There is a lot that needs to be covered here and I don't have time at the moment, someone else might get to it before me though so hopefully some answers will be addressed.

UMK3 Infinites:

1. Reptile:
- Two Punches, Walk Forward Punch, Dash Infinite
- Three Punches, Dash Infinite
- Corner Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


2. Sonya:
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


3. Jax:
- RH, JPs, 7/5 Hit Combo, LP/HP, Dash Punch Infinite


4. Nightwolf:
- Corner Kick Combo Infinite


5. Kano:
- Grab, aaLP or aaHP Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


6. Mileena:
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


7. Ermac:
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


8. Classic Sub-Zero:
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


9. Unmasked Sub-Zero:
- aaHPx2, Ice Shower Infinite


10. Sektor:
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


11. Sindel:
- Flight Cancel Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


12. Stryker:
- Corner Gun Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Gun Midscreen
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


13. Kung Lao:
- Corner Spin Infinite
- JK, Div Kick Corner Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Spin Midscreen
- Semi Infinite with Whiff Div Kick Midscreen


14. Cyrax:
- Bombs Break Combo Inf (! ^_^)


15. Kabal:
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


16. Shang Tsung:
- Ground Eruption Infinite


17. Liu Kang:
- JK, AFB, RH, Bicycle Kick Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher
- JK, AFB, Bleeding JK, AFB


18. Human Smoke:
- Break Combo Infinite
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher


19. Noob Saibot
- Semi Infinite with Relauncher

OK I'm off the phone, I can go into depth with ded_'s post which I think is directly from ultimatemk.com

1. Reptile's infinites cannot be done on everyone, and even though he can do it to Human Smoke, it doesn't put him above Human Smoke because Forceball traps do not work against teleporters. It is still a danger for H Smoke though to do even one bad teleport. This is unintentional balance. His relaunch infinite only works on Sheeva and is useless at best since he needs it not to beat her.

2. Sonya can relaunch everyone, relaunchers are unreliable at best so they don't count, plus, the chances of someone starting a relaunch infinite from the exact opposite side of the screen is slim.

3. Jax's infinite is nearly impossible to do in game. I will give anyone $100* on the spot if they do one volley of it in person at a tournament on stick, but the biggest factor here is, it only works on Sheeva. Without this infinite, Sheeva already ranks far below him, so the infinite doesn't affect the gameplay.

4. Nightwolf 3 hit kick combo infinite works on Kano, Kabal, Sheeva, and the Robots. It is extremely reliable, and nearly fool proof. It however, does not affect his rank at all since it's very difficult to get the infinite on Kabal or Kano, the only two characters who rank above him in that small list.

5. Kano's grab infinites do not work on everyone because of push back from stretched out characters, eventually he will be too far away. On the characters it does work on, it's extremely difficult to do on top of having a specific set up because there is one frame in the window of availability. Getting a corner combo is easy enough, but it is more worth it to go for the sure damage than his inf since it'll leave you open for probably 50% from anyone he'd need to do it to for the win.

6. Mileena's relaunch infinite works on very few characters, and the damage is so low that it would take a full screen, plus a hefty corner juggle to kill someone.

7. Ermac can relaunch everyone, but it is a worthless attempt since the timing can be difficult due to multiple variables. You are better off going for his sure 48-50% autocombo-juggles.

8. Classic Sub's relaunch infinite is one of the most reliable since the timing is simple and the collision detection is ideal. If you are Kabal, Nightwolf, or Kung Lao, I would worry about someone abusing Classic Sub's relaunch, however, the chances of Classic sub being able to do a full one are slim to none.

9. Unmasked Sub's aaHPHP infinite only works on Sheeva. I would say it's reasonably possible to get this in game, via aaHP freeze in the corner on Sheeva from an attempting JP. They are reasonably close in rank, however, professionally, Sub is ranked quite a bit higher than Sheeva now.

10. Sektor's relaunch infinite is less valuable then his tactics with homing missiles and rush down. He can relaunch a number of characters but since his pop up is only 3 hits, it takes a lot of effort to do significant damage.

11. Sindel's flight cancel infinite is labeled as impossible to do in gameplay. If anyone can perform her FC inf in person at a tournament, I will give them $100* on the spot, using a stick, no questions asked. Her relaunch infinite is worthless except against perhaps Kung Lao, and even then it's one of the harder ones. You're better off going with sure damage with her, considering any punisher combo with her is worth 70%+.

12. Stryker's corner Riot Gun infinite is the first infinite in this list that is universal, and something you might need to worry about against a professional Stryker player. Fortunately, he is a vastly under rated and under appreciated character so there aren't many of those. Stryker's Riot Gun infinite is tricky to perform against some characters, and many times, if you don't time the push back cancel correctly, he will wind up crossing them up in the cornner on the rejump and then the infinite is screwed. I have performed up to 83% or so at the arcades with the corner infinite vs Kabal, with more available to do, but I was nice and stopped. Kabal can still beat Stryker on danger with some effort. His midscreen infinite is useful against the male ninjas, Jax, Stryker, Sub, and the female ninjas. He ranks over most of them partially because of this, so again, this is an infinite to watch out for, but surprisingly, it is for the same character. His relaunch infinite is worthless.

13. Kung Lao's corner spin infinite is the easiest, and nastiest infinite in the game. He is ranked #3 because of his infinite potential, high damage ground combo, and maneuverability. His mid screen semi infinite can be linked into his corner infinite, or reversed back into the mid screen infinite so it is all essentially one infinite with different parts. Again, one character, with 2 useful infinites related to the same breaking point in a move = one infinite. His corner Dive kick infinite variations are useless and limited

So now we're up to 2 dangerous, universal infinites in the game, from the first 13 characters.

14. Cyrax's newly discovered bomb infinite is a tricky one, and ultimately useless. If you place enough time between bomb drops, you can break the combo as they are about to jump, and they still get hit. This is unavoidable, and if a Cyrax player spots the opening, you might be screwed. If anyone can perform a full Cyrax bomb breaker infinite, at a tournament, in person, I will give them $100* on the spot, using a stick. This infinite is universal but worthless.

15. Kabal's relauncher requires starting it with a JKS, 5 hit combo, all the way to the wall, with a corner juggle to kill. If you are basing your Kabal game on his relaunch infinite, retire now.

16. Shang Tsung has multiple variations of the ground eruption infinite. It wouldn't surprise me if a professional Shang Tsung player got this from time to time in a tourament, however, the chances are less than 1%. I've never seen anyone get more than a couple volleys and it requires a LOT of volleys to complete. It is the third real universal infinite not including the Cyrax breaker, that is of some danger but it does not rank up there with Stryker or Kung Lao.

If I could rank Shang Kung and Stryker's infinites with an effectiveness percentage, Kung's would be 100%, Stryker's 90%, and Shang's 25%.

17. Liu Kang's infinites are nearly impossible, and limited. The same deal goes his completing his infinite as the Jax infinite. $100 to the first person who does it.

18. Human Smoke has a relaunch infinite, it is unncessary to use it since he is ranked #2 without it. His breaker infinite is very difficult to time. I've gotten 80% with it, but I still am not 100% sure it's even real because that person could have just been stupid and not blocked.

19. Noob Saibot isn't even a playable character.

*Once someone as done these infinites at an arcade in front of me, the deal is over.

When you start comparing different games with eachother and try to determine which is the most balanced, and that doesn't necessarily mean you can define the game *as* balanced, you have to know a lot of about the fundamentals of the games and not just the characters strengths.

For instance, MK1 is a very, very ultra simplistic game. It is almost literally an advanced version of Pong. There are only 7 playable characters, yet there is still an obvious top tier in Sonya and Johnny Cage. It has been debated as to which character holds number 1, so it's pretty close, but the other characters stand no chance against them. In the end, you have 2/7 with no room for "expert" players for the remaining 5, and the game's overal brokeness rating = 71.5% based upon characters alone. 2/7 = 28.5% subtracted from 100. Since the remaining cast of competitors is 0 you have nothing left to work with. This is a really simple way at looking at it. You have 2 super dominant characters with no chance of anyone else competing with them no matter how good the other players might be. Remember, obviously a noob cannot pick up MK1 and beat every other player who doesn't use Sonya or Cage, but you have to look at things realistically. Looking at MK1's gameplay as whole, it's slow, clunky, unresponsive, no damage scaling, weak juggle system. This all factors into the total brokenness level and it's very difficult to apply math to it.

MK2 has two super domintant characters, and 3 competitive characters that can give them trouble. Essentially high level MKII consists of Mileena vs Jax in projectile trade offs until someone gives in. In Mileena's case vs Scorpion, she might have trouble vs the teleporting, but ultimately it doesn't put Scorpion over just her. Mileena and Jax are hardcore champions of MKII. They dominate the rest of the cast, but Kitana, Kung Lao, and Liu Kang have room for money running in the right hands. If you want to look at it in terms of total character brokenness, you have 2/12 and 3/10 if you eliminate the God tier. MKII's total game brokenness effects it greatly. It is still slow, clunky, and slightly more responsive than MK1. There is still no damage scale, minor tweaks to the juggle system. Improvements yes, but still not enough.

MK3 has Sub-zero, Kabal, and Jax as the God tier, 3/15, with competitive characters in Kung Lao, Kano, Robot Smoke, Nightwolf, 4/12 eliminating God tier. The basic gameplay brokenness is low. It is fast, responsive, the juggle system is excellent, damage protection is now there etc.

UMK3's God tier is Kabal, Human Smoke, and Kung Lao, 3/23, and the remaining 7/20 who are comparable to the previous competitive characters in MK1 II and 3 are Kano, Reptile, Ermac, Robot Smoke, Nightwolf, Sindel, and Jax. Even still, some of the low tier characters can compete in the right hands vs the top tier. UMK3's overall game brokenness level is the least of all, the juggle system is as good as a 2D MK can get and I'll explain why in MK4's "break"down.

MKT is a huge undertaking to grade, it had no arcade release, so it didn't get the right testing. The bosses and Chameleon will be banned from this, but I will include a hypothetical at the end. The God tier consists of Noob Saibot, Rain, MKII Kung Lao and Kabal. Some people just consider it to be Noob and Rain because of their pressure creating easy infinite potential, but Kabal can pressure Noob Saibot just as much as he can pressure Kabal based upon mistake-containment trade off, and he can take on Rain as well since his infinite is not easy vs Kabal specifically. MKII Kung Lao's quick damage and chip damage potential is off the chart. He is maneuverable and deadly, his pressure to autocombo is virtually all he needs. This makes the God Tier 4/32, and the remaining competitive cast, or top tier characters, are Baraka, Kano, Reptile, Ermac, Robot Smoke, Nightwolf, Sindel, Raiden, Jax, Sektor and MKII Jax. 11/28. MKT's gameplay is faster than UMK3's by 33% so this affects player performance and reaction time. As for the bosses, Shao Kahn, Kintaro, Goro, Motaro is the generally accepted tier list. Chameleon is tough to rate because since he changes characters you go from being Noob Saibot, to classic Sub. Often times Chameleon gets stuck as Noob Saibot however...

MK4's God tier is Tanya, 1/15. Jarek and Reptile, 2/14, are the competitive cast. The rest of the characters stand little chance against them. MK4's juggle system was an attempt to improve upon UMK3's. It wasn't an improvement as it breaks a lot of combo situations. Instead of de-evolving it back to UMK3, they added Maximum Damage. This is why I say UMK3's combo and juggle system is as good as it gets.

Overall, MK1, MKII, and MK4 have bad overall gameplay systems, factored in with their generally low overall.

As for generalized top tiers for competition, MK1 = 2/7, MKII = 5/12, MK3 = 7/15, UMK3 = 10/23, MKT = 15/32, MK4 = 3/15. It is tough to judge a game based upon its top tier, but if you look at MvC2: 5/56. There's a problem there.

When you factor in overall game brokenness, playability, and room for "expert" players, things change from time to time. In terms of how far away from the top tier the God tier is, this all is applied. Mileena and Jax are about as far away from the 3rd best character in the game as Noob Saibot, Rain, MKII KL, and Kabal are from the 5th in MKT.

Overall best to worst classic MK games in terms of brokenness, competition, and tiers:

UMK3 (large mid tier ratio)
MKT (large mid tier)
MK3 (moderate mid tier)
MKII (small-moderate mid tier)
MK4 (small mid tier)
MK1 (no - small mid tier)

WOW, nice stuff ok.Just a few more things if you don't mind.

The infinites and semis with the relaunch are the near to impossible ones to time if I'm not mistaken, correct?

The jump in has to be key, I believe I read this in some other threads on here.

Is this right?

And that Cyrax infinite seems near to impossible lol I think I saw that one in the vid, I doubt that one can be done in a high level tourney as you said mk2b also.It's insane.

He's got good combos without the infinite if you ask me though lol.


But great stuff guys, thanks a lot.

relaunchers against specific characters with specific characters are not difficult.

cyrax infinite was never showed because i found it less than a week.

i have different point of view for some stuff but anyway

I found a vid on youtube man, not sure who this player was but he was Cyrax and it was on a player not really doing much.Some of the vids/combos were performed by Shock though, that I remember seeing.

The player, who ever he was I believe he placed two bombs, I think he jumped kicked the guy onto one, then JK, air throw him onto the other bomb placed with precision, then did another jump kick with the air throw followed.

It was something like this, it was like 7 hits 98 or 99% damage.Something ridiculous.It was also in the corner, from the looks of it you can't do this unless it's in the corner.It looked like a set up combo to be honest.

Is the one you're referring to different?When I play I like getting by with 60%, 74% combos that I enjoy doing if the situation presents itself.

BTW, the relaunch combos I thought in high level comp are difficult to pull off consistently?

I could have sworn someone else from here said that if I'm not mistaken.

I guess the characters matter also as you said.

Good stuff.

this clip is from the first umk3/mkt combo vid, its not an inf.

the infinite used bombs, breaks the combo, and you release another bomb, it can be done mid-screen and corner.

relaunchers for example with csub vs kabal/lao, kabal/kano vs sonya, hsmoke vs male ninjas and etc are not difficult at all, at least to get one cycle

So what do you guys mean by "balanced" vs "unbalanced"?

Do you mean a game is unbalanced if it has several fighters that when played perfectly are invincible to any other fighter in the game? But if you had every character that when played perfectly can still be given competition by many other fighters it is considered balanced?

I think this is a pretty interesting discussion. a discussion about the actualy stategic elements of the game and its "balance".

great thread, keep it coming guys

ded, that cyrax combo is new? lol bomb run in combo onto the bomb is a semi? tell me on aim if u can exactly. i still cant download mk4 vid ; (

peace

Interesting, is it possible to see this newer Cyrax infinite then?

When someone can actually pull this off lol, it sounds really hard and it also sounds like that particular situation wouldn't represent itself in most occassions from the sounds of it.

But that's interesting, I gotta try that.

Can you post exactly how it's done, meaning from start to finish in detail and which combo by Cyrax?his 6 hit(7 with jump in) or his 3 hit?Thanks, post the link to the clip if you don't mind thanks.