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Gameplay & Matchmaking

Discussing MK Gameplay, Strategies, Tournaments and Online Matchmaking.
Page of 33

HDTranPosted: 08/20/2004 01:37 PMStatus ::


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MK Gameplay Primer + MKDA's & MKD's failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Frame Advantage/Disadvantage explained.

Huy Tran's Primer on MK Gameplay

Here's MKDA 101.

This is for all the MK gamers out there who want to hear objectively what all of us have been trying to explain for so long, I've used this in another thread to point out to a few individuals and decided not to let it go to waste and improve on it a tad. FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT WISH TO UNDERSTAND THE FIGHTING ENGINE OR DISCUSS IT, PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW. MINI-GAMES, STORIES, CHARACTERS, FATALITIES, DEATH TRAPS, ETC. CAN BE LEFT TO BE HANDLED BY OTHER THREADS. If you guys really want to understand the game, this post will explain the main gripes. For everyone else, read this if you want to understand the flaws of MK as well as dominate the competition. To understand a game's flaws is to create a better sequel. Every other fighting community talks about improving the current incarnation out, only on the MK Boards is looking at the fighting system and admitting to it's faults is seen as a bad and horrible thing for "elitists" and "haters". Everyone who points out gameplay problems has one thing in mind, to make one of their favorite games (either in childhood or now) to become better. We all want MK to become better and we don't want MK to lose what MK is in the process, but in that process, we must admit what MK is lacking. People demand better costumes, returning characters, fatalities, etc. and other fluff in other threads, but it's about time the gameplay crowd wants more.

Only one strat for every character, only a few characters dominating everyone else in MKDA. I could easily break down every character in MKDA with a simple mixup that is 50/50 entirely since MKDA's animation, which hasn't been changed in MKD, speeds up all moves to the point that you're just playing Rock Paper Scissors. In other 3d games, animations are more fluid so you can see certain things coming before they do.

Generally, the more slower moves like lows and throws are slow, which allow you to prioritize a mid game, which leaves you generally open and a high-game, which while can be ducked, is faster and recovers safer. But you still need to attempt lows and throws or else the opponent could just stand and block. Now MKDA and MKD (the animation hasn't changed), doesn't have this balance in animation, good lows are safe and recover as fast as highs and mids. Likewise, throws recover just as fast and come out instantly, therefore you get a 50/50 mixup all the time... which obviously devolves the game into simple Rock Paper Scissors.

What's worse is the usability of the moves, mainly properties of moves in MKDA. You find your character's best low, you find your character's best mid, use your best juggle, abuse universal tracking and Backdash cancelling and thats all MKDA really is. Let me explain this to you when what all these guys are talking about depth and all.

Sub-Zero's Game devolves into the following:
Go into Dragon stance, do not go into other stances, they are not safe and you will be raped by Scorpion, BRC, etc. more easily than you would get raped by them if you do.

In Dragon:
d+3, you're only semi-safe low, does crap damage, but recovers fast, disturbs a lot, and executes fast.

Mid launcher, I generally use his uppercut. This leads into an air combo, but since Sub is so limited in damage, I generally do uppercut > ice

shaker > power-up > 1, 2, CS... change back into Dragon Quickly.

I backdash after my d+3 and failed attempts at special moves and other risks I must take since

Sub-Zero is a cruddy character. BDC allows you to essentially make a lot of moves safer.

I use universal tracking by hitting up before moves to make sure that you can never sidestep me, AT ALL. Since all my moves track.

ALL other MK characters devolve into the above aspects and can ONLY be played in those aspects. The only characters that don't are the characters that are good and cheesy. Mainly Scorpion, Bo Rai Cho, etc. because they have things that allow them to play a game above simple rock paper scissors.

Now why do other fighters have more "depth" than MKDA? Simply put, the amount of stuff that is usable, the options that are present, and the ability to adapt to your opponent. When I play MKDA, I'm playing a simple 50/50 mixup. That's all there is, unless I'm Scorpion, Bo Rai Cho, etc. where spacing and all becomes more important since there are so many more ways to attack.

MOVE PROPERTIES, this is something you MUST understand before anything else guys. Okay, Sub-Zero has around hmm... 8 low attacks. Only one is useful when playing safe. Why is this? Because it recovers fast and is safe.

Now you must ask yourself why in Virtua Fighter, certain characters can use upto 5-10 different lows in any given round, why not use the best one that is the fastest and safest, surely there is one. Here's the answer, move properties.

Move properties allow moves that aren't fast and safe to be used because they give you other advantages besides the ratio of execution speed/damage/recovery. MKDA does not have move properties, only this ratio of execution speed/damage/recovery.

Move Properties include:
- Tracking, some moves track sidesteppers and punish sidesteppers better than others. (Rendered Useless by Universal Tracking in MKDA. Simply push up before doing the move and it will track perfectly.)

- Frame Advantage (MKDA has no frame advantage), these moves put you in an advantage after you poke someone with it. Generally Frame Advantage moves that give you noticeable advantage in other games are slower, but your reward for doing a slower move means the next clash, your attack recovers faster than the opponent recovers from blocking your attack. Not only on guard, but also if you counterhit the enemy, or hit normally, the advantage or disadvantage you have will be different. In MKDA, there is either disadvantage or safety. Since disadvantage leaves you open all the same and the fact that most attack options come at blazing speeds, that means people can pull off their biggest combo easily.

Example: Say there was a really slow move that you can't find much use for in your mixup. In games like Tekken or Virtua Fighter, they will give you some hefty advantages when you land it on counterhit. So say your opponent attacks you, and you wind up this very slow move and it hits them during the execution of their attack, this move will, only on counterhit, give you huge frame advantage so that you will recover faster than your opponent and can be able to continue your offense. That is the reward for counterhitting and the reward for using less ideal moves in other games.

- Various stuns. (MKDA doesn't have this) Other fighting games have around 10 different states of being stunned. A stomach crumple, laying on the ground with your head down, or your head up near your opponent, etc. These states allow you to quickly knockdown, as well as put enemies into forced mixups where they must defend correctly due to the fact that while their stun doesn't make anything guranteed, it puts them in such a frame disadvantage that you could never throw out anything, even a jab, to outprioritize what is coming.

- Various floating heights. (MKDA doesn't have this) In Tekken, DoA, Virtua Fighter, you have different heights from juggle starters. Generally better juggle starters are slower, but launch higher. But safer ones launch normally or a low launch, but are safer. In Tekken, juggle starters are rated by class (based on how high they launch), in Virtua Fighter they are also rated by Class and DoA doesn't have a term for the height yet, but I'm sure it'd be the same. This allows for different juggles to be used obviously because of the height launched.

- Counter-hit Opprotunities. (MKDA Doesn't have this) Counter-Hits are the mainstay of 3d fighters and help differentiate attacking characters from defensive characters and etc. Counterhitting is the act of hitting someone while they are attacking and disturbing them, but you get some sort of an advantage for disturbing, however you do not get this advantage when you use it normally and it does not disturb. Some characters in 3d fighters, cannot launch without a counter hit. Sure their offense is fast and bulldog rushdown, but they cannot open up with launchers, stuns, forced mixups without counter-hit. This makes the character very dependent on counter-hitting. Some characters in games are so dependent on Counter-Hit that they are boosted defensively with more defensive options, making them into a defensive character obviously. In MKDA, all character's defensive options are the same and there is no reason for you to wait or try to space and disturb characters cause you gain no advantage from it. Counter-hitting generally gives you juggle opprotunities, stuns, forced mixups, ground game, etc. that are missing from MKDA since they don't have those nor do they have counter-hits with real properties.

- Interrupts/Invincibility. (MKDA doesn't have this... well 5 or so moves for the entire cast that are rendered useless by universal tracking or unfluid animation) In MKDA, there is no real interrupting, sure you can do a move thats faster than another move to stop it, but if you're playing anyone who knows how to play, they've already devolved the game to their fastest and safest moves. Interrupt moves in other 3d Games provide invincibility to certain attack types (punches or kicks or elbows, etc.) and to certain height levels. Examples include moves that sidestep to dodge, moves that go over lows to hit the opponent, moves that crouch under highs to hit the opponent, moves that go through mids (such as a ram) to stop certain abuse, etc. These moves aren't the fastest or the most powerful or the most safe, but if you know what your opponent is attacking with, you can go through their attack with these moves.

- Circular Hit-Range. In MKDA, most hits are linear. The hits that aren't obviously can punish sidesteppers. 3d fighting gamers call this half-circular and full-circular moves. (Soul Calibur refers to them as horizontals and maps a button to designate such) Half Circular moves cover the front half of your character and will push anyone within 180 degrees when they sidestep left and right. Full circular moves will punish anyone around the entire character. Obviously these moves are not as safe and not as powerful, but they allow you to beat sidesteppers. Now MKDA has a few of these moves, but what destroys this concept? Universal Tracking allows you to make every move track, such as a fast jab, a low kick, or HOW ABOUT your main mixup tools for your 50/50 game? Thus moves that track better are not needed since you can make your main moves track sidesteppers just as well.

- Strings instead of chains. This subtle difference is staggering, but its entirely there. In other games, many strings are not guranteed, even if you get first hit, etc. The reason strings are useful is because as they are called, they are a string of attacks which can vary in speed and can mix between highs, mids and lows. In MKDA, they use chains, where the first hit or any hit gurantees the full combo. This makes it so that MKDA uses even less skills as a single jab or first poke into your combo gurantees the entire combo and due to MKDA's animation, they are forced with making chains full of highs and mids, but not low. The thing is, if lows were part of chains in MKDA, it would be too overpowered like Sonya's string and it would destroy the game, why? Because everything is guranteed on whichever hit breaks the defense as well as the delay between a low and a high/mid is oftentimes exactly the same, thus creating another random 50/50 mixup and dial-a-combo system.

- A GOOD Risk vs Reward system. Let's face it, in every 3d competitive game, the highest damage options do not come off of jabs. While this holds true to some combos in MKDA, it is largely flawed because of this. If jabs are one of your safest moves in the game, why not just keep jabbing since it's fast and pokes well and is safe until you get into a big combo? Oh wait... people already do that with Kung Lao and many other jab characters. High damage options should never come off of a jab, NEVER, because a jab is one of the safest and fastest pokes in the game. Now let's compare this is player terms. A handful of character has a few power moves that are unsafe vs. safe jabs. A power hit leads to around hmm... 5% damage, a safe jab means you get to go into a full string that is around 25-30% or more. Now tell me, is there any reason to use power moves and leave your character unsafe and recovering vs. using jabs that is MORE SAFE and does MORE DAMAGE? No... there isn't any, which is why characters like Kung Lao can be played the way he is played. This is especially true since there are no real move properties in MK.

- A decent reversal system. Counters and parries are almost nonexistant in MKDA. You just use your Special Move stance and your character stands there and catches anything... in other games. You have to adjust your counter or parry with different height levels, different attacks, etc. so guessing is very complex. In MKDA.. everytime you think they will attack.. just hit and you catch it.

- A decent/good throw system. (MKDA doesn't have this) MKDA's throws are high-priority mids for low damage. No throw breaks, it doesn't punish high blockers, etc. (which is a less of a reason to use it since you can keep jabbing and poking with highs/mids or lows)

- A decent ground game.. lets face it, there is no way to space or to get people out of your face once you are grounded since there is no ground game. MKDA lacks rising sweeps, rising kicks and substitutes it with a lacking techroll game that is already more complex and complete in other 3d fighters. The only reason your opponent couldn't stay in your face with another 50/50 mixup was because the one standing couldn't dash in... but now they can.

- A decent juggle system. String-based juggles mean easy juggles. Worst part is easy high-damage juggles means staples. Now you look at T4 Jin, people use a staple juggle, but even then it's not as limited as MKDA. In Tekken and Virtua Fighter for example, staple juggles are the best damage/ease to do. But staple juggles are not the most damage, thus if you think you can try for it under the pressure, you can try for more damaging juggles. Cause in Tekken and Virtua Fighter, the stronger juggles consist A LARGE variety of moves that recover differently and aren't made to be put together, but perfect execution will give you that. In MKDA, since everything is string-based, everyone keeps doing the strongest juggle, why not? It's easy and it was made to be stringed together. Also due to the fact that MKDA has strings that only generally have you memorize different button pressures, but no motions, means its even more simpler to do. In Virtua Fighter, Tekken and even DoA combos, in any real given juggle, you're moving through half-circle, quarter-circle, back, forwards, forward forward and combinations of punches and kicks that make juggling a challenge and the biggest ones require you have to perfect frame execution.

- A decent wall game. You can't pressure someone when their back is to the wall in MKDA, nor does it help your juggles and combos. Infact, it gives them a quick and easy wall tech which means they are at an advantage when they are against the wall because half of your stuff will not work or they wont affect you at all which means you don't get advantage for knowing your environment and moving around it.

- USEFUL stances, hell in MKDA, most characters are only usable in one stance since most stances are so ridiculously useless. In other fighting games like Tekken 3, Soul Calibur 2, Virtua Fighter 4:Evolution, Dead or Alive; many characters have many stances that are good for them and help them either execute different strategies, boost their defense, etc. In MKDA and MKD's system is very flawed mainly from a few things. Weapon stances means you generally exchange your execution speed for damage, but you also get delay. The bad part about this is MK's weapon stance makes you take more damage when you're in it, few have any safe moves opposed to hand-to-hand stances, and few have any real options to it, so weapon stances are for the most part, useless. Only 2-3 weapon stances in the entire MKDA was decent. On hand-to-hand stances, it is so clear, based on the ratio of execution speed/damage/delay and 50/50 mixup would yield characters that are inherently unbalanced from others. Examples like Reptile in his crab form who can constantly do mixups faster than 95% of the cast and is safe the entire time show this. Stances in MKDA weren't useful at all other than for combos and 80% of the cast generally stayed in only one stance. For some of the best like Scorpion, staying in one stance was the only way to play safe, powerful and effectively. Which is the only way to play when you want to win, there is no need to take unnecessary risks... making you only truly use 10% of the movelist... so many useless moves.

This is why every Virtua Fighter match looks different than the other. If you watch a VF match, they will constantly use different tools the entire match, hell it is rare to see the same combo in one round. Their tactics constantly change, they constantly adapt, etc. Same with Tekken, Soul Calibur and DoA, but their staples are more stronger than VF, but still their matches look different all the time.

Definition: 50/50 Mixup. A 50/50 mixup is when both options, a low and a mid in MK, are both safe and fast. In other games, such as 2d fighters, lows are faster than highs. Highs are generally done by jump-in attacks or overhead attacks, both of which are slower and less safe. Thus when someone is close to you, you normally watch out for lows and block/counter highs when you see it, which is good defense. In Other 3d games, highs and mids are way faster than lows or throws. That means people will use mids to beat crouchers as well as highs to outprioritize mids most of the time. Which means you want to block standing up and only block low/counter when you know a throw or low attack is coming. What these games have is an 80/20 mixup, where one height or two heights, that can be blocked either standing or crouching is more ideal than the other. Obviously the 80 is more safer, but you need the 20 to mixup. MK is a 50/50 mixup with its best characters. Characters have the SAME option for risk/speed/general reward for both you blocking standing up or crouching. This means that there is no way to play a really good defense in MK, it's just random. It's like as if I flipped a coin and you guessed heads or tails. If you guess wrong, you get hit, if you guess right and I'm playing a safe character like Reptile (which cannot be punished), I just flip the coin again. That's not even a fighting game anymore, that's randomness. If you cannot play a smart defense, there is no real need to play smart offense. You just randomly mixup between your low and your mid and you have your entire game done for you.

In MKDA, matches look the same because every character besides Scorpion, Bo Rai Cho, etc. devolve into 50/50 mixups. Then, add the universal tracking and backdash cancelling and you render 80-90% of every character's movelist useless. Because there are no move properties, there is no need to look for moves other then the ones that provide you with the best damage/execution speed/recovery. Because you gotta ask yourself, Sub-Zero has 8 or so lows, only one is usable and the best. Sub-Zero has several mids, only one leads into a decent damage juggle. Every character can make their lows and mids track sidesteppers, every character can Backdash cancel their best moves to be safe. (the crappy characters are the ones that aren't) So what can you really do besides your 50/50 mixup? Is there any REASON at all to use any of the other moves if they do not provide you with anything extra besides execution speed/damage/recovery? No there isn't.

And how random is a game that is only based around 50/50 mixup? Hella random, it's just a guess of mid or low constantly since the animation makes them come out blazing fast and unfluid like other games to allow you to react. The only characters that can break the randomness in MKDA was Scorpion and Bo Rai Cho, but they broke it with cheese rather than real move properties and strategy.

NO ONE WANTS MK TO BECOME ANY OTHER FIGHTER, but we want it to be at least passable as a fighting game with some kind of strategy, usability of moves, and thinking besides simple 50/50 mixups...

As for the people who say you cannot judge a game based on the video released, you people are correct, but you can also point out what it lacks from video released. MKD still does not have counterhits, it still does not have different stuns, the moves still do not give you any sort of advantage besides execution speed/damage/recovery speed, etc. There is still no real ground game, stances still don't seem to be as rounded and the same stances are using the exact same movelist as the previous game with no tweaks. Knowing this and after reading my post on MKDA.. can you sincerely think that MKD will be that dramatically different when all of MKDA's problems are still there..?

Speeding up the game overall with forward dashing and being easily able to push people back amounts to two things.
1. Forward dashing means the back or side tech rolls when you hit the ground are now useless, someone can stick to you like glue and force 50/50 mixups all day on you if there is no real ground game.
2. Breaker system has been revealed. Discussed in this thread on page 4.

And that is MK Primer 101 in a nutshell.

I've created an outline for what MK needs to address on page two of this thread.

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

Dragon Points:
krsx66Posted: 08/20/2004 01:40 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

Nice thread, I read most of it, lol! I hope they did look at the flaws in GAMEPLAY of MKDA, not just added the nice extra features such as hara-kiri's, death traps, bonus games etc. for Deception.

MKD should be a big improvement on its predecessors

BezouPosted: 08/20/2004 01:44 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

Mortal Kombat came out, then Mortal Kombat II. They both used roughly the same engine with only slight improvements. Mortal Kombat II was infinitely better than MK1 even with the marginal improvements in gameplay.

So will be MKD.

txbulltacoPosted: 08/20/2004 01:49 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

I agree with bezou

I kick ass for the Lord
ghostdragonPosted: 08/20/2004 01:51 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.




HDTran Wrote:

NO ONE WANTS MK TO BECOME ANY OTHER FIGHTER, but we want it to be at least passable as a fighting game with some kind of strategy, usability of moves, and thinking besides simple 50/50 mixups...

As for the people who say you cannot judge a game based on the video released, you people are correct, but you can also point out what it lacks from video released. MKD still does not have counterhits, it still does not have different stuns, the moves still do not give you any sort of advantage besides execution speed/damage/recovery speed, etc. There is still no real ground game, stances still don't seem to be as rounded and the same stances are using the exact same movelist as the previous game with no tweaks. Knowing this and after reading my post on MKDA.. can you sincerely think that MKD will be that dramatically different when all of MKDA's problems are still there..?

Speeding up the game overall with forward dashing and being easily able to push people back amounts to two things.
1. Forward dashing means the back or side tech rolls when you hit the ground are now useless, someone can stick to you like glue and force 50/50 mixups all day on you if there is no real ground game.
2. Being able to do defensive manuevers are good, being able to whore it up without thought is bad. If everytime someone hits me with a ground-string I can just hit forward + block to break out, the better characters will be even more cheesy as their stuff will still work while the weaker characters can be easily dispatched with forward + block. The worst part of all is that usable moves will be even less.. ranging around from 3-5% of the moves in the game because anything else would lead you into getting hits broken.


Giving MKD a 'Dashing' component gives it a Samurai Showdown/King Of Fighters feel to it that I wouldn't enjoy in a MK game. I think some sort of 'run' component would work better.

Going against my well documented fellings on this, I feel that an esay way to counter, deflect, of break out of an attack is counterproductive to gameplay for it would slow down the game. Being one that wants more martial arts realism in gameplay, too much realism will kill it. And easy counters would cheese it up like nachos.

Good observations you made.


GD


Ghostdragon - Fan Submission Director ghostdragon@mortalkombatonline.com

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
http://www.mortalkombatonline.com

"Tis true my form is something odd, But blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole, Or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul, The mind's the standard of the man."

-Isaac Watts
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JAX007Posted: 08/20/2004 01:56 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.

Great topic. Hopefully people will read it and try to understand MKDA's flaws.

malebolgiaPosted: 08/20/2004 01:56 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

All this thread is about is comparing MK with other fighting games out there. How many time are we going to do this? MK is not like other fighters. It has it's merits based on other elements besides gameplay. The gameplay in MK is fine with me. Most of the stuff you said in your rant about MKDA is your styles of fighting. Not everyone plays just like you. Yeah maybe DA was a little stiff, but it was the first time they used that style of fighting engine. The prototypes usually have flaws. I'm sure MKD will be tweaked a little further on the gameplay side of it. Will the fighting engine be something that everyone loves? Of course not. We all have our reasons why we love MK. I have been a fan since 1992, and I've never really thought MK was an indepth game from the start. It's just a FUN game to play. Why do so many people want to turn MK into something it's not? MK will never be DOA, Tekken, or Soul Caliber. You know what? Thank God for that. MK should stay just the way it is...a fighting game that is loads of fun, and a game that I can play alot longer than those other fighters. Peace.

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BezouPosted: 08/20/2004 02:04 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

I agree with most of what you gameplay enthusiast people have said. You make very valid points.

It's just when certain individuals start tossing around derogatory terms towards anyone who doesn't completely agree like "scrub" that you lose the argument. Your points are good enough to stand up on their own. Don't invalidate them by flaming others.

Of course, I'm not talking about you HDTran. Excellent thread. Let's hope this one stays civil.

HDTranPosted: 08/20/2004 02:08 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.



malebolgia Wrote:
All this thread is about is comparing MK with other fighting games out there. How many time are we going to do this? MK is not like other fighters. It has it's merits based on other elements besides gameplay. The gameplay in MK is fine with me. Most of the stuff you said in your rant about MKDA is your styles of fighting. Not everyone plays just like you. Yeah maybe DA was a little stiff, but it was the first time they used that style of fighting engine. The prototypes usually have flaws. I'm sure MKD will be tweaked a little further on the gameplay side of it. Will the fighting engine be something that everyone loves? Of course not. We all have our reasons why we love MK. I have been a fan since 1992, and I've never really thought MK was an indepth game from the start. It's just a FUN game to play. Why do so many people want to turn MK into something it's not? MK will never be DOA, Tekken, or Soul Caliber. You know what? Thank God for that. MK should stay just the way it is...a fighting game that is loads of fun, and a game that I can play alot longer than those other fighters. Peace.


Bezou: Time's were simpler then, but MK1 to MK2 built on a system that worked for the times. MK2 actually had many improvements that many don't seem to remember such as crossovers (even though they remain stupid since the block button will turn you around and there is no real need to high-block against jumps), etc. But in this day and age, MKDA and MKD, whether they get as many good reviews for their mini-games is a certainty, it's system must at least reach a sub-standard to decent level. At its current stage with 50/50 mixups and game breaking glitches, it's hard to say it even meets the fundamental mechanics of fighting games, I mean looking at the throw system should at least show you that.

Malebogia: First, as to the repetitiveness of such threads, I ask you one thing, how many times are people going to demand characters? How many times are people going to repost a topic already covered by a newstopic? How many times are people going to speculate on how the next game is going to be? Add all of that to the gameplay threads and the gameplay threads don't even amount upto 5% of this board.

The problem with the 50/50 mixup of MK right now is that it's not truly playable. Since animations are so fast, picking whether you do a high, mid, or low into whatever mixup you want is only a matter of preference and randomness, rather than strategy. It is truly as if we played Rock Paper Scissors instead of a fighting game. There is NOTHING WRONG with being simple, many games are simple to pick up and fun to play. However, there is a problem with lack of strategy, adaptation and any other ways around the fighting system.

JAX007 & GD & krsx: Thanks for the support guys.

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

Dragon Points:
SatyagrahaPosted: 08/20/2004 02:57 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

Thank you, HDT, thank you.

"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."
wedgegoldPosted: 08/20/2004 03:08 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.

HDTran,

Were you able to play the Demo at E3?

GrouchyPosted: 08/20/2004 03:10 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

Ok, I read the first few lines. I know MK got flaws but what game doesn'y but for me aslong as I can ejoy the game I basiclly look past any and all flaws. Good thread though...can't believe you took the time to make it.

FLSTYLEPosted: 08/20/2004 04:45 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

oooooo Nice thread, it's like everything that you know just makes sense put into one thread hopefully people will actually read it unlike Malebolgia

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ROTFL@YOUPosted: 08/20/2004 04:49 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.

WOW the guy who made this thread must be stupid. You made alot of good points, but seriously everyone knows what MK has been lacking. Just give it time, MK: Deception is going to be better. And so is the MK after that, you guys keep bashing MK:DA but you can't tell me it wasn't a big step from MK: GOLD. Stop complaining, it's getting annoying that you keep crying about the past..move foward. MK has the biggest potential in fighting games today...it can develop a great gameplay with gore, mini-games, adventure modes etc. I think too many people complain here, and don't APPRECIATE as much. If I came off as an asshole, it's cus that's the only way to make another asshole understand.(i guess)

I'm laughing at you, not with you.
SatyagrahaPosted: 08/20/2004 04:50 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

A "fighting system" is nothing more than compiled mechanics which complement each other. One mechanic is designed and implemented with concious effort put forth of it "working" with another. The end result is expressed through the games gameplay.

It was clearly shown in HDT's post that such is not the case with DA/D. He broke it down extremely well. If you cannot comprehend what was posted; well...

Flaws are not the issue, either. The issue, is failure. There is a difference. In order for something to have a flaw, it needs to have some amount of digestable content. If it does not have this content to begin with, then it is a failure.

In case anyone missed the relationship; frame advantage, counter hits and properties are all directly related. Going back to the fact that all mechanics complement one another. In order to have counter hits, you need frame advantage. Since it is the frame advantage of a move which inturrupts. Then, a moves properties change on counter hit. Perhaps juggling the oponent, unlike a simple stagger that would accure on normal hit.

Saying things like "you're not going to play because of a glitch?" Or, "every game has it's flaws," is very inconsistent. In fact, it's scraping the bottom of the barrel on arguments.

If that "glitch", "flaw" or failure destroys the integrity of gameplay, and the gaming experience as a whole, I do not play. It is not irrational to adheer to quality standards. It is people with those standards who strive to improve the game.

When D goes online, peeps will see just how low the standard is. Getting raped by broken, illogical shit might be tollerable for a while. Everyone hates to loose, though. When the chesse begins to get distrabuted amongst the community - ironicly, by those who voice out against it - people will get feed up. They will see the standard. They will want that standard to change.

"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."
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malebolgiaPosted: 08/20/2004 04:50 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.




FLSTYLE Wrote:
oooooo Nice thread, it's like everything that you know just makes sense put into one thread hopefully people will actually read it unlike Malebolgia

For your info smartass I did read it...all of it. It makes some good points, but I'm just stating my opinion, or is that illegal to do now?

SatyagrahaPosted: 08/20/2004 04:53 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.



ROTFL@YOU Wrote:
MK has the biggest potential in fighting games today...it can develop a great gameplay with gore, mini-games, adventure modes etc. I think too many people complain here, and don't APPRECIATE as much. If I came off as an asshole, it's cus that's the only way to make another asshole understand.(i guess)

That was highly amusing, lol.

Especially...


ROTFL@YOU Wrote:
...great gameplay with gore...

Top tier, turbo. Top tier.

"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."
HDTranPosted: 08/20/2004 04:56 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.



ROTFL@YOU Wrote: WOW the guy who made this thread must be stupid. You made alot of good points, but seriously everyone knows what MK has been lacking. Just give it time, MK: Deception is going to be better. And so is the MK after that, you guys keep bashing MK:DA but you can't tell me it wasn't a big step from MK: GOLD. Stop complaining, it's getting annoying that you keep crying about the past..move foward. MK has the biggest potential in fighting games today...it can develop a great gameplay with gore, mini-games, adventure modes etc. I think too many people complain here, and don't APPRECIATE as much. If I came off as an asshole, it's cus that's the only way to make another asshole understand.(i guess)

ROTFL@YOU: Like I said in my post that you must have failed to read, I didn't attack anyone nor am I attacking the game. As a fan, I point out the flaws so they can be addressed. On other fighting game boards, players talk about what is wrong and what needs to be done to make a better sequel. Why not for MK... do you not want it to get better? Being an ignorant fan that buys anything a company pushes out means that they will always think that gore, fatalities, and fluff will sell and give you more gimmicky stuff when they should work on the fighting engine. Why do you try to justify how good the fighting engine is by throwing mini-games, an adventure mode, gore, etc. and everything other than the fighting engine to try to justify the fighting engine? We're discussing the fighting engine, nothing more, nothing less. You admit that the gameplay is lacking and its easily seen that MKD has not yet addressed these issues, yet you say it has great gameplay..? How can it develop this "great gameplay" if all the fans ask for everything else BUT gameplay? Ask for it and see what they do, rather than sit and hope that they'll do it in some future game while you play better fighters in the meantime. Tell me why it's great instead of just calling me names.

You ask us to wait a few games as if that is justification, but let me ask you this: If I made a game right now that had a lot of blood, fatalities, and a bad fighting system, do you think people would give me the light of day? No they wouldn't, I bet you would not defend my game and say to wait a couple of games for it to get decent, that's just silly. I'm not sure when you joined the series, but I liked the early MKs because it was a pretty good game, but as an already established franchise, they need to do much better, that's just a given. Instead of improving their system in Deception, they kept all the flaws and gave us mini-games. Don't you even care about the fighting game that got you here in the first place?

It's okay for you to attack me if you dislike me, but if you like MK, then at least try to help it get better. Calling me names isn't going to help MK get there. I see that when I ask for a better fighting system, I'm "crying", but if I asked for fatalities, returning characters, etc. then I would be "suggesting." Thanks for judging me by your awkward standards of things you don't like to see on a "message board" when I did it in the less offensive manner possible. Also I don't think I'm "crying" about the past when the game is still 2 months away from releasing with the same problems it had before as shown in the videos.

Hey Satya and FLstyle.

Edit: Satya, you explain things in like 10 times less words, but with as good of content =P Darn you, hehe. Wedgegold, I didn't.

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

Dragon Points:
FLSTYLEPosted: 08/20/2004 05:24 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.




malebolgia Wrote:

FLSTYLE Wrote:
oooooo Nice thread, it's like everything that you know just makes sense put into one thread hopefully people will actually read it unlike Malebolgia
For your info smartass I did read it...all of it. It makes some good points, but I'm just stating my opinion, or is that illegal to do now?


stop hiding behind the "it's my opinion" crap, I'm not even commenting on your opinion, if you had read this thread, and every single other thread that has been about gameplay flaws in the current MK system, you'd realise that NOT ONE SINGLE THREAD has been about saying Tekken, Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter are the best, MK is crap.

Every thread has been about the obvious flaws in MK and how it can be improved.

It's nothing to do with opinion, it is a undoubtable fact that the gameplay in MK:DA was absolute, utter shit on a stick, and even if no-one has actually played on it, it is obvious that apart from a unpopular, to easy to do, cheesy combo breaker and the characters are actually move a little faster, MK:D GAMEPLAY wise is identical to DA.

For the last month or 2 I've been pretty patient towards those that wouldn't know gameplay if it hit them in the face, I've tried to explain everything, but more and more people come along trying to act as if they know what they are talking about when they misunderstand everything said.

For every one person that understands what we are saying like Raiden_is_god and more recently DSB there are 100's more of people eagerly waiting to make fools of themselves because they haven't got a clue what we are talking about and will shout out any random stuff that suits them about the people that have a clue about gameplay, and the threads and posts made by them.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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HDTranPosted: 08/20/2004 05:53 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.



malebolgia Wrote:
All this thread is about is comparing MK with other fighting games out there. How many time are we going to do this? MK is not like other fighters. It has it's merits based on other elements besides gameplay. The gameplay in MK is fine with me. Most of the stuff you said in your rant about MKDA is your styles of fighting. Not everyone plays just like you. Yeah maybe DA was a little stiff, but it was the first time they used that style of fighting engine. The prototypes usually have flaws. I'm sure MKD will be tweaked a little further on the gameplay side of it. Will the fighting engine be something that everyone loves? Of course not. We all have our reasons why we love MK. I have been a fan since 1992, and I've never really thought MK was an indepth game from the start. It's just a FUN game to play. Why do so many people want to turn MK into something it's not? MK will never be DOA, Tekken, or Soul Caliber. You know what? Thank God for that. MK should stay just the way it is...a fighting game that is loads of fun, and a game that I can play alot longer than those other fighters. Peace.



My post expressively says that I don't want MK to turn into something else... I don't know about you, but there isn't much freedom in 50/50 mixups . Like I said before, you find your best low and you find your best move for every option and have your character. The problem with this is when you do that, you only use 10% of the moves... while MKDA might have lasted you a long time, for fighting game enthusiasts who took in MK's entire system in an hour found it not worth picking up for a few minutes a week.

I don't mind MK being simple.. but you cannot use different strategies in that game to win, every character has a certain way of playing and only a few moves to use to win. For example, if you do not play Scorpion in Pi Gua and cheese people into hellfires and then forcing down mixups where you can't be punished, then you can't play Scorpion. Likewise if you play someone like Kenshi and not do the same juggle with lots of telekinetic slams, 1's in between, etc. and constantly use the same low that every Kenshi uses, then you can't really play Kenshi. You say there is different playstyles in fighting games, that is very true. But the problem is Mortal Kombat doesn't let different playstyles fester. I'm going to use my character's best combo, best low, etc. and if you play the same character, you're going to use less efficient ones..? When you see a Kung Lao, they all play the same. Rare low mixup, constant jabbing into their full string, finish it up with the kicks. If you don't play Kung Lao like that then you can't win as him. Other characters are only somewhat better, mainly Scorpion in Pi Gua and Bo Rai Cho since they are cheesy and can do outside of the typical expectations of the game.

In other fighting games, you might use other ones that let you sidestep and hit me or go under or through moves, etc. but not in MK. MK's moves don't merit using any others that aren't as good in execution speed/damage/recovery. So basically we'll both be constantly using the same low, then launcher the other or poke the other into a string. Sidestepping is worthless since we universally track everything and we can backdash a lot. In other games, as I outlined above, most of the movelist is used or can be used in certain situations because of the extra advantage they provide you... in MKDA there is no such.. and in MKD, there isn't any yet either.

I play all fighting games and honestly, I love everything almost. But MKDA is so rigid, its game so flawed, that I really do feel like I'm just mindless playing Rock Paper Scissors with my little brother. It's great that you enjoy it though, it's just that every other fighting game easily holds me ten times more than MK fighting engine wise.

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

Dragon Points:
TonyTheTigerPosted: 08/20/2004 07:00 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone.

This game being online is a godsend for us because maybe now after actually seeing first hand what the problems are, the people who fight us on this issue will begin to recognize what needs to change. People aren't going to like being killed by infinites and not being able to win with their favorite characters because the game is so broken. Maybe those who play DA with a small group of friends in a basement won't know the problems. But when those same people play Deception online with players who will relentlessly cheese them to a 0-200 record, they'll get a wakeup call.

TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

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ROTFL@YOUPosted: 08/20/2004 08:48 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.

lol..thank sany, it's funny how quick you were to respond to my post lmao Oh and quote me right next time...

On to Tran, I feel what you're saying, but what good does it do to complain about this on a message board? I just replied to this cus i'm tired of kids bashing MK like it's gonna do any good complaining here.

Unless Ed Boon gets his ideas from the members of MK ONLINE, I see no point to this thread.

I'm laughing at you, not with you.
HDTranPosted: 08/20/2004 09:33 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.



ROTFL@YOU Wrote:
lol..thank sany, it's funny how quick you were to respond to my post lmao Oh and quote me right next time...

On to Tran, I feel what you're saying, but what good does it do to complain about this on a message board? I just replied to this cus i'm tired of kids bashing MK like it's gonna do any good complaining here.

Unless Ed Boon gets his ideas from the members of MK ONLINE, I see no point to this thread.


Generally I would agree with you, especially with Japanese companies like Capcom who only listen to Japanese players. (Although Namco listening to top US and top Korean players for Soul Cal & Tekken is very cool.) But Midway is an American company, they have said time and time again that they incorporate many ideas from players and I don't think they read Japanese =P. People complaining about fatalities and them making two fatalities each in this game as well as no more of that invisible wall should be credited to the people whom have asked. As well as the forward dashing that everyone said was lacking. It's all about community, it can't hurt to ask right? Just post on a forum, reply to a thread like this saying it needs to be addresed, give them a heads up, and that's that. Not asking everyone on MKO to fly down to Midway HQ and start a riot, hehe.

Tony: Yeah playing online is gonna be interesting, hearing people cry about imbalance and cheapness is gonna be funny in my opinion.

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

get-over-herePosted: 08/21/2004 12:58 AMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.

GIVE THIS MAN A MILLION DRAGON POINTS(er, or whatever you call them )!!!
Honestly, you need applause for this! I don't think I've ever read my own thought that clearly before...
I mainly play MK for the content and fun level. Though, while playing it is fun, once you figure out what the game is doing (which wasn't that hard in MK:DA), the fun level drops drastically, and the game becomes repetitive. This all connects to the way it plays.
When I saw a preview of Deception a few months back, as soon as I finished I thought, "They've made two mini-games (that aren't that "mini") that hardly amount to anything and barely touched the fighting system... huh."
In fact, if the system of how the game plays is changed only to the extent of how far they say they have improved it... then the game won't get much attention after unlocking everything. I believe this mainly because of the fact that everyone is used to playing DA, and if only "dash" and "escape(combos)" with a little tightening is done to the game, people will already be used to playing Deception... unless you count being able not to use combos (or escape them) and only use a one-hit/short-combo tactic *[INSERT HERE ^1^ !!!READ BOTTOM!!!]*.

Considering the differences between gameplay in MKI and MKII, while comparing that to the gameplay differences in MK:DA and MK:D, the changes and improvements between the first two are considerably higher if you put them on the same level as today's games.
The one word I would use to describe the gameplay in MK:DA is "cheap." I'm a crappy fighter on MAX difficulty, and, while still suffering the repetitiveness of the longest, most damaging combo possible from my opponent I can successfully win the tournament with Nitara, by doing my simple throw... the blood-suck! I LOVE IT too! But that made it less fun(in a way)...
So I see what you mean: best kick, best punch, backup, popup, side-step, block, throw. Then a simple, "I WIN!" But it's even simpler with Nitara's blood-suck Maybe that's why she was taken out of the game? ...Interesting...
*[ ^1^ : You can also include the use of deathtraps, knockoffs, and level-weapons: While these could make the game more fun(for some), challenging(for some), and "refreshing"(for some), I think we are talking mainly about the fighting system, so those areas don't apply as much.]*
Oh, and saying to those who don't see that much improvement in the videos, "You can't say that until you play it," means you can't say that the game will be a worthy improvement if you haven't played it non-stop for two days. Which is true when you think about it... Yet when discussing this subject in an intelligent post such as this, neither sides should be saying either phrase then, should they?
AND I STILL HOLD MY HIGHEST HOPES AND BIGGEST ANTICIPATION FOR DECEPTION YET!!!!

Shannon from Austria is a harlot.
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SleepWalKerPosted: 08/21/2004 01:04 AMStatus ::


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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDA's and MKD's lacking fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post.

Awesome thread HD. It's a shame that people who think that the gameplay in MK:DA was fine, keep coming into threads like these. Even clearly stating that this thread is strictly about gameplay, doesn't stop them from defending MK because of its fatalities, gore, and mini-games.

I'm sick of the simplicity argument too. I've grown up as a gamer, and the rock/paper/scissor style can hold my interest for a few hours, but then I realize that underneath the graphics, arenas, and fatalities there is not much there.

If simplicity and gore is what you all seek, get a company to remake PONG with fatality cutscenes for the winner.

There is also the "MK was never about deep gameplay" argument. MK was awesome in the early 90's and as far as not being deep or never being deep... most games were not back then.

Compare skateboarding games that were out around the same time as MK and MKII to Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, and honestly tell me that depth doesn't make a better game. I'm not talking about graphics or fluff, I'm talking about the actual gameplay. Look at how many tricks you can do in THPS compared to Skate or Die.

Tecmo Bowl was an awesome football game back in the day, but only had 4 plays to choose from and the defense chose from the same 4 plays. If you picked the same play as the offense, you would crush them after the snap. Would anyone want Madden to revert back to such simplistic gameplay.

Games have evolved. Is it a crime for we as fans to want MK to do the same?

Finally, I would like to state my opinion. It seems to differ greatly from many on this site, but here goes. MK and SF got me into fighting games. I fell in love with fighting games because of these two games. As the games got old and newer systems/fighters were being made, I started playing the newer ones. After coming out later then MK, they offered alot more in terms of strategy, style, depth, and competition. They challenged me beyond the lvl of simple reflexes and into a whole new lvl of strategy: inluding adaptation to different opponents, diversity in attacking as well as defending, and quick, creative thinking when my attacks or defenses were not working in my favor. They pushed my experience with fighters to an entirely different level. I would like for MK, it being one of my first and favorite fighting games, to at least be able to compete with the fighters of 2004. To me, MK:DA just seems like an updated look on a very old, and simplistic fighter.

I'm happy for the ones who can say that it is the best fighter ever, but in my opinion, it is not even close. My friends, all fighting game fans as well since the early MK days, won't even play DA because they'd all prefer to play Tekken, SC, or VF. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 friends, I'm talking about 8 or 9 of them. I don't understand how I, they, and others on this board can understand that MK:DA's gameplay is lacking and others here cannot. It baffles me.

I play fighters to fight other people. When the fighting mechanics are flawed or not as good as another fighter, I can't sit there with my friends and convince them into playing it because of the graphics, the fatalities, the cool characters, or the story. Those elements do not make the matches against other people more enjoyable. Fighters are competetive games, and the fighting is the most important aspect as far as replayability goes in my book.



ROTFL@YOU Wrote:
On to Tran, I feel what you're saying, but what good does it do to complain about this on a message board? I just replied to this cus i'm tired of kids bashing MK like it's gonna do any good complaining here.
thread.


Everyone complained about 1 fatality, lack of favorite characters, and no stage fatalities... look what happened.

Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein
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