The validity of religions *long post*
First I must say, I do not think there is anything wrong in believing in a creator, or creators, of the universe. I myself am open to the idea, because I don't feel there is definite proof of the opposite. However, there are also no proof that one or several deities do exist, so I'm just as open to the idea that they don't.
What I find ridiculous are the many other aspects of religion that imo aren't required to hold such a belief. Take homophobia, for instance, or sexism. Why should the belief in a creator require you to care what goes on in other people's bedrooms? Along with other absurdities such as not working on sundays, no sex before marriage (or worse, no sex at all), the denial of scientific facts if they contradict the bible, the quran or any of these stupid religious books, etc.
I know what some believers will say. "Homosexuality is an abomination! Leviticus 20:13 (or 18:22) says so!". Like I said, the bible is invalid to me. And even if it was, even if the christian god was real, here's the thing: I don't care if he exists. It doesn't make him anymore deserving of worship. He's just a sexist, homophobic and sociopathic loser to me.
I could go on, but I feel this post will do for now. Why can't christians, muslims etc just believe in a creator, and cast aside all the unnecessary stuff, especially the prejudices, unless they (the prejudices) aren't completely (or at all) religious. Which still doesn't make them anymore valid.
What I find ridiculous are the many other aspects of religion that imo aren't required to hold such a belief. Take homophobia, for instance, or sexism. Why should the belief in a creator require you to care what goes on in other people's bedrooms? Along with other absurdities such as not working on sundays, no sex before marriage (or worse, no sex at all), the denial of scientific facts if they contradict the bible, the quran or any of these stupid religious books, etc.
I know what some believers will say. "Homosexuality is an abomination! Leviticus 20:13 (or 18:22) says so!". Like I said, the bible is invalid to me. And even if it was, even if the christian god was real, here's the thing: I don't care if he exists. It doesn't make him anymore deserving of worship. He's just a sexist, homophobic and sociopathic loser to me.
I could go on, but I feel this post will do for now. Why can't christians, muslims etc just believe in a creator, and cast aside all the unnecessary stuff, especially the prejudices, unless they (the prejudices) aren't completely (or at all) religious. Which still doesn't make them anymore valid.
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Yeah, that was a pretty short post lol
Anyways, in terms of the whole homophobic/sexist deity thing, in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, the deity is the creator, and therefore it's a sort of his rules only thing. As the creator, he/she/it is entitled to do whatever they wish with their creations, just as any artist here on Earth is. They make the rules; if they say something is wrong, it's wrong.
I would look at it this way: The deity is the government that makes the laws. The deity's followers are the enforcers of those laws, the police if you will. While it's obvious that not everyone will obey those laws, followers of that deity feel it is their obligation to uphold the deity's laws as best they can. Obviously they should focus on themselves first, but it only makes sense that they try to make others obey these laws as well. And then of course there are instances of "police brutality," where these enforcers go to far.
I'm not trying to criticize you at all with this next question, but when you say if a deity DOES exist but you don't care what they think because it doesn't agree with your own beliefs, how do you rationalize that? As I stated above, a deity who created something would have the right to tell its creation what to do and what not to do, and therefore the right to punish its creation for not doing as it was told.
I understand the problems people have with certain commandments given by God in the Bible, but when you look at it from the point of view that IF God is the creator of all life, He has a right to do with at He pleases, I think it make it much easier to understand.
Anyways, in terms of the whole homophobic/sexist deity thing, in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, the deity is the creator, and therefore it's a sort of his rules only thing. As the creator, he/she/it is entitled to do whatever they wish with their creations, just as any artist here on Earth is. They make the rules; if they say something is wrong, it's wrong.
I would look at it this way: The deity is the government that makes the laws. The deity's followers are the enforcers of those laws, the police if you will. While it's obvious that not everyone will obey those laws, followers of that deity feel it is their obligation to uphold the deity's laws as best they can. Obviously they should focus on themselves first, but it only makes sense that they try to make others obey these laws as well. And then of course there are instances of "police brutality," where these enforcers go to far.
I'm not trying to criticize you at all with this next question, but when you say if a deity DOES exist but you don't care what they think because it doesn't agree with your own beliefs, how do you rationalize that? As I stated above, a deity who created something would have the right to tell its creation what to do and what not to do, and therefore the right to punish its creation for not doing as it was told.
I understand the problems people have with certain commandments given by God in the Bible, but when you look at it from the point of view that IF God is the creator of all life, He has a right to do with at He pleases, I think it make it much easier to understand.
It's not very complicated. If the creator of the entire universe tells you to be sexist and that he'll be pissed with you if you're not, then you best be motherfuckin' sexist, because that dude can make things really, really hard for you if he doesn't like what you're doing. Whether or not being sexist or homophobic or whatever else is actually necessary is beside the point; the point is, don't annoy someone who you know will fuck you up. Questioning a being theoretically so much more intelligent and perceptive than yourself is futile if you know that you can never achieve at least an equal level of intellect or perception.
If the laws are stupid, they do not deserved to be obeyed, no matter how powerful the one(s) who made them. As for the Hell concept, since we can't prove whether or not it exists, then how do you know we're not all heading to a hellish afterlife no matter what we do anyway? For all we know, almost all of us damned ourselves by using the left foot. Only people lacking a left foot, or wheelchair bound individuals would be safe. Or they may go to a different type of hell. Or nothing would happen. It's too unknowable.
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Yeah, I'm an athiest.
Bezou Wrote:
Most intelligent people are.
zephyrwestwind Wrote:
Yeah, I'm an athiest.
Yeah, I'm an athiest.
Most intelligent people are.
A lot of idiots are atheists, too. Unfortunately, no one seems to really have a corner on stupidity.
DG1OA Wrote:
I could go on, but I feel this post will do for now. Why can't christians, muslims etc just believe in a creator, and cast aside all the unnecessary stuff, especially the prejudices, unless they (the prejudices) aren't completely (or at all) religious. Which still doesn't make them anymore valid.
I could go on, but I feel this post will do for now. Why can't christians, muslims etc just believe in a creator, and cast aside all the unnecessary stuff, especially the prejudices, unless they (the prejudices) aren't completely (or at all) religious. Which still doesn't make them anymore valid.
You may as well just ask why people can't just stop being prejudiced, which is like asking them why they can't just stop breathing, eating, mating, defecating, destroying themselves and each other, etc... It's just a fundamental part of human nature and human behavior. People do shit that doesn't make sense because people don't make sense. People smoke, do lethal drugs, eat fast food, have unprotected sex, lock themselves into abusive or unfulfilling relationships, buy shit they don't need, etc. When you take all of that into consideration, it shouldn't really come as much of a surprise that they also care about what people are doing behind closed doors, deny truths that are proven beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt, and make unflattering assumptions about one another. That's just the way it is.
About Me
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Not wondering why we're here, what created us, or where will we go.
It's none of my business.
It's none of my business.
I don't really see a point in dabbling in the validity of religion, it's about faith, not verifiable truths.
I also don't think the modern world should be ruled by things written thousands of years ago.
I'm Agnostic and while I'm not sure on matters of religion, it doesn't really matter to me. People can believe what they want to, but I certainly have no intention of doing so.
I also don't think the modern world should be ruled by things written thousands of years ago.
I'm Agnostic and while I'm not sure on matters of religion, it doesn't really matter to me. People can believe what they want to, but I certainly have no intention of doing so.
About Me
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Religion gives hope to millions of people. Almighty Science forbid we have that.
Bezou Wrote:
No hope is better than false hope. These people are dedicating their only lives to working towards the false hope of a life beyond this one. What the fuck is hopeful about such a huge waste of time?
SubMan799 Wrote:
Religion gives hope to millions of people. Almighty Science forbid we have that.
Religion gives hope to millions of people. Almighty Science forbid we have that.
No hope is better than false hope. These people are dedicating their only lives to working towards the false hope of a life beyond this one. What the fuck is hopeful about such a huge waste of time?
Biologically it is not.
You want to have a good example how even the most broken things you can hold onto have more merit that wanton nihilism, ask Hideaki Anno.
Even if I am lead to no reward at all, at least I was honest and tried. That is alot more useful than most atheists that basically do nothing constructive beyond work for society and
Surrendering to nothing, lack of belief for the sake of justifying someone's lack of initiative to get up from the floor have no right in my eyes to claim anything. Our minds are not only hormonally programmed to strive for self preservation, but to, as all animals and lifeforms based on carbon, to procreation. Nihilism is not creative, I am not oposed to anything that equalizes homosexuals with straight people, but homosexuality is not procreative biologically. HELL, even the most proactive in historical homosexuality, the greeks have advocated that homosexuality should be shunned because society cannot function or procreate (read Platon and Aristoteles).
And just to ask: what is different between atheism and religious wherebeing? Both are basically the same: societies that gather and justify the participants way of life by numbers according to a certain philosophy.
But the most astonishing thing of all: most of us are victim of our insecurity concerning our existential angst or questions in life. Those are not questions. Whatever your belief is, the very last thing I would bother with would be to act snobbish and call out others who do not think like me. I simply have no interest in what you, or why you think you believe in what. Belief is a personal question that is set in society. Belief is the psychological function that enables us to function as beings to build society.
Same as ants, but much more advanced than hormonally coded obedience toward the hive. And in that sense, atheism is no different than religion, the question wether a deity exists is completely aside the point if you question it's usefulness.
TL, DR: if I believe in God, and die and I am right, yay for me. If I am wrong, and there is only oblivion, too late, and you wouldn't even regret anything, as you would be nonexistant. Even a debile would know that a simple risk calculation would factor towards religion. HOW religious people or atheist people behave however is another problem indeed.
On a sidenote: alot of you toss around the word Hope etc. so easily, well, suffice to say that most of you probably never had to live through situations where whatever chance you might even remotely see as beneficial would be a Godsent (or chancesent for nonbelievers). Especially if said situation comes directly from your action or inaction. Think about this.
I don't need religion to have hope. If anything, it'd ruin my life, not enhance it. Most religions put a strong emphasis on pointless sacrifices. I feel greatly sorry for some of the boys who were circumsised purely for the sake of stupid religious traditions.
On the topic of death, I wouldn't mind an afterlife of eternal bliss (so long as it was MY kind of bliss), but a definitive death is nowhere near as grim it's made out to be. If you completely cease to exist, then while there is no happiness, there is also no suffering. All the pain you've endured, rewarded with eternal rest. You wouldn't be reunited with lost loved ones (at least not literally) but you wouldn't care, because you've ceased to be. That to me is much more reassuring than hell or reincarnation. In the latter's case, I fear being reincarnated as the wrong kind of person.
Again, believers could just believe in their own god(s) and their own afterlife if it gives them such hopes. No need to be a christian, muslim, jew etc. Thing is, most religious people do not have enough imagination to come up with their own ideas. They want validation, and can only find it in a herd-like mentality, which organized religions absolutely adore.
On the topic of death, I wouldn't mind an afterlife of eternal bliss (so long as it was MY kind of bliss), but a definitive death is nowhere near as grim it's made out to be. If you completely cease to exist, then while there is no happiness, there is also no suffering. All the pain you've endured, rewarded with eternal rest. You wouldn't be reunited with lost loved ones (at least not literally) but you wouldn't care, because you've ceased to be. That to me is much more reassuring than hell or reincarnation. In the latter's case, I fear being reincarnated as the wrong kind of person.
Again, believers could just believe in their own god(s) and their own afterlife if it gives them such hopes. No need to be a christian, muslim, jew etc. Thing is, most religious people do not have enough imagination to come up with their own ideas. They want validation, and can only find it in a herd-like mentality, which organized religions absolutely adore.
Chrome Wrote:
, I am not oposed to anything that equalizes homosexuals with straight people, but homosexuality is not procreative biologically. HELL, even the most proactive in historical homosexuality, the greeks have advocated that homosexuality should be shunned because society cannot function or procreate (read Platon and Aristoteles).
, I am not oposed to anything that equalizes homosexuals with straight people, but homosexuality is not procreative biologically. HELL, even the most proactive in historical homosexuality, the greeks have advocated that homosexuality should be shunned because society cannot function or procreate (read Platon and Aristoteles).
So much ignorant crap in your post, but this was what I wanted to address most at the moment.
It's not everybody's goal to procreate. Life is not just about reproduction. I'm a straight guy and I do not want kids. Homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality are not choices, but even if they were, so what? Not everyone makes the same choices. They aren't choices though, like I already said. People won't cease having babies. As a matter of fact, they've had too many of them, and aren't showing any signs of stopping anytime soon. Religion can be largely thanked for that, with it's stance on birth control, abortion, among other things.
DG1OA Wrote:
So much ignorant crap in your post, but this was what I wanted to address most at the moment.
It's not everybody's goal to procreate. Life is not just about reproduction. I'm a straight guy and I do not want kids. Homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality are not choices, but even if they were, so what? Not everyone makes the same choices. They aren't choices though, like I already said. People won't cease having babies. As a matter of fact, they've had too many of them, and aren't showing any signs of stopping anytime soon. Religion can be largely thanked for that, with it's stance on birth control, abortion, among other things.
Chrome Wrote:
, I am not oposed to anything that equalizes homosexuals with straight people, but homosexuality is not procreative biologically. HELL, even the most proactive in historical homosexuality, the greeks have advocated that homosexuality should be shunned because society cannot function or procreate (read Platon and Aristoteles).
, I am not oposed to anything that equalizes homosexuals with straight people, but homosexuality is not procreative biologically. HELL, even the most proactive in historical homosexuality, the greeks have advocated that homosexuality should be shunned because society cannot function or procreate (read Platon and Aristoteles).
So much ignorant crap in your post, but this was what I wanted to address most at the moment.
It's not everybody's goal to procreate. Life is not just about reproduction. I'm a straight guy and I do not want kids. Homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality are not choices, but even if they were, so what? Not everyone makes the same choices. They aren't choices though, like I already said. People won't cease having babies. As a matter of fact, they've had too many of them, and aren't showing any signs of stopping anytime soon. Religion can be largely thanked for that, with it's stance on birth control, abortion, among other things.
Itg is not everybody's goal to procreate. Society cannot exist, sustained, without procreation. I wasn't implying that the world was going to end because we let the gay take root, obviously. Biologically speaking those who aren't going to procreate are useless. That isn't a verdict, that is a simple fact from only one prespective: innumeration of the species.
And no, homosexuality is not just genetical predisposition. It can be, or it can be not. Your personal stance on wether you want to procreate or not does not invalidate the fact that procreation is the cornerstone of the human race, and by that, all human societies (sects, certain religions that prohibit procreation deal with the spiritual part, a buddhist monk may not have children after he is a monk, but that doesn't mean that buddhists and buiddhist monks refuse to ackopwledge that sex is what keeps the human world alive).
Btw, what gave childbirth, marriage a legal form in civilization (cohesion), the catholic church, what insititution started the first childcare initiative in Europe, the christians. What religion promotes childbirth, basically all historical religions. Just because you have isues with the contemporary questions, doesn't mean that you have exact knowledge of the overarcing stance and the philosophy of said religion, of which that particular question is but a smaller part. On a sidenote, it is not overpopulation itself what hinders humanity, it is overpopulation with an uneven amount of distributed resources. Among other things.
These problems aren't two sided coins, these are rubic cubes of problems.
And obviously all religions have the same stance on birth control, abortion, etc. They aren't different at all.
Wow, yet more ignorant crap.
You can be useful in ways other than procreation. Inventions, for example. Brilliant scientists do not need fertility to come up with something amazing. You also have people with causes, such as those who fight for racial or gender equality. I could mention so much more examples, but I don't have much time here.
But since you make a big deal about procreation, let me ask you: Have you had one, or several kids yet? Or are you one of these "useless" people you talk about?
You can be useful in ways other than procreation. Inventions, for example. Brilliant scientists do not need fertility to come up with something amazing. You also have people with causes, such as those who fight for racial or gender equality. I could mention so much more examples, but I don't have much time here.
But since you make a big deal about procreation, let me ask you: Have you had one, or several kids yet? Or are you one of these "useless" people you talk about?
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DG1OA Wrote:
Wow, yet more ignorant crap.
You can be useful in ways other than procreation. Inventions, for example. Brilliant scientists do not need fertility to come up with something amazing. You also have people with causes, such as those who fight for racial or gender equality. I could mention so much more examples, but I don't have much time here.
But since you make a big deal about procreation, let me ask you: Have you had one, or several kids yet? Or are you one of these "useless" people you talk about?
Wow, yet more ignorant crap.
You can be useful in ways other than procreation. Inventions, for example. Brilliant scientists do not need fertility to come up with something amazing. You also have people with causes, such as those who fight for racial or gender equality. I could mention so much more examples, but I don't have much time here.
But since you make a big deal about procreation, let me ask you: Have you had one, or several kids yet? Or are you one of these "useless" people you talk about?
He's saying that if people stop having children the human race will die, as such it is the foundation of human life. Its a simple biological fact.
As for the religion topic all I have to say is I hate religion, and I dont pretend to know what the hell god is if there is one. All I know is without religion, DOOM and DIablo would not exist. so on that note: yay religion.
Religion isn't bad, the people in it make it bad.
Religious extremists are, to me, the most evil of all religious people, despite doing what they do in the good name of their respective deity(ies).
Ironically, many Atheists are worse than the extremist. They bash those who take in a theistic belief, and ridicule them, calling them weak for "allowing someone else to live their lives." One of my friends, who happens to be an atheist, says this often. NOTE: I am not saying all atheist do this!
All in all, if people would just focus on their own beliefs, and not pry their noses (and opinions) into someone else's, religion would not be such a touchy topic, and it would be much easier for people with different beliefs to gaily coexist amongst each other.
Religious extremists are, to me, the most evil of all religious people, despite doing what they do in the good name of their respective deity(ies).
Ironically, many Atheists are worse than the extremist. They bash those who take in a theistic belief, and ridicule them, calling them weak for "allowing someone else to live their lives." One of my friends, who happens to be an atheist, says this often. NOTE: I am not saying all atheist do this!
All in all, if people would just focus on their own beliefs, and not pry their noses (and opinions) into someone else's, religion would not be such a touchy topic, and it would be much easier for people with different beliefs to gaily coexist amongst each other.
Technically Chrome, in our modern society sex is not necessary to procreate, which renders your points moot. Mankind would not cease if everyone was a homosexual.
Staying out of this largely. People are free to believe as they will. I believe in my fellow man; I believe in doing "the right thing", based on my own moral compass, which I think intelligent people possess with or without a religion. Things like homosexuality do not cause any personal harm in my life or interfere with me, the same as any heterosexual relationship. It isn't my concern since there's no impact or harm coming to me. My personal philosophy is based around simply that; if it harms none, it isn't harmful or wrong.
Staying out of this largely. People are free to believe as they will. I believe in my fellow man; I believe in doing "the right thing", based on my own moral compass, which I think intelligent people possess with or without a religion. Things like homosexuality do not cause any personal harm in my life or interfere with me, the same as any heterosexual relationship. It isn't my concern since there's no impact or harm coming to me. My personal philosophy is based around simply that; if it harms none, it isn't harmful or wrong.
Watch the movie "Kingdom of Heaven". Religion, like all things, is a man-made institution. Even if God exists, religion is a creation of humanity, like government and business.
And like government and business, it can be used by men or women for great good or great evil, but religion, government, and business are not inherently good or evil. Without government, there would be no oppressive dictatorships but also no government sanctioned care, freedom, and security. Without business, there would be no greed but I think we all can agree that money has its very important uses. Without religion, there would be no religious extremists but also no charity contributions from organizations such as the Red Cross, Hope Outreach, the March of Dimes, and more.
Good or ill, these are the machinations of people, not of God.
And regarding the "validity" of religion, regardless of one's beliefs, I believe the quote "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him". People, by our nature, need answers for our own existence, if only to provide ourselves with people of mind, body, and soul. There is nothing wrong in hoping for more than brief mortality and the hope of happiness beyond our lifetime, whether one is Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, or Agnostic. But one must also be careful not to let religion, like all things, become misused by corrupt people, or to let faith blind you.
Ultimately, even if you aren't religious, the maxim of "love one another" and "do undo others as you would have them do unto you" is a universal truth that I believe one should aspire to follow.
And like government and business, it can be used by men or women for great good or great evil, but religion, government, and business are not inherently good or evil. Without government, there would be no oppressive dictatorships but also no government sanctioned care, freedom, and security. Without business, there would be no greed but I think we all can agree that money has its very important uses. Without religion, there would be no religious extremists but also no charity contributions from organizations such as the Red Cross, Hope Outreach, the March of Dimes, and more.
Good or ill, these are the machinations of people, not of God.
And regarding the "validity" of religion, regardless of one's beliefs, I believe the quote "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him". People, by our nature, need answers for our own existence, if only to provide ourselves with people of mind, body, and soul. There is nothing wrong in hoping for more than brief mortality and the hope of happiness beyond our lifetime, whether one is Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, or Agnostic. But one must also be careful not to let religion, like all things, become misused by corrupt people, or to let faith blind you.
Ultimately, even if you aren't religious, the maxim of "love one another" and "do undo others as you would have them do unto you" is a universal truth that I believe one should aspire to follow.
The people on MKO discuss, argue, and ridicule each other so much on the topic of religion. It kind of disgusts me. This thread hasnt gotten bad yet but it soon will. And the one thing I notice most on these threads is Atheists and Homosexuals get very fired up over religion. After that being said I am probably gonna piss some people off with what Im about to say.
I am a Christian. I do believe homosexuality is wrong. That being said I also think it should be legal for them to get married. Keep church and state seperate. Most homos know the Christian view of homosexual offenders. If they do not wanna abide by Christian rules so be it. It isnt like their arent so-called Christians who sin every day. But they will know how I feel on the subject and If they don't wanna change I am not gonna shove the bible up their asses. And no that wasnt meant to be a gay joke.
As for Athiests... Im not going to sugar coat it. I think It takes the most stubborn, pessimistic("no hope is better than false hope") kind of person to take this route. There is no such thing as false hope. If you wake up everyday and look around you, you must know that something higher than our understanding created you and everything around you. You do not have to be a Christian or any other religion to figure that out. You do not have to accept any other religion but to claim there is no higher being or beings out there seems moronic. Athiests could very well be right in claiming there is no afterlife but that doesnt mean there isnt a higher being(s). But if there wasn't that means life is kind of pointless. Life goes by too fast for it to just end abruptly.
That is just my two cents. I won't be replying anymore on this thread because I know I will just get bashed. Have a blessed day. lol
I am a Christian. I do believe homosexuality is wrong. That being said I also think it should be legal for them to get married. Keep church and state seperate. Most homos know the Christian view of homosexual offenders. If they do not wanna abide by Christian rules so be it. It isnt like their arent so-called Christians who sin every day. But they will know how I feel on the subject and If they don't wanna change I am not gonna shove the bible up their asses. And no that wasnt meant to be a gay joke.
As for Athiests... Im not going to sugar coat it. I think It takes the most stubborn, pessimistic("no hope is better than false hope") kind of person to take this route. There is no such thing as false hope. If you wake up everyday and look around you, you must know that something higher than our understanding created you and everything around you. You do not have to be a Christian or any other religion to figure that out. You do not have to accept any other religion but to claim there is no higher being or beings out there seems moronic. Athiests could very well be right in claiming there is no afterlife but that doesnt mean there isnt a higher being(s). But if there wasn't that means life is kind of pointless. Life goes by too fast for it to just end abruptly.
That is just my two cents. I won't be replying anymore on this thread because I know I will just get bashed. Have a blessed day. lol
Bezou Wrote:
And for the record, it's arrogant to think that you deserve to live forever.
And for the record, it's arrogant to think that you deserve to live forever.
And isn't it arrogant to decide that it is arrogant to think that you deserve to live forever? I mean can you even make such absolute axioms as a human?
Also, you assume that someone seeks immortality to be happy, and that someone would be inadvertedly be unhappy as deathless. Why?
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