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Discussing Anything and Everything That isn't MK.
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bleedPosted: 11/26/2006 10:52 PMStatus ::


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Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

I thought it would be interesting to read thoughts on how real martial arts could be translated to a fighting game, in a way that is balanced with other styles.

We've see what can be done with Virtua Fighter, Tekken, DOA, MK........

What's your take on this?

Ideas for moves

What would work
How
Why
How does it look

etc.

It doesn't have to be 100% realistic, it can be like movies, games.

Realistic, exaggerated, super natural


Have at it


Example:

Move idea for a drunken boxer.

A way to make negative frames on hit be useful.

1 = L. stumbling uppercut to a forward stumble jab to the gut.

The recovery on the R. jab is long, but has an auto counter feature that causes or leads to decent damage.

Actions during the recovery stumble.

Against a High punch = Slap the limb away and in a smooth motion do a spinning back elbow to the neck and a L. power punch to the back of the rib cage. = Stuns the opponent letting you get a free hit.

Against a Med kick = In a smooth motion, lift the opponent's leg up in the air, making them fly and land hard on their back, or making them do a full flip landing face down.

Against a low kick = Slap the leg to the side and in a smooth motion, turn around and fall back on top of the opponent then roll off.

Thread Closed
GhostDragonPosted: 11/27/2006 12:19 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

Choreography could be ONE starting point.

In the screenplay I'm writing, I've been watching literally dozens of movies that have varying degrees of choreography that would give me ideas of how I want my fight scenes to turn out, beit I'm not a choreography professional, though I know martial arts. Static movements on in a scene or in a game make the action feel almost jagged and difficult to follow. It's interesting that in a FMV you can see that there wasn't much of an issue with making this possible, however in some games it's the noticeable things that don't feel right. Someone mentioned to me that it looks as if the styles were simply made up, though most are actual styles that do exist.

Making the movements more realistic in forms of application would have to mean that the beginning to end would have to be realized as faithfully as possible. Which means that it would have to be fluid. Now, granted, both in film and in a fantasy environment such as games, idealized and imagined choreography is like the icing on the cake that satisfies the sweet tooth. It's that needed amount of junk food that we like from in our fighting games. But c'mon... there should never be so much that makes you want to lock yourself in the bathroom and sit on the toilet for 45min trying to expel most of the stuff that made your stomach hurt in the first place.

Watching movies like Fighter in the Wind or Meals on Wheels should give fighting game makers a little more insight into how to make the interaction and transition from one technique to another better (attack --> block-->reprisal-->block-->reprisal-->repeat).

Example 1
Example 2 (Skip to 2:08)
Example 3

Now, of course this would lead into frame rate, which I will defer to someone more knowledgeable on this, but it can be done I feel.


Ghostdragon


Ghostdragon - Fan Submission Director ghostdragon@mortalkombatonline.com

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
http://www.mortalkombatonline.com

"Tis true my form is something odd, But blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole, Or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul, The mind's the standard of the man."

-Isaac Watts
Thread Closed
GrizzlePosted: 11/27/2006 12:39 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

I'd have motion sensors and actually punch and kick towards the opponent who fights a certain way. That is the closet to bringing real martial arts into a video game.

Thread Closed
bleedPosted: 11/27/2006 01:07 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

You'd get too tired playing that way though.

Even if it's just wiggling the game pad, the motion sensors cause a problem with fighters because the game needs to be playable with an arcade stick.


There are a number of ways to make the smooth flowing combat possible in real time play.


1 = Block animations leading to special counter animations if a certain button is pressed at the right time.

2 = Regular attacks that can flow with specific block animations

3 = Reversals that automatically block a full combo before doing a counter.
(Feng Wei in Tekken 5 has something very similar to this)

4 = Throws that are actually quick combos instead of grapples.

the throw escape for this type of throw would be a block ~ counter attack.

The thrower can block the counter attack if timed correctly.

5 = Reversals can also be quick combos instead of grapples.

Block to counter hit

Block to short combo that can be escaped by a parry, side step, reversal, block etc....

6 = Block animations in general would be designed to happen against specific attacks. These would include, blocks, parries, swaying, side steps, flips, tumbles, spins, teleports, etc.

Depends on your timing of course.

If you block early or just in time, you'll do something fancy.

If you block late, you'll do a more generic block.

If you have your back to a wall, you'll cover up more instead of doing flashy stuff.


All this could still work with slower characters, animations would just be changed to fit them.


-------------------------------------------------
More ideas

1 = What about light attacks not being able to stop heavy attacks. They might alter the effect, but not cancel their animation.

This might also work like auto block attacks during the first frames of an animation.

You take the hit, but the attack still comes out. Example = Low kick VS a right punch. One does not stop the other usually.

This would tone down poking quite a bit and make moves like flying kicks more useful.


2 = Should throws be generic grabs like in video games, or should they depend on the technique.

Most throws in fighting games would actually be reversals in real life.

3 = What about making low blocks use legs and evasions instead of crouching?

b+blk = (H,M) standing guard

db+blk = (M,L) standing guard ( Does not stop low attacks )

d+blk = (H,L) duck ( Has the ability to stop some low attacks = Paul's d+4, but leaves you vulnerable to higher damage mids because they would hit your head / face) = risk VS reward

Defense would look more realistic and make things like Low to high combos easier to connect with.

Thread Closed
TonyTheTigerPosted: 11/27/2006 01:20 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

I think the biggest problem with translating martial arts into a game is the mandatory fantasy of the game itself. The fact that the game has to have set rules (what beats out what, etc.) causes problems when trying to accurately represent something. Honestly I would figure the best bet would be to watch a lot of demonstrations and actual fights from all those styles and try to spot a trend. See what techniques are the most common and/or most effective. Then translate those in particular into in-game moves. That way the in-game style will at the very least resemble what it's supposed to look like.

TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

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Thread Closed
GhostDragonPosted: 11/27/2006 01:43 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

TonyTheTiger Wrote:
Honestly I would figure the best bet would be to watch a lot of demonstrations and actual fights from all those styles and try to spot a trend. See what techniques are the most common and/or most effective. Then translate those in particular into in-game moves. That way the in-game style will at the very least resemble what it's supposed to look like.


See, there lies the problem that a lot of programmers have. Watching demonstrations and fights alone with an un-trained eye will only give you the generic understanding that would most likely yield to a non-expansive in-game fighting method that would perhaps make the movesets limited. Would a programmer know the philosphy of each individual style enough to conceptualize the many posibilities that can come from... say sidestepping a straight punch with the near hand and having the far hand in a certain position? Could lead to a joint lock, punch, throw (to the ground), redirecting throw, anything.


Ghostdragon


Ghostdragon - Fan Submission Director ghostdragon@mortalkombatonline.com

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
http://www.mortalkombatonline.com

"Tis true my form is something odd, But blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole, Or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul, The mind's the standard of the man."

-Isaac Watts
Thread Closed
bleedPosted: 11/27/2006 01:53 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

That's where research, live reference and maybe some actual practice would come in to play.

Thread Closed
ChromePosted: 11/27/2006 01:55 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

Coreography is the bane of the conception of martial arts, especially the movies. The attack-parry-attack-parry and so on stuff simplz does not exist.

Real demonstration of martial arts

http://kardrendje.hu/files/ringen.avi
http://kardrendje.hu/files/dagger1.avi
http://kardrendje.hu/files/ringen2.avi


Sig1 photo Chrome-sig_zps5a62b1b1.jpg
Thread Closed
bleedPosted: 11/27/2006 02:27 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

Too much realism becomes boring IMO, it's the main reason why I tire of realistic fighters very quickly.

A good middle ground can be found. Have the grappling and movie style choreography, just don't go over board on either end.

Don't have fights that are all on the ground.

Don't have back and forth sequences happen too often or be too long.

Thread Closed
ThePredator151Posted: 11/27/2006 02:31 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

You all beat me to my "brilliant" idea......"Choreography"...

In the beginning of Mk, I was one who anticipated that's where Mk was going, what with the "realistic" fighting styles/characters and all.

I want to play like a choreographed movie.....but be and video-game.

Make sence?

I'll ellaborate on it in a bit...

The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
- Lead Graphic Designer - Mortal Kombat Online -

:G-play :Story :F-Design :Cutout :Get Sig :Raiden :Fans [1] [2] :#LegendaryArts
Thread Closed
bleedPosted: 11/27/2006 02:43 AMStatus ::


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Nationality::Puerto Rico
RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

Chrome Wrote:
Coreography is the bane of the conception of martial arts, especially the movies. The attack-parry-attack-parry and so on stuff simplz does not exist.



Real demonstration of martial arts



http://kardrendje.hu/files/ringen.avi

http://kardrendje.hu/files/dagger1.avi

http://kardrendje.hu/files/ringen2.avi





I see it like this

Choreography is the bain in the conception of martial arts in a practical stand point but not so much in aesthetics.

I this case the video game is entertainment so aesthetic value holds more importance.

Not necessarily greater, but more.

Thread Closed
bleedPosted: 11/27/2006 02:46 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

ThePredator151 Wrote:
You all beat me to my "brilliant" idea......"Choreography"...



In the beginning of Mk, I was one who anticipated that's where Mk was going, what with the "realistic" fighting styles/characters and all.



I want to play like a choreographed movie.....but be and video-game.



Make sence?



I'll ellaborate on it in a bit...



Something closer to the FMV intros in MKD and MKA / kung fu movies / real fights.

That's what I'm thinking.

Thread Closed
GhostDragonPosted: 11/27/2006 02:46 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

bleed Wrote:
That's where research, live reference and maybe some actual practice would come in to play.


Which would require the time needed to inlist the aid of several or more martial artists and/or to do the much extensive research. Time of which... hmmmm... 'certain' fighting game programmers might not have to put the needed dedication to developing a fully realized representation of martial arts application.



Anyhoo... concerning the blocking scheme, a standing block and a forward/backward block could be imployed.

:: Standing Block would simply be (Block) w/o pressing forward or back. Now, the animations could show the character absorbing the attacks w/ little to no movement to avoid the blows by covering up and blocking as best they can the areas recieving them. The normal form of blocking would result in block damage that MK employs.

:: Retreating Block would be (B+Block) and the animations would show a character going through an array of blocking and dodging techniques while moving backward and/or left or right w/o block damage. Now this form of blocking could open the possibility for counters or parrys depending if the combo string of the opponent has a technique in it that can be vulnerable to them. Which leads to an Advancing or Counter Block.

:: Advancing or Counter Block would be (F+Block). The animations would show a character blocking a technique and the opponents animation would correlate with what was countered. If his step in shin kick was countered by the other doing one of his own but faster, the attacker would stagger back almost falling down. Tekken 5 did a great job with such animations. I hope they manage to have people counter in mid-combo like in a similar fashion.

This could also apply to fighting w/ weapons.

Example 1
Example 2 (Small window)

Ghostdragon


Ghostdragon - Fan Submission Director ghostdragon@mortalkombatonline.com

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
http://www.mortalkombatonline.com

"Tis true my form is something odd, But blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole, Or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul, The mind's the standard of the man."

-Isaac Watts
Thread Closed
ThePredator151Posted: 11/27/2006 03:01 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

bleed Wrote:






Something closer to the FMV intros in MKD and MKA / kung fu movies / real fights.



That's what I'm thinking.


Right.

I feel it should be fluid, but practical at the same time. The video(Jackie Chan) GD put up was really close to what I'm looking for gameplay wise from a fighting game. You can tell what styles define them, but it doesn't limit their reaction to a given situation....and is fluid.

Characters' styles defined by their particular martial arts practice, but not limited to in the video game. I say that because character persona plays a part in a video game to me (Stances and basic movement shouldn't be so stiff for example).

Not so "chuncky" and "stuck" by our buddies..... the "frames", even though I understand the importance of.

I'm not technical, but I can see it. It's like a re-occuring tooth-ache to the eye.

GhostDragon Wrote:


Those are great examples of with weapon fights. I can see a "rythm" in what they're doing that could allow the translation into the video game confines.

Alot of it is flare/fenness but that just adds to the excitement of watching the thing. Gives motivations to want to play something like that. Nothing out now does that for me. Even some of our best fighters....


The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
- Lead Graphic Designer - Mortal Kombat Online -

:G-play :Story :F-Design :Cutout :Get Sig :Raiden :Fans [1] [2] :#LegendaryArts
Thread Closed
RickfordPosted: 02/18/2009 07:32 PMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

I agree with that. I think the idea of bringin an extremely realistic martial arts presentation would be excellent. Each fighter having an almost exact comparison to real martial arts, but with that mk fantasy look. Btw take Kobra for instance, theres ur UFC inspiration, ohh I bet the mma gurus would love that!!!

Hello!
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travelingwilburyPosted: 02/18/2009 08:07 PMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

Why the hell did you bump a 3 year old thread? Big no no

Thread Closed
GhostDragonPosted: 02/19/2009 12:46 AMStatus ::


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RE: Translating real martial arts to a fighting game (brain storming)

Rickford Wrote:


Please refrain from bumping old threads, especially of this age.


Ghostdragon - Fan Submission Director ghostdragon@mortalkombatonline.com

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
http://www.mortalkombatonline.com

"Tis true my form is something odd, But blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole, Or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul, The mind's the standard of the man."

-Isaac Watts
Thread Closed
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