“The Ghost Dragon Proposals”: My Concepts For A New Fighting Engine

Just as many here who would like the fighting engine of fighting games, hopefully an engine that would be used in the next MK game, to have more realistic attributes and feel, I’ve been hoping that a development team would finally take that huge leap forward in creating a realistic fighting engine that is seamless and totally believable.

A conversation I had with respected member Bleed not too long ago in a thread he made got me thinking if it was even possible. Since it’s known to some here that not only does he work for a game company, he’s been thinking of making a fighting game someday. In his thread, More realistic interaction, what do you think?, he asked about being able to perform attacks that continued their motion that seemed fluid in addition with attacking specific parts of an opponents body. Well Of course the technology exists, however, I see it as an enigma just waiting to be solved. The solution, or solutions if you will, to solving this complex problem have been pondered on this forum before. Yet with the time to do a lot of thinking, I can say that I have come up with two proposals for a solution to solve the enigma and to take that giant leap forward in fighting engine development.

I’m not saying that one or both of my proposals will hail a new era of creating fighting game engines, yet, I can only say that they are exactly what I call then, “Proposals”, and nothing more.
Since they involve a great deal of conjecture, especially when it relates to console button configuration, I’ve also included examples of how each console (GameCube, PS2, and Xbox) could be used in performing blocks, evasions, and counters.


Outline

General Introduction

Research

”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle”/”The Grandmaster Method”
Part I: Introduction & Description
Part II: Blocking Concepts
Part III: Countering and Evasion Concepts
Part IV: Conclusion

”The Fighter Principle”
Part I: Introduction & Description
Part II: Countering and Evasion Concepts
Part III: Conclusion

“Tiger Climbs The Mountain”: Breaking Down the Opponent
Introduction & Description

Final Words


In next post: General Introduction and Research

Ghost Dragon

General Introduction

The Ghost Dragon Proposals are my two ideas for a new fighting engine. They are detailed proposals that touch on blocking, countering, and evasion concepts, mechanics of blocking using console controllers, and other areas of interest I’ve spent time on researching. I also have included a proposal for attacking specific areas of opponents.


Research

In reflecting on the dozens of fighting games that I’ve played over the years, I realized that the aspect of blocking is the key factor in how all of these games played. Of course you can’t play a fighting game that doesn’t have a blocking scheme cause you’ll be in trouble the moment the ever so opportunistic computer A.I. decides to open up two cans of whoop ass on you in a corner. I wanted to entertain the idea of counters and evasions and I thought that using the block button would be an accessible conduit for doing them.

I originally wanted blocking that could be somewhat new and more involved. The simple hold block concept feels old now. I tried thinking of other fighting games that had different schemes of blocking, but not to my surprise they all have bland blocking schemes. I thought the Street Fighter scheme was too simplistic and it’s more so suited to 2-D games.

I was interested in the scheme that the Soul Calibur series employs where a defense button is used, yet the player directs where the defense should be directed. Much like MK, this blocking scheme is nice enough, but it’s been around for too long. After playing the game over and over while only blocking I saw what I thought would be a great scheme to use. Yet of course the reactions of the characters didn’t have that realistic element that I wanted. I also considered actually buying the friggin game for Gamecube instead of poppin in quarter after quarter.

I liked the Soul Calibur scheme, yet the problem was how to obtain the realistic reactions and movements and to figure out how would they work in a system that uses broken movements. Eventually I thought of motion capturing the movements that I think I’d need for the fluidity of movement, but I want to see a wide variety of movements that wouldn’t be the same kinds of black and counters every time a character would do them. I wanted some variety damn it!

So where did I turn for the inspiration I needed? My personal collection of classic Shaw Bros. and Gordon Liu movies with a little Jet Li thrown in of course! And after watching and studying “The Kid With Golden Arms”, “Master Killer”, “Mystery of Chess Boxing”, “Shaolin vs. Wu Tang”, “Chinese Super Ninjas”, and about a dozen others, I figured out how everything could come together seamlessly.

I came up with the solution of having dozens of instances of blocking, parrying, and countering choreographed just as they would in a martial arts movie. Let’s say for example that each character has about two dozen high, two dozen middle and two dozen basic low attacks. And each character has two dozen high, middle and low blocks and counters. That’s thirty six different kinds of blocks, parrys, and counters that would be choreographed and utilized at every instance of attack. And those could just be the basic moves. The benefit of choreographing every single technique and character movement is to facilitate that realistic aspect of fighting an opponent.

Here are some examples of how I think blocking and countering could look like.

Exampe 1

Exampe 2

Exampe 3

Exampe 4

Exampe 5

Exampe 6


There was one problem that I saw that still needed to be addressed. How would one take advantage of blocking an opponents attack if there was constant blocking being done. This could have been a major kink in the basis of my two principles if not for playing Wrestlemania XIX. The game incorporates both weak and strong grapples and strikes. It was when I was customizing a CAW character it hit me like a palm strike to the abdomen. There could be “normal blocks” to do the basic defending. And somewhere in the middle of defending a series of attacks from an opponent a player could use a “strong block” to create an opening.

Example 1: When an opponent throws a side kick, unlike when using a “normal block’ that would simply defend, the player could instead use a “strong block”. A “strong block” would defend like a “normal block”, but with greater force that would render the opponent briefly off balance or in a vulnerable position where he/she could be left open for attack.

A “normal block” would consist of using one of the triggers on an Xbox controller, either the L or R buttons on a Gamecumbe controller, and either L1, R1 or L2 or R2 buttons on a PS2 controller. A “strong block” would consist of using both triggers on a Xbox controller, both L and R buttons on a Gamecube controller, and L1 and R1 or L2 or R2 on a PS2 controller.

In next post: ”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle”

Ghost Dragon

”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle”

Part I: Introduction

”The Open Gate Principle” or as I also call it, “The Grandmaster Method”, is a rather technical and involved concept that may suit the advanced players. I thought that ease of blocking needed to be emphasized while still allowing one to block an array of attacks with each movement being fluid and unbroken. However, I really wasn’t too keen with the same old concept of just holding the block button while an opponent throws everything at you. So I wanted a bit more complexity to go into blocking. While I still propose employing the block button, I want the player to take more of a direct involvement in blocking, parrying, and countering techniques. I think of it as being able to walk through a half open gateway knowing that you still have to open the doors the rest of the way to reach the courtyard. Once one opens the doors completely, then he or she can go through the gate.

‘Open Gate’ literally is a command. It’s really requiring a player to open the doors or simply telling the player to “Do your own blocking!” instead of asking the computer to do it for you at every critical instance. This is the essence of ”The Open Gate Principle”.

Also, since it is requires a dedicated and focused attention to observation, the ability to gain a handle of it’s highly technical aspect reflects the skills of the player and makes him/her worthy of being a Grandmaster. This is the essence of “The Grandmaster Method”.

Part I: Description

I see the block button being the main focus of defending attacks while using either the analog stick or the 4-directional pad to direct where to direct the emphasis of defense. I do not see a player automatically being in a blocking position or posture when the block button is held down. I see it more as a way to enter a state where the posture or stance of a character wouldn’t change from his or her normal position.

Example 1: When a player holds down the block button, a bar would appear underneath the life bar. This “blocking bar” would indicate that the character is in his defensive state, yet the player shows no change in stance.

Normal Blocking



The player would still be able to perform his moves and techniques normally. The “blocking bar” would decrease as long as the block button is being held down which means that once it is exhausted, any attack that would be blocked would break down the players defense and leave him/her open to a sustained attack. This way blocking, countering, and parrying not only becomes important in the matter of defense, but also in the matter of in-game strategy. In using a “strong block”, the bar would lessen by about 1/5 due to the force used to render an opponent briefly vulnerable.

Strong Block



Part II: Blocking Concept

Even though ”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle” is not meant to be overly difficult to use, it does require the player to quickly react accordingly to where an opponent is directing their attacks. Here are some examples of how it would be employed. I’ll illustrate using Gamecube controls.


Legend: Player 1= P1 / Player 2= P2

Example 1: Blocking

P1: Throws a high kick in the direction of P2.

P2: Notices P1's attack and goes into a defense instance by pressing and holding block (L or R buttons). To defend against the high attack, P2 presses up on either the analog stick or the directional pad(D-Pad) and P1's high kick is blocked.


Example 2: Blocking

P1: Throws a low kick in the direction of P2.

P2: Presses and holds block (L or R buttons) and pressed down on analog stick or D-Pad


Example 3: Blocking

P1: Delivers 5 techniques. A low kick, high backfist, spinning backfist, turning back low kick, and snapping high punch combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (L or R buttons); down, up, up, down, up.


Example 4: Blocking

P1: Delivers 7 techniques. A straight punch, low kick, side kick, snapping high backfist, high kick, turning sidekick, and crouching straight punch combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (L or R buttons); back, down, back, up, up, back, back.


Example 5: “Strong Blocking”

P1: Delivers 4 techniques. A front kick, sidekick, high punch and left hook punch combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (L or R buttons); back, back, up, strong block (presses both block buttons) on opponents left hook punch renders P1 of balance and open to attack.



In next post: ”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle” (to be continued...)

Ghost Dragon

”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle” (continued...)


Part III: Countering Concept

Since I envision counters being linked to blocking, it’s only logical and also practical to perform a counter in a way that requires a player to still use block. A counter would also include pressing an attack button to correspond as the counterpart of an opponents attack. Once a player counters an opponents attack by with a specific direction plus pressing any attack button, the player assures that the countering an single attack will automatically flow into a corresponding single attack of his/her own on their opponent. I’ll use Xbox controls to illustrate.


Legend: Player 1= P1 / Player 2= P2

Example 1: Countering Concept (P2 counters 3rd attack and flows into a single attack)

P1: Deliver 3 techniques. A high backfist, high elbow, and low kick combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (left or right trigger); up, up, counter (involves P2 pressing down+ black attack button at the same time while still holding block).


Example 2: Countering Concept (P2 counters 2nd attack and flows into three attacks)

P1: Attempts 4 techniques. A low kick, high kick, straight punch, and low kick combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (left or right trigger); down, counter (Up+Y), X, Y


Even though I’d love to see people taking advantage of using counters, I don’t want to see people going into 10 string combos following performing them. So I see counters only allowing a person two additional techniques after the initial counter hit. After the third hit from a counter, the other player will be allowed to defend them selves by either blocking or countering. I don’t want it to turn into a method of some “pony” just waiting to counter another player just to unleash a cheap ass 10 string on them. So with this limitation of following up on a counter I’m nipping that weak shit in the bud right there!

Note: “Pony” is a term I use to refer to players who constantly use a move over and over again throughout a match without strategy or purpose. “Pony” as in “one trick”! In Tekken Tag, the game gives such a person a “chicken” rank.


Part III: Evasion Concept

I know evasion could be a pseudonym for sidestep, but I wanted to have the two be similar, but different. An evasion move, as I envision it, would allow a player to escape out of a combo to save themselves from major damage. I liked the pushing technique that some characters in MKDA. I believe that sort of thing can be used to save a character, if only for a brief moment.

A player would escape by blocking and grabbing an opponents attack just before it connects and then pushes their opponent away from them. An evasion wouldn’t take any damage, but it would take 1/8 of the “block bar”. An evasion would consist of blocking an attack and quickly pressing back and block simultaneously to escape an attack. I’ll use PS2 controls to illustrate.


Legend: Player 1= P1 / Player 2= P2

Example 1: Evasion (P1 blocks and evades 2nd technique)

P1: Delivers 4 techniques. A high punch, low kick, sidekick, low kick combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (Either L1/R1 or L2/R2); up, down, evasion (down+block).


Part IV: Conclusion

In looking through ”The ‘Open Gate’ Principle”, I would hope that one would not find the blocking aspect too complex. It would all matter on reacting to what kind of attack an opponent is delivering and quickly reacting to it accordingly. It’s definitely different from the conventional blocking schemes of other games and that was my goal. Any huge step offers something new from its previous incarnation. Such is the way of water for when it boils it becomes vapor and when it is chilled it becomes ice. Well, in respect to the blocking schemes of the games out now, it’s been cold for too damned long.


In next post: ”The Fighter Principle”

Ghost Dragon

”The Fighter Principle”

Part I: Introduction

I can say that if some view ”The Open Gate Principle” as difficult or too technical, then after looking through ”The Fighter Principle”, some may like it better due to the simplified system. Although I do want to play a game with a sound technical fighting engine, I kinda wish that it’s so complicated that faqs written on it would be nearly 50 pages in length. So “TOGP” is sort of a guilty pleasure of mine. However, “TFP” is a more basic engine that still contains a good technical aspect that I wanted to maintan.


Part I: Description

While still retaining the blocking scheme from “TOGP”, “The Fighter Principle” relies more on the knowledge of a characters various styles. Although counters are plentiful in “TOGP”, they aren’t associated with styles in a way that they feel and look apart of them. So this is what “TFP” remedies. It’s a way of knowing every aspect of a style or styles.

While “TOGP” relied heavily on using block to counter and evade, “TFP” relies on a more bare bones method tied to a characters various styles. Let’s say for example a character has three main styles, like MKDA. Each style would have 3 different counters which would mean that each character would have 9 counters. Each counter would be an extension of a regular technique of that style.

Example: Here are a characters martial arts disciplines with three regular techniques with a counter technique that is an extension of one of those techniques.

Hung Gar

1. Tiger Strike
2. Dragon Strike to the eyes
3. Tiger grip to the throat

Counter: Opponents straight punch is blocked or grabbed and then flows into Dragon Strike to the eyes.

Karate

1. Elbow thrust
2. Step Sidekick
3. Ridgehand Strike

Counter: Opponents sidekick is blocked or grabbed and then flows into a Ridgehand Strike.

In the aspect of blocking, I’m totally divorcing countering from it. While there’s not the abundant amount of counters in “TFP”, I still want to have a dynamic countering scheme that is tied to the individual styles a character has.


Part II: Countering Concepts

In thinking of countering in the “TFP”, think of the combo breakers that Killer Instinct had. They were individual moves in the since that you had to do HCT (Half circle back) or QCB (Quarter circle back), etc to perform them. However, also think of performing them just as you would perform counters in Tekken using Back+(RP+RK) or (LP or LK) where it was a universal method to pulling them off.

Of course there’s the little issue of how to pull them off in a way that allows you to use a technique as part of it. This is where customization come in! I think a feature that allows a player to customize which technique can also be used in a counter would be a great way of adding variety to gameplay. Let’s say a character has 20 individual techniques in each style, Savate for example. A player would be able to choose from any of those 20 techniques to apply to their three counters. I’ll illustrate using PS2 controls.

Example 1: So a regular technique could be performed by doing (back, down, back+Square). Now that same technique can be assigned to one of that style’s 3 counters. So that every counter is performed using the same configuration in every style, lets say that (HCT+Square+X) is how you perform one counter using the very same technique. And just as in “TOGP”, after the initial hit of the counter, a player is only afforded two additional hits!


Part II: Evasion Concepts

I think that the evasion concept in “TOGP” is a functional one that could also be applied to “TFP”. Here’s a review of it.

A player would escape by blocking and grabbing an opponents attack just before it connects and then pushes their opponent away from them. An evasion wouldn’t take any damage, but it would take 1/8 of the “block bar”. An evasion would consist of blocking an attack and quickly pressing back and block simultaneously to escape an attack. I’ll use PS2 controls to illustrate.


Legend: Player 1= P1 / Player 2= P2

Example 1: Evasion (P1 blocks and evades 2nd technique)

P1: Delivers 4 techniques. A high punch, low kick, sidekick, low kick combination.

P2: Presses and holds block (Either L1/R1 or L2/R2); up, down, evasion (down+block).


Part III: Conclusion

I see “TFP” to be a perfectly simple concept that beginners to advanced would have no problem getting a handle of. Even though its considerably easier than “TOGP”, it still has some technical aspects that I hope would maintain a players interest when one is playing the game.


In next post: “Tiger Climbs The Mountain”: Breaking Down the Opponent

Ghost Dragon

“Tiger Climbs The Mountain”: Breaking Down the Opponent

Introduction

Now I would love to see directed attacks to an opponents lower extremities or wherever. I think it would add that extra element of realism while still maintaining great gameplay. I recently saw the Denzel Washington movie Man On Fire and there was a scene straight out of Fist Of The North Star!

...








*****SPOILER WARNING*****










Denzel’s character has this guy tied to a car and he then informs him that he put a bomb made from C-4 in this guy’s rectal cavity. He has a transmitter in a pen and then presses it. He informs the poor guy then he has 5 minutes before the bomb sends him off to the next world. And after Denzel’s character tells the guy this, just out of Fist, a five minute clock appears at the lower right hand corner of the screen and then proceeds to count down to zero!

And that clock idea is what I think would make this concept work.


Description

I believe that once a player inflicts a great deal of damage to an opponents legs, mid-section, head, etc, that a clock appear somewhere under the health bar that indicates how long an opponent will be slowed down do to an injury. Injury damage resulting from repeated normal attacks to a specific area of the body would last 6 seconds and injuries resulting from repeated counters would last 12 seconds.

When an opponent has sustained an injury, the injury clock would appear and the opponent’s general movements would be slowed by 25-50% for as long the injury lasts. This would also result in the “block bar” decreasing twice as fast when block is held down and when the opponent performs a “Strong block” where instead of 1/5 of the barbeing drained, 1/3 is taken away.


Final Words

I’ve been thinking about these ideas for a long time. It all goes back to the golden ages of the High Level Gameplay thread on the MKDA board. However, it was Bleed’s thread got me to actually start writing down tons of notes on my concepts. Some may think that these are the extent of my ideas of the two concepts, but in reality, they’re the abridged versions. I have more extensive detail on these concepts in a thick notebook that is literally getting even thicker. LOL! However, what’s here is all the basic, if you want to call it that, info I felt like sharing. It would have taken me another two weeks to add everything else in on top of the initial two weeks it took me to translate my scribble to legible text. So if anyone wants to look at any additional notes that I have on these concepts, the content along with audio commentary, storyboards, concept art, and gag reel will be in the second side of the DVD when it ships in July. LOL! OH! And it’ll be priced at $18.75 if anyone’s wondering!

So if anyone has any other concepts of their own, please share them. As I said, like twenty five posts ago , I know everyone has ideas for a fighting engine that we all would love to look at. With all the ideas that we all have, Midway has got to take a look at them.

*sighs*

Well... I gotta Jet like Li! I’ve gotta figure out how I’m gonna get past page twelve. If you all hear about an aspiring screenwriter going ape shit and going on a mass murder spree cause he couldn’t get past page twelve... that’ll be me. LOL!!!!!


Ghost wuz here!

Ghost Dragon

ghostdragon Wrote: “The Ghost Dragon Proposals”: My Concepts For A New Fighting Engine Just as many here who would like the fighting engine of fighting games, hopefully an engine that would be used in the next MK game, to have more realistic attributes and feel, I’ve been hoping that a development team would finally take that huge leap forward in creating a realistic fighting engine that is seamless and totally believable. In his thread, More realistic interaction, what do you think?, he asked about being able to perform attacks that continued their motion that seemed fluid in addition with attacking specific parts of an opponents body.

I personally think that in a simpler form of this idea is the DOA engine is just that, fluid and smooth. Even with the counters. I would like to see a fighting game engine to evolve that concept even more. With more true to life type fighting styes, like in MK:DA, but you don't have to switch between the fighting styles, everything is combine into one move set. It should esentially make the fighting more smoothly. Counters shouldn't be as outrages as they are in DOA, and not as fast. There should be a split second break in the counter between the breaking of the oppnents move and the actual counter move, this way you could keep counting each others moves, which would make the game more sylylish, with each both players going back and forth with counters. The resonse time has to be spot on, and real time too. And I know that graphics aren't supposed to be everything, but to make a more true to life fighting game your going to need more true to life character models like in DOA, or even UFC. Also a more advanced concept of the limb damage system like in Tao feng, but not as over the top, and no regeneration Chi moves. Something kind of like UFC, but with out all the grappels.

Good stuff. Looks like you're a fan of reversals and counters, lol. From what I've played and experienced, the more bait tactics that are hard implements of an engine, the more it seams to slow down gameplay.

I don't know what speed you see this game being played at, though. Methodical, rush down, bait and turtle? I personally don't like a lot of hard implements, such as a ton of reversal/counter options. I like the outs of a fighter to be based off movement and move properties. The game seams to be more openended if such is done; allows for more creativity and spontaneity, too.

BUT, that's me. I see a lot of potential with what was given, I like it. Seams like an attempt to bridge real MA into a fighting engine. Nice. It's fairly organized, too. I appreciate that, lol. Peace.

Satyagraha Wrote: Good stuff. Looks like you're a fan of reversals and counters, lol. From what I've played and experienced, the more bait tactics that are hard implements of an engine, the more it seams to slow down gameplay.

I don't know what speed you see this game being played at, though. Methodical, rush down, bait and turtle? I personally don't like a lot of hard implements, such as a ton of reversal/counter options. I like the outs of a fighter to be based off movement and move properties. The game seams to be more openended if such is done; allows for more creativity and spontaneity, too.

BUT, that's me. I see a lot of potential with what was given, I like it. Seams like an attempt to bridge real MA into a fighting engine. Nice. It's fairly organized, too. I appreciate that, lol. Peace.

Xie xie for your comments.

I have to admit I'll have to add "Methodical", "rush down", "bait and turtle" to my vocabulary of game terminology. I feel where you're coming from in respect of gameplay slowing down. Although, my concepts are of a technical aspect, I wouldn't want them to be overly difficult whereas gameplay suffers. I admit that I would have to compromise on some details in sake for ease of play.

I'm not a total slave to counters and reversals though. You're right about me attempting to blend real MA into a fighting engine. The flow of movement in all aspects is the next step that I think will take fighting engines to another level. And counters and reversals are the logical additions from MA that would help to make it succeed.

Again... xie xie. *bows*

Anyone else have any conepts they wish to share?


Ghost Dragon

i think that having both normal and strong blocking systems wud be awesome. im sick of playin against people who use blocking all through the match and hit back wen i open up. its unrealistik that a powerful move like a fireball or rocket can be blocked by a normal block, it should at least make people stumble.....awesome idea.

As nice as this thread may have been, it is still over 3 years old, and far outside the bumping allowance. Please make yourself away of the site's rules, one of which disallows replying to threads of this age without express permission.


Thread closed.