I don't understand what he was trying to say.

Regardless, there's some things in SM that just come completely out of no where. There was not so much of a hint that Reptile and Mileena were friends or "inseperable". That's just so random. And of course there's Quan Chi's amulet. Nothing in MK II hinted or suggested this and it completely goes against everything we know about the story. Adding that in has nothing to do with the various endings of MK II or anything MK II related. It was something NEW. There's no excuse for that.

I said the same thing, when I first read his respones. I was like WHAT!??

but I just posted a response to his statement and I'll share that when he responds. I'll copy and paste what you just wrote on his forum and see what he says.

Unlike Asmodeus, I'm a comic book guy (slash writer) first, and an MK fan second.

That said, I had absolutely no idea that Krueger did Shaolin Monks, and am pretty shocked and disappointed by that.

I mean, deviate as it does by it's very construction, things like Earth X still hold the fabric and history of it's characters very close. Or at least, that's my interpretation, and that's the kind of emotion I've always gotten from Ross, too.

I can only assume he's not very familiar with the games, and wasn't handed very useful source materials to work with, because I don't think the nature of the endings to the games is at all a hindrance.

I don't know if ~Crow~ still posts much, but he might remember me writing a rough sequential recap of the events from the first Mortal Kombat, up to Deadly Alliance, and he was helpful in satisfying my concern for accuracy.

The point I'm trying to make is just that, if you look at all the games, there is a pretty clear map of exactly what did and didn't happen, and there's plenty of room to elaborate between certain sequences without at all jeopardizing what we know.

I've often here, and in the IRC channel mentioned a desire to see the Mortal Kombat franchise handled by an actual writer. My perspective was largely coming from comic book writers, who have successfully been making the regular transition to video games (largely dealing with their own properties; Ultimate Spider-man, X-Men Legends...).

In a medium that deals with on-going stories drastically larger in scale to the Mortal Kombat video games, it's just really disappointing that a comic guy didn't handle it as well as he might've.
Worse still, I imagine this kind of thing might marr the potential for future writers to come on board to script.

So, great post, anyway.
Informative, especially for schlubs like me, who weren't paying attention enough to be in the know.

Agreed.

Cool thread btw Asmodeus. It's nice to at least try to get some explanations from him. I wonder how much story support John Vogel and others had in the story aside from Krueger himself.

Anyway, if I had to pick at least 3 main things to bring up to him, it'd be:

1. Scorpion's almost nonexistant story.

2. Quan Chi in his MKDA look with the whole amulet thing

3. Kitana and the spell stuff

You'd have to think Quan Chi's look was largely attributed to the design team, and programming staff. Like comics, I would think it'd be unusual for a writer to control designs without reason for a special request.

Scorpion's story was great.
Fight at tournament, disappear, attack you in the Netherrealm at length just for the hell of it.

I don't know practise for writing video games, but you'd have to wonder if Krueger even had anything to do with Scorpion. I would imagine there's every chance certain levels and tasks would've been orchestrated without Krueger.

I could be wrong, though.

Scorpion probably assumed that Liu Kang and Kung Lao were allies of Sub-Zero's, and thus vowed to kill anyone Sub-Zero associated with himself so he too could know the pain of losing loved ones.

Sub-Zero probably knew Scorpion wanted them dead when he fought Scorpion in the Netherealm and he makes this clear to him during the fight. Like I said, I think Shaolin Monks is more of Liu Kang and Kung Lao's point of view on MK2 rather than MK2 itself.

Anyway, shaolin monks took some creative liberties, but it's possible to piece it together with mk2. I say let bygones be bygones. What's done is done.

Jim Krueger:

As far as your question goes about the story, here's the biggest issue that the Midway guys faced in doing something that dealt with MK2. It had to do with all the false endings and all the possible different storylines that came out of everything.

So, while this is aet in the MK2 continuity storywise, it doesn't claim to be trying to sugest how all the difeerent mortalities and this and that all fit together. To tell you the truth, there wasn;t even the cahnace of getting to do a Earth X-ish apprah where everything could fit together.

If anything, this is a definitive telling/playing of what really happened amongst all the various myths of what might have happened. I think the issue was that everyone thought that 2nd story had to be told, to move the continuity closer to really being a continuity.

Hope that helps.


Asmodeus:

I really don't understand what your saying.

1) Yes, some of the endings in MK2 were false and presented many "what-if" type senarios, but all of the MK games do this. The endings are the cliff hangers at the end of each "episode," and the intro of the next game explains what took place at the end of the previous. For instance, if you look at the main story of MK3 and each charcaters indivual story, you can figure out which of the endings in MK2 came true and which ones didn't.

2) You said there wasn't a chance to make a story that would fit everything together and explain everything. Why not? what happened, were they rushing to get things done? you didn't have time? Why wasn't the story everything that it could be?

3) In your last statement, it seems that you're trying to say that there is no conection between any of the the games, that their is no real continuity. There is continuity, all the MK games fit together and create a larger story (refere to #1). I imagine that if they, or you, would have conected the story from MK1 to MK2 and made the endings of MK2 flow into MK3, MKSM's story would have been epic story and would have been a great "episode" in the MK saga.

Were/are the other games/storylines irrelivent when looking a Shaolin Monks? Was it never their, your, intent to make Shaolin Monks a part of the saga? Is it meant not to take place in the continuity of the games? Is it a one shot, stand alone game?

If the answer is yes to any of those questions, it would make me feel a lot better. Though it is disapointing not to get a story that explains MK2, I would rather have my own interpretation of what happened then have to except MKSM's story as what really happened.

I mean no disrespected, but many things in MKSM just weren't right and didn't add anything to the existing story and/or characters. In fact it does the opposite and detracts from them in many ways, taking them in different directions, and making things more shallow rather than deeper.

Jim Krueger:

How to answer this. Hmmmm. I'm simply not "the guy" who can answer for the changes made to particular characters or why this was changed this way or why it was made that way. Decisions were made. Storylines were streamlined, and while this is, to a degree, MK2, it's also MKSM.

Sorry, but I really can't answer your questions. that's not an unwillingness, but simply being unable to do it. I can't speak on behlf of Midway. I can say that this was a lot of fun, though, and look forward to future opportunities to do games.




Well I tried. I don't know what I expected to learn from Krueger, I knew he wasn't the one who makes the final decisions, but I guess I hoped that he would have a little more insite to the story of MKSM.

Hmmm, you think this means that we'd have to go to Vogel even though he only did story support?

Yeahm could we perhaps find a way to contact and ask Vogel... I mean I remember he emailed Gavok...

Shaolin Monks and MK2.

They could be one and the same if combined and thought out well.

Yes, I know in the Mileena fight Kitana intervenes and Mileena ends up kidnapping her. But i say that ain't canon because you don't HAVE to do it. It's simply a side thing. If they allude to it in a future storyline, then I will eat my words but until then - I say that little tidbit isn't canon. Yes, I know we see Kitana in prison later on....maybe she killed Mileena offscreen and then was ambushed.

The Kano fight is not canon, because Kano dies and he isn't resurrected by Kahn in the future. Jax rescuing Sonya, however, is. It's just he never met Liu Kang or Kung Lao other than bumping into ol' Kung in the foundry.

As for the bosses dying.......hey, when have we known the MK characters to stay dead? Overlook it.

Shang Tsung gives himself youth. Maybe Shao Kahn allowed him access to the souls in the Soul Tombs? Remember, they are the source of Shao Kahn's power. When souls in Outworld die, they go there. So I don't think Kahn would allow just anyone to use them for a purpose like that.

I think my only problem with Shaolin Monks is that it depicts Liu and Kung doing all the work. I say it's only Liu and Kung's P.O.V., and no one else's. Who's to say Jax or Johnny Cage didn't bump into Baraka or Reptile or Mileena? Maybe Shao sent them after them offscreen. I'd like to think that.

Trying to mix MK2 and MKSM is a bad idea, to many things are left up to interpretation. This is one of the biggest problems/assets with the MK storyline...it's room for interpretation, its mystery. I love the fact that within the storyline some things are left in the air, it leaves room for people to write their own storys and come up with there own ideas. But at the same time, there needs to be some backbone, some things that are set and cannot change. That's what the main problem of MKSM is, they totally ran over the past and replaced it with something un-needed and/or irrelivent, changing a foundation that was thought set in stone, myself, and many others, have a problem with that.

MKSM is a side story that's it. just like the movies,tv shows, and comics (save for the official midway comics).

I know what your thinking, "Midway did MKSM, how do you explain that?"

MKSM's story was out sourced just like the movie and tv shows, end of story. The developers (also out sourced) rushed through the developement process to meet deadlines and, just like krueger said, "decisions were made." The result was an incomplete game with a streamlined story, that's that.

I don't know what the whole story is (the unstreamlined version) and probably never will, but hopefully talking to the right people and keeping my fingers crossed will put me on the right track.

Um, the bosses didn't die at all. We were told by the MK team to "suspend disbelief", therefore, Shang Tsung's little scheme loses its logic and therefore, Liu Kang and Kung Lao couldn't have possibly gone to the Netherrealm and in turn, didn't face Scorpion. Now, some say that they could've just killed random enemies, but that doesn't sound like them at all. They're Shaolin monks thus making them against killing. Also, you'd think that if Liu Kang didn't kill Shang Tsung, Goro, and Shao Kahn, he wouldn't kill someone far less threatening like a random enemy.

The Soul Tombs have to do with Shang Tsung, not Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn restoring his youth and aggreeing to Shang Tsung's plan is an EXTREMELY important part of the MK2 storyline yet that was totally ignored and instead, MKSM basically had this sort of "free for all" type tournament hosted by Shang Tsung and NOT Shao Kahn.

I still don't see how you can piece together MKSM's story to fit it with MK2, but it's just not possible once you truly look deeply into all the details.

So the guy who they brought in to write the story doesn't even know what they were planning or what direction they were going in?

As sad is it may be I think the most likely explination is that Midway simply doesn't know much about the story and doesn't care. I wouldn't be surprised if Vogel and the others don't even understand why we take issue with Scorpion, the amulet and all the other issues with the SM plot.

I think you guys are really going out of your ways to try to take Shaolin Monks down.

Most of the plothole can be explained(or interpreted) if you think for a minute.

It's not like if MK2 set a lot of things in stone...it only explained the beginning and the endings.

Shao Kahn let Shang Tsung retrieve his youth? Shoalin Monks doesn't contradict that. They clearly state that Kahn didn't kill Tsung and let him retrieve his youth in MK2. He didn't kill him and gave him access to the Soul Tomb. That's all. Kahn doesn't have magic powers. The soul tomb filled itself with souls of dead warriors. That's all.

Boss' death non-canon? Of course. They were just there for fun. I hope you guys don't do fatalities in MK2 or else you're creating plot holes yourself! Damn you!

and I've seen people complain about the smallest thing.

But IT waS Told In TEh ORignial THat TEh TarkTAn wEre THerE WheN LiU Came BAck From Teh IslanD!

....so? Shoalin Monks changed that a bité Liu got there then they attacked. Is it that big of a problem? Does it destroy the whole story? No, it doesn't. Get over it.

Sub-Zero THINKS that Noob his is brother. It's not confirmed or anything. I guess that's when he started having doubts and actually started an investigation.

Reptile and Mileena, friends? They both work for Shao Kahn. Who cares, really? That doesn't contradict the story either.

The only problem is the Amulet in the ending. It doesn't make sense at all. Unless, for some reasons, at one point, Quan Chi w ould have gave Kahn a fake(or the real) Amulet and it was never revealed.

Um the Shang Tsung bit youth WAS contradicted. It was originally that Shao Kahn GAVE Shang Tsung his youth back himself as in he did it right there for everyone to see. Liu Kang being at the Shaolin Temples when it was attacked was a minor change...but still, it would've been better storywise if he wasn't. Sub-Zero should not have any knowledge that Noob is his brother AT ALL. Geez people who say there are explanations really don't think that about the mythology of MK that much..

Here: I made a comparison to the differences between MK2 and MK:SM's storylines on wikipedia and somebody else tweaked it up a bit. Here we go:

The official Mortal Kombat II comic book was believed to be canon since it was written by John Tobias himself.

Kung Lao's original story was that he did not want to be the Champion of Mortal Kombat and was more of a quiet, brooding, reluctant hero who only fought when he had to. Instead, Kung Lao is depicted as being arrogant and shows resentment towards Liu Kang for winning the Mortal Kombat Tournament and desires to be Champion himself.

Liu Kang was not present when the Tarkatas attacked the Shaolin Temple, his Mortal Kombat II bio made this very clear. In the game, he is present and helps fight off the Tarkata.

Raiden is said to warn the Earthrealm warriors of what is happening, but also according to his Mortal Kombat II bio, he disappears after doing so, believed to have ventured into Outworld alone. Here, Raiden (although actually a disguised Shang Tsung, but still nonetheless a change) guides Liu Kang and Kung Lao through Outworld, thus the Raiden disappearing is never known until the end of the game when originally, all of the Earthrealm warriors knew that Raiden had disappeared.

The final battle in Mortal Kombat goes about differently according to the Mortal Kombat II comic. After Liu Kang defeated Goro, becoming the new champion of Mortal Kombat, Shang Tsung challenged Liu Kang to Mortal Kombat, forcing all the other fighters into an alliance. Kano, Sonya and Johnny Cage fight an enraged Goro at the Pit while Raiden along with Scorpion and Sub-Zero fight Shang Tsung's army on the beach. After Liu Kang defeats Shang Tsung, the island begins to crumble and Liu Kang escapes on his own. Scorpion fights with Sub-Zero, killing him and then turns to ash. At the Pit, the bridge breaks and Goro, Sonya and Kano all fall to their apparent deaths while Johnny Cage manages to grab onto the edge and is saved by Raiden. In Shaolin Monks, the fighters are all at Shang Tsung's palace fighting one another, Scorpion vs. Sub-Zero, Sonya vs. Kano, Johnny Cage vs. Reptile, with no mention of Liu Kang defeating Goro. Kung Lao, who was disguised as a masked guard saves Liu Kang when Shang Tsung tries to devour his soul and then fights with Baraka, who was never confirmed to be at the tournament either. Just as Liu Kang lands his Flying Kick on Shang Tsung, Goro comes out and attacks all the Earthrealm warriors. Shang Tsung opens a portal and escapes to Outworld with Goro, Kano, Baraka, Reptile, and most strangely among fans, Scorpion following him through. It begs the question as to how Scorpion could've gotten back to kill Sub-Zero and why you see Reptile on the Pit bridge later on.

In his Mortal Kombat II bio, it is stated that Shao Kahn was the one who gave Shang Tsung his youth back which set Mortal Kombat II's story into motion. In Shaolin Monks, he gets his youth back at the Soul Tombs.

Aside from a brief mention of the character, there is no further information about the impending Sindel resurrection in Mortal Kombat 3.

There is no actual tournament in Shaolin Monks.

There is no mention of Sub-Zero's mission to complete his brother's failed assignment to assassinate Shang Tsung. Instead it is implied that his Mortal Kombat 3 story is taking place at the time.

Goro is not thought to be dead after Mortal Kombat, nor does it seem he goes into exile until he reemerges in Mortal Kombat 4, since Kitana and Mileena know where he is.

In Noob-Smoke's Mortal Kombat: Deception ending, it is mentioned that Sub-Zero and Noob Saibot have not seen each other since before Noob Saibot became a wraith.

Quan Chi getting the amulet at the end of the game spurred a huge controversy among fans of the series. It is believed that Quan Chi had it since the end of Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero. Here, it is rather strange that Shao Kahn has it and Quan Chi gets it from him.

Other controversial matters:

The reasons behind Scorpion's boss battle has been highly criticized by fans, who felt it was out of character for Scorpion to just after Liu Kang and Kung Lao all of a sudden. This made it look like Scorpion had an evil alignment, even though Scorpion is meant to be a neutral character throughout the course of the MK Timeline.

Kitana being under a spell.

Kung Lao scarring Sub-Zero with his hat

There.

I have a question, why are some so determined to prove Shaolin Monks is canon? If you really think about and really try to incorporate it into the story, it adds nothing worth keeping. The storyline is disposable and nothing would be missed. If anything...it takes a lot away.

Prime example: Kitana under a spell.

This is Kitana's storyline before MK:SM:
After conquering Edenia, Shao Kahn took the newborn Princess Kitana and raised her as his own daughter. She grew up to be one of personal assassins until she at some point in her life learned the truth about her past and family. She then vowed to overthrow Kahn and restore Edenia. She feigned loyalty to him until MK2 when she secretly started to help the Earth warriors.

Now Kitana's story after MK:SM:
After conquering Edenia, Shao Kahn took the newborn Princess Kitana and raised her as his own daughter. She grew up to be one of personal assassins until she at some point in her life learned the truth about her past and family. She then vowed to overthrow Kahn and restore Edenia. At some point she was caught and put under a magic spell that made her loyal to him again until MK2 when she was accidently set free by the Earth warriors.

Do we really need that change? Do we want it? Did it add anything worth while? It was just a contrived plot device to make Kitana a boss fight.

Why do you fight Scorpion? They don't give a reason. We can come up with theories all we want but who the hell really knows because Scorpion's story and character has completely disintergrated since MK4.
What was the real reason you fight Scorpion? 'Cause God forbid Scorpion doesn't show up in a Mortal Kombat. That's it.

Stuff like Liu Kang actually being at the Shaolin Temple massacre and Shang Tsung restoring his own youth aren't big deals. I had no problem with them. So I think to myself, since I'm ignoring most everything else in this story, why not these plot points, too?

Even if you look at Shaolin Monks as a stand-alone story...completely ignoring all the other MK games....it's not a good story. It's not an improvement over MK2's storyline.
The purpose of retconing the past is to get rid of uneeded plot baggage or make them fit with future events better. And MK:SM does neither. It doesn't fit with future events well...if at all....and it adds unneeded plot baggage while at the same time, dumbing down the overall plot.


I don't think you understand the complaint there. Shang Tsung's evil scheme depended on Liu Kang and Kung Lao killing the bosses (never mind that it's out of character for Liu Kang and Kung Lao to randomly murder people). If the bosses didn't die....then his scheme doesn't happen. So what then..?


One of the big surprises of Deception was the revelaton that Noob Saibot was the original Sub-Zero. And one of the most interesting questions that came from that was "How's Sub-Zero going to react when he finds out?"
Turns out he already knows. And he's known for some time. Pissing all over the impact.
Not to mention Noob-Smoke's ending says they hadn't seen each other since before Noob became a wraith but....

Judging from Mr. Krueger's response, he simply wrote the story as a work-for-hire job. He has no investment in Mortal Kombat and was probably only given a vague outline of what Midway wanted...going back to what I mentioned earlier....
"We want Kitana in a boss fight, but she's a good guy. Make something up."
"Make sure Scorpion shows up."
"There needs to be a twist in the ending...do something with Quan Chi."
...and he made up the rest. He said himself he didn't play MK2 and didn't know the storyline.
And judging from the Fight Night interview, it's pretty clear the MK Team put very little thought into the storyline either.

So why must we consider Shaolin Monks canon? Because it exists? Because it's there? I say if some people can say MK:Special Forces isn't canon, despite the fact it exists, I can say MK:SM isn't canon and I can get away with it because MK:SM's story...like MK:SF's story...is disposable and easily ignorable.


...thus ends another incoherant rant on Shaolin Monk's inferiority. Thank you and have a pleasent tomorrow.

Thank you XiahouDun84!!

Come on people, stop being fanboys and start being a fans.

Be that as it may, I have a feeling that they went on a point to release MKSM with the intention to use some stuff from there in MK7. I suppose MK7 will say on SOME things what is canon and what is not.

Yeah, you're right about the fanboy label with me. It's just I think MK's story is so cool, with new things being revealed with each game. I still say it's possible for the two to co-exist. But, as good of a game as MKSM was, I don't think they should do more games based on already established games. It's for the best.

mmmm......I never read the comic book, so I couldn't know.

Well, that's interesting. Seems like Shaolin Monks was just the MK2 characters and story completely modified.

I would still like a game based on MK3, even if it's non-canon.

This is why the MK story sucks, you get a professional writer to tell you a story about golf, but if he has never played golf how the hell is he supposed to know what its about.