Tier list discussion - UPDATED February 16th with the latest Tom Brady tier list (see page 2)
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RE: Latest MK9 Tier.
11/05/2011 07:59 PM EDT
Nephrite Wrote:
I don't play with Cyber Sub-Zero, but I suppose Mileena is a bad match up for him since you can't jump against her so she takes away his dive kicks. She can hit him with a sai and then roll, or she can hit him with the teleport kick and then cancel into sai and roll.

I see that Kitana, Kabal and Liu Kang are also listed as bad match ups for him and all of them have instant air projectiles.


I'm surprised that Reptile isn't listed as a bad match up for Kitana. I wonder what changed there. On the other side, I'm also surprised Kitana isn't listed as a bad match up for Sub-Zero. I know Brady has a plan to beat Kitana with d+4, clone and ducking the fans and wait for the clock to run out, but I doubt that'll work. But hey, that's just me...


So basically, by this list Kabal is #1 and Mileena is #2. So can we expect to see some Mileenas in tournaments soon? It'd be nice to see that biatch in top 8, it's been a while since Evo.

Also, who's better: a character that has two bad match ups but both are 4-6, or a character that has one bad match up but it's 3-7?

I don't know if it's worth it to go into any deep discussions though, I'm pretty sure there'll be at least one more patch? Isn't there a 1.05 hotfix also pending?



LOL @ me asking billion questions. grin


Cyber Sub can still jump against Mileena using his dive kick immediately, I think that they put her as a bad matchup because of the instant air sai. Kabal and Kitana are the worst matchups for Cyber since they completely nullify his dive kicks.

I think that the character that has one bad matchup is better.

As for another patch, I think it's coming along with the hotfix. Kabal and Cyrax nerf for the win! tongue
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RE: Latest MK9 Tier.
11/06/2011 06:55 AM EST
^ Smokes getting a small nerf too, I hear.
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RE: Latest MK9 Tier.
11/06/2011 07:04 AM EST
I wonder if they'll make Nightwolf's f+3 hit low. And his reflect lasts forever, it'd be much better if it was very short or if you could dash cancel it. The 2nd option sounds better to me.

Whatever they do to Cyrax, I'm sure people will find some new cheap $hit with him lol.

I heard that Jax's corner loop is getting nerfed, like it'll have much bigger damage scaling.

As for Jade, I think they'll change her u+3 to hit crouching opponents again and they'll buff her projectiles (faster start-up or less recovery or maybe both).

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RE: Latest MK9 Tier.
11/07/2011 09:24 PM EST
A quick note on why Smoke is ranked so high.

Remember guys, ranking is determined by match ups. All things considered, I consider Smoke to be only slightly above average in general, and the majority of his match-ups are pretty even, IMO. The thing is that in the few match-ups he does win, he dominates. Smoke eats projectile zoners for breakfast. I personally believe Smoke beats Sub-Zero 7-3.

Another thing in his favor which Nephrite brought up is his resets. Even in his bad match-ups, Smoke has a vortex at his disposal (which ironically, is yet ANOTHER ode to Akuma). It doesn't matter if you're Kung Lao, Ermac, or Hector Sanchez: when Smoke gets a hard knockdown on you, you have to guess you're way out, and if you're playing a smart Smoke player, he's going to finish his combos with air throw, in which case HE WILL ALWAYS get a hard knock down on you.

That's why I've always said Ermac is Smoke's worse match-up. A good Ermac player can safely keep Smoke out all day, and Smoke anti-zoning tools don't work on telekinesis. That's why my counter-pick is Nightwolf. He may not be high-tier, but he is Fuck-Ermac tier.

Speaking of which, I knew Nightwolf had some problems, but I didn't think he was THAT bad. Fix his Axe Swing and he'd be perfectly viable, or so I thought.
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RE: Latest MK9 Tier.
11/08/2011 12:46 AM EST
If Nightwolf's F+3 is changed to hit low, I will be ecstatic! (Even though I don't currently own a copy! tongue)

smile
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RE: Latest MK9 Tier.
11/08/2011 07:27 AM EST
^ LOL!

TemperaryUserName Wrote:
It doesn't matter if you're Kung Lao, Ermac, or Hector Sanchez: when Smoke gets a hard knockdown on you, you have to guess you're way out...



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Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/16/2012 09:30 PM EST
Adding the latest Tom Brady tier list [February 2012] here:





Revealed in the episode 16 of the Kombat Tomb Podcast where he shares his thoughts about the characters as he goes through the tier list. I'm pretty sure I got all the numbers (total match-up points) right.


Poor Sub-Zero... sad

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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/16/2012 10:28 PM EST
Woah, I knew about Jax being high on the tier list, but I didn't know about Kenshi! I thought it was just luck that let me Babality that one KL player I fought.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/16/2012 10:55 PM EST
Agree with Sub-Zero, he was the most nerfed character in the game. Raiden in my opinion is far from the best, he deals good with slow characters but against fast characters he struggles.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/16/2012 11:28 PM EST
I personally think Mileena destroys Kitana.

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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 02:40 AM EST
Sheeva and Baraka are lower than Stryker and Jade? Not that I'm mad, but I'm surprised at Tom's reassesment of all these characters.

In an earlier segment, he classified more characters as A tier, like really, really good and Sheeva and Stryker were in this really good bracket, they beat out Noob and Jade easily, interesting to see how his personal tier lists changed (I know they change all the time, it's cool to observe).

I'm going to watch the rest of the podcast and report my thoughts on these new developments.

I dunno how I feel about Baraka being worse than Jade though, but I haven't watched his podcast for a detailed explanation.



Unknown265 Wrote:
Woah, I knew about Jax being high on the tier list, but I didn't know about Kenshi! I thought it was just luck that let me Babality that one KL player I fought.


And skill of coursesmile

But of course Kenshi's really bloody good too, his zoning is better than Noob's but with an increased advantage because he has armor moves that Noob lacks and much better rushdown too.




totheark Wrote:
I personally think Mileena destroys Kitana.



I always picture it as even from my experience, I mean Kitana can't zone, but she has such underrated rushdown to back her up, I think she has a slight edge up close on Mileena.


GodlyShinnok Wrote:
Agree with Sub-Zero, he was the most nerfed character in the game. Raiden in my opinion is far from the best, he deals good with slow characters but against fast characters he struggles.


Where would you place Raiden? His strings aren't the fastest, but that teleport more than makes up for it imo. I have him as number 2-3 range for me(not that my opinion matters), but I'd lik to hear your thoughts.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 09:46 AM EST
Yay, latest hotfix = Kabal gets shit on
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 09:54 AM EST
redman Wrote:
Yay, latest hotfix = Kabal gets shit on


And he'll still be really, really good, still one of the best in the game.


He might not even be touched, everyone's worried about nerfs and buffs, but their character might not even be touched.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 04:56 PM EST
I vote for a smaller hitbox for Mileena.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 05:47 PM EST
I will take Stryker's top tier status from UMK3, thanks NRS, you guys are marvelouswink

Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
I'm not a tier whore, he's fine hahaha/trolling
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 05:55 PM EST
redman Wrote:
Yay, latest hotfix = Kabal gets shit on


Doesn't he have a block infinite on big hitbox characters (2~NDC)? If he gets nerfed, he won't be the first nor the last one...

I think what hurt Sub-Zero were all the buffs (armor) other characters got, not so much his nerfs. That's what Brady's been complaining about as a SZ player.

I feel Kitana is going to go down even further. I have a feeling Cyrax, Reptile and Sektor are all better than her, in my humble opinion. I think she's overrated, her wake-up game is pretty much shit and although she has some low/mid mix-ups I'm not sure how useful those are in highest-level play. I don't remember when was the last time I've seen Crazy Dominican use her f4, 1 (high, overhead) or f4, b4 (high, low) mix-up. He pretty much never uses her fake out kick to mix-it up with the b1, 2 string (b1, fake-out kick being the alternative). All of those can get blown up apparently. Hell, I got blown up in the middle of my f4, 1 string while pressuring following a safe jump-in punch by Reptile's X-ray.


/rant (I guess)

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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 06:15 PM EST
Doesn't Reptile's X-ray have armor though? It's not super armor like Sonya's but it has a bit.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/17/2012 07:16 PM EST
Espio872 Wrote:
Where would you place Raiden? His strings aren't the fastest, but that teleport more than makes up for it imo. I have him as number 2-3 range for me(not that my opinion matters), but I'd lik to hear your thoughts.


I would place Raiden below Kitana and Mileena. What makes Raiden good is his teleport, but he depends to much on it and becomes predictable really fast. He also struggles against characters with good mobility because he can't pressure them with the teleport.

Also he can't apply full pressure against certain characters with low hitbox like Kung Lao, Cyrax, and Reptile.

Overall Raiden is a very good character, but the best? Nah.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/18/2012 07:06 AM EST

Kitana being outside the top 5 is probably true. She does well against most of the cast but there's some who have an answer for her zoning and footsies that she'll have enough bad match ups to be disqualified from top 5. The reason Kitana was seen as top for so long is that she's very difficult to adjust to and she blows up low to mid level players. Probably the two biggest flaws weaker competition has is jumping too much and poor footsies. Kitana destroys people that can't get in without jumping and don't have good footsies. I predict she will settle outside the top 5 but in top 15, people will stop respecting rushdown Kitana, and that most top Kitana players will have secondaries for bad match ups.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/18/2012 07:09 AM EST
Also Raiden is #1. Teleport gives him unparalleled control over match ups. It's dumber than people think.

I predict Raiden wins Evo 2012 and everyone screams for nerfs.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/18/2012 08:58 AM EST
Apparently Brady made some tweaks after the podcast:

Latest MATCH-UP CHART by Tom Brady


Some of the Kitana match-ups that surprised me:

5-5 vs Noob Saibot (I thought this was in Kitana's favor)
5-5 vs Nightwolf (I thought this too would be slightly in her favor)
6-4 vs Liu Kang (I actually expected it to be 6-4 in his favor)

Also, not sure what's up with Kano, it used to be bad for her, I hardly have any Kitana vs v1.05 Kano experience.

This all me speculating going with my experiences and from what I've seen/heard from the tourney guys, I'm no way qualified to truly estimate the match-ups, it's just harmless thoughts of mine to please the curiosity within me.

..............................................................................................................................................

Espio872 Wrote:
Doesn't Reptile's X-ray have armor though? It's not super armor like Sonya's but it has a bit.


I was doing the f4, 1 string after I connected a cutter on a grounded opponent which gives you a safe jump in. And, as I jump-in-punched and went for the f4, 1 string (while the Reptile player was blocking) I got blown up by his X-ray in the middle of the string, so the point is that f4, 1 string which ends as an overhead launcher and can be mixed-up with f4, b4 which ends low can get blown up and thus it's not "very useful". Plus, Crazy Dominican once said that he stopped doing that string because it is slow and his brother CD Jr. would react to the mix-up with no problems. I honestly don't remember when was the last time I saw him use it. So basically, she doesn't really have a good low/mid mix-up game. Her throw mix-ups are nice though.

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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/18/2012 09:57 AM EST
I could be wrong but from my testing f+4,1 jails standing block. I cannot get Reptile to armor through it and no one's ever done it to me. However it can be interrupted if the f+4 is crouched. My guess is that after your blocked JIP the Reptile player transitioned into crouch block and then blew you up. The advantage off a blocked JIP is only 16-17 frames depending on how deep the JIP is and f+4 is a 17 frame move. If you mistimed the f+4 after the JIP it wouldn't jail.


I'm skeptical of anyone seeing the f+4,1/f+4,b+4 mixup on reaction. I've heard many claim they could and know good players that have tried to get used to it yet I've never played anyone that could see this on reaction. If CD Jr can he's a huge exception. There's hella exaggerations about how "easy" it is to fuzzy guard 50/50 mixups in MK9...

It's still not that great of a mixup though since everyone knows about the overhead and will stand block. The low is just a sweep you can roll away from, it's nothing to respect. I still use the f+4 string sometimes but for the most part it's better to go for a block string with better chip and meter building and use throw as a mixup if you want a knockdown.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/19/2012 09:35 AM EST
Osu16Bit Wrote:
I could be wrong but from my testing f+4,1 jails standing block. I cannot get Reptile to armor through it and no one's ever done it to me. However it can be interrupted if the f+4 is crouched. My guess is that after your blocked JIP the Reptile player transitioned into crouch block and then blew you up. The advantage off a blocked JIP is only 16-17 frames depending on how deep the JIP is and f+4 is a 17 frame move. If you mistimed the f+4 after the JIP it wouldn't jail.


I see. It did happen online though, so the slightest bit of lag could have caused the problem.



totheark Wrote:
I personally think Mileena destroys Kitana.


When I play as Kitana against a buddy of mine online who's about the same skill level as I am, I struggle in this match. Basically he's, for the most part, staying away from me and throwing sais and I end up chasing him around the arena. The problem is this: because he is the one firing a bunch of projectiles he usually has meter advantage so when I finally catch him he usually has a breaker ready. I try not to jump at all, I feel like he controls the air much better with sais and tele-kicks. Also, I struggle punishing Mileena's enh. tele-kicks with Kitana. I usually only get d1 or d1 + cutter (9% damage) which knocks him far away and I have to chase him around again.

I think this match-up might be easier for Kitana offline, but still probably slightly in Mileena's favor. Although, last night Crazy Dominican's Kitana beat Death's Mileena 2-0 at Winter Brawl without dropping a round, plus he also beat Pig Of The Hut's Mileena at NEC XII. But then again, in both of those matches I felt like Mileena players should/could have thrown more iASs. Then again, maybe CD is just a better player. I don't know...

But yeah, I don't think Mileena "destroys" Kitana. It's probably 5.5-4.5 in Mileena's favor or maybe even 5-5. My biggest nightmare when playing as Kitana remains Reptile, although I haven't fought any impressive Kenshi players, that one might be even worse.

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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/19/2012 11:01 AM EST
Nephrite Wrote:
Also, I struggle punishing Mileena's enh. tele-kicks with Kitana. I usually only get d1 or d1 + cutter (9% damage) which knocks him far away and I have to chase him around again.

I think you can punish it with 2. If you can, linking to a fan lift would be alot easier.

Nephrite Wrote:
But yeah, I don't think Mileena "destroys" Kitana. It's probably 5.5-4.5 in Mileena's favor or maybe even 5-5.

I feel that once you get the stream of IAS's flowing and know when to D4 or Tele limiting her pressure, things begin to go down hill. But seeing how good Kitana's pressure is and seeing Mileena's options out of pressure, I can see that 5-5.
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RE: Latest tier list by Tom Brady
02/19/2012 11:27 AM EST
totheark Wrote:
Nephrite Wrote:
Also, I struggle punishing Mileena's enh. tele-kicks with Kitana. I usually only get d1 or d1 + cutter (9% damage) which knocks him far away and I have to chase him around again.

I think you can punish it with 2. If you can, linking to a fan lift would be alot easier.




I'm pretty sure Kitana can't punish enhanced tele-kicks with 2. Normal tele-kick yes: 2~fan followed by 2~lift.

Kitana's standing 2 is 11 frames if I'm not wrong, I think that's too slow to punish Mileena's enh. tele-kicks.

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