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3D Kombat Klassics

Discussing the 3D MK Klassics: Everything from MK4 to Armageddon.
Page of 24

TonyTheTigerPosted: 03/01/2005 11:30 AMStatus ::


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MK7 Gameplay Design Plan (Important information on Page 16)

In light of this new board (and ~Crow~'s suggestion) I've decided to create a thread that will highlight point by point what MK7 needs to make it a logical, balanced, and functional fighting game. Unlike past threads where people will throw ideas around without any organization, I think that this time we should go point by point and discuss one issue at a time. Not that the other threads are bad, it's just that when something gets to be over ten pages long it can be hard to find stuff.

First, I think it would be helpful to everyone new to the gameplay exploration avenue to introduce this topic with a few basic definitions.

Frame - 1/60th of a second when the game runs at 60 frames per second (fps). The game counts everything in terms of frames. So a jab, for example, may be 10 frames between the initial command and the impact. So executing that jab takes 1/6th of a second.

Frame Advantage - The number of frames given to a player after an attack. If a jab is +2 on hit then the attacking player has an advantage of 2 frames when attacking again.

Frame Disadvantage - The number of frames taken away from a player after a failed attack. If an attack is blocked and leaves the player at -10 then the player cannot move or attack for 10 frames.

Oki - a.k.a. okizeme, a.k.a. wakeup. When a player is on the ground, oki is what can be done at that point. Choosing to stay on the ground, rolling, getting up with an attack, attacking a grounded opponent, etc. is all oki.

Move Properties - The effect a move has on the opponent. Depending on the attack and the situation it occurs in, a move can do a number of things. The next four definitions are examples of move properties.

Stun - A strike that causes the opponent to lose control and stand or wobble in place for a short time giving the attacking player a distinct advantage.

Crumple - A strike (often to the stomach) that causes the opponent to immediately fall to the ground.

Stagger - A strike that causes the opponent to literally stagger backwards for a short time.

Launcher - A move that tosses the opponent into the air giving the potential for juggle damage.

Juggle - A strike or series of strikes that keeps the opponent airborne after a launcher.

Counter Hit - a.k.a. CH. A strike that interrupts an attack from the opponent. Usually changes the damage or properties of the move to the attacker's advantage. Ex: A standard punch to the face can cause a stagger on CH but normally won't.

Guard crush - a.k.a. guard break. When hitting a blocking opponent the block is disabled.

Command throw - A special throw that is specific to a character and is often better than the universal throw input used by the entire cast. Often more difficult to accomplish than standard throws to balance the reward.


Now, I would like to suggest we follow this basic outline (Generally speaking. No reason to get anal about it) to keep some order in the thread. Let's begin talking about why MK7 needs to do what DA and Deception failed at and use proper frame calculations. In Deception, for example, a player cannot pressure an opponent. Since there is no frame advantage, everything can be immediately blocked. So after a jab the second jab can then be blocked causing some real problems for some characters because jabs and pokes should be safe. There aren't enough safe moves in MK right now because without frame advantage, damn near everything is punishable.

TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

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FLSTYLEPosted: 03/01/2005 01:28 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

I'd like some signature movements like Wash-dashing and an oki-game that takes the character get ups after being beat in a round one stage further.

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VersatilePosted: 03/01/2005 03:42 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Here we go again! MK7 is like two years off and im already looking forward to it! Anyway, TTT is right, lets keep this baby as organized as possible.

Midway has to realize that most of us don't want an extremely complicated engine. I'm not expecting the depth of VF, but just something that will atleast rival fighters like Tekken and Soul Calibur, but with some 2D roots flavor.

Frame Advantage is definetly a must in this day in age of fighting games. This would add balance to the system AUTOMATICALLY. Guard crush isn't as important to me as frame advantage. Also, counter hitting is a must. It adds a whole new layer of depth because almost every move will have extra properties if it hits on counter hit than on regular. For examples, just look at my Special Moves For The Next Generation Of MK Games thread on this board.

Move properties in generral need to play a more important role. Moves that go under highs, highs and mids and moves that go over low attacks. Moves that track side steppers and moves that guarantee follow ups even not on counter hit.

I liked throws in MKD, but now that throws are unblockable(THANK YOU MIDWAY), they now have to make them breakable. Each character should have two throws(all unique to them so you don't look lazy,midway!) and they should both have different break commands.

Dashing and Back Dashing need to be implimented. The back dash in MKD was pretty shitty. It should be made in a way where it can ACTUALLY avoid in coming attacks. The forward dash should close out the gap between players. I think since some moves in MK have so much friggen priority that either you should tone down the priority(or the hit box) on moves to make the dash more effective, or give the character a dashing defense. This is how it would work to me, while dashing a small bar appears under your character's health, this bar is your dashing defense health. While dashing you avoid projectiles and other attacks for a certain amount of time until your dash bar runs out, at which you can still dash, but you will take EXTRA damage and not go through the attacks. Fighting well increases your dash bar. Now let me elaborate more..

There's would be two types of dashing defense. Projectile Defense and Attack defense. Now all characters would have these. While dashing and you have your defense bar, if the opponent throws a projectile your character will knock it out of the way while dashing dragon ball z style. If the opponent attacks your character, he or she will knock their attack away, and your character will get massive frame advantage,similar to Soul Calibur Guard Impact technique. The Projectile Defense would be automatic, but the physical attack defense would require work on your part to get the knock away effect besides just dashing. You would have to press block as soon as you see the attack coming to knock away a high or mid attack, and block+punch to knock away their low attack. If you guess wrong you are at the frame disadvatange and not them. Now if you don't want to risk this you don't have, for you will still automatically avoid the attack, but instead of it being for frame advantage, it will end up a frame lock(neither player has the advantage or disadvantage).

More shit when I feel like posting it. Lets sticky this baby!


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krackerjackPosted: 03/01/2005 05:27 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Interesting ideas Vers.

I think though, that it would be hard to dick around with fames in game in respects to things like poking and parrys, if everything comes out so damn fast. I think perhaps everything needs slowing down just a tad, in order for us to see things coming a little easier. Especially lauchers. Some lauchers in these past couple games came out faster than usual attacks, and obviously, for the amount of damage you can get after them, that's just too fast.

Also, a lot of special moves seem to be 'invincible'. There's just no way to poke the opponent out of them. Something should be done about that, or at least the moves with good recovery need to have average priority, and not completely bulldoze through everything so that they can be poked out of.

Counter hit stuns are a must, too. Gut collapses/crumple stuns, and maybe some sort of leg collapse type deal, whereby the opponent is stunned, but in a full crouching position, giving only the opportunity for lows and maybe some mids to connect, just to mix it up a bit more.

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Raiden_is_GodPosted: 03/01/2005 08:22 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

More variety of moves and styles that aren't copied from DA or D!

Wall Attacks like in the MK movies you jump off the wall and do a spinning kick.

More Arenas that have dangers in the background just like Crumbling tower.
For Example: Theres lava in the background and your in a building and the lava flows in after so much time. (Just an Idea)

More indepth fighter better and various combo manieuvers.

More detailed fatalities like better graphics looking more realistic real organs not popcorn kernals.
Plus better Fatality Ideas maybe ones that last longer.

More throws and ariel moves.
For better Ideas search MKD forums for the More in depth fighter thread.

There were 25 pages + of great ideas

Maybe bring back Animalities and brutalites if there cool enough

More secrets and more old school fighters.

Make the boss harder and bring back choose your destiny

Less work in Konquest in Side games and konquest even though it's a good feature.
More work into the main fighting core.

Bring some of the old school bosses and shokans back in 3D and make MK7 a war between evils DK Vs Shao or someone bigger it doesn't matter that or save this for the last MK.

MORE OLD SCHOOL ARENAS

Death traps were nice but make them harder to get the opponent to get in them.
Just like it was hard for DK to knock you in!

If you have to have a konquest make a create of character like give us 5 names to choose from so it can still be announced after winning or when you select them but let us train them and select from multiple styles moves special moves fatalities etc....

30-40 character if not more. (don't say this is too much were talking about the next generation consoles that are going to have CD's that can hold a lot of data!)

FMV or something cooler endings.

I liked Noob-Smoke but an option of them being seperated would of been cooler also if they woul dof had weapons.

Bring back tag team matches

The graphics are pretty good no complaints except fatalities so I won't touch on that subject since they should be almost real looking in the NG consoles.

Don't rush or half ass the game like wat happened to MKD
Delay it if needed

MORE Secrets make them hard to find and passwords so the ppl who don't like searching can play as them. I also think it's good if I go to a friends and don't have em unlocked or forgot my memory card.

Stories are good some could be more in depth.

Better online features according to the ppl who play online there are many complaints

The krypt I like that Idea

The side games were awesome in MKD so good work there. But perhaps you could make a Mortal Kombat Kart that would show mario kart up lol I'm just joking no complaints here.

There's much more that could make this game cool these are just some of my ideas.

Just fix the fighting engine and redue it. Stop copying it over. Just like copying players. Kobra looked like cage... Raiden looked the same both costumes except colored black with red eyes. Work harder on this game and it'll be great.

The fighting engines my biggest concern thought and fatality details.

That is all for now!!!!

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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 03/01/2005 11:55 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Well, this thread is just about gameplay design, not other things like fatalities and such...

Anyway, great thread. It really helps give me a better understanding of the different terminology and such...

With the usage of different martial arts styles in the MK games, Oki is definitely an important thing that needs to be implimented, especially for styles such as Jujutsu, Sambo, and Vale Tudo which use lots of ground fighting techniques.

The wall idea sounds awesome and it would give the MK games more of that martial arts movie type feel to it. I really liked how Sub-Zero ran up against the wall and jumped over Liu Kang in the first MK movie and it would be great to see stuff like that in MK7 and future MK games.

I think another important thing that needs to be worked on is the amount of damage certain moves and combos do.

Like I believe you said TTT, jabs should be the fastest and safest moves. And I suppose to balance things out, it should also be the weakest move.

I have a question though...Will the same thing apply to Straight Punches or will they use a bit more frames than those of jabs?




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KonqrrPosted: 03/02/2005 03:43 AMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Two words:

THROW ESCAPES
NOT the easy way out like "Maximum Damage" or "Breaker"...a certain input depending on which throw was used and it must be done within the first 10-15 frames of the throw.

Continue with discussion...

MKII is a Glorified RPG...Turn Based Chip Damage!
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KonqrrPosted: 03/02/2005 03:55 AMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Dashing...you should just be able to dash forward and back and be able to press block at any point in the dash and you will stop right there and block. BUT, herein lies a problem that I'm sure the lovely MK programmers will run into and not test (*wink*)...The dash cancelled into block in this case would make you able to dash then block then dash again instantly causing a major problem in the gameplay...to FIX this problem, the dash will be disabled for 2 seconds to prevent overpowering forward dashes and uncatchable runners (You runners know who you are on MKD online lol). There would also need to be a way to run forward to close in on opponents who are far away on the battlefield.

Spacing is extremely important in fighting games, and giving us the tools to create space and take it away is VITAL to success in future MK games.

We do NOT need a huge roster of characters or a ton of extras, we need a much improved GAMEPLAY ENGINE...And we need it tested, I'm 100% serious about this...Boon, I'll test MK7 for FREE, I want a better MK game.

MKII is a Glorified RPG...Turn Based Chip Damage!
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VersatilePosted: 03/02/2005 02:18 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

I agree with Konqrr in that we need a better system, but I disagree about the relevance of a huge roster and lots of extras. I feel with next generation console, having 40 characters in the game wouldn't be a problem at all, and trust me, if fans can come up with relevant stories for tons of characters that intertwine with one another, someone who gets payed thousands to do so can too if they just aren't lazy(no knock on Vogel, because we all know Vogel is the man). Also, extras has been a part of MK forever, and I expect the new MK to be packed to the brim with extras as well. Customizable costumes Midway...please!?!?!?

Anyway that's all cosmetics, and I'd like to say now that most fighting game developers follow a strict path when creating their game. Basically core gameplay comes first, and then all cosmetics afterwards. Midway should seriously consider this. We are fully confident in your ability to make a great story, awesome fatalities, great music, fun game modes and nostalgic stages(and I give two thumbs WAY up to the guys who worked on the stages for MKD, especially the old school ones. The rush of nastalgia I got playing on them was beyond what words can express.). However, what we are worried about is your ability to make a solid game engine, so I feel you guys should take about a month in the beginning of development(if the game isn't alreayd being developed) to just lay out goals and plans for the GAMEPLAY. Not who's gonna return, not which hari kiri Raiden is gonna have and not ideas for MK Checkers, but the GAMEPLAY. Have an overall theme, not just for the overall gameplay, but the characters too, which brings me to the next thing I would like to discuss.

In every MK all character felt similar with the exception of glitches and specials. I feel this needs to change. I believe that every character needs a theme, and that this should be discussed before working on their moves and such. I don't wanna sound like I am making a Mario Tennis game or something, but I believe the characters should fit into a particular category. Defensive, Offensive, Technical and All Around. On the character select screen the category that the warrior you want pick fits in will be in noted in the square along with his name, overall difficulty and(if it returns, which I hope it doesn't.) his/her fighting styles. Below I will explain each category and who I feel fits best in each one. Note that I will only put characters that I feel are either neccessities or are wanted back by fans for one reason or another.

-Defensive- These characters excell at defensive techniques. They have a wide array of(and the best kinds of) reversals, parries and moves that go under and over in coming attacks. What they lack in big damage and offensive prowess they make up for with highly damaging reversals, safe pokes and a decent throw game. These guys control the match up passively and mentally.

Characters - Kitana, Quan Chi, Sareena, Sonya

-Offensive- These characters excell at offensive techniques. They have a wide array of damaging combos, quick and safe pokes, powerful throws and great post counter hit options. However, defense is almost non existant, for all their specials are pretty much offensively based, and they lack any real parries or reversals so they lack the tools available to defend well.

Characters - Baraka, Blaze, Goro, Jade, Jax, Kano, Kung Lao, Mileena, Nitara, Scorpion, Sektor, Shao Kahn,

-Technical- These characters excell with versatile, match altering specials, the most move properties and the best throws the game has to offer. They have decent poking ability, fairly damaging combos, but they lack anything that's both damaging and safe at the same, so these character must depend on their set up ability and solid post counter hit game rather than straight up offense or defense. They are probably the hardest characters to use well, but the most respected and at the highest level of play, the most difficult to handle due to their unique style.

Characters - Bo Rai Cho, Drahmin, Ermac, Fujin, Havik, Hotaru, Kabal, Kenshi, Moloch, Raiden, Reptile, Shang Tsung, Smoke, Sub-Zero

-All Around- These characters don't excell at anything, but they also lack no real weakness. Their strength lies in the fact that they can do it all. Decent poking, fairly safe, ok damage, decent throws and alright specials. These guys are usable in any situation, which makes them a favorite among beginners and experts alike.

Characters - Ashrah, Cyrax, Johnny Cage, Li Mei, Liu Kang, Nightwolf, Noob Saibot, Reiko, Shujinko, Sindel

Obviously not all of these characters are going to return(this is just sugestion,opinion and speculation afterall folks), but since there's going to be new characters that should beef up the defensive section(trust me folks, I thought about each category and which category to me best suits each characters). Thanks to Rubin for helpin me out on some stuff. I'll post more shit later.

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~Crow~Posted: 03/02/2005 02:51 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Well... since the first topic is discussing what MK:DA+D did wrong and MK7 must fix...

I recommend abandoning the three style system the previous two games have used. Obviously (I hope) MK7 won't use the same engine, but bringing back the three style system would be a mistake in my opinion. I don't think they can possibly build a three style system from scratch and make it truly playable. The styles themselves are useless at times... considering many players avoid certain styles altogether due to their weaknesses when matched against the second or third style. If they were able to develop enough styles for every character to have one, then they could possibly begin working on second styles for everyone... but the players would choose the styles before the matches. After choosing the character, the players could choose between two hand-to-hand styles available for that particular character. But again, I don't feel this is possible and the time/effort would likely be better used working on other elements of the fighting engine. With that...

MK7 should feature a two style system... one hand-to-hand combat style and one weapon style. This will allow the MK team to focus more on making each style balanced and unique as possible, while staying true to the martial art at hand. Many of the styles featured in MK:DA and MK:D are awful when compared to their real life counterparts, and I tend to blame this on too many styles in one game. One or two motion capture guys can only be so original, after all. Hire real martial artists or reduce the number of styles so that things can be a bit more realistic. I am sure a lot of MK fans practice these martial arts and would do motion capture for free.

As for the weapon styles, I would like to see the style change button removed from the system and replaced with a weapon draw command. Each character would have a different button combination which would effectively draw their weapon, then switching their stance (MK4). The reverse of this maneuver could be used to go back into hand-to-hand combat. I think the actual drawing of weapons would add a lot... though that's mostly cosmetic, I found the weapons appearing out of nowhere to be horrid, especially when some characters carry weapons on their bodies (Scorpion, Kira, Raiden).

I would rather have two styles that worked and weren't broken or useless, rather than three with only one that can be abused. This would allow them to add more movements (that are actually useful) to the styles themselves. There are plenty of other problems, but I will attempt to keep on one subject for now. This is a rather main problem, for me. If they were to fix this I believe it would allow for other fixes to take place more easily.

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GhostDragonPosted: 03/02/2005 03:12 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

~Crow~ Wrote:
As for the weapon styles, I would like to see the style change button removed from the system and replaced with a weapon draw command. Each character would have a different button combination which would effectively draw their weapon, then switching their stance (MK4). The reverse of this maneuver could be used to go back into hand-to-hand combat. I think the actual drawing of weapons would add a lot... though that's mostly cosmetic, I found the weapons appearing out of nowhere to be horrid, especially when some characters carry weapons on their bodies (Scorpion, Kira, Raiden).


To add to Crow's excellent ponits, a perfect example of how weapon draws can be done is looking at Jax's Machine Gun move from MK:DA. It was smooth and fluid. AND after Jax finished firing, he put the machine gun back around his back in another fluid motion. So any talk about it not being possible, even in a completely new system is absurd.


Ghostdragon


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-Isaac Watts
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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 03/02/2005 07:00 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Cool ideas and such. I agree with you all on many of the different issues.

To Konqrr: Throw escapes would definitely help though I wouldn't mind maximum damage and combo breakers in addition to that.

To Versatile: Interesting ideas you got there as well.

I'm still wondering on that question of mine though about the straight punch.

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TonyTheTigerPosted: 03/02/2005 07:20 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Versatile Wrote:
I agree with Konqrr in that we need a better system, but I disagree about the relevance of a huge roster and lots of extras. I feel with next generation console, having 40 characters in the game wouldn't be a problem at all


The inclusion of 40 characters isn't a problem on current consoles. The space is mostly filled by the visuals and no fighting game I can think of fills the entire DVD or comes even close. The problem occurs when there are so many characters the design team can't, or won't, focus enough on each one causing you to end up with tons of half done work. It also causes a problem with balance. It's no surprise that the fighting game with the largest cast, MVC2, has horrible balance while the fighting game with a relatively small cast, VF4, has the best. Sure, a design team can make a game with 40 characters and still make it balanced but it would be hell to do. Right now, with the current state of MK, I think it's best for the team to take things slow in terms of features and flair. I don't care if MK7 is considered a step backwards by the press because it lacks multiple fatalities, extra content, mini games etc. so long as it has a functional engine that can carry over well to MK8. Then they can go nuts. I just think it's a bad idea to ask the team to work with a full plate. If they can do it then great but I wouldn't want another Deception that's for sure.

Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:

I'm still wondering on that question of mine though about the straight punch.


What kind of straight punch are you talking about? What does it do? A quick blow to the face that does 5% damage? A punch to the chest that staggers? It all depends on the properties the move has. If a straight blow to the chest causes a stagger and does 15% then it will be less safe than a 5% jab to the face and thus have more frames. The look of the move is less important than what it actually does and where it hits. A move can look like a straight punch but hit either high or mid. That alone makes a big difference.

TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

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TonyTheTigerPosted: 03/02/2005 07:55 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

~Crow~ Wrote:


As for the weapon styles, I would like to see the style change button removed from the system and replaced with a weapon draw command. Each character would have a different button combination which would effectively draw their weapon, then switching their stance (MK4). The reverse of this maneuver could be used to go back into hand-to-hand combat. I think the actual drawing of weapons would add a lot... though that's mostly cosmetic, I found the weapons appearing out of nowhere to be horrid, especially when some characters carry weapons on their bodies (Scorpion, Kira, Raiden).


I think I'm one of the only people in this "gameplay group" who doesn't mind the one button style change or the three style system. The reason why the style change button is looked down upon is because most fighting games are still in the arcade so developers have to make very few buttons go a long way. But since MK isn't in the arcade I don't think it's a bad thing to make use of a shoulder button that's easily accessible. It doesn't really add depth or competency to the game if you make drawing a weapon d,db,b+4 as opposed to L1. It just saves button space which on a controller isn't a major issue. As for the three style system, I think it's a good concept if it can be executed properly. Ed Boon's original plan to encourage players to fight with all three was good. His execution is what made two of them useless. Do I think every character needs two styles and a weapon? No. But even if you just have just one hand-to-hand style and a weapon, provided they're as fleshed out and balanced as we want them to be, players will probably resort to using whichever they're more comfortable with. If the game is as good as we want it to be I could play Kung Lao in weapon while someone else plays him in Mantis and we're both doing it right. That would be the best situation. So having three good styles wouldn't hurt. It'd just add to the options players have in the fight. What isn't good is the situation that the team has to make 50 styles and can't do them right.

TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

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1TruKingPosted: 03/02/2005 11:06 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

I think that midway is doing the wrong thing with the 3d system. The 2d games were based around everybody being for the most part identical in their basic attacks, though different properties. The difference was in specials and priorities on the basic attacks. I don't think they need to have everybody with 3 styles or even have a weapon style for everybody. Tekken most people have different stances which is more or less the same as the style system in MK. Lei has 7 styles or so and a few other stance/style options like backturned or various grounded positions but a character like marduk only has 2 real stances. If mk wants to use a style system like they have in the last 2 games I think it needs to be rethought as well. It should allow easier movement between the styles and possibly other ways to get into them.

As for the number of characters I would rather see a smaller cast until they have an established and WORKING fighting engine. Tekken can have games with 30 characters because the characters have already been fleshed out and the system works well. They add some more moves and make tweak the movelists some for each character. Midway on the other hand has to more or less create from scratch since it scrapped it's original system that worked. If the next game does address the engine issues and fixes them for the most part but has a 50 character cast you will likely find severe balance issues again because there wasn't time to properly playtest them(not that midway playtests well with a small cast).

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FLSTYLEPosted: 03/03/2005 04:31 AMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

I don't hate the 3 style system but I can't help thinking when someone says "what other games have 3 styles for each character?" that they've been tricked by the fact that Boon + Co couldn't be bothered to put as many moves in as all the other fighting games.

Just look at the amount of moves you have in Soul Calibur 2 for horizontal and vertical alone, and you don't have to keep changing fighting styles to do them.

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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 03/03/2005 03:15 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Hmm, I guess it'll be similar to a jab since a Straight Punch usually hits high (at the least the type I'm thinking of). What separates it from a jab is that it doesn't have the snapping motion a jab has. I guess overall, it'd have the same properties as that of a jab. Thanks anyways TTT.

2 or 3 styles per character doesn't matter to me overall as long as they are done well and that they are balanced.

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TonyTheTigerPosted: 03/03/2005 07:26 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Yeah, I suppose a straight punch to the face as you describe it would obviously be a high hit and stronger than a standard jab. It should be slightly slower too but not super unsafe. You won't want to do it without good reason, though, because it probably would be reasonably punishable if it's ducked or sidestepped. Let's say it is a high that does 10%. I could imagine that on counter hit it would also stagger making it a little more useful in particular situations. I think that would fit your description best. It's like a stronger but riskier version of a jab.

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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 03/03/2005 07:37 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

TonyTheTiger Wrote:
Yeah, I suppose a straight punch to the face as you describe it would obviously be a high hit and stronger than a standard jab. It should be slightly slower too but not super unsafe. You won't want to do it without good reason, though, because it probably would be reasonably punishable if it's ducked or sidestepped. Let's say it is a high that does 10%. I could imagine that on counter hit it would also stagger making it a little more useful in particular situations. I think that would fit your description best. It's like a stronger but riskier version of a jab.


I really wish I had the means to show you a more visual description...

I don't think that the straight punch should do that much damage though. I was really thinking along the lines of 5 or 6% damage overall. It's really a basic punching move that can be found in styles like Ninjutsu and Wing Chun. And yeah, it should be slightly slower than the jab since the jab has that snapping motion. Cyrax's Ninjutsu used a Straight Punch though it kind of felt short ranged which is weird since I would've expected it to be more of a mid-range move. To me, the Straight Punch should be fast, mid-ranged, and hit high but can be avoided by ducking or sidestepping. Anyway, thanks for your input TTT.


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TonyTheTigerPosted: 03/03/2005 07:57 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

I'm thinking of it in terms of this punch used in Muay Thai and Boxing. Is it much different from that?



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~Crow~Posted: 03/03/2005 08:03 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Well, it isn't that I dislike the concept of the three style system. My opinions are based on reality... after playing MK:DA and MK:D, I don't think we can expect a huge change to happen so quickly. I feel that if they worked with one style per character, they could input a wide variety of strikes and postures more easily than they could working with double the amount of styles.

I mean, just look at weapons used by Ermac, Ashrah and Havik. Completely unrealistic and near copies of each other. If there were fewer styles to work on for the MK team there would have been a better chance of seeing some diversity among styles such as these.

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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 03/03/2005 08:40 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Hmm, yes...something along the lines of that...

As for the styles, well, they simply need to have more to them. For example, Shotokan uses quite a few different stances and I think they could be implimented into the game and have different properties and movesets.

I think that the characters should have more than 1 style. I was thinking that some can have 1 unarmed and 1 weapon while others can have 2 unarmed and no weapon. As long as the styles and the characters overall are balanced and stuff, then I'm satisfied.

Anyway, I'll continue that in that martial arts thread.

Moving on, what do you all think can be done to improve on the aerial properties?

I personally didn't like the way they were in MK: DA and MK: D. Although they are less realistic in MK4, I liked the way it felt and also how each of the different attack buttons had different effects and such. I know the MK4 aerial stuff may not be to everyone's liking, but I found them to at least be better than MK: DA's and MK: D's. That's not to say that I want every character to jump and flip like that. I think that certain characters should be able to jump higher than others. Also, some characters should be able to somersault while others just jump back and forth.

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krackerjackPosted: 03/03/2005 09:00 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

~Crow~ Wrote:
Well, it isn't that I dislike the concept of the three style system. My opinions are based on reality... after playing MK:DA and MK:D, I don't think we can expect a huge change to happen so quickly. I feel that if they worked with one style per character, they could input a wide variety of strikes and postures more easily than they could working with double the amount of styles.



I mean, just look at weapons used by Ermac, Ashrah and Havik. Completely unrealistic and near copies of each other. If there were fewer styles to work on for the MK team there would have been a better chance of seeing some diversity among styles such as these.



I agree, aside from the three style system being rigid and currently lacking any reason to use any other style than your most useful one, it's just too much of the same stuff over and over. If you're going to have a game where a lot of characters use a lot of the same attacks, it should be balanced, if not, then the game should at least have characters play uniquely to promote strategic play, and give reasons to use other characters.

Hate use Tekken 5 as an example again, but if you look at Steve, he's a very good character, and when you look at Lee, he isn't quite so good on the whole, but this is okay because they play completely differently, so a certain degree of strategy has to go into playing as Lee in order to win, and it's a little more rewarding than if you beat steve with say, Heihachi. There's reason to use mid tier characters.

With so many styles including so many samey moves (and of course there isn't really any move properties so they all have the same outcome), MK doesn't really have that 'difference of play' feeling at the moment.

The three style system is a good idea, but I think it'd be more realistic to expect just one fully functional style for each character at this point. Baby steps. Maybe the move lists can be broken up into three styles in one of the future games when everything is established, and works properly, so we can get the VF4 effect that TTT talked about, where people play the same character differently.

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KonqrrPosted: 03/03/2005 11:36 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

I think, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right given MK's history of game revisions, that they wanted to use the 3 styles as a way to keep the game simple and have more moves per character. You notice that the only moves that require more than one directional input are special moves. All other moves are done by either one directional input or none. You don't see any movement attacks, like a specific move that comes out of a dash or anything like that.

They wanted to keep it simple. It's time for a change. I really like Crow's idea of developing one style and having one weapon pullout. But in order to do that, they will have to do more than what they have done with MKDA and MKD.

Forward and Back dash
The ability to stay on the ground if I want to...ie: get up options.
True counter hits with different move properties...ALL 3-D fighting games have this, why not MK?

They can do better, they have to.

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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 03/03/2005 11:59 PMStatus ::


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RE: MK7 Gameplay Design Plan

Konqrr Wrote:
I think, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right given MK's history of game revisions, that they wanted to use the 3 styles as a way to keep the game simple and have more moves per character. You notice that the only moves that require more than one directional input are special moves. All other moves are done by either one directional input or none. You don't see any movement attacks, like a specific move that comes out of a dash or anything like that.



They wanted to keep it simple. It's time for a change. I really like Crow's idea of developing one style and having one weapon pullout. But in order to do that, they will have to do more than what they have done with MKDA and MKD.



Forward and Back dash

The ability to stay on the ground if I want to...ie: get up options.

True counter hits with different move properties...ALL 3-D fighting games have this, why not MK?



They can do better, they have to.


I agree about the ground thing. How about moves when the person is on the ground?

I was thinking that pressing forward when the person is on the ground should either make them roll forward or they could do a kip up. How does that sound?

Also, do you think up and down when the person is the ground should make them roll sideways or do you think it should be something different?


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