yeah from what I hear its very difficult to beat those two, which should be the case anyhow since they are the sub boss....errr bosses. Oh and in respnse to your sig, a friend of mine CAN actually lick his elbow. Nobody of normal dimensions could do that but he is very lanky, is double jointed and has a fairly long tongue. Anyway, I dunno why I brought that up, I'll shut up now.