Shang Transformations
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posted03/02/2019 06:57 PM (UTC)by
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umbrascitor
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Rumor suggests that Shang Tsung has a strong chance of being in. If this is true, then what do you suppose his Custom Variation options are going to be -- especially where it comes to his most signature skill, shapeshifting?

Here are my thoughts:

Without a doubt, his basic toolkit is sure to include single-to-multi fireballs and a soul steal. The real question is how they're going to handle shapeshifting, and make it bigger and better than in MK9.

MK9 Shang managed to overcome the processing limitations that prevented him from shapeshifting at all in Deadly Alliance, by having him only take the form of his opponent. That way, the game didn't have to load a whole other character model (complete with visual and sound effects, voice, motion data, etc.). As a sub-boss, he was also able to utilize the two extra Tag Kombat slots to pre-load data for additional transformations, which was damn clever. This approach fixed the lag issue that plagued his Trilogy appearance, and gave him some versatility as a boss, but left his playable version limited to whomever your opponent is playing.

But now with customizable movesets on the table... what if they gave you the freedom to build your own Shang Tsung loadout with a morphing option of your choosing? This means that the data for an extra character would come pre-loaded, and you can select a loadout that's appropriate to the matchup -- plus, morphing into your opponent using an amplified Soul Steal would give you a second transformation.

Equipping a character morph would surely occupy all three customization slots. Or, you could opt to use those slots to buff up your standard Shang with options to change up his fireballs (like the rising and falling fireballs) or even give him brand new tools -- while still retaining the ability to mirror-morph your opponent using Soul Steal, MK9 style.

Pre-selected morphs would probably come in a basic form with no customization buffs and a standard costume, while mirror-morphs would likely copy your opponent exactly. Now here's the real mindblow: If pre-selects only need to rely on a no-frills basic loadout to do the job, then Shang could potentially...

... morph into characters who are not otherwise in the playable roster.

If the backlash against NPC battles in MKX didn't totally sour the developers on ever doing it again, then Shang can take advantage of those basic assets and become practically anybody​​​​​. Imagine a future Shapeshifter DLC pack full of easy-builds for characters who are missing: that gives us more honorary character representation, with less time and labor toll on the developers if they don't have to make a batch of fully realized characters complete with balanced variations, multiple skins, intro recordings, and so on. And it turns Shang Tsung into the ultimate badass of the game, truly worthy of his place as a secret unlockable.

Of course, that possiblity doesn't have as good a chance of happening if the developers took all the NPC complaints to heart and avoided putting half-formed fightable bonus characters in the game, just because some very loud fans can be such entitled twats that they don't know a well intentioned gift when it's handed to them. Wouldn't that be a shame. (Hypothetically.)

So what do you all think? If it were up to you to design an updated Shang Tsung within the constraints of current technology, how would you do it? And if he happens to truly be in the game, what do you suppose his role will be in the story?

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chadspade
03/02/2019 07:19 PM (UTC)
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I really like your ideas for Shang. If he is in the game, I highly doubt that it would be serving Outworld considering that Kotal Kahn is the Emperor now. He probably will have his own agenda in this game so anything is possible. Then again, Kronika could threaten to erase him from ever existing if he doesn't do her bidding but I suppose that Geras has that covered.

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newt27
03/03/2019 06:24 PM (UTC)
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umbrascitor
Without a doubt, his basic toolkit is sure to include single-to-multi fireballs and a soul steal. The real question is how they're going to handle shapeshifting, and make it bigger and better than in MK9.

Agreed! I like a lot of your ideas, they could certainly work well. I had some additions/ changes that I would prefer.

Even though everything is customizable, it seems like each character has at least 3 completely different variations which fit into a theme. For Shang I would guess:
1. a variation heavily based on fireballs
2. a variation heavily based on stealing a pre-loaded character
3. a variation heavily based on stealing your opponents soul

The first variation is pretty self explanatory.

For the second variation, I would suggest that the mirror transform is the mirror soul steal and the amplified version gives you the character you selected for this variation. Being able to choose which character you will turn into is pretty damn powerful, so it would probably take up all 3 customization spots.

For the third variation, I was thinking your soul steal could be buffed to shit, perhaps add some different soul stealing tools. Soul steal floor trap? Some Quan Chi-esque portal stuff? Instead of copying a vanilla version of the character you would have all the specifics to their variation. It could also restore some health.

umbrascitor
Imagine a future Shapeshifter DLC pack full of easy-builds for characters who are missing: that gives us more honorary character representation, with less time and labor toll on the developers if they don't have to make a batch of fully realized characters complete with balanced variations, multiple skins, intro recordings, and so on.

Although I think that is a cool idea, I don't like it and don't want to see that. Granted, I understand and accept that it would be better than nothing for the super fanboys of specific characters. However, on a personal level, I don't like it. If one of my favourites like Bo are one of these Shang transformations I will be playing Shang Tsung with Bo pre loaded. I will probably just get frustrated, especially if he is not a fully realized character, he will probably suck. And I cant even play him the whole time! It's a cool idea, but in practice I think there time is better spent elsewhere and it will end up pissing more people off than satisfying them, as you mentioned near the end of your blurb.

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Locke
03/03/2019 06:28 PM (UTC)
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The only thing I want regarding Shang Tsung is a revamped, badass version of his soul steal fatality. I'm still kinda pissed off they didn't do it in MK2011.

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umbrascitor
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03/03/2019 08:28 PM (UTC)Edited 03/03/2019 08:32 PM (UTC)
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newt27

Even though everything is customizable, it seems like each character has at least 3 completely different variations which fit into a theme.

So far at least, that's not quite the case. The characters highlighted in the Kombat Kasts have had 3 distinctly themed variations because Steve purposely built them that way. It looks like you can mix and match whatever you want on top of the characters' basic toolkits, whether it's modifying or replacing certain moves or adding new ones.

In one early interview Boon mentioned the possibility of having a set of preset "regulation variations" apart from customization, just to ensure that the balancing doesn't get too far out of whack for competition play if certain combinations give an unfair advantage that they missed. But that was an idea he said he was just tossing around at the time, and we haven't seen anything since that indicates they went through with it. Making the change would probably involve an overhaul of the whole system too, since a move that takes all 3 slots (like Geras's rewind) would basically just be its own variation with no room for further modification... so what would you even need the slots for?

If they do happen to implement standard themed variations again, then your idea would make better sense than mine.

Your ideas for more Soul Stealing tricks sound pretty fun. You could even still do that under a system like the one I laid out, if you don't pick an extra Morph for your customization.

newt27
umbrascitor
Imagine a future Shapeshifter DLC pack full of easy-builds for characters who are missing: that gives us more honorary character representation, with less time and labor toll on the developers if they don't have to make a batch of fully realized characters complete with balanced variations, multiple skins, intro recordings, and so on.

Although I think that is a cool idea, I don't like it and don't want to see that. Granted, I understand and accept that it would be better than nothing for the super fanboys of specific characters. However, on a personal level, I don't like it. If one of my favourites like Bo are one of these Shang transformations I will be playing Shang Tsung with Bo pre loaded. I will probably just get frustrated, especially if he is not a fully realized character, he will probably suck. And I cant even play him the whole time! It's a cool idea, but in practice I think there time is better spent elsewhere and it will end up pissing more people off than satisfying them, as you mentioned near the end of your blurb.

Yeah, I'm sure that a lot of people would be pissed to have a favorite character be only represented as a Shang transformation, and thus only half playable at best. And for the degree of negative feedback I'd expect to see from it, it probably isn't worth actually doing.

I tried to focus more on the benefits, I guess. If pre-selecting your morph character is going to give you a stripped down version of the character anyway, with no variation or costume frills (and it would have to, to be remotely practical) then any outside characters they throw in the mix wouldn't suck any worse. And I could see people proudly bringing in their Li Mei or Drahmin as a tag-in partner online, waving their fan flag and signaling their love of the character to NRS, establishing a player identity for themselves as Kintaro Morph Guy or whatever... possibly convincing the team to take the next half-step and make one or more of the most popular Shang transformations into a full DLC character.

There's really nothing to lose from an idea like this, and much to potentially gain. It's just a matter of having enough of the audience see it that way. So the idea's fucked I guess, haha.

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Ravenbez
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everything crossed for Reiko

03/03/2019 09:13 PM (UTC)
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To me as long as he has a Soul Steal move that can become a brutality that is like his klassic fatality and maybe a ability to morph into opponent then I’m happy

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Tony Danza
03/03/2019 10:04 PM (UTC)
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I would kill to see a soul steal fatality where that victim turns into a pile of mush. Eyeballs, internal organs intact.

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Spirit_Wolf
03/03/2019 11:19 PM (UTC)
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Frank_Hobyak

I would kill to see a soul steal fatality where that victim turns into a pile of mush. Eyeballs, internal organs intact.

I rather like to see that fatality where it degrades to a "mummy" like state, basicly like in MKII. Didn't like the MK3 version that much.

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Tony Danza
03/03/2019 11:45 PM (UTC)
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Spirit_Wolf
Frank_Hobyak

I would kill to see a soul steal fatality where that victim turns into a pile of mush. Eyeballs, internal organs intact.

I rather like to see that fatality where it degrades to a "mummy" like state, basicly like in MKII. Didn't like the MK3 version that much.

I loved the mummy version too. Regardless of the outcome of body, it would be cool to see the actual soul trembling out of the body, and have it resemble the character, before shang consumes it!

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Ravenbez
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'Your soul is MINE!'

everything crossed for Reiko

03/04/2019 10:07 AM (UTC)
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Spirit_Wolf
Frank_Hobyak

I would kill to see a soul steal fatality where that victim turns into a pile of mush. Eyeballs, internal organs intact.

I rather like to see that fatality where it degrades to a "mummy" like state, basicly like in MKII. Didn't like the MK3 version that much.

This!!! I loved the idea that when the souls left the body it becomes wilted and rotting

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thisiscourage
03/04/2019 02:17 PM (UTC)
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Ravenbez

To me as long as he has a Soul Steal move that can become a brutality that is like his klassic fatality and maybe a ability to morph into opponent then I’m happy

This would be an epically cool brutality, and it needs to be in the game.

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newt27
03/04/2019 06:17 PM (UTC)
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umbrascitor
newt27

Even though everything is customizable, it seems like each character has at least 3 completely different variations which fit into a theme.

So far at least, that's not quite the case.

Key words: at least. For example, Kabal had some hook sword type of moves, gas type moves, and speed type moves (?). You can mix and match, I never said you couldn't. It's just that each character seems to have at least 3 different "types" of moves.

umbrascitor
In one early interview Boon mentioned the possibility of having a set of preset "regulation variations" apart from customization, just to ensure that the balancing doesn't get too far out of whack for competition play if certain combinations give an unfair advantage that they missed. But that was an idea he said he was just tossing around at the time, and we haven't seen anything since that indicates they went through with it.

I think I saw the same interview, but I remember it as Boon saying this will definitely be the case for competitive play. If I remember right then he said competitive play will have 3 variations like MKX but you can customize your moveset for casual and single player modes. I could be wrong here though.

umbrascitor
Making the change would probably involve an overhaul of the whole system too, since a move that takes all 3 slots (like Geras's rewind) would basically just be its own variation with no room for further modification... so what would you even need the slots for?

It's a really minor change, really. I'm surprised you don't see how. Some characters have way too many moves to fit into only 3 variations, some moves won't be used in the preset variations. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You need the slots for customization so that there is some form of balance and you can't just put all the moves on in the customized games. You mention moves that take up 3 slots being its own variation but that would be the case for the custom variation too so I don't get your point/ the problem.

umbrascitor
If they do happen to implement standard themed variations again, then your idea would make better sense than mine.

I don't think our ideas are mutually exclusive. I just phrased my idea into 3 different variation types because that's how I perceived the other characters revealed so far. Also at this point I assume you are talking about my idea of moveset (not talking about the NPC transformations yet). I think both of our ideas could and likely will be implemented (at least partially) if Shang does make it in.

umbrascitor
Yeah, I'm sure that a lot of people would be pissed to have a favorite character be only represented as a Shang transformation, and thus only half playable at best. And for the degree of negative feedback I'd expect to see from it, it probably isn't worth actually doing.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

umbrascitor
There's really nothing to lose from an idea like this, and much to potentially gain. It's just a matter of having enough of the audience see it that way. So the idea's fucked I guess, haha.

Again, I agree. You pretty much convinced me it's a good idea though. The only caveat is that the potential "loss" is a bunch of people complaining which in reality isn't much of a loss.

I guess the other part is I really have no idea how easy or hard it would be to implement this idea from a game dev perspective. Sounds like it would be easy to me, but I know fuck all about developing a game.

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03/04/2019 10:58 PM (UTC)Edited 03/04/2019 11:00 PM (UTC)
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umbrascitor

Pre-selected morphs would probably come in a basic form with no customization buffs and a standard costume, while mirror-morphs would likely copy your opponent exactly. Now here's the real mindblow: If pre-selects only need to rely on a no-frills basic loadout to do the job, then Shang could potentially...

... morph into characters who are not otherwise in the playable roster.

If the backlash against NPC battles in MKX didn't totally sour the developers on ever doing it again, then Shang can take advantage of those basic assets and become practically anybody​​​​​. Imagine a future Shapeshifter DLC pack full of easy-builds for characters who are missing: that gives us more honorary character representation, with less time and labor toll on the developers if they don't have to make a batch of fully realized characters complete with balanced variations, multiple skins, intro recordings, and so on. And it turns Shang Tsung into the ultimate badass of the game, truly worthy of his place as a secret unlockable.

Of course, that possiblity doesn't have as good a chance of happening if the developers took all the NPC complaints to heart and avoided putting half-formed fightable bonus characters in the game, just because some very loud fans can be such entitled twats that they don't know a well intentioned gift when it's handed to them. Wouldn't that be a shame. (Hypothetically.)

Yeah, I wouldn't really call it a well-intended gift, rather than dangling a bone in front of a dog you know can't grab it.

For those who might be unsure:

Bone = NPCs in MKX

Dog = Players

The biggest offense to it was many of those characters were highly requested, like Rain, Smoke, and Baraka. Luckily, Tanya was already planned for DLC, but even she needed some changes beforehand. Hell, Rain had both a new costume and new moves, yet was never added as a playable character. Talk about dangling a bone!

To bring this full circle, if incorporating Shang Tsung's transform abilities means adding semi-playable characters, he's better off not being in the game. It just doesn't make any sense to put forth that much effort into characters players can't even use.

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umbrascitor
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03/05/2019 02:10 AM (UTC)
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@newt27

I think you might have confused some of the parts where I agreed with what you were saying with a challenge, haha. Maybe that's my fault. I have spent the majority of my time here lately doggedly challenging people I have little-to-no agreement with, after all.

Our only notable departure here is that I'm not so sure they'll go with "regulation" variations. Competitive players will probably want the flexibility of choosing tricks across variations, and in any case, their marketing has solely revolved around having open options. Suddenly telling everyone in the competitive scene that they'll be restricted to certain variations after hyping up freeform customization all this time... might be a bit of a faux pas.

To my best recollection, Boon said he thought a standard system would probably be necessary, but it was still something they were hashing out and it may or may not change. I'm banking on them talking him out of it.

Assuming it could still go either way, whether they do regulation variations or not would have some effect on how they'd implement this kind of morph scheme. With 3 preset variations based on fireballs, souls, and morphs: if you select the Morph variation, they'd need to add an extra level of menu interface so you can character-select your morph. That's totally doable, although having the player essentially make two character selections before every Shang match could be slightly cumbersome, especially if they're being finicky about their morph pick. With freeform customization, you don't need the extra menu; the player could have a few different morph options on quick-draw when they select Shang. He'd just end up with a much longer list of move options in the character builder: a handful of fire and soul mods and like 40 morphs. At least all the clutter is behind the scenes though, and not on the character select screen.

Sidebar: I'd confused myself a little bit when I was talking about the slots before. I get what you were saying about that now.

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umbrascitor
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03/05/2019 03:05 AM (UTC)Edited 03/05/2019 03:16 AM (UTC)
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Riyakou

Yeah, I wouldn't really call it a well-intended gift, rather than dangling a bone in front of a dog you know can't grab it.

For those who might be unsure:

Bone = NPCs in MKX

Dog = Players

The biggest offense to it was many of those characters were highly requested, like Rain, Smoke, and Baraka. Luckily, Tanya was already planned for DLC, but even she needed some changes beforehand. Hell, Rain had both a new costume and new moves, yet was never added as a playable character. Talk about dangling a bone!

To bring this full circle, if incorporating Shang Tsung's transform abilities means adding semi-playable characters, he's better off not being in the game. It just doesn't make any sense to put forth that much effort into characters players can't even use.

Scenario 1: A team of big-budget game developers, with a clear intention of making as much money for themselves and their benefactors as possible, deliberately decided to snub their most dedicated fans by maliciously teasing them with non-playable fights against some of their favorite characters, just for the trollz.

Scenario 2: They had built up basic assets for a handful of characters who for one reason or another didn't make the roster. These assets were implemented in Story Mode as NPC battles, adding some unexpected variety to the fights and giving some missing characters some more substantial impact on the story than just a background cameo. Foolishly, like fools, they imagined that fans would appreciate the extra effort they put into giving some characters more time in the spotlight, by including content that the game didn't need to have once the playable roster was already finalized.

Believe what you want to believe.

I will say that they dropped the ball with Rain. I remember hearing that the story guys really wanted him in, but were overruled somewhere along the way in the development -- and judging by the way they used him in the story, that seems pretty likely. Rain was a sorely missed opportunity; I would have very much liked to see him make it as a full character. They sure gave him a hell of a showing for not being on the roster, though.

But don't worry, they did hear all the feedback and hinted that they probably won't be trying that again. It's gonna be all or nothing from here on. Due to popular demand, having "something" is pretty much off the table. And with somewhere around 80 characters in the series' history waiting for their moments, that's gonna be a whole lot of nothing until the next Armageddon comes around.

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newt27
03/05/2019 05:56 PM (UTC)
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umbrascitor
I think you might have confused some of the parts where I agreed with what you were saying with a challenge, haha. Maybe that's my fault. I have spent the majority of my time here lately doggedly challenging people I have little-to-no agreement with, after all.

Ditto!

umbrascitor
Our only notable departure here is that I'm not so sure they'll go with "regulation" variations.

Yeah I agree. To be clear, I don't want regulation variations. I think we watched the same interview and heard it in two different ways. I thought Boon said that competitive play will have the regulation variations unless something drastic changes, but you phrased it as

umbrascitor
Boon said he thought a standard system would probably be necessary, but it was still something they were hashing out and it may or may not change.

It almost means the same thing, the only difference is inferred likeliness. I really don't want that standard system unless the customization system is super broken. Even if the customization system is super broken, I would prefer patches over preset variations. As you mentioned,

umbrascitor
telling everyone in the competitive scene that they'll be restricted to certain variations after hyping up freeform customization all this time... might be a bit of a faux pas

Also, this is a good point.

umbrascitor
if you select the Morph variation, they'd need to add an extra level of menu interface so you can character-select your morph. That's totally doable, although having the player essentially make two character selections before every Shang match could be slightly cumbersome

It is certainly doable, you just pick Shang, pick his morph variation, then choose another character from the select screen that is already there, probably having a popup in the unused space saying "pick morph target" or whatever. Still cumbersome, but I don't think it would be overly cumbersome.

Onto what legion ivory said, I'm gonna have to agree with umbrascitor.

Riyakou
To bring this full circle, if incorporating Shang Tsung's transform abilities means adding semi-playable characters, he's better off not being in the game. It just doesn't make any sense to put forth that much effort into characters players can't even use.

I think that is the point you are missing, and the reason I agree with umbrascitor. The only way it makes sense to have these characters in is if they are mostly completed already. As umbra said, it's a matter of using the assets they already have on hand.

If adding NPC's to Shang's morphs required creating a moveset, character render, new animations, etc, etc then I don't like the idea. If they already have the assets there ready to use, why not use them? And why not use them in this way, so that fans get to see and play their less popular favourites?

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Ravenbez
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everything crossed for Reiko

03/07/2019 12:04 PM (UTC)
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I’d be happy if Shang could simply morph into the opponent with the same variations to simply ‘mirror’ the opponent.

i just really want to see a decent soul Steal fatality. It’s been so long. The nearest tease was in mk vs dc where it was kind of a throw but the opponent started to grey and that was cool

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