Sounds like he either didn't quite understand the question or doesn't understand what happened in MK9 any more than we do, lol.

But yeah, we've gone over the whole "Kahn selling souls he didn't even have to Quan Chi" thing not making sense about a million times and it's never gonna make sense so I'm not even trying anymore. I'm just sayin' it definitely wouldn't have happened if the "chosen ones with protected souls" thing had happened in this game, but it didn't because the Soulnado was stopped by force instead, so here we are.

As indicated by the way Jax and Kitana talked, they will most likely not be getting any serious development next game and neither will Jade, Stryker or any of the other dead heroes.


They're behaving like zombies, "as you command my master" and stuff like that. They're probably going to be acting like how they did with Onaga, simply enforcers without substance that some of Quan Chi's other servants might have.

The dead heroes are not like Noob Saibot and Sareena, who have their relative independence of thought and normal brain functioning, they're going to most likely be simply speaking to mess with Johnny, Raiden, and Sonya's heads at Quan Chi's insistence and providing oppoents for them.


Just my opinion, but they didn't kill all of them to give them development, they killed all of them for other characters to take the spotlight.

And if they stick to character chapters, playing as only the heroes, it's even more likely they won't be getting development, unless they get ressurected mid way through story mode.

This is kinda what I'm expecting.

Either that or Quan is going to transform and/or corrupt them in various ways, like he did Scorpion and Noob, in order to make them more useful soldiers, offscreen between 9 and 10. He didn't really have time to make anything more than zombies out of them when we see them in Hell in 9, he'd only just gotten ahold of their souls.

I can already predict the moment where one of the good guys tries to convert one of the zombies back to the good side from the wild side, referring to feelings and past memories. Yes, it would be horrific to see such an emotive scene in Mortal Kombat but Ed Boon, he sure knows how to surprise us!

Would you like to eat this, Tigger?

I can't imagine they'll change the characters to look completely different. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the next game opens with only Raiden standing against Shinnok's army of undead heroes and some new characters have to go back to time to stop Raiden from changing things in the first place.

Razor, don't give NRS any ideas. In my huge criticism of this move in my review, I really wish I knew what Vogel was thinking when he saw that part.

It'll never happen.

Y'know how I know? Because I've already said several times that this is what the plot would HAVE to be to get me to buy MK10 and clearly Boon no longer wants my money.

Well, he said something about the whole time travel plot thing which I took as a possible hint.

And once again - how much Noob Saibot is Bi Han?
We don't know answer for that question.


I am third this. (sic?)


It's only logical for Cyber Sub-Zero to have moves that human Sub-Zero had. He is new version of pre-existing character, he is not new character all together. He is the same person for crying outloud - it is natural for him to have his trademark attacks even after cybernitization. It is not stealing by any means.


Exactly. I tried to say that so many times, but most of the time I've hreard response "no he can't - it wouldn't be so psychological and meaningful as in the old timeline". How so, I wonder.


If anything they could had platonic feelings for each other. And even if there was love between them (which never ever was stated), nothing could stop Cyber Sub-Zero to care about Sareena even if they couldn't have sex. Just because he is a cyborg that doesn't mean that he should turn his back on her. If anything THAT would be highly illogical, given Kuai Liang personality.


And he desperately should want exactly your money because...?

That Shao Kahn thing makes me think he's on some god-modding shit, or something.

It shall never be explained, nor should that ridiculous idea have been created.

Unless it involves the MK tournament and him having some control over Earthrealm since he won 9 times. then in Outworld since it's his turf, and him merging the realms(or whatever was going on) did something.

But it still sounds stupid.

Cyber Sub-Zero isn't completely bad, imo. He does have a nice design, and his fighting stance is better than Sub-Zero's (even though that's a minor quibble in itself). The execution of Cyber Sub-Zero and the overall treatment of Sub-Zero's character in this game was pretty bad. Perhaps if the story (and execution thereof) were done differently and much better, Cyber Sub-Zero could have actually been passable. However, Cyber Sub-Zero is hardly the biggest problem with this game.

What some defenders of the new story still don't understand is that people like me aren't against change itself. The problems lie within the particular changes themselves and their execution. People are entitled to their opinions, and if you're someone that likes the overall story direction of the new game, that's fair enough.

However, I still stand by my view that the story itself is a disaster. Why? It falls apart due to two main reasons. The first reason is that the story is centered around an Idiot Plot, a reasoning that cannot be argued against. If you can't comprehend that the story of this game is centered around an idiot plot, then no wonder these latest MK games have had such lousy plots.

Some want to bring up all of the problems of the stories in the old timeline, but it's likely that some of these people don't even know what those problems actually are. Also, if we look at the story of the new game, it has its share of problems. It's not as solid and coherent as some might see it.

The second main reason is that in NRS' attempt to re-introduce the series and its characters by going back to the MK1-MK3 era, they connect the story of this game to MK: Armageddon's story instead of doing a full-fledged reboot. By doing a time-travel story using a plot device created in and specifically designed for the purposes of this game, NRS instead developed a quasi-reboot that Flanderized the first three MKs.

I see that some who defend the story of this game feel that it gives a new and refreshing take on the series, because it changes things up. I have to argue that Tancharoen's work actually does a much better job. Even though I'm still a fan of MK and still care for its story and characters, I'm looking forward to Tancharoen's movie for the story instead of the future MK games.

The funny thing about this series is that despite the fact its gameplay hasn't had the depth of other fighters, its mythology has great potential, a potential that Tancharoen actually touched on. Even Vogel had tapped into some of that great potential back in MK: Deadly Alliance. Now look at what's happening? We're getting stories centered around idiot plots, dimensions removed from certain characters, and an overall mediocrity that could have been avoided.

I'd still love to have it so that MK games have both good gameplay and stories instead of one, the other, or neither. The truth is, with the directions being taken, I don't see things getting any better for MK's story and characters. We could be getting something truly interesting, dynamic, and epic yet that's not going to happen. It's really a shame.

I want to say this without getting flamed but I figure it'll happen anyway so just let em roll.

Let's remove the story aspect all together and honestly just go off of appearance. Yea that's shallow, but it's how the world works sometimes deal with it.

If Kung Lao, Kitana, Sonya, Liu Kang, Johnny Cage, hell any character. Whoever just pick your favorite character. Now imagine them becoming a cyborg and having people tell you that's how it's going to be going forward. Are you really going to be okay with that?

Now add a story aspect and they give it a semi-logical reason. It's still not much better is it? Because it's not that character you know and love esentially because the human aspect of that character is all but ripped away.

Even through Sub-Zero's many iterations, and I mean many he has retained humanity in that we could see he was a human. Hell, the Deception armor was negatively received, but I liked it because I felt it made sense. We know that there is partial life inside of him. However, he's not anything remotely able to relate to now because he's a robot.

Sub-Zero becoming Cyber also just doesn't make sense to me, and I guess the main reason is because Smoke is weaker than him. If Sektor and Cyrax are going after someone it would be much more likely for them to catch Smoke than it would be to catch Sub-Zero for me, and given Sub-Zero's attitude he would be much more likely to just kill himself than be taken. In the old timeline they fought together, which is another plot that was just idiotically retconned out of existence here. Instead we watch Smoke on the sidelines and Raiden holds him back, so all of the people who diss Sub-Zero for not caring about Smoke, well at least he fought with Smoke to give him a chance. Smoke didn't even give him that.

Now you can also play this card Cyber Sub-Zero plays completely different from what Sub-Zero plays as. Honestly I don't like it either. I've played it and I don't like it. I have grown to know Sub-Zero as a slower more defense oriented fighter and Sub-Zero is that. Cyber Sub-Zero isn't.

So now Cyber Sub-Zero not only looks different, and fights differently but he was also not even given a chance to fight for what is righfully his in his humanity whereas in the old continuity that's exactly what saved him he was stronger and ended up escaping the Lin Kuei because of his humanity. It was just bad shit on NRS part I'm sorry. Poorly poorly executed. You can like cyber subz fine, but you can't sit and act like the way he was introduced was not going to cause people to be pissed off. It was a bad decision and that's clearly visible. It all goes back to humanity at the end of the day I guess when you look at this argument as well. In a way Sub-Zero's character represented humanity in this arch of the story and they tore that out for a shock that pissed many people off.

Also to people saying Cyber Subz is more than welcome now, look at his popularity on the official website especially compared to human subz and you will see who is more favored numbers don't lie. Whether he is liked or not isn't the issue really. It all comes down to is he liked more than human sub-zero and he clearly is not.

@ PNF I agree, I'm for certain they're not going to take any major liberties with their appearence next game, they might get new costumes and demonic eyes, but other than that they'll look like their old selves.



That's true, but I don't see them undergoing a radical transformation, I mean they'll probably look demonic and possessed, but the changes Noob and Scorpion underwent seem too radical for them to go through too, they want to keep them all as recognizable as possible.

It's not out of the question for them to do that, but I'm thinking it's going to be like the Onaga scenario all over again in terms of their behavior and appearence.



lol Tigger, how glorious. This makes me miss Winnie the Pooh immensely.

Anywho, I hope they handle it right, I could see Sonya trying to reason with Jax being almost heartbreaking as he moves in for the kill and Sonya doesn't have the nerve to take him down, I think it would be beneficial to see Sonya having such an emotional struggle. They can definitely turn this into a very engaging conflict between their desire to protect earth and their apprehension against fighting those they care for, that they fought wars together with and became close allies.





I suspect nobody would support any of their favorites becoming cyborgs, none of the fans have seriously advocated it. I just think it's absurd to be honest. I'd hate to see Cyber Sonya, Liu Kang, Sheeva, Jade, Stryker, Rain etc in anything other than funny fan fiction.



As for the statistics, nobody can really argue about that because as far as we all know, it's an objective measurement of gameplay usage.

@ Espio

Just saying though i think you're seein it from a joke perspective. Imagine this though.

Sonya, Jax, or Stryker would all be logical. Say that the storymode had them doing intel or something on the Lin Kuei and Sektor sensed them and instead decided to turn one of them into the cyborg.

It would make sense, but no one would like it. Which is why I'm still finding it hard why people don't understand exactly where Sub-Zero fans are coming from. Especially since a human Sub-Zero has been around for every game since 1 and now there is no human Sub-Zero.

Also it wouldn't make sense for Noob to become Sub-Zero again people. Let's get past that notion already. Kuai Liang still has the name Sub-Zero regardless of him being a cyborg so he can't take the name if it's already taken. I still don't understand why people don't think he's going to end up in chaosrealm. His ending pretty much explains it honestly and how would chaosrealm come into play otherwise? It would give a better reason for Chaosrealm to be involved just like Johnny being sent to Seido. They are giving these realms meaning now and honestly a team up of Noob and Havik would be awesome considering Havik was just a design of Noob at one time.

I'm on the bandwagon that thinks this isn't going to be a permanent change though. If people think this crap is backlash, then imagine it if it stays that way.

Also, on the statistics I woold say that Sub-Zero's are probably pretty accurate and also that says a lot about his popularity considering many complain of him being slow and hard to use when anyone can pick up Smoke, Ermac, Noob, Raiden, or Scorpion and just spam to win a match. Sub-Zero takes a little thought to use, so for him to be number 3 even with a lack of teleport and speed is amazing honestly. Considering half the scrubs who like to pick up and play this game anyway.

Well yes of course, there could be a logical reason for them becoming Cyber, my comment was a roundabout way of concurring with the point you were making SS.


I want Havik and Noob to collaborate though, Havik is one of my favorite characters, he came at a bad time, that was his only fault, but at least now he can shake things up and keep the entire roster on its toes, villians and heroes alike. The nature of Havik is just amazing, neither good nor evil, simply chaotic. I have a fondness for characters that teter in the grey areas of what is considered acceptable conduct.

Personally i found it insulting to make Subby a cyborg, it just screams of lazy story design. There really was no need to have anyone be a cyborg other then Sektor and Cyrax. There was a lot of things wrong with the story, but im hoping mk10 will build on something more solid.


Yes i agree im being biased, but i prefer Human Sub-zero anyday. And everyone knows that he will return as human, you cannot just go changing such a long standing character so drastically, especially the lazy way they did.


oh and in before jadedraven fruit fairy comes in to start bickering " no cyber subs is better ".

Perhaps in the future, you should learn to choose your words better. If you can't disagree with people in a mature manner, perhaps you shouldn't comment at all. The flaming and homophobic remarks are not welcomed, cut that out now.

hey it is what it is

XD
You're hilarious.

People say Sek..and Cy should've been the only cyborgs, and I will never agree with that. Smoke was the one who made the whole automation angle more interesting.

*Perfect change.*

Smoke is the wild card but I think we are satisfied with the way he is now. Back to Cysuze - it would be fantastic to see Kuai Liang obtaining the same destiny as did Eric Matthews in SAW IV. For the whole time in Saw IV you hoped for the good cop's survival who's seen in past movies, but in the end of it: shit hits the fan and Eric's head explodes into pieces by two iceblocks after the timer runs out and that was it. Comedy.
So Sub-Zero would be held captive for the whole time of MK10, but in the end of the story, when Raiden reliefs of winning one hardship, he remembers that Sub-Zero is still there locked, slowly beginning to sink into lava for instance. I believe that this wouldn't exactly please the Sub-Zero fans but it surely would be another drama effect without killing a handful of characters. Sub-Zero would also be playable in the game as he'd be in it. In its sequel we would see either the father Sub-Zero or Bi-Han taking Kuai Liang's role. Kuai would continue as a rageous ghost.
Viser, I hope you are wiser now.

Although Cyber Sub-Zero may feel faster to at least some people, Sub-Zero himself isn't really slow. He has seemingly more powerful attacks, but that doesn't mean that he is nor should be "slower". And besides, he has that great 2, 2 string that comes out quickly.

About Sub-Zero and Smoke, the point of Smoke's tragedy back in MK3 was that he was simply the unlucky one and hence got automated into a cyborg. Sub-Zero finds himself fighting alongside the heroes to save their world, and he finds his calling.

Being automated into a cyborg is a switcheroo that doesn't do anything particularly good for either character. Although Smoke was on his way to becoming one of Earth's heroes, guess what? Both Smoke AND Sub-Zero get killed by Sindel and turned into one of Quan Chi's zombie slaves. The great thing about Sub-Zero's story in the old timeline was that he retained his humanity and forged his own path, becoming the great hero we know him as. However, by being turned into a cyborg and later into a zombie cyborg, he gets victimized, TWICE in one game!

So for those that ask why Sub-Zero can't more or less do the kinds of things he did in the old timeline as a cyborg, it has to do with the journey of the character and what he's all about. When we get to MK: Deadly Alliance, we learned that Sub-Zero and Sektor fought for control of the Lin Kuei. Sektor would have forged the clan in his image and would have turned the Lin Kuei into cyborgs. However, Sub-Zero was victorious and shaped the clan into a force for good. You don't get those great dynamics by having both Sub-Zero AND Sektor as cyborgs.

Um, no. Sub-Zero could still fight Sektor to lead the clan and reform them as force for good as a cyborg, obviously without converting them all as Sektor would.

This is also assuming that everyone playing WANTS the Lin Kuei to be good guys, which I for one don't. I don't mind Sub-Zero turning anti-hero, but I like my bastards to be bastards and I prefer the Lin Kuei to be evil. They're great bad guys no matter how you slice it.

And I ask again...since Razor seems so unwilling to answer me...exactly what "heroics" did Zero and his reformed clan perform in that game? Did they still put out hits, only on "bad guys"? Bad according to who, their employer of the day? Far as I can tell they just kinda hung out in their new temple in the arctic. If they did anything else, the game itself never told about it. Great dynamics indeed.

He didn't say Sub-Zero couldn't fight Sektor. He said the symbolism and thematic meaning are lost now because it's machinery vs. machinery instead of humanity vs. machinery. Humanity vs. machinery is a better story. Y'know, like the folk hero John Henry beating the steam-hammer? If that story had been about two inventors trying to prove which of their inventions could build a railroad faster, instead of a story about a human worker trying to prove he was better than a machine that was built to take away his job, who would give a fuck?
Sub-Zero fighting Sektor is more interesting rivalry when it's about a human proving that he's a better fighter than someone who needed to cheat by improving their body with artificial enhancements. To get that theme now, it'd have to be Smoke fighting the cyborgs instead, since he's the one who didn't get automated. The problem with that is, now they've revealed Smoke isn't a human at all, he's actually a demon. Also, he's currently fucking dead.



I'm curious why you can't read Deadly Alliance bios and Konquest texts for yourself since you want to know things so badly and they're all easily found at MKWarehouse and the Kombat Pavillion, but fair enough, I will humor this one easy question...

They weren't for hire anymore, they were to defend against villains and invasions from other realms, like the White Lotus Society do. Now...I don't know if you noticed this, I bet it hadn't actually occurred to you...but nobody even attacked Earth during DA and Deception, did they?
That's why Sub-Zero and Frost were the only members doing any heroics on-screen (I use the word "heroics" VERY loosely in Frost's case since she doesn't seem to do anything the whole game except wait for an opportunity to betray Sub-Zero). They were recruited by Raiden for a field trip to Outworld, because Raiden wanted to be proactive for once and stop Shang and Quan BEFORE they could finish building their army and go after other realms. The rest of the members of the Lin Kuei stayed at the base and kept training (most of the clan was new recruits because the Old Lin Kuei was almost completely disbanded during MK4).
And of course during Armageddon we definitely see the whole clan trying to fight off an invasion by the Brotherhood of the Shadow - albeit admittedly, the Brotherhood came to them and attacked their HQ, so it was more like self-defense.
But we've never seen the White Lotus appear or do anything as a group at all period, have we? We've only seen Liu, Kung, and Kai. In MK, almost ALL groups and clans largely exist off-screen with only a few select members being seen to take action.

You've made a small flaw here Razor. You assume that the symbolism and thematic meaning is all that important to everybody to begin with. We get it, being a cyborg sucks, keeping your humanity is good. It doesn't need to be so heavy-handed as that where the "message" is taking precedence over 2 guys literally fighting to be head ninja. And if it really is...you can always have Smoke do it. This also all makes the rather huge assumption that the new timeline is supposed to exactly follow the plots of DA and other future games to begin with.

Let me ask you this. Since the old timeline was building towards a Special Forces/Tekunin showdown, would it somehow lose "meaning" for you if Cyrax and Sektor met and squared off? I mean here's a guy who regained his humanity fighting an evil asshole who loves being a cyborg...just like Sub-Zero in MK9...and who knows better than anyone how awful it was to undergo the cyber-process against his will. I have a feeling if Cyrax vs Sektor went down in a hypothetical MK9 that followed Armageddon, you guys would be calling it a pinnacle of modern fiction.

As far as defending Earth from other realms like the White Lotus....we already have a White Lotus. Do we really need 1 group in MK to start mimicing another group? Is this really such good story-telling to you?

And you've actually made one of my major points for me: all the Lin Kuei's actions for good take place OFF-screen. We never so much as see, let alone particiapate in any of it during the games. One of the most major points of actual good story-telling is SHOW, don't TELL. And yet, you choose to be up in arms because MK9's story casts doubt on future plot actions that you extrapolated from DA's Konquest and endings.

Think about it. This major thematic battle between Sub-Zero and Sektor that happened "in" Deadly Alliance never actually happens in the game at all. In fact, one of the participants isn't even in the game!! (Yes, I'm aware Sektor was in TE. I meant in the non-hand held version which is was what 99% of people actually played.) It cracks me up to see people hang on so tightly to this stuff, and hating on MK9 for *possibly* precluding this stuff from happening again in *future* MK games.