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3D Kombat Klassics

Discussing the 3D MK Klassics: Everything from MK4 to Armageddon.
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latvia101Posted: 11/10/2007 05:22 PMStatus ::


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how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

any ideas?

ThePredator151Posted: 11/10/2007 06:28 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Jet Lis' "Hero", with blood

1960-late 80s' Martial Arts movies mainly.

5 Deadly Venoms, Master of the Flying Guillotine, Drunken Master, Iron Monkey, Once upon a time in China...ect.


add bits of :

Silent Hill (suspence, fatality feel)

Resident Evil (Terror)

Devils Rejects (mercilessness)

The Matrix (action, adrenaline)

Transformers (action, Animation)

Dexter(Story) [t.v. show]

Batman Returns(story)

Avatar Last Airbender(elemental arts//elemental experimentation) [cartoon]

---

There are alot more obviously. Because nothing here is too "great" in the category I listed they'd have additives to Mk for.....but you get me I think.

The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 11/10/2007 06:47 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Imo, they should go with the Nolan-esque approach for the MK games. What I mean is, they should have the quality of the Batman movies from Christopher Nolan (Batman Begins as well as the upcoming sequel, The Dark Knight). With each of the next-gen installments, they should do what these new Batman movies are doing and use the theme of escalation, namely with things getting worse before they get better.

Solid storytelling and lack of retcons are important to me. Also, in the stories, death should have significance and consequence, otherwise, death will be pointless as we would expect resurrections and all that. This isn't to say that there shouldn't be any characters brought back from the dead. It's just that it should be done in a good way, having significance and consequence.


latvia101Posted: 11/10/2007 07:26 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

well, i mean as far as gameplay and areanas go. to me i liked the look and feel of mk2 as far as darkness goes

Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 11/10/2007 08:53 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

latvia101 Wrote:
well, i mean as far as gameplay and areanas go. to me i liked the look and feel of mk2 as far as darkness goes


That's something you should've specified in your initial post. By giving us a clearer idea of what you're talking about, it really helps. I'm not really going to get into arenas, at least not right now. However, to bring up the gameplay, I don't know how to make it "dark and serious" exactly. I just want the gameplay to be solid and balanced, containing all of the necessary elements to make for a good fighting system (e.g. wake ups, parries, throw escapes, counter hit, proper risk/reward system, etc.) and having those things done nicely.

King_RaidenPosted: 11/10/2007 10:01 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Instead of that gay emo darkness, make comic relief. Also, make it mature and funny, not kiddy shit.

Sub-Zero_7thPosted: 11/10/2007 10:23 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

King_Raiden Wrote:
Instead of that gay emo darkness, make comic relief.

Also, make it mature and funny, not kiddy shit.


Gay emo darkness? That doesn't make any sense. If you want it to be funny and comical, how the hell is it going to be serious?

latvia101Posted: 11/10/2007 11:03 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

i am sorry that i didn't really specify on the content, i had problems with my post concerning spacing

Smoke01Posted: 11/11/2007 05:58 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Seriousness would have to be based mainly on the gameplay. They would have to make it look very realistic, blood and everything. Also, if they were to make it tournament based again, then you should die after one defeat. No other fighting game has went by this yet, but if it is to be serious then it would have to be this way.

As for the darkness of the game, no other MK game has overcame the dark, mysterious feel of MK2. I doubt they will be able to make it again, because that's probably not the direction the team would want to go. But if they did, then it would have to follow the same design as MK2. We know, however, that MK2 took place in Outworld, and of course its untelling what realm, or realms, the next MK will take place in.

ThePredator151Posted: 11/11/2007 07:38 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

latvia101 Wrote:
well, i mean as far as gameplay and areanas go. to me i liked the look and feel of mk2 as far as darkness goes


First, when you say gameplay, you have to be sure to understand how technical that term is. Especially when you speak so vaguely of it while pertaining to a fighting game.

"Gameplay", is a term that most commonly pertains to the mechanics, or the system that moves can be performed in, once the game has been finished and we can play it. It's not just about the moves on a given characters list that we perform(kicks, punches and special moves). Not when we're talking about a fighting game.

Mechanics, or Gameplay, also pertains to animation. Which is also a blurred line because most people don't understand that animation heavily effects the mechanics of a game. If you've played MkA, a prime example of how animation effects mechanics, is how big a window there is when you "parry" your opponent. Or when you sidestep, and still are in that window to be hit. Those whole situations look worse and worse the more that the scenarios are encountered in real time. It becomes frustrating to the point of not even wanting to play the game on that merit alone.

_______

On another note, Mk2 wasn't exactly a "dark" game. Throughout all the Mk games, that one in particular is the most brightly colored, most vibrant game to come from the series. Well, actually then there is Mk3-T. Hell, Mk1 wasn't even that dark, there was only 2 1/2 arenas that were actually staged at night.(with a moon in the background somewhere...)

After those games, alot of the brightness, contrast, and gama were jeopardized in order to make the games actually look darker. Which was not necessary I feel.

So, for the darkness factor, I'd say I want them to:
Make "Death", or "Danger", or the "Threat of Destruction", or the Cruelty of Doom" more apparent.

This way, it doesn't matter what "darkness" the arenas, or the rest of the game has. You can make the most beautiful scenery appear "darker" by applying these factors to them.

Remember? You can die a horrible death......anywhere.

___________

Now, about seriousness in the Mk universe. We have to fell like "there is only one way", again. To do this, things like Concrete facts throughout the story have to be established again. How can we take the games' rating
(M = Mature) serious with all the retcons and inconsistencies in the story?
One of Mortal Kombats selling points for alot of people whether they are die hard fans or not.

Concrete Continuity is a must, Finishing//Conclusiveness (needless to say, but is not there) is a must.......You see, besides being able to go back to the select screen and pick the same character, if you die fighting....you're dead. And leave that alone.

Since this is Mortal Kombat, if you die in the storyline somewhere and you are one of the Mortals.....stay dead. Escaping deaths grasp should be so rare for a Mortal. Instead, what we have now are more than 3/4 the current roster with unfinished and un-investigated story lines, and some 10-15 of them who have died and come back to life in some way or another.

Now, while playing the game, let there be reasoning behind why a character uses a move, or wears a garment. Why do they sport a symbol? What is the power potential of any given character? Where's their limit? And is it possible that if this character sticks around, will they improve upon that skill? Make it a point to show the difference in a following game...see?

Also, I think there should be a wealth of Special moves and Fatalities in the game for each character. Gives a depth to them that we have never had in MK. The special moves could be illogical, but as long as they make sense for that particular character to have, we're golden.

Let's take Bo Rai Cho for instance. If his puke move was more graphic....um.....more disturbing than it was a joke move, it would have been more seriously excepted of that character(more of a purpose for why he's using it...Instead, it's a senseless ploy at humor). If were more tactical, aside from making the opponent slip on the ground it wouldn't have been such a joke.
The fact that it was a joke special move, soured the Fatality.
There was no graduation established from the special move, to the Fatality move. It didn't make sense that the Fatality would burn you alive, but the special move would only make you slip. More seriousness would have come from both those moves had the special move made you slip, and burned you slightly. Or, if the Fatality made you slip and break your neck violently...or something to that effect.

Take us through how Sub Zero is able to pull moistre from the air and turn it to ice. Or could someone please explain Scorpion and the harpoon? That sort of thing.

When a punch, kick, or weapon is used, let us see the effect of that sort of assault....but moreso in this next game...ect.

eh.

The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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King_RaidenPosted: 11/11/2007 09:25 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

How about seriousness too.

Make it like South Park, violent and funny, just put a moderate amount of seriousness, and don't make everyone dumb as hell either.

latvia101Posted: 11/11/2007 04:53 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

ThePredator151 Wrote:

On another note, Mk2 wasn't exactly a "dark" game. Throughout all the Mk games, that one in particular is the most brightly colored, most vibrant game to come from the series.
!Quote>




_______


eh.
on that note i have to disagree with you because although in mkd they included some of the arenas of mk2 (with better graphics i might add) they failed to duplicate the dark feeling you got in mk2 while fighting someone in most notably the living forest.

sonicherosfan1Posted: 11/11/2007 11:18 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Make it have the hellraiser feel to it.Stop with the cartoonish look to the last 3 games.Get back to basics and stuff that actually worked.Don't render barbie dolls for your game anymore.Take ninja gaiden violence and i dunno thats all i can think of.

Baraka407Posted: 11/12/2007 01:32 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Okay, outside of one person who actually referenced South Park as a possible inspiration for the next MK game (your choice, I just disagree with it), I think a vast majority of the hardcore fans want the next game to have a dark and mysterious vibe to it.

I think that there are several ways to accomplish this. Boon has alreasy said that the next game will be dark and gritty. That's fine, but MK has to be able to find what works and stick with it. By the end of the previous games, I had no idea where these weird places even were. There were industrial places, sektor's ship or whatever and a whole host of other places that just didn't go well together at all. If we're talking backgrounds, I'd stick with one theme, one style, and go with it. Don't put a subway in with hell, a church, a bell tower, a gothic pit type level ala MK3.

I've always thought that MK was at it's best when it was doing the asian style, but with a hint of darkness or foreboding to it. I think that every level should be dark as far as lighting goes, with either candles or dimly lit lanterns or old fashioned lamps inside, moonlight, lightning and rain, etc outside. You take that and you set it to eerie, asian style music that can rise and fall during the match, but is mostly unobtrusive and that's the kind of overall feel I'd go for in that department.

As for the characters. Some might hate this idea, but no more non-humans. Call me crazy, but this series is called Mortal Kombat, which to me implies human. I also don't think you're going to have a high level of drama or quality of storytelling if a plot twist happens between a tarkatan and a shokan for example. They can be from different realms perhaps, and there can be Gods etc, (even vampires or other things if they look exactly like humans or pass as human) but no lizard men or big blue onis. I always thought that the first MK game had it right in the character department. Some of the characters were mysterious (I don't even think they overtly stated in Rayden's bio that he was in fact a god), and they all had a real reason for being there. By the end of the last few games, when the whole tournament idea was somewhat abandoned, you never really had much of an idea why alot of the characters were even there.

Lastly, but just as important, is the story. Now I personally don't think that each character's special moves need to be fleshed out in the storyline, but this game series could definitely stand to do with some adult, grown up storytelling. Why was Havik in MK:D? Because he wanted to create chaos? Ummm.... Okay.

As others have said, this series in dire need of fluid storytelling. In other words, characters should have definitive, "this is what is happening" story arcs. There shouldn't be any ambiguity or question as to which endings really happened and which ones didn't by the time the next game comes around. They should all happen. It's called interweaving characters into a story. I think it's a trick that authors use.

On that note, it would be cool to have a begining cut scene, a middle cut scene and an ending cut scene. They don't all have to be CG. Maybe two of the three depending on the character. One character's begining might be a bit long, and words would be better for describing all that happens, or a maybe a narrator/disembodied voice might work. But I really think that the extra modes that the MK team should focus on for the new MK game should be a bigger create a character mode and (where I'm going with this) a large, full scale story mode.

If I beat this MK game and unlock all of the CG cut scenes, I should be able to watch them, fit together like a cohesive story that takes up about an hour and a half total. I should feel like I just watched a new MK movie. Characters can get involved with one another, there can be revelations, characters can die, all the while setting up the next MK game. Only this time, we know where we have been BEFORE the next game comes out, and then we find out when MK9 comes out, where we're actually going.

I'm not saying that would be easy. But I do think that it could be damn cool if they did it and did it well.


I also like the idea of one use characters. If you die, then that character's picture gets blacked out on the select screen and you can either exit to the title screen and start over from the begining or use a different character. However, I don't think that every character should be able to go to the final boss of the game. That's fine for arcade mode if you're just playing for coins or whatever, but not for story mode. In keeping with the whole "telling a story" idea here, I think that one or two characters could die at the hands of the final boss, or one character kills another, or some characters lose, or some characters get distracted by events that are going on that don't pertain directly to a fight (yes, certain matches could be interrupted by events, or maybe after a match that's specific to that acharacters story, something happens like a character gets kidnapped, trapped, they have to flee for some reason, they're chasing someone etc etc etc).

But yeah, great graphics, a foreboding mood that's not fake emo goth, but a real type of dark or gloomy, set in asian theme, realistic characters and top of the line storytelling (with great acting too!) would be the way I'd go.

ThePredator151Posted: 11/12/2007 04:21 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

latvia101 Wrote:
ThePredator151 Wrote:


On another note, Mk2 wasn't exactly a "dark" game. Throughout all the Mk games, that one in particular is the most brightly colored, most vibrant game to come from the series.


on that note i have to disagree with you because although in mkd they included some of the arenas of mk2 (with better graphics i might add) they failed to duplicate the dark feeling you got in mk2 while fighting someone in most notably the living forest.


You mis-interpret. We actually agree here.

"Color" can help create or project a "Feel". Therefor factually, how brightly colored MK2 was, has nothing to do with the "Feel" of darkness the game had....vs.... MkD where, the game was factually Colored dark, but failed to give that dark "Feel" because there wasn't as much a "danger" factor around you while you fought. This also contributes to how serious each game was or wasn't taken.

Get me?

For instance, take an irrefutable, lightly colored, and genuinely "Happy" setting. Lets go to......um, picture Sesame Street, Elmos world. (lol)

Irrefutable right? Well, kill someone there. Make it a horrible death with blood splattered everywhere.....Clean the mess up.

Then, let Elmo come back on and sing happy songs to our children knowing that someone was brutally murdered there. Add that the ghost of the victim could likely still be lurking around the set...

Feels dark and erie//spooky to the parents, and even the kids if they know about the murder right? Even though the scenery is brightly, and "happily" colored.
This is what Mk2 did more effectively than these later games.
(i.e. the hooks or the acid in the acid bath stage[I don't wanna get hooked, and I do not wanna go in that bright green water], the shadow priest, and that swirling red orange sky in the middle of the portal arena[I wonder if those floating guys with no legs can get me, and I do not wanna get sucked into that big hole in the sky], or the people popping out from behind actual living trees[who the fuck was that?!? and can those trees actually eat me?]. Let alone some guy popping out going "Whoopsy!" at the bottom of the screen.) All this going on at the same time I'm trying to kill my opponent.

These later games are actually colored darker....But the problem with that, is there was too much darkness, and when there's too much darkness, you get used to it quickly. Therefor they lack elements of danger even though they are factually colored dark. The core audience is a little older now too....and we aren't afraid of the dark.

You see?

To effectively create a "dark feel" now days, almost everything has to be visually safe, and or simply have a sense of security(nothings supposed to happen to me unless I loose ect ect).....What I think Mk should do, is violate that sense of security at any given time during the game. That sense that everything is "o.k." while you're fighting. To add to that, then throw in elements like that "feeling that you're being watched", or that "if you make the wrong move, you will be violently killed".


The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
- Lead Graphic Designer - Mortal Kombat Online -

:G-play :Story :F-Design :Cutout :Get Sig :Raiden :Fans [1] [2] :#LegendaryArts
BloodSplatter-ChainsawManPosted: 11/12/2007 11:21 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Yo, Baraka407. Quality stuff. If you need a reference to cut scenes and a continuous story, check Twisted Metal: Black and the TM series from TM1 to TM2 to Head-On. 3 and 4 are crap except for Rob Zombie, while Black and Small Brawl are of a separate continuity.
For another example, try Tekken. Some people get their ending without beating the big baddie, although a fair amount of the story is untold.

-Brad-Posted: 11/12/2007 02:57 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

It’s come to the point were death in MK is completely pointless. Now when someone dies, they’ll be back in time for dinner.

latvia101Posted: 11/12/2007 03:43 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

ThePredator151 Wrote:
latvia101 Wrote:
ThePredator151 Wrote:



On another note, Mk2 wasn't exactly a "dark" game. Throughout all the Mk games, that one in particular is the most brightly colored, most vibrant game to come from the series.




on that note i have to disagree with you because although in mkd they included some of the arenas of mk2 (with better graphics i might add) they failed to duplicate the dark feeling you got in mk2 while fighting someone in most notably the living forest.




You mis-interpret. We actually agree here.



"Color" can help create or project a "Feel". Therefor factually, how brightly colored MK2 was, has nothing to do with the "Feel" of darkness the game had....vs.... MkD where, the game was factually Colored dark, but failed to give that dark "Feel" because there wasn't as much a "danger" factor around you while you fought. This also contributes to how serious each game was or wasn't taken.



Get me?



For instance, take an irrefutable, lightly colored, and genuinely "Happy" setting. Lets go to......um, picture Sesame Street, Elmos world. (lol)



Irrefutable right? Well, kill someone there. Make it a horrible death with blood splattered everywhere.....Clean the mess up.



Then, let Elmo come back on and sing happy songs to our children knowing that someone was brutally murdered there. Add that the ghost of the victim could likely still be lurking around the set...



Feels dark and erie//spooky to the parents, and even the kids if they know about the murder right? Even though the scenery is brightly, and "happily" colored.

This is what Mk2 did more effectively than these later games.

(i.e. the hooks or the acid in the acid bath stage[I don't wanna get hooked, and I do not wanna go in that bright green water], the shadow priest, and that swirling red orange sky in the middle of the portal arena[I wonder if those floating guys with no legs can get me, and I do not wanna get sucked into that big hole in the sky], or the people popping out from behind actual living trees[who the fuck was that?!? and can those trees actually eat me?]. Let alone some guy popping out going "Whoopsy!" at the bottom of the screen.) All this going on at the same time I'm trying to kill my opponent.



These later games are actually colored darker....But the problem with that, is there was too much darkness, and when there's too much darkness, you get used to it quickly. Therefor they lack elements of danger even though they are factually colored dark. The core audience is a little older now too....and we aren't afraid of the dark.



You see?



To effectively create a "dark feel" now days, almost everything has to be visually safe, and or simply have a sense of security(nothings supposed to happen to me unless I loose ect ect).....What I think Mk should do, is violate that sense of security at any given time during the game. That sense that everything is "o.k." while you're fighting. To add to that, then throw in elements like that "feeling that you're being watched", or that "if you make the wrong move, you will be violently killed".





I see.....yeah you're right about many of the elements needed here to create a darker mortal kombat

TzarChasmPosted: 11/13/2007 12:35 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

First off, in my opinion, Boon and friends must immediately dispense with all humor in the series. No comical finishers, no joke characters (Cage, Bo Rai Cho, etc.). The special moves can be as over-the-top as necessary—I have no problem with unexplainable fireballs, teleports, even odd things like air throws—but nothing should evoke a gleeful smile when its used on your enemies—only winces and widened eyes. Goofy fatalities like Darius's Picasso and Kano's skeleton pull need to go the way of the dodo, as well. Every finisher in the game must have the same grave effect on the player that we all felt the first time we killed a man with a crowbar in Manhunt. Remember when video game violence slapped you in the face and left you startled? Yeah, Mortal Kombat started all of that, and it's about time they get back there at the forefront of things.

I want character storylines (and endings) as sinister as the best offerings from Twisted Metal Black; stories of violent men and women whose heart's desire corrupt them from within and lead them through a hailstorm of brutality—only to be their own undoing in the end. Sudden twists in the endings that are as cruel as the people they belong to, endings that bring movies like Se7en and 8MM to mind when you see them unfold.

The audio has to come in full force and never let up. No bargain-bin voice acting will do here—I want dialogue to be sparse, but delivered with conviction and balls. Moreover, the screams and grunts of combat must be convincing. When a character plunges his hand into another's chest, ripping out their still-beating heart (I'm sorry, but this fatality should NEVER disappear from the series), I want the scream blasting through my speaker to sound as if it was recorded from the real thing happening at Midway's studios and slapped into the game like some kind of sick joke. I want people that burn to shriek for a good thirty seconds as the flames lick their skin, and I want to see them char on camera. The sounds of weapons tearing through flesh and thudding dully into bone should actually be recorded in a meat factory where men shred carcasses into microphones, lending a disturbing authenticity to it all. Each punch should sound like it just broke the victim's face, yet without falling victim to the cheesiness you hear in movies like Enter the Dragon where everything is so overly-done that it becomes laughable at best. That's a fine line to walk, but it's not impossible.

Experiments in the science of creating fear through audio should be taken into consideration, especially when designing background music and ambient sound effects to accompany finishing moves. Movies like The Exorcist used lots of very low-frequency sound waves to inflict the listener with waves of unease that they couldn't really explain, and Mortal Kombat 8 would do well to take cues from pioneers in that field.

Finishing moves should be catastrophic and brutal. When your heart is torn out and you fall to the floor as your scream fades, there should be an obvious, gaping hole in your chest that floods the gravel beneath you with blood. As a man tips your head back and slashes your throat, the camera should zoom in to show your eyes wide and wet in fear, a genuinely desperate look on your face, and then your mouth tightening in a silent grimace as your flesh gives way beneath the knife. And then he lets go and kicks you in the back of the head, slamming your face into the ground as you bleed to death, wheezing and gasping. Once again, Manhunt leads the pack in convincing death animations and sounds. While the game's engine is quite dated and never looked photorealistic, nobody that's seen the machete kills in that game can forget the wet gurgling noises the hunters made as you repeatedly hacked into their necks while they wheezed, sputtered, and died. Pay attention, Mortal Kombat—there's a lot to be learned here.

No more silly finishers where people eat an uppercut and end up a half-mile off-screen; instead, bring it down to earth and show us some wickedness like curb stomping, evisceration, disembowelment, throat-slashing, dismemberment, and at least a good old Brutality-style beating. Weapon brutalities are a MUST. Imagine if Jax in MK4 had used his spiked club to kneecap his victims and then spend a good fifteen seconds slamming them in the back, the face, the arms, over and over and over, just mercilessly clubbing them to death. That would've left an impression, no? Try it with the Unreal 3 engine, see how you like it. ^^ Every finisher in MK8 should leave you with the sensation you had the first time you ran someone through with a chainsaw in Gears of War. Every single one of them. (They should also feature fully fleshed-out internal organs as Gears did, for the Fatalities that sever torsos and rip open chest cavities.) As an afterthought, bring back Baraka (or someone with a similar weapon) and let us impale people again. The first time I saw that in MK2 I almost wept; it was beautiful and horrible.

Finally, regarding audio and finishers, let's keep it a tad realistic, please. When I stomp someone's knee out from under them to soften them up for the kill, I want to hear them scream like I would in real life if you did the same to me. When they're laying on the ground, make them writhe in agony much like their real-life counterparts as you prepare to bring your foot down on their skull, or impale them, or whatever it is that you're about to do. Just make them look miserable, helpless, and weak—and then destroy them utterly. But at the moment when any real human being would most certainly be dead, SILENCE THEM, for crying out loud! I can't be the only one who's frowned as his decapitated victim kept screaming long after their head was torn off, right? There's nothing intimidating about a guy whose voice echoes on and on after he's dead, but if you had a man screaming for mercy as you dragged your blade across his chest and then he suddenly went dead silent mid-shriek as you plunged it through his face, THAT would be frightening. The suddenness of it all would do the trick on its own.

I could go on here for hours about character and arena design, fighting animations and how I think the combat engine itself should operate, but I think this is a decent start. Mortal Kombat should abandon the tongue-in-cheek tone it once carried and embark on a new, twisted journey into a hybrid of abnormal psychology and Spanish Inquisition torture. It should reclaim its throne as the king of gaming violence and leave little room for opposition. And it should be cruel enough to make even its biggest fan feel dirty for loving every second of it.

Thoughts?

Baraka407Posted: 11/13/2007 10:42 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

BloodSplatter: You know, Twisted Metal Black was exactly what I was thinking when referring to the story. I like how each story is broken up into three CG cut scenes for each character. If the Twisted Metal team (I think it was Incog Inc, wasn't it?) can do it, why not the MK team?

I don't think I'd want to see that amount of order to it though. 3 per person, one in the beginning, one before or after fighting Minion and then the ending (if I remember correctly, it's been a while since I've played TM:B). Maybe a character only has two for example, and I'd like them to come at times when it's relevant for that particular character. That kind of goes along with the unpredictability of story mode, like what I was talking about. Not every character will get to the final boss. Other things will happen to them during the tournament.

As for the fatalities Tzar, I'm not so sure that you and I have the same idea on what would be dark and serious for MK. On some points, you and I completely agree. I'm not a fan of the humor and I think that the joke characters are a waste of space (I liked the idea of a Cage type character in the beginning, but they ruined him by not changing anything about him through the entire series. Same moves since MK2 and same ending as well for that matter).

As far as the pain/suffering aspect goes though, I'm not sure I see the point. Don't get me wrong, I know you're not alone in this idea. I've read other posts that talk about similar ideas. So I'm not bagging on your idea, I simply disagree with it. To me, it's all been done before. We've all seen the curb stomp scene in American History X. We've all seen the soddering Iron/Eye Puss scene in Hostel. Why should MK try to gross people out with blood bubbling screams and torture? Sure, alot of people think of the finishing moves and that's what jumps to mind immediately. I guess I've never seen it that way.

I always saw it as a signature for a particular character. Kung Lao would decapitate you with his razor sharp hat, Sub Zero would freeze you and then shatter you. Scorpion would set you on fire with his hell spat flames. To me, those were the best types of fatalities because they were a humiliation from THAT specific character. Baraka would impale you with his blades, Even fatalities that could be associated to other characters, but fit that specific character's abilities worked for me. Jax's arm rip made sense because he looked so freakin strong. Same goes for Sheeva's skin rip.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I enjoy fatalities that are specific to characters. That's their signature style or something that could specifically be attributed to them. Having moves that basically amount to torture, just because next gen technology allows for more realism doesn't do it for me because like I said, we've seen it all. MK isn't going to out-disgust any other games because there's really no such thing any more. MK doesn't have a throne that they need to reclaim because in my mind, the fatality has been and always will be an MK trait. They are the original shock game and I'd rather see them go for a creative route for each new character than make a futile attempt at finding new ways to maim, dismember, or torture people.

I can get behind the whole "making it feel real" thing, with the fear and the correctly timed screams etc, but brutality like Jax beating someone for 15 seconds with a spiked club doesn't do it for me. Put that club in any other character's hands and you wouldn't know the difference. Again, I'm not saying that fatalities can't or shouldn't be brutal, but I'll always think that MK is at it's best when it incorporates a signature style for each character, and that includes the fatalities. I agree with you on how freakin awesome I thought Baraka's impale fatality was in MK2 (obviously he's one of my favorite characters and that's a reason why), but could you have ever pictured any other character in MK2 doing that move? No, obviously not.

That fatality was only what, 7 seconds maybe? I don't need a 30 second indescriminate torture moment at the end of each match to know I'm playing a next gen game. I don't need a CG cut scene or anything like that. Just give me a good, well thought out, character specific signature kill. Scorpion slashing his victim with his harpoon spear and cutting him in half, Shang Tsung draining your soul from your body, Rayden electrocuting you until you exploded, that's the type of creativity I'd like to see from the next MK game because it adds to each character specifically, it's not just some been there, done that hack a thon that's intended to gross me out because now it's more vivid in next gen.

Maybe there's some middle ground here, what do you think Tzar?


TzarChasmPosted: 11/14/2007 01:13 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

I think we're closer in mindset than you realize, actually. See, I agree that Fatalities should be character-specific not only in the animations, but in their relevance, as well. The characters I referenced—Jax, for example—were mentioned because they happened to have the weapons and/or characteristics in prior games that I was thinking about at the time. Since Boon's made it clear that MK8 should be a new starting point for the series, I don't actually expect to see Jax or Baraka back again, so I was just mentioning possibilities for future characters based on what's come and gone. I would argue, however, that there is a certain fittingness to that club in certain characters' hands—Dhramin, for example.

The reason I want the Fatalities to be as horrible as I described isn't really because I'm as much of a gorehound as you'd suspect (I abhor the the Hostel movies, for example, and refuse to watch them), but because I think it would allow MK to compete with more modern games that have stolen its spotlight, as well as taking a tremendous step towards that "gritty and dark" look Boon and friends were talking about. I'm afraid that if it's not taken utterly seriously we'll see another round of fart humor (which I absolutely HATE with a raging passion) and "lol-alities" in MK8, which would disgust and alienate me as a fan. Plus, I figure if you're going to kill people, why not do it right? They need not all be real-life things that can be mimicked in the back yard with tools found in the garage, but there should be enough of a realism there to rekindle the sense of the forbidden that we had the first time we pushed F, D, F, LP. (Ah, nostalgia...)

I figure that since the U3 engine has proved itself quite capable of a very cinematic and intimate portrayal of violence, such as the chainsaw kills in Gears of War, why not build upon that and use it for a game that once led the pack in such excess? Why not keep in the internal organs that we had so much fun jiggling with the shotgun after blowing off a Boomer's head? Why not allow for cutting enemies' torsos wide open, rather than just the old and boring split-across-the-waist-then-fall-over-dead? Haven't we seen enough Fatalities where nine animations from as many characters all lead to the exact same outcome? (Guy uppercuts girl, girl loses head; Girl kisses ninja, ninja's head explodes; Ninja slashes American Indian, American Indian loses head; American Indian axes Army guy, Army guy loses head; Army dude stomps on a lizard's head, lizard loses head; Lizard eats enemy's head, enemy loses head; etc.) I think with a more realistic approach taken to the violence in the kills, and the flexibility of newer tech, we could see character-specific kills that inflict damage according to what's on-screen and don't result in the same old rehashed crap that makes you feel like picking different characters is just palette-swapping as far as Fatalities are concerned.

As far as the length of the Fatalities is concerned, I always felt like a five-second kill was pretty brief payoff for some of the fights I'd had to go through to earn it. I'm sure it's an issue not everyone agrees upon, but I'd at least like it if each character had "shades" of Fatalities that were longer and more brutal depending on conditions that could range from, say, longer button inputs (risk/reward in that you run the chance of blowing the Fatality timer if you screw it up once) or not losing a round prior to killing your opponent, etc. I think it would be cool to include the Brutalities again as a means of *really* showing your contempt for an opponent that tried to cheesedick you with a broken special move (Dairu, anyone?) and ended up being stomped to death for it. There's no rule that says they all need to be 30 seconds any more than there is a law restricting them to 5, now is there?

So while we disagree on the necessity of the violence, we at least agree that there should be a wide range of available options, a much more fleshed-out storyline with truly wicked influence, and it should all be character-specific and somehow meaningful. I can respect that.

Your turn. ^_^

latvia101Posted: 11/15/2007 06:00 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

Thanks for your ideas guys, and yes the Unreal 3 engine will prove to be a valuable tool to help create that dark and vicious feeling.

firesnakePosted: 11/15/2007 07:50 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

They need to change the enviorment and the look of the characters in the last game they look to cartooney. They need music to fit with it to. But the most important thing that they need to change is the gameplay.

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latvia101Posted: 11/15/2007 09:21 PMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

firesnake Wrote:
They need to change the enviorment and the look of the characters in the last game they look to cartooney. They need music to fit with it to. But the most important thing that they need to change is the gameplay.


Very true.

fatalitymasterPosted: 11/17/2007 06:10 AMStatus ::


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RE: how to make mk 8 dark and serious?

i agree with all of your points but i am in the middle of what you are all saying they do need to bring back signiture fatalities with the characters style but they can also make those signitures very grusome and realistic.

one thing that no one has touched on yet is the fact that throughout the new MK's since DA when you punch someone it doesnt really look like it hurt that much (my opinion) in the new MK i want it to be like when you punch someone they feel it and you feel it too so like you get the feeling that it hurt. i want the sort of thing they had in the new fight night with the slow - mo although it doesnt need to be slomo it would be just as effective in real time i just feel as though it needs to feel more real and more like that your fist has just connected with his or her face.

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