Acknowledging the differences between the races/genders (long post)
General Discussion
Pages: 1
Acknowledging the differences between the races/genders (long post)
This isn't me saying that any of the ethnicities, and/or either genders are superior or inferior to another. Behaviorally, intellectually and morally speaking, none are better nor worse. But physically, there are differences.
What this thread is about though, is about the impact of said differences in entertainment. Movies, games, comics, and so on. As in, one might think that people of a certain race and/or gender, might make better protagonists, because of their voices, their facial expressions, and their appearance. And that it's okay to have these preferences, so long as it's not out of bigotry.
In my case, for example, I like that Olivia Pope in the Scandal TV series, is played by Kerry Washington, not just because of her acting talent, but also in part because she's a black woman (and I'm a white straight guy, fyi). It is so refreshing to have one in the lead role. Her voice, her facial expression, are those specific to a black woman. Not all black women look or sound the same, but those traits of Kerry that I've mentioned are still specific to a black woman, and they make Kerry's performance powerful. A talented white actress could have played Olivia, but she wouldn't look or sound the same, at all. Whether she'd be better or not, well we'll only know if the show gets remade, and even then it'd still depend in who the white actress in question is. What she definitely wouldn't be though, is as refreshing as a black female protagonist.
Some people are so damn politically correct that everything I just said would give them many heart attacks in a row. They're so paranoid about bigotry that to even enjoy seeing someone of a different race and/or gender in the lead role is in itself bigotry against that same race/gender in their eyes, apparently.
These people act as if we've already overcome bigotry, and each times someone suggest a non-white woman in a lead role, or as a character idea for a fighting game, they'll go on saying race (and gender) doesn't matter. What they don't realize is that if we want equality between the races and both genders, we ironically need to ask more more minorities and women in leading roles, as playable characters in games, etc. As it is, these people seem completely blind to the abundance of white protagonists (male ones, especially) in a supposedly progressive media, and if you reminded them of that, they'd go "huh?!!" and say "So they're white. So what?!! Race doesn't matter dammit!".
So, with all of that said, do you think we should specifically demand more minorities (female minorities, especially) in leading roles, and do you actually have preferences when it comes to a protagonist's race/gender, that have nothing to do with relatability or bigotry?
What this thread is about though, is about the impact of said differences in entertainment. Movies, games, comics, and so on. As in, one might think that people of a certain race and/or gender, might make better protagonists, because of their voices, their facial expressions, and their appearance. And that it's okay to have these preferences, so long as it's not out of bigotry.
In my case, for example, I like that Olivia Pope in the Scandal TV series, is played by Kerry Washington, not just because of her acting talent, but also in part because she's a black woman (and I'm a white straight guy, fyi). It is so refreshing to have one in the lead role. Her voice, her facial expression, are those specific to a black woman. Not all black women look or sound the same, but those traits of Kerry that I've mentioned are still specific to a black woman, and they make Kerry's performance powerful. A talented white actress could have played Olivia, but she wouldn't look or sound the same, at all. Whether she'd be better or not, well we'll only know if the show gets remade, and even then it'd still depend in who the white actress in question is. What she definitely wouldn't be though, is as refreshing as a black female protagonist.
Some people are so damn politically correct that everything I just said would give them many heart attacks in a row. They're so paranoid about bigotry that to even enjoy seeing someone of a different race and/or gender in the lead role is in itself bigotry against that same race/gender in their eyes, apparently.
These people act as if we've already overcome bigotry, and each times someone suggest a non-white woman in a lead role, or as a character idea for a fighting game, they'll go on saying race (and gender) doesn't matter. What they don't realize is that if we want equality between the races and both genders, we ironically need to ask more more minorities and women in leading roles, as playable characters in games, etc. As it is, these people seem completely blind to the abundance of white protagonists (male ones, especially) in a supposedly progressive media, and if you reminded them of that, they'd go "huh?!!" and say "So they're white. So what?!! Race doesn't matter dammit!".
So, with all of that said, do you think we should specifically demand more minorities (female minorities, especially) in leading roles, and do you actually have preferences when it comes to a protagonist's race/gender, that have nothing to do with relatability or bigotry?
When it comes to television/film, I say race really shouldn't matter unless the role calls for it.
For examples:
1. Existing characters: If the actor/actress is portraying and existing character, than they should have as many features of that character as possible. We should never see Storm being played by a white woman. lol
2. Character profile: In some tv shows/films, a character would have a specific profile that calls for him/her to be of a certain ethnicity. If the character is of immediate Japanese descent, he/she shouldn't be played by someone from India.
That's all I got.
For examples:
1. Existing characters: If the actor/actress is portraying and existing character, than they should have as many features of that character as possible. We should never see Storm being played by a white woman. lol
2. Character profile: In some tv shows/films, a character would have a specific profile that calls for him/her to be of a certain ethnicity. If the character is of immediate Japanese descent, he/she shouldn't be played by someone from India.
That's all I got.
Riyakou Wrote:
When it comes to television/film, I say race really shouldn't matter unless the role calls for it.
For examples:
1. Existing characters: If the actor/actress is portraying and existing character, than they should have as many features of that character as possible. We should never see Storm being played by a white woman. lol
2. Character profile: In some tv shows/films, a character would have a specific profile that calls for him/her to be of a certain ethnicity. If the character is of immediate Japanese descent, he/she shouldn't be played by someone from India.
That's all I got.
When it comes to television/film, I say race really shouldn't matter unless the role calls for it.
For examples:
1. Existing characters: If the actor/actress is portraying and existing character, than they should have as many features of that character as possible. We should never see Storm being played by a white woman. lol
2. Character profile: In some tv shows/films, a character would have a specific profile that calls for him/her to be of a certain ethnicity. If the character is of immediate Japanese descent, he/she shouldn't be played by someone from India.
That's all I got.
Some good points. I agree about Storm, but perhaps not for the same reasons. Storm is one of the few iconic black gals in comics. She was designed in a time where people openly complained about her being black. So she has to remain black, in order to help bring equality between the races and genders. And to spite bigots, ha ha.
Same for Wonder Woman, though in her case, it's just her gender that matters, not her race imo. But seeing as she's Greek, I can understand why she'd be white. But her being a strong woman is what's most important about her. There's be no point to redesigning the character as a man, because then you'd have someone who doesn't significantly differ from Superman. Superman can be black, or even a woman (with a different name, duh) and still stands for everything the character stands for.
Insisting on making certain characters a specific race, or gender, helps, or should help spread the message, that the race and genders are equal in pretty much all ways save the physical ones, through equal representation. And it's okay to have physical preferences (not necessarily sexual ones), as long as it's not out of bigotry. If we were living in a better world, many more people of varying tastes would have something to enjoy.
DG1OA Wrote:
Some good points. I agree about Storm, but perhaps not for the same reasons. Storm is one of the few iconic black gals in comics. She was designed in a time where people openly complained about her being black. So she has to remain black, in order to help bring equality between the races and genders. And to spite bigots, ha ha.
Same for Wonder Woman, though in her case, it's just her gender that matters, not her race imo. But seeing as she's Greek, I can understand why she'd be white. But her being a strong woman is what's most important about her. There's be no point to redesigning the character as a man, because then you'd have someone who doesn't significantly differ from Superman. Superman can be black, or even a woman (with a different name, duh) and still stands for everything the character stands for.
Insisting on making certain characters a specific race, or gender, helps, or should help spread the message, that the race and genders are equal in pretty much all ways save the physical ones, through equal representation. And it's okay to have physical preferences (not necessarily sexual ones), as long as it's not out of bigotry. If we were living in a better world, many more people of varying tastes would have something to enjoy.
Riyakou Wrote:
When it comes to television/film, I say race really shouldn't matter unless the role calls for it.
For examples:
1. Existing characters: If the actor/actress is portraying and existing character, than they should have as many features of that character as possible. We should never see Storm being played by a white woman. lol
2. Character profile: In some tv shows/films, a character would have a specific profile that calls for him/her to be of a certain ethnicity. If the character is of immediate Japanese descent, he/she shouldn't be played by someone from India.
That's all I got.
When it comes to television/film, I say race really shouldn't matter unless the role calls for it.
For examples:
1. Existing characters: If the actor/actress is portraying and existing character, than they should have as many features of that character as possible. We should never see Storm being played by a white woman. lol
2. Character profile: In some tv shows/films, a character would have a specific profile that calls for him/her to be of a certain ethnicity. If the character is of immediate Japanese descent, he/she shouldn't be played by someone from India.
That's all I got.
Some good points. I agree about Storm, but perhaps not for the same reasons. Storm is one of the few iconic black gals in comics. She was designed in a time where people openly complained about her being black. So she has to remain black, in order to help bring equality between the races and genders. And to spite bigots, ha ha.
Same for Wonder Woman, though in her case, it's just her gender that matters, not her race imo. But seeing as she's Greek, I can understand why she'd be white. But her being a strong woman is what's most important about her. There's be no point to redesigning the character as a man, because then you'd have someone who doesn't significantly differ from Superman. Superman can be black, or even a woman (with a different name, duh) and still stands for everything the character stands for.
Insisting on making certain characters a specific race, or gender, helps, or should help spread the message, that the race and genders are equal in pretty much all ways save the physical ones, through equal representation. And it's okay to have physical preferences (not necessarily sexual ones), as long as it's not out of bigotry. If we were living in a better world, many more people of varying tastes would have something to enjoy.
Not to detract from your point but...this is a pretty known open criticism to entertainment media like movies and games. A large part of why you see male white protagonists is that the media in question is trying to appeal to those audiences to get you to view/purchase in said media. So at it's heart, it's a business decision and not one born of artistic integrity to the symoblism of a character/story.
When I'm able to in video games I typically make black female protagonists (Saints Row, Mass Effect 3, etc) because I enjoy playing/seeing a narrative with an atypical protagonist. Also...regarding Scandal. I've just recently delved into the series (4-5 episodes into season 2) and I really hate how they've written Olivia to have this inexplicable hang up over the President. It really stands out in such a well-written show and speaks to the problems mentioned by the OP in that this white man with power somehow just magically earns the adoration of such a strong and independent black woman. It feels contrived, lazy, and pandering.
Mojo6 Wrote:
When I'm able to in video games I typically make black female protagonists (Saints Row, Mass Effect 3, etc). Also...regarding Scandal. I've just recently delved into the series (4-5 episodes into season 2) and I really hate how they've written Olivia to have this inexplicable hang up over the President. It really stands out in such a well-written show and speaks to the problems mentioned by the OP in that this white man with power somehow just magically earns the adoration of such a strong and independent black woman. It feels contrived, lazy, and pandering.
When I'm able to in video games I typically make black female protagonists (Saints Row, Mass Effect 3, etc). Also...regarding Scandal. I've just recently delved into the series (4-5 episodes into season 2) and I really hate how they've written Olivia to have this inexplicable hang up over the President. It really stands out in such a well-written show and speaks to the problems mentioned by the OP in that this white man with power somehow just magically earns the adoration of such a strong and independent black woman. It feels contrived, lazy, and pandering.
With a show such as Scandal, I don't think race is really a factor, but that the viewers simply made it a big deal.
How I see the show is simply the show's concept itself: A 'scandal fixer' for the White House ironically ends up in dangerous scandals of her own.
This concept could have been for either gender of any race. The only reason the character is a black woman is because the person the show is based on, Judy Smith, happens to be a black woman.
@Mojo6: What you're saying about appealing to the predominently white mainstream crowd just highlights one point: that most people are just too obsessed with "relatability" and need someone similar to them in nearly all ways, including skin color and gender. Only personality should matter to them when it comes to relatability, but no, race and gender has to matter too. The need for that kind of relatability is a weakness that needs to be overcome as far as I'm concerned. Then diversity might become profitable, because the mainstream crowd would have gotten more open-minded.
@Riyakou: It really isn't that big a deal for you to have a black woman in the lead role, something that's only just now starting to become a little less rare? I can appreciate not wanting to define people by their race, but being excited about Olivia Pope's race is not any kind of bigotry. It is refreshing to have a black woman in the lead role. It should be celebrated.
You might find this insulting, but it seems that your way of not appearing bigoted is to take a passive stance towards the media. How are women and minorities, female minorities especially, ever supposed to get more opportunities in Hollywood, and any kind of entertainment, if we don't start asking for more of them in leading roles, and so on? Why do you think it took so long before we saw more black female protagonists? It was a combination of cowardice and bigotry on the media's part, and a supposedly liberal society that never asks for anything more than throwaway token characters that wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for political correctness.
"Race doesn't matter". Of course it doesn't, at least when it comes to personality (physical attributes being a matter of personal taste). But you're never going to prove it unless we show that it doesn't matter. And we do that by yeah, demanding more diversity in our protagonists, not through cheap token characters.
@Riyakou: It really isn't that big a deal for you to have a black woman in the lead role, something that's only just now starting to become a little less rare? I can appreciate not wanting to define people by their race, but being excited about Olivia Pope's race is not any kind of bigotry. It is refreshing to have a black woman in the lead role. It should be celebrated.
You might find this insulting, but it seems that your way of not appearing bigoted is to take a passive stance towards the media. How are women and minorities, female minorities especially, ever supposed to get more opportunities in Hollywood, and any kind of entertainment, if we don't start asking for more of them in leading roles, and so on? Why do you think it took so long before we saw more black female protagonists? It was a combination of cowardice and bigotry on the media's part, and a supposedly liberal society that never asks for anything more than throwaway token characters that wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for political correctness.
"Race doesn't matter". Of course it doesn't, at least when it comes to personality (physical attributes being a matter of personal taste). But you're never going to prove it unless we show that it doesn't matter. And we do that by yeah, demanding more diversity in our protagonists, not through cheap token characters.
DG1OA Wrote:
@Mojo6: What you're saying about appealing to the predominently white mainstream crowd just highlights one point: that most people are just too obsessed with "relatability" and need someone similar to them in nearly all ways, including skin color and gender. Only personality should matter to them when it comes to relatability, but no, race and gender has to matter too. The need for that kind of relatability is a weakness that needs to be overcome as far as I'm concerned. Then diversity might become profitable, because the mainstream crowd would have gotten more open-minded.
@Mojo6: What you're saying about appealing to the predominently white mainstream crowd just highlights one point: that most people are just too obsessed with "relatability" and need someone similar to them in nearly all ways, including skin color and gender. Only personality should matter to them when it comes to relatability, but no, race and gender has to matter too. The need for that kind of relatability is a weakness that needs to be overcome as far as I'm concerned. Then diversity might become profitable, because the mainstream crowd would have gotten more open-minded.
Lol man you're preaching morality and open-mindedness while condemning others as "weak". That's pretty judgemental and really won't appeal to someone who is "ignorant" to social awareness issues. That's why you see "Pro-lifers" screaming across the picketing dividers at "Pro-choicers". When everyone is screaming at one another no one is heard.
"Relatability" is synonymous with "Profitability" from the lense of entertainment so if you're wanting to point fingers, you might want to level them at the industry and how it functions. These are systemic problems. People wanting to make a difference can do so with their wallets. Passively ignoring movies/games/entertainment that you feel supports ideology that contradicts your own morality. Or rather, be active in supporting grassroots projects (games, music, movies) via kickstarter, social media advertising, podcasts, webcasts, etc.
Entertainment bias won't change until the numbers do.
About Me
0
DG1OA Wrote:
Only personality should matter to them when it comes to relatability, but no, race and gender has to matter too.
Only personality should matter to them when it comes to relatability, but no, race and gender has to matter too.
This sounds an awful lot like "looks don't matter, it's what's on the inside that counts".
Which is a lie we let people tell to make them feel better about some physical imperfection they have. "Why can't I find a boy/girlfriend? I know I'm fat, but I'm a nice person!"
The truth is, even if we didn't judge people by what they look like (which is ridiculous, because sight is the first of the five senses that will ever come into contact with a new person, so looks are ALWAYS going to be what makes the first impression), looks ARE part of your personality, because they have a strong deciding factor on what's on the inside. Your personality is created by a LOT of outside influences, and how you feel about your appearance and how others feel about your appearance are pretty big ones.
Going back to the "fat" example, sure, lots of people are just born with bad genes, but it's just as often, if not moreso, an indicator of an unhealthy degree of gluttony and/or sloth, which ARE on the inside, and are not attractive qualities. As another example, you say race doesn't matter, but the culture you're raised in does, and that's often based on your ethnicity. Who your role models are, what kind of media you like, what kind of slang you use, a lot of these things are given to you by your parents, neighbors, and friends as you grow up. Who we are is who we are nurtured into being by the environment we develop in.
A lot of people even wear indicators of who they are and what they're interested in on the outside. Ever seen a "bro" in a too-tight polo shirt with a popped collar? How about a comic book fan in a shirt with a character's logo on it? If this sort of thing didn't matter, then the entire concept of "costume design" when creating fictional characters wouldn't exist, would it? The whole purpose is to use visual elements to show what kind of character the character is.
What we look like, both the parts we choose to display and the parts we have no say in, is an important part of who we are.
DG1OA Wrote:
@Riyakou: It really isn't that big a deal for you to have a black woman in the lead role, something that's only just now starting to become a little less rare? I can appreciate not wanting to define people by their race, but being excited about Olivia Pope's race is not any kind of bigotry. It is refreshing to have a black woman in the lead role. It should be celebrated.
You might find this insulting, but it seems that your way of not appearing bigoted is to take a passive stance towards the media. How are women and minorities, female minorities especially, ever supposed to get more opportunities in Hollywood, and any kind of entertainment, if we don't start asking for more of them in leading roles, and so on? Why do you think it took so long before we saw more black female protagonists? It was a combination of cowardice and bigotry on the media's part, and a supposedly liberal society that never asks for anything more than throwaway token characters that wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for political correctness.
"Race doesn't matter". Of course it doesn't, at least when it comes to personality (physical attributes being a matter of personal taste). But you're never going to prove it unless we show that it doesn't matter. And we do that by yeah, demanding more diversity in our protagonists, not through cheap token characters.
@Riyakou: It really isn't that big a deal for you to have a black woman in the lead role, something that's only just now starting to become a little less rare? I can appreciate not wanting to define people by their race, but being excited about Olivia Pope's race is not any kind of bigotry. It is refreshing to have a black woman in the lead role. It should be celebrated.
You might find this insulting, but it seems that your way of not appearing bigoted is to take a passive stance towards the media. How are women and minorities, female minorities especially, ever supposed to get more opportunities in Hollywood, and any kind of entertainment, if we don't start asking for more of them in leading roles, and so on? Why do you think it took so long before we saw more black female protagonists? It was a combination of cowardice and bigotry on the media's part, and a supposedly liberal society that never asks for anything more than throwaway token characters that wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for political correctness.
"Race doesn't matter". Of course it doesn't, at least when it comes to personality (physical attributes being a matter of personal taste). But you're never going to prove it unless we show that it doesn't matter. And we do that by yeah, demanding more diversity in our protagonists, not through cheap token characters.
Olivia Pope being a black woman is significant in terms of television history, yes.
However, it has nothing to do with the story itself. I'm all for having a diverse set of protagonists in television, but I don't want it to happen for the sake of diversity. That is what shows cowardice. I want to see a black person lead a show simply because he/she is good enough for the part, not because they're black.
My refusal to make a big deal out of race actually shows my courage. I don't allow the sensitive subject of race to influence my preferences or decisions. I don't allow it to determine who I want to see lead a show. I am brave enough to look beyond skin tone and ethnic background and look for what really matters: good actors.
My hope is that more people come to realize that race should not matter, unless a story calls for it.
Riyakou Wrote:
Olivia Pope being a black woman is significant in terms of television history, yes.
However, it has nothing to do with the story itself. I'm all for having a diverse set of protagonists in television, but I don't want it to happen for the sake of diversity. That is what shows cowardice. I want to see a black person lead a show simply because he/she is good enough for the part, not because they're black.
My refusal to make a big deal out of race actually shows my courage. I don't allow the sensitive subject of race to influence my preferences or decisions. I don't allow it to determine who I want to see lead a show. I am brave enough to look beyond skin tone and ethnic background and look for what really matters: good actors.
My hope is that more people come to realize that race should not matter, unless a story calls for it.
DG1OA Wrote:
@Riyakou: It really isn't that big a deal for you to have a black woman in the lead role, something that's only just now starting to become a little less rare? I can appreciate not wanting to define people by their race, but being excited about Olivia Pope's race is not any kind of bigotry. It is refreshing to have a black woman in the lead role. It should be celebrated.
You might find this insulting, but it seems that your way of not appearing bigoted is to take a passive stance towards the media. How are women and minorities, female minorities especially, ever supposed to get more opportunities in Hollywood, and any kind of entertainment, if we don't start asking for more of them in leading roles, and so on? Why do you think it took so long before we saw more black female protagonists? It was a combination of cowardice and bigotry on the media's part, and a supposedly liberal society that never asks for anything more than throwaway token characters that wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for political correctness.
"Race doesn't matter". Of course it doesn't, at least when it comes to personality (physical attributes being a matter of personal taste). But you're never going to prove it unless we show that it doesn't matter. And we do that by yeah, demanding more diversity in our protagonists, not through cheap token characters.
@Riyakou: It really isn't that big a deal for you to have a black woman in the lead role, something that's only just now starting to become a little less rare? I can appreciate not wanting to define people by their race, but being excited about Olivia Pope's race is not any kind of bigotry. It is refreshing to have a black woman in the lead role. It should be celebrated.
You might find this insulting, but it seems that your way of not appearing bigoted is to take a passive stance towards the media. How are women and minorities, female minorities especially, ever supposed to get more opportunities in Hollywood, and any kind of entertainment, if we don't start asking for more of them in leading roles, and so on? Why do you think it took so long before we saw more black female protagonists? It was a combination of cowardice and bigotry on the media's part, and a supposedly liberal society that never asks for anything more than throwaway token characters that wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for political correctness.
"Race doesn't matter". Of course it doesn't, at least when it comes to personality (physical attributes being a matter of personal taste). But you're never going to prove it unless we show that it doesn't matter. And we do that by yeah, demanding more diversity in our protagonists, not through cheap token characters.
Olivia Pope being a black woman is significant in terms of television history, yes.
However, it has nothing to do with the story itself. I'm all for having a diverse set of protagonists in television, but I don't want it to happen for the sake of diversity. That is what shows cowardice. I want to see a black person lead a show simply because he/she is good enough for the part, not because they're black.
My refusal to make a big deal out of race actually shows my courage. I don't allow the sensitive subject of race to influence my preferences or decisions. I don't allow it to determine who I want to see lead a show. I am brave enough to look beyond skin tone and ethnic background and look for what really matters: good actors.
My hope is that more people come to realize that race should not matter, unless a story calls for it.
Sounds like you're saying that I'm for affirmative action. I'm not. Of course actresses/actors should be cast based primarily on their talent. Thing is though, is that I doubt most leading roles are designed with a "color-blind" mindset. Meaning, that the people auditioning for the leading role are probably all the same race and gender. I find it unlikely, in most cases, that non-white actresses/actors auditioned to play a protagonist that ended up being portrayed by a white individual. And even if that were the case, well, Hollywood isn't exactly known for it's courage, anyway.
By demanding more minorities, female minorities especially, we're increasing the chances of them being cast in the leading roles, so even if a white person ended up getting them, the minorities had a chance. I wasn't suggesting that talented white actreses/actors should be turned down in favor of less talented minorities, but that minorities of equal talent get equal opportunities to shine. The reason we're not getting that, is certainly in part because there isn't enough demand from the mainstream crowd.
I'd probably still enjoy shows like Scandal and Nikita if their protagonists were played by white women. But they just wouldn't be as refreshing. That wouldn't be a problem if we were already living in a fairer world.
Pages: 1
© 1998-2025 Shadow Knight Media, LLC. All rights reserved. Mortal Kombat, the dragon logo and all character names are trademarks and copyright of Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.