Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
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Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/02/2011 09:13 PM EDT
After playing the demo for the first time yesterday, I've come to a few conclusions.

First of all, zoning in this game seems to be of higher importance than in any other competing 2D fighter. It's like every character so far is able to cover space like Ibuki in SSF4 and is able to do so with more damage potential (resets aside).

That said, I think I now get why every character has a teleport and a projectile. Think of it like this: imagine if a Zangief player had to face a opponent with a move like the ice clone. I would think once player 2 gets the lead, the game is basically over. There really isn't anything a slow grappler can do against that strategy. They can't poke, they can't cross up, and they can't bait. They just gotta hope the opponent gets greedy and switches to offense.

That's why I think NRS gave every character a long distance game. Characters with really good spatial control can't withdraw from the match once they get the life lead. It's like projectiles/teleports have been put on the same level as dashing.

People have been saying this goes against character diversity, and I agree, but at the same time, I think this approach will yield a very balanced game with an overall unique mindset attached.

So thoughts? I played the demo for one hour, so I'm not saying I got a full grasp on all this. I didn't even get to use Mileena. I'm not saying this with 100% confidence.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/03/2011 12:55 AM EDT
I agree with this, but I don't have much else to add beyond that since I've only played the demo once.
Good stuff!
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/03/2011 01:06 AM EDT
Agreed, but at the same time, some characters are better than others. For example, Cage's fireballs are good for range, but he doesn't really have anything else to cover distance safely. The shadow kick covers distance quickly, but can be punished against a standing block and can be ducked, both leading to full combos and huge damage.

Scorpion on the other hand can spear from distance (which is essentially the same thing as covering distance), which is safe from a full combo punishment except for Mileena's EX Ball Roll (but the timing would be very difficult and if blocked will open up for full combo punishment). You can punish Scorpion's spear, but just not with anything that leads to a massive combo, unless you are up close. Also, similar to the spear, the hell fire can hit at any distance, and is unblockable. However, this move is much more dangerous than the spear as the startup/active/recovery frames are greater, but is pretty safe at distance--again, you can punish it with a single move, but not with anything that leads to a combo (Mileena EX Ball Roll being the exception). All of this analysis changes when dealing with the enemy from half screen, or even closer, but this post is about zoning, projectiles, covering distance, etc.

Mileena and Sub-Zero are really in the same boat as Cage. They have projectiles and moves that cover distance, but they are all for the most part incredibly unsafe and open you up for major punishment. Scorpion doesn't have the same problem as the others do with that. His teleport is unsafe against a standing block and can be countered with a quick low strike, but you shouldn't be doing teleports outside of combos anyways, unless against a jump happy opponent.

Sub-Zero's freezes should last a bit longer, as they require precise dashing if you are outside of sweep range, in order to land the jumping pop-up attack, which is his best starter for a follow up to a freeze attack. And if you are more than two full dashes away, you cannot land the JP Pop-Up in time, which means you have to do a short combo, which nets much less damage than the full JP pop-up version.

I'm just kind of ranting now...sorry if I took this off topic, just wanted to contribute something.

Good post by the way.



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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/03/2011 01:12 PM EDT
Nice post. But no way NRS are smart enough to plan this out. It is a coincidence, I tell ya, a coincidence!
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/03/2011 09:29 PM EDT
I would hardly call mileena's drop kick a teleport but I suppose it works in a sense. Cage's projectiles do save him from a lot of sub-zero bait style attacks.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/04/2011 02:13 PM EDT
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Scorpion on the other hand can spear from distance (which is essentially the same thing as covering distance), which is safe from a full combo punishment except for Mileena's EX Ball Roll (but the timing would be very difficult and if blocked will open up for full combo punishment). You can punish Scorpion's spear, but just not with anything that leads to a massive combo, unless you are up close. Also, similar to the spear, the hell fire can hit at any distance, and is unblockable. However, this move is much more dangerous than the spear as the startup/active/recovery frames are greater, but is pretty safe at distance--again, you can punish it with a single move, but not with anything that leads to a combo (Mileena EX Ball Roll being the exception). All of this analysis changes when dealing with the enemy from half screen, or even closer, but this post is about zoning, projectiles, covering distance, etc.


Scorpion is a character that should stay far away and zone in on the opponent. I think the spear is fine as it is. You have to be about a screen away to get it off safely, and even then if you miss you're going to eat a charging move like Shadow Kick or Slide.

I think the Spear is fine the way it is.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/05/2011 12:05 PM EDT
SubMan799 Wrote:
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Scorpion on the other hand can spear from distance (which is essentially the same thing as covering distance), which is safe from a full combo punishment except for Mileena's EX Ball Roll (but the timing would be very difficult and if blocked will open up for full combo punishment). You can punish Scorpion's spear, but just not with anything that leads to a massive combo, unless you are up close. Also, similar to the spear, the hell fire can hit at any distance, and is unblockable. However, this move is much more dangerous than the spear as the startup/active/recovery frames are greater, but is pretty safe at distance--again, you can punish it with a single move, but not with anything that leads to a combo (Mileena EX Ball Roll being the exception). All of this analysis changes when dealing with the enemy from half screen, or even closer, but this post is about zoning, projectiles, covering distance, etc.


Scorpion is a character that should stay far away and zone in on the opponent. I think the spear is fine as it is. You have to be about a screen away to get it off safely, and even then if you miss you're going to eat a charging move like Shadow Kick or Slide.

I think the Spear is fine the way it is.


^^Ditto. LOL. Scorpion is a high damage dealer with crazy combos but all of his moves are super easy to punish and that is his Achilles' Heel and always has been.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/05/2011 03:01 PM EDT
Bloodfang Wrote:
SubMan799 Wrote:
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Scorpion on the other hand can spear from distance (which is essentially the same thing as covering distance), which is safe from a full combo punishment except for Mileena's EX Ball Roll (but the timing would be very difficult and if blocked will open up for full combo punishment). You can punish Scorpion's spear, but just not with anything that leads to a massive combo, unless you are up close. Also, similar to the spear, the hell fire can hit at any distance, and is unblockable. However, this move is much more dangerous than the spear as the startup/active/recovery frames are greater, but is pretty safe at distance--again, you can punish it with a single move, but not with anything that leads to a combo (Mileena EX Ball Roll being the exception). All of this analysis changes when dealing with the enemy from half screen, or even closer, but this post is about zoning, projectiles, covering distance, etc.


Scorpion is a character that should stay far away and zone in on the opponent. I think the spear is fine as it is. You have to be about a screen away to get it off safely, and even then if you miss you're going to eat a charging move like Shadow Kick or Slide.

I think the Spear is fine the way it is.


^^Ditto. LOL. Scorpion is a high damage dealer with crazy combos but all of his moves are super easy to punish and that is his Achilles' Heel and always has been.


Sure, I mean you can keep the spear as is, but it doesn't change the fact that if Scorpion connects a spear it lead to 50% damage, and the punishment for missing it is taking a single charge move, while if Mileena connects a ball roll it only nets about 35-40% damage, but if she misses she gets punished with a juggle, which can easily net 2-3 times the damage of a single charge move. Same thing with Cage, except the only comparable move to the spear or ball roll that covers distance is the Shadow Kick, which leads to absolutely nothing, but if blocked or ducked can be punished with a full combo, again netting 2-3 times the damage of a single charge move.

So to recap:

Scorpion has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 50% damage easily
If unsuccessful Scorpion will take a charge move that does somewhere between 5-12% damage

Mileena has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 35-40% damage
If unsuccessful Mileena will take a juggle combo that can do anywhere from 25-35% (as she will be airborne)

Cage has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 8% damage
If unsuccessful Cage will take a full combo that can do anywhere from 30-40% damage (as he will be standing in recovery)

You say Scorpion is easily punished, but it seems that the other characters are even easier to punish than Scorpion and he can do more damage. Yes the teleport puts him in a similar postion to Mileena's ball roll, but Scorpion doesn't need to teleport outside of combos because he has two other special moves that can hit from a full screen away, and one of those is unblockable. Sorry guys, Scorpion is insanely overpowered and if he isn't greatly nerfed by release, all of the tournament brackets will look like this:

Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion

Scorpion vs Scorpion

Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion



Winner: Scorpion

Unless of course NRS has some other incredible overpowered characters that we haven't had the chance to play with. I'm glad that all of the characters have some form of projectile or teleport, but it seems that NRSs attempt to level the playing field was a failure for the time being. Let's see the final build, and then we can really get a good idea of tiers.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/05/2011 05:13 PM EDT
The only way you're getting hit by a spear from a screen away is if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. Scorpion can deal a ton of damage after a Spear but its tough to get that spear in from a screen away.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/05/2011 06:21 PM EDT
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Bloodfang Wrote:
SubMan799 Wrote:
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Scorpion on the other hand can spear from distance (which is essentially the same thing as covering distance), which is safe from a full combo punishment except for Mileena's EX Ball Roll (but the timing would be very difficult and if blocked will open up for full combo punishment). You can punish Scorpion's spear, but just not with anything that leads to a massive combo, unless you are up close. Also, similar to the spear, the hell fire can hit at any distance, and is unblockable. However, this move is much more dangerous than the spear as the startup/active/recovery frames are greater, but is pretty safe at distance--again, you can punish it with a single move, but not with anything that leads to a combo (Mileena EX Ball Roll being the exception). All of this analysis changes when dealing with the enemy from half screen, or even closer, but this post is about zoning, projectiles, covering distance, etc.


Scorpion is a character that should stay far away and zone in on the opponent. I think the spear is fine as it is. You have to be about a screen away to get it off safely, and even then if you miss you're going to eat a charging move like Shadow Kick or Slide.

I think the Spear is fine the way it is.


^^Ditto. LOL. Scorpion is a high damage dealer with crazy combos but all of his moves are super easy to punish and that is his Achilles' Heel and always has been.


Sure, I mean you can keep the spear as is, but it doesn't change the fact that if Scorpion connects a spear it lead to 50% damage, and the punishment for missing it is taking a single charge move, while if Mileena connects a ball roll it only nets about 35-40% damage, but if she misses she gets punished with a juggle, which can easily net 2-3 times the damage of a single charge move. Same thing with Cage, except the only comparable move to the spear or ball roll that covers distance is the Shadow Kick, which leads to absolutely nothing, but if blocked or ducked can be punished with a full combo, again netting 2-3 times the damage of a single charge move.

So to recap:

Scorpion has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 50% damage easily
If unsuccessful Scorpion will take a charge move that does somewhere between 5-12% damage

Mileena has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 35-40% damage
If unsuccessful Mileena will take a juggle combo that can do anywhere from 25-35% (as she will be airborne)

Cage has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 8% damage
If unsuccessful Cage will take a full combo that can do anywhere from 30-40% damage (as he will be standing in recovery)

You say Scorpion is easily punished, but it seems that the other characters are even easier to punish than Scorpion and he can do more damage. Yes the teleport puts him in a similar postion to Mileena's ball roll, but Scorpion doesn't need to teleport outside of combos because he has two other special moves that can hit from a full screen away, and one of those is unblockable. Sorry guys, Scorpion is insanely overpowered and if he isn't greatly nerfed by release, all of the tournament brackets will look like this:

Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion

Scorpion vs Scorpion

Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion



Winner: Scorpion

Unless of course NRS has some other incredible overpowered characters that we haven't had the chance to play with. I'm glad that all of the characters have some form of projectile or teleport, but it seems that NRSs attempt to level the playing field was a failure for the time being. Let's see the final build, and then we can really get a good idea of tiers.


They probably do, I wouldn't assume Scorpion was the best character from a four man demo based of a build that was pre- QA.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/08/2011 06:22 AM EDT
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Bloodfang Wrote:
SubMan799 Wrote:
TheDarkPassenger Wrote:
Scorpion on the other hand can spear from distance (which is essentially the same thing as covering distance), which is safe from a full combo punishment except for Mileena's EX Ball Roll (but the timing would be very difficult and if blocked will open up for full combo punishment). You can punish Scorpion's spear, but just not with anything that leads to a massive combo, unless you are up close. Also, similar to the spear, the hell fire can hit at any distance, and is unblockable. However, this move is much more dangerous than the spear as the startup/active/recovery frames are greater, but is pretty safe at distance--again, you can punish it with a single move, but not with anything that leads to a combo (Mileena EX Ball Roll being the exception). All of this analysis changes when dealing with the enemy from half screen, or even closer, but this post is about zoning, projectiles, covering distance, etc.


Scorpion is a character that should stay far away and zone in on the opponent. I think the spear is fine as it is. You have to be about a screen away to get it off safely, and even then if you miss you're going to eat a charging move like Shadow Kick or Slide.

I think the Spear is fine the way it is.


^^Ditto. LOL. Scorpion is a high damage dealer with crazy combos but all of his moves are super easy to punish and that is his Achilles' Heel and always has been.


Sure, I mean you can keep the spear as is, but it doesn't change the fact that if Scorpion connects a spear it lead to 50% damage, and the punishment for missing it is taking a single charge move, while if Mileena connects a ball roll it only nets about 35-40% damage, but if she misses she gets punished with a juggle, which can easily net 2-3 times the damage of a single charge move. Same thing with Cage, except the only comparable move to the spear or ball roll that covers distance is the Shadow Kick, which leads to absolutely nothing, but if blocked or ducked can be punished with a full combo, again netting 2-3 times the damage of a single charge move.

So to recap:

Scorpion has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 50% damage easily
If unsuccessful Scorpion will take a charge move that does somewhere between 5-12% damage

Mileena has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 35-40% damage
If unsuccessful Mileena will take a juggle combo that can do anywhere from 25-35% (as she will be airborne)

Cage has a move that covers distance
If successful nets 8% damage
If unsuccessful Cage will take a full combo that can do anywhere from 30-40% damage (as he will be standing in recovery)

You say Scorpion is easily punished, but it seems that the other characters are even easier to punish than Scorpion and he can do more damage. Yes the teleport puts him in a similar postion to Mileena's ball roll, but Scorpion doesn't need to teleport outside of combos because he has two other special moves that can hit from a full screen away, and one of those is unblockable. Sorry guys, Scorpion is insanely overpowered and if he isn't greatly nerfed by release, all of the tournament brackets will look like this:

Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion

Scorpion vs Scorpion

Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion
Scorpion vs Scorpion



Winner: Scorpion

Unless of course NRS has some other incredible overpowered characters that we haven't had the chance to play with. I'm glad that all of the characters have some form of projectile or teleport, but it seems that NRSs attempt to level the playing field was a failure for the time being. Let's see the final build, and then we can really get a good idea of tiers.


You DO raise some fine points BUT besides the counter-points made by SubMan I would also add that Scorpion has ALWAYS had this move and has almost ALWAYS been able to do insane combo damage off of it and yet in UMK3 I believe he was judged to be Middle Tier? Anyone who knows/studies tiers better than me please correct/elaborate but I believe this is because he is easily predicted which makes him easily blocked and easily punished but if your opponent doesn't have exceptional skills and play at a high level, yes Scorpion has almost always been a very dominant character just never considered the MOST dominant. I would have placed him MUCH higher in UMK3 or MK4 but I am not that good with the characters that ARE top tier/god tier in those games so clearly somebody knows something I don't and can do alot of something I can't. lol.

And I totally disagree with you about the hellfire unless it is the ES version. It may be unblockable but you can extremely easily see it coming, jump to avoid it, move ever so slightly to avoid it, it doesn't even score a free hit against an opponent lying on the ground unless it is the ES version so you can't use it effectively to gain a free hit after a combo like you could in previous games. It is an excellent move against players who stand in one spot for too long whether it be through inexperience, trying to turtle or some other pure defensive strategy that leads to a lack of movement, or just momentarily forgets that Scorpion does have a move that isn't the spear, teleport, or airthrow since they rarely need to worry about the almost completely useless leg takedown (cool move but it's a waste of a move slot imo so much more you could do with his powers/previous specials than that crappy thing).

In my opinion, as someone who mains Scorpion, the main reason he has the Hellfire move in its current incarnation with all its limitations (when not ES) is for special move variety and as a really good counter solution to the optimal play style of his greatest rival, Sub-Zero. Sub-Zero is intended to be played on the defensive and the Hellfire is the solution to the Ice Clone + Crouch Block Turtle Defense that was always the bane of Scorpion's existence in UMK3/MK4. Now if Sub-Zero stops moving you can burn him for a little bit of damage but it keeps him on his toes and removes the "safety bubble" that the Crouching Ice Turtle strategy usually creates for Sub-Zero and this can lead to frustration which leads to mistakes and this leads to the Spear connecting which can ACTUALLY be pretty hard to do against somebody who is at least experienced at playing MK regardless of skill.
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/08/2011 04:52 PM EDT
jax has a teleport?
barraka too? What about sonya? Do they have slides?

Exactly
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/08/2011 05:24 PM EDT
Scorpion's Spear was punishable in UMK3 because of the run button. You miss and you lose half your health. Here's the UMK3 tier list:

High

Kabal
Human Smoke
Kung Lao
Kano
Reptile
Ermac
Nightwolf
Robo Smoke
Sindel
Jax

Middle

Sonya
Kitana
Stryker
Scorpion
Unmasked Sub Zero
Jade
Liu Kang

Low
Sektor
Classic Sub Zero
Cyrax
Shang Tsung
Mileena
Sheeva
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RE: Projectiles and teleports, and Why Every Character Has One
04/08/2011 07:23 PM EDT
Thanks for all the responses, guys. I've been so busy lately, and frankly, sometimes forget there even is a Strategy Zone. It'll take a while to get use to this place.

ironman357thegod Wrote:
jax has a teleport?
barraka too? What about sonya? Do they have slides?

Exactly

But they have projectiles. Hence the long-distance game. Did you read the original post?
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