Mathematical aproach for damage calculation of combos
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posted11/06/2006 09:45 PM (UTC)by
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Uranius
Mathematical aproach on enhancing damage calculation of combos

For Damage Calculating of Combos I propose the following formula, with the variables: C = combo damage; z = damping exponent; a,b,c,... = single hit damage:

C = z√az+bz+cz.....

In this formula the root of the function reduces damage growth, when the Combo already has high damage. The exponent makes strong hits count more than weak ones in the combo, and makes the formula valid for a one hit combo.

Consequences when using this formula for damage Calculation.

  • A "one hit combo" has the same damage as the hit itself. For one Hit, the exponent and the root compensate each other.
  • Juggle Hits and on-ground hits are treated the same
  • Performing the same hits in different order will not change combo damage. If you swap the hits in that sum it won't have effect. In MKD damage changes when hits are done before a popup instead of afterwards.
    Example: Ermac Choy¡Lay¡Fut
    1 1 ←2 .. 1 1 2 .. CS↑3 = 25% compared to
    ←2 .. 1 1 .. 1 1 2 .. CS↑3 = 33%
  • If you insert an extra hit anywhere into any combo the resulting combo will have higher damage. Insert a dz in the sum and it is obvious that damage must get more. In MKD second popups as well as hits before the popup can decrease combo damage.
    Examples: Baraka Blades
    ↑3 ↑3 .. 3 3 2 1 .. →→3 = 39% compared to
    ↑3 .. 3 3 2 1 .. →→3 = 43%
    Kenshi Thai Chi (several hits inserted)
    2 2 2 CS 4 ←2 .. CS↑2 .. CS 2 2 2 3 .. ←→3 = 25% compared to
    Katana ↑2 .. CS 2 2 2 3 .. ←→3 = 38%
  • Moves consisting of two hits or parts of combos can be considered as one hit. One power hit with the same damage as the combo damage of two weak hits will have the same effect in a combo than the two weak hits. So you can calculate combo damage based on "combo snippets"; for example (a hit + popup), (three punches), power Move.
    I'll show the Mathematics behind this:
    Lets say A stands for hit and popup: A = z√az+bz
    And B represents the punches: B = z√cz+dz+ez
    Finally there is a power move left called f.
    Combo damage would be: C = z√Az+Bz+fz
    But Az = az+bz because the root and the exponent compensate each other. Bz = cz+dz+ez.
    We can insert those and get the formula based on single hits: C = z√az+bz+cz+dz+ez+fz
  • The highest Combos shouldn't surpass 49% Damage and should be in the same range of damage for all characters. The root function does a damage degradation to make it harder to get more damage when you already have much. This can be fine tuned with the damping exponent z. If you pick a value of 1.3 or 1.35 for z, it simulates damage reduction behavior for MKD ground combos quite good. Secondly gameplay needs tiny corrections.
  • Gameplay issues: to prevent getting too high combos there schouldn't be extreme long ground combos ending on popups, letting you do very many hits, like Shujinko 22 hits or something. I would recommend two hits before a popup and long combos ending on a power move, that can be used for the juggle. This way combos consisting of two times the same glued together would be avoided automatically.


From the combo damage to the damage of a hit in the combo.

To get the damage that a new hit adds to the combo (and subtract it from the opponents health) the console will have to calculate the following way:
Remember a sum of Hits: S = az+bz+.... ; and remember the damage the combo has already caused: C ; as well as the new combo damage: D.
Lets say, z = 1,3 and all hits have a base damage of 5.
  • We start with Hit number one: S = 51,3 = 8 ; C = 0 ; D¡=¡z√S ; Damage for this hit is D-C¡=¡5
  • Hit number 2: We add 5z to S and override the value for S: S = 8+51,3 = 16 ; D = z√S = 9 and D-C = 4 ; D overrides C (so C is the old Combo damage for the next step).
  • Hit 3: S = S+5z = 24 ; D = z√S = 12 ; D-C = 12-9 = 3 ; C = D.
  • and so on ... If the combo doesent connect spit out Combo "D"% and reset S and C to 0.


Examples:

For z = 1,3 a Combo of all 5-damage hits would look like this:
For this value of z, a 20 hit Combo has the damage of 10 single hits.
hit adds 5 4 3 3 2 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2Combo 5 9 12 1517 20 22 25 2729 32 34 36 3840 42 44 46 4850

for a Combo consisting of 7- Hit moves it would look like this:
hit adds 7 5 4 4 4 4 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3Combo 7 12 16 2024 28 31 35 3841 44 47 50 5356 59 62 65 6770
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vjeekes
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05/01/2006 05:13 PM (UTC)
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Uranius Wrote:

Mathematical aproach on enhancing damage calculation of combos

For Damage Calculating of Combos I propose the following formula, with the variables: C = combo damage; z = damping exponent; a,b,c,... = single hit damage:

C = z√az+bz+cz.....

In this formula the root of the function reduces damage growth, when the Combo already has high damage.
The exponent makes strong hits count more than weak ones in the combo, and makes the formula valid for a one hit combo.
holy god, great stuff dude
Consequences when using this formula for damage Calculation.

  • A "one hit combo" has the same damage as the hit itself. For one Hit, the exponent and the root compensate each other.

  • Juggle Hits and on-ground hits are treated the same

  • Performing the same hits in different order will not change combo damage. If you swap the hits in that sum it won't have effect. In MKD damage changes when hits are done before a popup instead of afterwards.

    Example: Ermac Choy¡Lay¡Fut

    1 1 ←2 .. 1 1 2 .. CS↑3 = 25% compared to

    ←2 .. 1 1 .. 1 1 2 .. CS↑3 = 33%

  • If you insert an extra hit anywhere into any combo the resulting combo will have higher damage. Insert a dz in the sum and it is obvious that damage must get more. In MKD second popups as well as hits before the popup can decrease combo damage.

    Examples: Baraka Blades

    ↑3 ↑3 .. 3 3 2 1 .. →→3 = 39% compared to

    ↑3 .. 3 3 2 1 .. →→3 = 43%

    Kenshi Thai Chi (several hits inserted)

    2 2 2 CS 4 ←2 .. CS↑2 .. CS 2 2 2 3 .. ←→3 = 25% compared to

    Katana ↑2 .. CS 2 2 2 3 .. ←→3 = 38%

  • Moves consisting of two hits or parts of combos can be considered as one hit. One power hit with the same damage as the combo damage of two weak hits will have the same effect in a combo than the two weak hits. So you can calculate combo damage based on "combo snippets"; for example (a hit + popup), (three punches), power Move.

    I'll show the Mathematics behind this:

    Lets say A stands for hit and popup: A = z√az+bz

    And B represents the punches: B = z√cz+dz+ez

    Finally there is a power move left called f.

    Combo damage would be: C = z√Az+Bz+fz

    But Az = az+bz because the root and the exponent compensate each other. Bz = cz+dz+ez.

    We can insert those and get the formula based on single hits: C = z√az+bz+cz+dz+ez+fz

  • The highest Combos shouldn't surpass 49% Damage and should be in the same range of damage for all characters. The root function does a damage degradation to make it harder to get more damage when you already have much. This can be fine tuned with the damping exponent z. If you pick a value of 1.3 or 1.35 for z, it simulates damage reduction behavior for MKD ground combos quite good. Secondly gameplay needs tiny corrections.

  • Gameplay issues: to prevent getting too high combos there schouldn't be extreme long ground combos ending on popups, letting you do very many hits, like Shujinko 22 hits or something. I would recommend two hits before a popup and long combos ending on a power move, that can be used for the juggle. This way combos consisting of two times the same glued together would be avoided automatically.



From the combo damage to the damage of a hit in the combo.

To get the damage that a new hit adds to the combo (and subtract it from the opponents health) the console will have to calculate the following way:
Remember a sum of Hits: S = az+bz+.... ; and remember the damage the combo has already caused: C ; as well as the new combo damage: D.
Lets say, z = 1,3 and all hits have a base damage of 5.
  • We start with Hit number one: S = 51,3 = 8 ; C = 0 ; D¡=¡z√S ; Damage for this hit is D-C¡=¡5

  • Hit number 2: We add 5z to S and override the value for S: S = 8+51,3 = 16 ; D = z√S = 9 and D-C = 4 ; D overrides C (so C is the old Combo damage for the next step).

  • Hit 3: S = S+5z = 24 ; D = z√S = 12 ; D-C = 12-9 = 3 ; C = D.

  • and so on ... If the combo doesent connect spit out Combo "D"% and reset S and C to 0.



Examples:

For z = 1,3 a Combo of all 5-damage hits would look like this:
For this value of z, a 20 hit Combo has the damage of 10 single hits.


hit adds 5 4 3 3 2 3 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
Combo 5 9 12 1517 20 22 25 2729 32 34 36 3840 42 44 46 4850

for a Combo consisting of 7- Hit moves it would look like this:


hit adds 7 5 4 4 4 4 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
Combo 7 12 16 2024 28 31 35 3841 44 47 50 5356 59 62 65 6770


wow
That sort of comments was exactly, what I expected, LOL
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Phokjong
05/01/2006 07:22 PM (UTC)
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I think the programmers of MKD made individual combo damage modifications. Maybe a popup lowers damage for following hits, as well as the number of preceding hits or something like that. Unfortunately there seem to be some exceptions:
Kenshi b+1,...,2,..,2,..,2,..,2-2-2-3,..,b-f+3:
1. the single hits are all the same damage, it doesn`t seem to get less.
2. The tele-flurry at the end of the combo deals a lot of damage inspite of being at the end of the combo. I think it is even the same damage no matter if its in the combo or performed as a single hit.

These exceptions lead to weird combos.
Performing more difficult combos by adding hits at the wrong point is punished by a lower combo damage.
I wish the really high combos were the ones with the largest hit count and they should be the hardest to perform.

The formula provided by VILE could solve all these issues simultaneously. This is great. (and should be rewarded some dragon points as Malheur pointed out)

P.S. Vjeekes, please don`t click on the "Add Original"-button when citing such a large post. Dat maakt de post onoverzichtelijk.
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G-S-E
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05/01/2006 07:31 PM (UTC)
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yo! wow

that's crazy! what ur thinkin bout, when ur fightin? wink
but that's really great! did u wrote a test about it? grin
Well, about the dragon points: I'd rather whish Ed Boon would read this instead of getting dragon points. LOL
But thanks guys, I didn't expect positive comments!
It's elemental...

Wow man, I can't think like that.
I have to see the stuff happening in my head to be able to figure it out.

Now......I don't really understand this, but I'll see if I can throw a wrench in to your equation.

What happens with attacks that cause different reactions during a juggle?

Attack A = jab = Basic bounce and fall away.

Attack B = Knee strike = Makes the opponent bounce higher and closer

Attack C = Downward chop = Makes the opponent fall down faster than normal + they can not tec. roll.


Take in to account the follow up abilities with normal juggles, ground attacks and wall combos, depending on the attack type, command complexity and what moves are at your disposal.

My first post says:
If you design the properties of the moves carefully,
you can calculate resulting combo damage like this.
This formula will treat hits all the same, damage would be dependent ONLY on the number of hits and their stregth.

Of course combinations of moves that allow a never ending juggle should be avoided.

High damaging moves could be designed to push the opponent far away, or to end the combo (with a plant for example);
so you won't be able to do just use the strongest move 10 times in a juggle. This is actually what is already done in MK:D.


The mentioned method will not scale damage to zero, it could mean that you will need three hits to do 1 damage when you are performing an infinite.
(Shujinkos Spear, Ice, Spear, Ice ... would kill you instead of being a time infinite)


Anyhow in MK:D most (easy) combos consist of a popup and a long (maybe stylebranch) combo, that has a mixture of weak and strong hits.
With Ermac you are more free in the way you perform combos.

This will change in MK:A because the combos will have air throws in them, and I don't know what will happen to style branch combos.

-Vile
You might be able to do style branch from empty hand to weapon or Weapon to E. hand.

Unless.....They just don't feel like setting that up for 60+ characters. Instead, just leaving basic combos for the individual styles.


I'm guessing the latter.
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boomboom
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08/31/2006 02:39 PM (UTC)
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How did you do this?! God almighty, you should help me in math class...
Well, I have to calculate supersonic airflow of jet engines and stuff,
I guess this is a reason why my mind somtimes needs to relax on a simpler matter.... grin
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boomboom
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I hate this place.

08/31/2006 08:35 PM (UTC)
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Simple !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I can't do damn decimal dividing in my classfurious, and you figure out the mathematics of Mortal Kombat Combos!? I swear! You Oughta help me in math....wow
LOL, just kidding;
but take into account that I am twice as old as you are ...
I learned a lot in the past half of my life!
(including Mortal Kombat, LOL)

Uranius

P.S.: This thread does not explain how the combo calculation of MK:D is done.
It explains how I want it to be done, for several reasons;
described in the Consequences... section.
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Toxik
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09/01/2006 06:25 PM (UTC)
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boomboom Wrote:
wowwowwowwowwowwowconfusedconfusedconfusedfuriousfurious
how did you do this?! God almighty, you should help me in math class...



We know the post is very impressive, but don't over use smilies.
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Quest2be1
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Moderator@MortalKombatUnited.com

09/19/2006 09:26 AM (UTC)
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I just checked this out. Nice stuff man. I see you are very intelligent. Interesting read for sure.
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boomboom
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I hate this place.

09/20/2006 03:12 PM (UTC)
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Toxik Wrote:
boomboom Wrote:
wowwowwowwowwowwowconfusedconfusedconfusedfuriousfurious
how did you do this?! God almighty, you should help me in math class...



We know the post is very impressive, but don't over use smilies.


Sorry...
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fabioo
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11/06/2006 09:45 PM (UTC)
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man u deserve a higher rank here at mko for ur work

respect
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