Why mods moved this to strategy zone? This was about the MK9 PATCH! So I think it belongs to that section and this zone is pretty much dead compared to the activity in the MK9 board... please move again!

Because this site is horrible about thread placement and gameplay related discussion.

Testyourmight.com is what your looking for.

Can you post specific combo examples? Sub's damage nerf, as I remember it, had nothing to do with freezes--it was just a damage nerf. Sub's most damaging combos are around 9 hits, so I would like to have something to test to better address your question.

Do you really think any of the guys over on the "Play for fun" Forum will be able to help you?

Like TheDarkPassanger said, be a little more specific and we will help you out here. Fate has brought you to us!

(Also out of curiosity, why did you only get the game now? )

Actually, I remember reading in the patch 1.02 notes that Sub's combos will have greater damage scaling after freeze.


Also, what I found silly was doing a simple 3 hit combo, like 2, 1, 4 for example, after his normal ground freeze does more damage than when it's done after his enhanced ground freeze. Kinda strange, to say the least...

Interesting--thanks for the info. I cannot think of a way to make more than a 4-5 hit combo without the Iceball and I'm thinking the 4-5 hitter will be less damage than 30% for sure (bread and butters are 30%+).

Same here. Seems like every combo of his has the ice blast as the third nput. Guess Sub Zero sucks unless you are Tom Brady. You definitley need either a lot of patience or a stupid opponent when using him.

I disagree with that.

I hear you--I, over the past couple of months, have found bizarre damage scaling situations. Some of them include 3-5% damage swings when doing the same exact combo, but switching the order of moves within the combo....weird to say the least.

I didn't get the game now, I had it since the release, but amazon sent me the game the same day that I left home for around 3 months without PS3, so I have used the game now but had the game since the release.

An example with X-Ray (x-ray sees a huge reduction because the damage scaling affect it a lot in this case):

try:

jump forward+2 (the one that hits but doesn't juggle), 2, 1, 4, X-Ray = 50 damage, 7 hits

then try:

jump forward+2, 2, 2, freeze, step back, jump forward+2, 2, 1, 4, X-Ray = 49 damage, 11 hits. A longer combo and consequently with a greater chance to fail, that starts exactly like the first one, do more hits, and results in less damage (in fact the last string is the previous combo, but before that you have another string of hits).

In this case is just 1% damage of difference but a 4 hits difference.

The chain "ump forward+2, 2, 1, 4" does 21 damage, wich means that the X-Ray after a 4 hit chain is scaled from 33 to 29 damage. X-Ray after freeze is scaled to 28, wich means that a freeze in a chain is like 4 or 5 non-damage hits in order to scale the damage for the next hits. I think it's too much, specially considering that other characters have other ways to paralize or stun their opponents and some of them are even more effective than the iceball or the clone.

The same combos replacing the X-Ray with a slide (right now is my main combo until I master the character and find more combos, I've been playing only 3 or 4 days, and the first day I used half of the roster on completing the story mode) give you: 5 hits and 29 damage, while the long one gives 9 hits and 33 damage.

This time the second one does more damage, but only +4, while hitting 4 more times.

There are other examples that I've find that start the same way and gives you a bigger reward if you don't use the freeze in the middle of the chain. Right now I'm considering the freeze useful only if you managed to froze the opponent before the combo and have a free combo with reduced damage, or in some cases when you can do a +2-4 damage if you use a longer string. But when you try to seccure combos and damge it looses effectiveness.

I'm playing effectively with Subby, and winning matches, it's just that I find a part of his moveset that defines the character to have a bad reward/effort ratio.

Ok, thanks for the details. So, here is my take--any combo that does greater damage is worth the effort, as long as the bigger damage combo is able to be executed consistently. With Sub-Zero, the two combos that you mention, while only being seperated by 4% damage (I slightly disagree that this is a small amount of health), are both easily performed (in my opinion). So, doing the shorter one is basically giving away free damage, even if the larger combo is doing less percent damage per hit.

In the end, you want to maximize damage per opening--not maximize damage per hit. The only time where I forfeit damage in a combo, is to cause a reset or to keep pressure on the opponent, but in your examples, the ending of the combos are the same, so there is no strategic reason why you would want to use the shorter version.

On a side note, you should consider using Sub's reset, which involves charging B+2 while the opponent is frozen--if they block the hit, and you time it correctly, you will get a re-freeze reset, which can be followed up by:

Dash, B+1,2~2,1,2 xxSlide

Now, the opponent can get out of the re-freeze by not holding block, but then you can just anticipate this and dash cancel the B+2 into 2,2 xx Iceball and freeze them again, thus resetting the combo.

I'm also not sure what to think of the massive damage scaling if you hit an airborne opponent with a diagonal jumping punch and combo off of it. The damage reduction is huge.

Well, in the first one of my examples the shorter combo was the most damaging. The other one had a 4% difference, but there are others where you have shorter non-freeze combos doing more damage than their freeze long counterparts.

Right now I'm playing on hard and keep doing the long freeze combo just for that +4% damage as I can use it efficently and the 4% is important, but just some times I fail at some point of the string or the the slide too early, wich probably wouldn't happen if trying the short combo. It's a matter of practice and right now it's very rare for me to fail the combo, but there is still the chance. I also use the freeze version of the combo for the x-ray but just because I keep doing the 2,2+something string all the time.


About the damage scaling on air, it's even worse if the opponent is froze on that situation, the combos using x-ray do less damage than the basic x-ray (I've learned to never use the x-ray when I punish Scorpion teleport with 2,2 freeze, it's a pure waste of x-meter).


BTW: I realized that an strategy that seems to be effective with Subby (at least against the IA on Hard, I have to try against human opponents) when the opponent keeps blocking the 2,2+freeze/4 string is to do the 2,2 string and on block do a slide. The IA only blocked it one or two times and I tried it hundreds of times. Everytime he was blocking the main string I switched to 2,2 slide and always broke his defense. I say it because I've never seen that strategy posted on any video tutorial or testyourmight and it's being very useful for me, the slide comes very fast and I don't think the opponents would try to block low or have time to. But maybe I should discuss that string on a different thread.

After some testing, it seems that hits in a combo are subject to an additional 1% damage scaling per hit when following a freeze. So, if your combo after the freeze has 4 hits, it will scale 4% damage on top of the existing damage scaling. But just a few thoughts on some of the things in your post:

You shouldn't be throwing out 2,2 xx Iceball because on block it can be punished by a full combo. The beauty of 2,2 is that you can hit confirm it, therefore never being punished for throwing a close up Iceball and it being blocked.

If anything I would be doing 2,2,4 xx Ice Clone. 2,2,4 is unsafe, but by cancelling into Ice Clone, it makes it safe, and creates the barrier between you and your opponent. (plus you get the chip damage on block from 2,2,4 which adds up to 5%).

Back to standard combos--you use 2,1,4 xx Slide (JPs in shouldn't be part of the combo--you will not always jump into a combo), which nets 26%. If you cancel 2,2 (on hit confirmation) into Iceball, it gives you the reset option--here's how it breaks down:

Scenario 1)
2,2 xx Iceball = 7%
B+2 (fully charged) = 11%
Total 18% guaranteed (on a no block)

Scenario 2)
If your opponent is blocking, you will get the reset and can add:

Dash, B+1,2~2,1,2 xx Slide, which gives you:

2,2 xx Iceball = 7%
Follow Up Combo= 35%
Total 42%

Now if your opponent attempts to not block (Scenario 1), which will cancel your reset, you can fake them out and dash cancel out of B+2 charge into 2,2 xx Iceball. This puts them right back to where they were--everytime you reset the combo this way, you pick up 7%.

So let's say you reset 7% twice and go for the full reset on try three, but again your opponent didn't block--you would get:

Reset 1) 7%
Reset 2) 7%
Reset 3) 18%
Total 32%

And all of these percentages are WITHOUT JPs. And since you were testing doing XRays at the end of combos, I'll include the combo reset with an XRay:

2,2 xx Iceball = 7% (JP changes this to 11%)
B+2 (reset) Dash, B+1,2~2,1,2 xx Xray = 46%
Total 53% (JP added makes this 57%)

Another note on starting combos with JPs: If you start a combo with JP, and it connects, the string to follow is guaranteed. So, when starting with JP, it would make more sense to do:

B+1,2

This can be hit confirmed and cancelled to Iceball, and if on block, can be cancelled to Ice Clone to make it safe. It does 2% more damage than 2,2 and since you are starting JP, it doesn't matter that it is WAY slower than 2,2. 2,2 is awesome because of how fast it is, but if you are always starting with JP, any string can be connected from JP and be guaranteed on hit, so speed doesn't matter. With that being the case, damage should be the priority (as long as the higher damage string has the same cancel abilities, and B+1,2 does).

What's exactly hit confirm? I usually try to see if they blocked the first "2", and if they block, do a slide instead of the freeze and punish the block, don't know if this is hit confirm. I'm not really throwing the 2,2, freeze (well, sometimes because I'm still learning to read my opponent), maybe I just expressed it wrongly before, my english isn't very good when I try to express complex things U.U Do you think the slide as a punish to blockers is a good idea? It's working very well for me when I see the opponent blocking the 2,2.



I forgot to say 4+Ice Clone, I knew that trick to make the string safe from Tom Brady's notes, but thanks for the tip anyway.



Sorry, my fault, I used the jump in on the first combo example just to make them more damaging on that scenario, but the jump in before the 2, 1, 4 string I said is with the opponent frozen so it's safe and adds damage. Indeed I tested it and does the same damage than Up2, Back1,2...2,1,2, slide (a combo that appears in most video tutorials). And when used with an X-Ray does 46% (with a previous 2, 2, freeze) while this last combo does 39% right now (also after a 2, 2, freeze), this is why I'm using JumpIn2, 2, 1, 4, slide after the freeze. Less hits, same damage, less scale for the X-Ray and don't need any concentration for dash and timing except for the small step back before the jump, that can lead you too far or too close but I managed to make that step automatically now. If you're not in the corner you can even skip the step back and jump, the only effect is that you will face the opposite side, but sometimes this is good if you're opponent is putting you against the wall.



Nice, I've seen some videos about this thing but never considered it because of how impredictable waiting the opponent to block could be, but the way you say it sounds great :) Will try it and see if I can get the timing correctly, thank you for all the good tips :D

Lokheit, we should have some games online. It's much better practicing against a human opponent than the AI.

My PSN ID is JaNeZoKu, feel free to add me (just leave a note in the message that it's you).

@ Lokheit: No problem, happy to help

On using the Slide to punish people block 2,2:

The Slide is also unsafe, so if someone gets a read on you doing this, you could be punished with a full combo. This is just my opinion, but I think the better option would be to throw--it's not as fast as the slide, but it will hit both a standing block and crouching block.

I'm not saying to never use Slide, however, I would be cautious of over using it as it can lead to big damage for your opponent if blocked.



Nephrite is right, playing against a human player will be more helpful than the AI. This will be a good opportunity to try out some of your strategies.

Good luck with your Sub!

You guys have done me proud here.



Seriously OP, what do you think would have happened if your post stayed in MK2011? You would have gotten a lot of advice about which costume to select and in which colour or something.

Guys, big thanks on my behalf for being so helpfull (even though this was not my query). I'm not a big Sub user and this stuff will help me a lot too. Hopefully I can be of use to one of you in the near future.

Well, really it started about the patch and transformed into a very helpfull strategy thread so it's good that it stayed on the strategy board :)