderful. It is great illusion for those who seek for something they are unlikely to get because of the boredom that pulls you back from sending an actual (bottle) letter to NetherRealm Studios located in Chicago that would relieve you from all your Mortal Kombat pains.
The message actually reminded me heavily of an Australian user from Midway Boards who was also active there back then, AGENT47, who had a habit of responding in all those n00b topics that desired for answers from the developers. He often succeeded with the fooling part because Midway Boards was, after all, the official forum of Midway Games (and the MK team) back then. Be that as it may, RedSumac dropped a teardrop.
The message actually reminded me heavily of an Australian user from Midway Boards who was also active there back then, AGENT47, who had a habit of responding in all those n00b topics that desired for answers from the developers. He often succeeded with the fooling part because Midway Boards was, after all, the official forum of Midway Games (and the MK team) back then. Be that as it may, RedSumac dropped a teardrop.
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