10 to 1 the AI is going to suck.
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posted06/02/2004 10:28 AM (UTC)by
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The_Purple_Bunny
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BunnyHaetsU - Ramblings of a man who probably shouldn't be allowed into society.

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02/22/2003 07:21 AM (UTC)
I can hear it now, OMG A MOD IS CRITISIZING MK:D FIRE HIM. Hush up. I think this is one point of MK that is gonna get more support than any other critique. Face it, MK has never really had good AI programming. Either it's too easy or it's too hard, or the AI doesn't act like it should, either too offensive or defensive. Let's look:

MK1 - This one was a major pain to beat. As you got up the ladder, more of your attacks get blocked and countered, and the AI almost did nothing much unless you got to Goro, and even then keeping him down was tough. Tsung had the only major weakness in that you could learn when he'd morph, and attack him then. Otherwise, you were stuck trying to force the AI to make a mistake, when they don't do much to being with.

MK2 - If it wasn't for the jumpback trick, this one would take the cake. Unfortunately, they made it so that no only does the trick only work on the Player 1 side, they attach it only to certain characters. Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Kitana, Mileena, and Raiden did not get it. Therefore, if the difficulty of your opponent is high, you get raped. Especially against Liu Kang and Mileena, who if you wanted to jump kick, you'd have to do it at the exact right distance so that they would jump to throw a projectile at you, but your kick knocks them from the air. Play the game on Very Hard with these characters and you'll see. The AI's sudden duck-uppercut in .0003 second move is annoying as well.

MK3 - This one actually had it where it should be. The AI was offensive and defensive to where it was a challenge, but it was still ridden with bad methods. Even with the game on Medium difficulty, play the Master tower, and it's still a pain in the ass. Liu Kang having a triple Bicycle Kick into his 7-hit combo in the corner move helps none. If the AI stopped with that, then you'd fine that the AI was also stupid. Let them run at you, roundhouse, and repeat. It never ends. They could've just removed that and left the rest, but they decided to ruin it completely with...

UMK3 / MKT - Un-freakin-believable. Never mind the fact that the AI is like MK2's in that the AI counter's almost everything like it does, without any flaws (aside from the trick to repeatedly trap them in Sindel's scream), but that they stay the same distance from you, moving side to side as you do, doing nothing until time runs out, or if you get too close or do nothing for a few seconds. Talk about awful gameplay. I thought the game was "Kombat", not "Keep Away". Just makes the game extremely boring when you're restored every match to win by time out, almost never seeing any action, and almost never getting to pull off a finishing move.

MK4 - This has to have the worst AI ever. This AI doesn't even try. Not even on Ultimate difficluty was this game anywhere near hard. Just constantly run in and do the same damn combo over and over. The AI always lets go of their block, and gets hit over and over and over and over and over again, without even trying to fight back. There's just no challenge in this game, period.

MK:DA - This one had just as boring AI as UMK3, and the slow speed of the game isn't even a factor. Set the game to Max difficulty, and the AI does almost nothing. When they do, you can easily block it and combo in return. Since that's all you have to do, there's almost no action because there's almost nobody getting offensive. And with just one major branch combo per character, which is probably what most people use against the AI, you see the same thing over and over and over again. Oh, and the AI's abuse of reversal's is annoying.

So really, if you're gonna make AI, make it so it does something, and when it does, give the person playing some leverage to play back. When I play MK:D, I want AI that's good enough to give me a run for my money, but I also want to be able to become good enough at the game to where I can be its equal. None of this over-offensive or over-defensive BS.
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SAIRUS
06/01/2004 06:37 PM (UTC)
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You're fired!

No really I do understand your anguish, but I kinda found a way around it (and if Ed Boon uses it then I would be severly pissed) is just to play a human. I don't play MK for the arcade mode, but for to play my friends. MK is one of the best party games right next to the old NBA Jam and TMNT games.
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ZeroJinKui
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Death is an adventure... Wanna die?

06/01/2004 06:46 PM (UTC)
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i dotn know what other people think about what you said, but i agree with you 200%, i really hope they work on the AI and make it better
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Ninjaholic
06/01/2004 06:48 PM (UTC)
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I agree completely. I mentioned in an older thread about how crappy the AI has been in every MK. But nobody said anything because everyone was to busy talking about characters having multiple fatalities.
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Chameleon
06/01/2004 07:05 PM (UTC)
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but at the same token jump online when u get upset with the AI.
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Grimm
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06/01/2004 07:07 PM (UTC)
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Stop finding things to complain about. The AI is fine, if you think it's too easy, then turn it on a level higher than normal. If you are going to bitch about how you can't beat it on that, or claim that you have it on very hard, which I know most of you don't, then just keep your comments to yourself.
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The_Cold_Kombatant
06/01/2004 07:20 PM (UTC)
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Who really cares whether the AI is sucky or not in Deception. This game is ONLINE. Against human's. No AI there. Pure Skill against Skill.
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The_Purple_Bunny
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BunnyHaetsU - Ramblings of a man who probably shouldn't be allowed into society.

06/01/2004 07:22 PM (UTC)
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Grimm Wrote:
Stop finding things to complain about. The AI is fine, if you think it's too easy, then turn it on a level higher than normal. If you are going to bitch about how you can't beat it on that, or claim that you have it on very hard, which I know most of you don't, then just keep your comments to yourself.


I really hope that wasn't directed at me, because you'll get shot down fast for making assumptions on things nobody's said.

I'm not bitching, I'm pointing stuff out. If I were bitching, you'd hear "FUCK THIS AI FUCK THIS GAME THIS GAME SUCKS AI HARD" or some stupid n00bish, unpunctuated sentence. By the way, I don't intend to not find things to complain about, because these are things that involve gameplay for times when you don't have anyone else to play against. And it's things like I've pointed out that could seriously hamper single-player experience. I point out what's wrong, so that hopefully it can be fixed. By the way, I hope you see the irony of you saying I'm "bitching" with the post you just made.

I've mentioned already about MK2 through MK:DA being like they are on their hardest settings, so already saying "turn the difficulty up" will have no relevance if it's already turned up.

And of course, since I'm "bitching", I must not have beaten the game. In the 11 years since MK1, 10 years since MK2, 8 years since MK3, 7 years since MK4, 2 years since MK:DA, I'll be damned if I can beat any of those games on their hardest settings in those spans of time.

I have MK2, MK4, and MK:DA set to their hardest difficulties, which is where they've been and where I've been playing them for a very long time. And yes, I've beaten them, just like anyone who tries eventually ends up doing.

Finally, yes. Everyone here, keep your comments to yourself. We don't need to hear what you think went wrong with any of the games. We don't want to have feedback about them. Just don't post about them. Kill the exact reason for this forum to exist. Yeah, right.
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Grimm
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06/01/2004 07:27 PM (UTC)
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Well all you mother fuckers are doing is throwing down the game. Boon is giving you all this good stuff and you are throwing it back in his face. Be glad that he even decided to make another game.

Instead of making a post about how the game sucks, why don't you make something about how you think that game is good for once. I see all these posts about people throwing the game down, and it pisses me off. Like I said, this goes to not just you, but everyone who thinks the AI is bad, turn it on a harder fucking difficulty, and if you still are going to hate it, then just don't play. And like others are saying, it's online. Just play online if the AI sucks.

I would like to hear more good things about this game, than the bad. You guys are like critics.
Edit: Look, I mean no offense. I'm just in a bad mood right now. Just kind of set me off. So I apologize again.
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Dairou
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06/01/2004 07:29 PM (UTC)
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I agree.
Thank you, The_Purple_Bunny.

All of thou shall find a friend to play with or play online.
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*X*BloodyEyes
06/01/2004 07:33 PM (UTC)
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am I smelling flame war?

no, really...I kinda agree with you...but I mostly played the old mk with friends...so the AI matter was kinda irrelevant for me...but in mkda...I totally agree....
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The_Purple_Bunny
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BunnyHaetsU - Ramblings of a man who probably shouldn't be allowed into society.

06/01/2004 07:33 PM (UTC)
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I'm not saying the game itself is going to suck. I doubt it will. This is just one aspect of the game I want improved. Not everyone can have broadband to play on, and some aren't going to have internet on their system period, so AI is their only real opponent until they can fix that.
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SoulEdge316
06/01/2004 07:40 PM (UTC)
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I agree, there was nothing more annoying that the AI in past MK games especially UMK3. The crappy constant jump kick counters, the cheap throws etc.

The CPU is a bitch to beat unless you use any character with a teleport. All you could do was force the opponent to throw a projectile, teleport, stun/capture move, then combo, low sweep, opponent jumps back, rinse and repeat.
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wedgegold
06/01/2004 08:01 PM (UTC)
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Bad mood or not, it is no reason to call people M' F'ers. These were just facts about the AI and how they played. Do I smell a ban coming? I hope.

I totally agree with you bunny. I was an occasional player and when the AI was Difficult, it was obnoxious. But most of the time it was predictable.

But then again, these games were made to be played against another human, for In-Your-Face Fun. That is why it was so popular and successful in the arcade. Now that there will be Online capability, we hope, you'll be able to kick someone's butt across the country or world when you can;t kick your friend's butt.


Grimm Wrote:
Well all you mother fuckers are doing is throwing down the game. Boon is giving you all this good stuff and you are throwing it back in his face. Be glad that he even decided to make another game.

Instead of making a post about how the game sucks, why don't you make something about how you think that game is good for once. I see all these posts about people throwing the game down, and it pisses me off. Like I said, this goes to not just you, but everyone who thinks the AI is bad, turn it on a harder fucking difficulty, and if you still are going to hate it, then just don't play. And like others are saying, it's online. Just play online if the AI sucks.

I would like to hear more good things about this game, than the bad. You guys are like critics.

Edit: Look, I mean no offense. I'm just in a bad mood right now. Just kind of set me off. So I apologize again.

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Garlador
06/01/2004 08:18 PM (UTC)
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I think that AIs can be great and they can be bad, but AIs can never be "human" enough. All computer characters are programmed in a certain way and will act accordingly, but a human player can shift tactics, change methods, and outwit another human player. That's why online is so brilliant, because "real people" can now be the norm for all matches. But, AIs can be good, too, as is the case with Virtua Fighter 4: EVO with had the best players in the world record their tactics, styles, and strategies into their own AI characters, and that's as real as it gets. Fatality.
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RasAlGhul
06/01/2004 08:25 PM (UTC)
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maybe purple bunny should make some friends to play MKD with him. Of course I will play against the computer but I honestly think that fighting the computer in MKDA was really enjoyable, to be constructive what would you do to improve the AI in MKD?
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Grimm
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06/01/2004 08:25 PM (UTC)
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wedgegold Wrote:
Bad mood or not, it is no reason to call people M' F'ers. These were just facts about the AI and how they played. Do I smell a ban coming? I hope.
font>


God do I wish i could speak my mind right now.

I just think the main purpose of this MK is to be online actually. I wouldn't even expect the AI to be any different. I personally never had a problem with it though.
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TemperaryUserName
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06/01/2004 09:07 PM (UTC)
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Grimm Wrote:

Edit: Look, I mean no offense. I'm just in a bad mood right now. Just kind of set me off. So I apologize again.

It happens, man. No worries.

Anyway, after watching Ed Boon play about four or five matches in the E3 video, I can already say the AI is probably going to be completely non-functioning half the time and on the other half... well, let's just say the words "fucking impossible" won't do the situation justice.

This is an age-old problem since MKII, I can't figure out why it hasn't been fixed yet. I hated trying to throw someone in UMK3 only too find they counter-threw ME instead, even though they were still in recovery time. Same thing with most of the MKs, and I'm seeing some of the same issues in the MKD vids.

My programming skills are laughable(which I discovered my Senior year), but I'm guessing the AI problem could be solved within a week's work.
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danadbab
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Hello

06/01/2004 09:26 PM (UTC)
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AI will always suck in a mk game..but it wont matter any more cuse we'll be able to play vs a human all the time now w/ online play..it sucked for all the games mk1-mkda the ai always had a pattern,it did the same thing over and over..anyway i dont care if it will be good or not..now w/ online play...
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Grimm
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06/01/2004 09:30 PM (UTC)
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TemperaryUserName Wrote:


It happens, man. No worries.



Thanks Temp, once again, one of the few people that I have respect for on this board. 2 down, two to go.
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Spirit_Wolf
06/01/2004 09:34 PM (UTC)
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I agree, AI has always been sort of lacking with mk. Probably because they go from a viewpoint that you play each other. But I think that's no excuse for it. There are enough people who end up playing it by their own, and why should they get to fight some intelligent fighters just because they don't have internet, or because they don't have any friends that will come and play.
I always hated it when at certain moments your opponent just stand there, doing nothing, waiting for you to hit him. AI needs a boot.
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MoodyShooter
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06/01/2004 10:04 PM (UTC)
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Even though I know absolutely nothing about programming, I do know that if time is taken with it you can program some very challenging and intelligent foes.... Here's an example...

I recently bought the FPS, Far Cry, for my computer. Yes, I know that it's a FPS and not a fighting game but the way the AI is programmed is excellent. Anyway, I was on a beach against about six mercenaries. I took cover behind some bushes and managed to pick off two of the mercenaries before they ran and hid behind some cover. One accidentally peeked his head out and I shot him square in the face and the enemy found my location. One of the last three mercenaries laid down surpressing fire (constantly shooting in my general direction so that I can't move or return fire without exposing myself) while the other two snuck around to my side and tried to flank me.

Now that may not seem that impressive but it's damn smart for programmed AI not because they used a good tactic but more that they adapted and countered my attack where in other FPS the enemies will just stand around and shoot until they die.

My logic is, if a company can program that kind of intelligent and adaptive AI in a shooting game then why not in a fighting game?
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MajinTsung
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I'm not the Monster

06/01/2004 10:36 PM (UTC)
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I think critisizing the game before it comes out it smarter than critisizing the finished product, ifyou bitch about the finished product then you have to wait for the next game... if you critisize the unfinished it can be fixed and corrected rather than having to wait years for the next installment... later
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Raiden_is_God
06/02/2004 12:45 AM (UTC)
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Ya even on hard the AI was easy
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Garlador
06/02/2004 01:00 AM (UTC)
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Regardless, I'll still probably cheat to win. I'm just that bad a gamer. Fatality.
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