The_Truth Wrote: Why is Shang Tsung (for example) deep and complex? There are a number of things really. First of all, Shang Tsung isn't what he appears to be, both physically and metaphorically. Shang Tsung doesn't even have a natural human appearance, he's actually a very disgusting monster (Tobias I believe drew a picture of his true form). He's been Shao Khan's most trusted sorcerer for ages not because of his sneakiness but because he can get things done... Only problem is that some unforseen and unexpected thing always brings his dreams and plans crashing down. Why is he evil? I'll tell you why he's evil, he's evil because he's been alive for thousands upon thousands of years wielding incredible power. Over a life span such as his and with his powers I'd grow a bit evil myself, let me tell you. Being able to take someone's soul to not only prolong my own life but to gain the knowledge and abilities of the person whom soul I just consumed? Forget about it. Most of all, Shang Tsung wants power. Absolute power. It's why he joined with Shao Khan in the first place and why he turned on him when Quan Chi came to him in DA. Why does he want to conquer the realms? He's a major villain for crying out loud! You know what I'm talking about, if a villain is in a video game, comic book, movie, etc. then it's his right to try to conquer/destroy the world. It's what villains of his type do, it's what they were made for lol. He's also petty and holds grudges because we all know the story between him and Kang and Raiden. We've also seen his treacherous side (Shao Khan), his cruel side (Li Mei's people), his manipulitive side (Kenshi). He's got all the basic and most important evil traits that make a villain a villain. As for Sub-Zero... I'll let somebody else type it. I don't care to type anymore lol.

But see here's the thing, IMO, this doesn't prove Shang Tsung is any deeper than anybody else. He may still be deep and complex, but there's no real proof.
To say Shang Tsung is evil becaue he's a villain and that's what he does just because, that's not deep. You could say the exact same thing about any other villain. In my opinion anyway, I can't say I'm some kind of authority on character complexity.
You say that's the way it is in comic books and other video games but compare two comic book villains: Dr. Doom and Toyman. We know why Doom is the way he is and we know why he does what he does and that's what makes him deep and complex. Toyman's just a villain because he is.
EDIT: I'm just using Toyman as an example. I'm not saying Shang Tsung is anything like Toyman or something because Toyman's a loser and Shang Tsung is cool.

great thread on kitana and mileena man! kitana has always been my favorite but after hearing all about mileena im not sure anymore i agree in saying that the two of them are the most complex characters in the game and yeah you guys should put a book together id buy it :-p

wtf how the hell do you get all th ese paragraphs out of a made up game character...

Though Kitana has always been my favourite character, I will agree that Mileena, as a character has gained more depth over time. Kitana is, sadly, stagnating and I hope that something is quickly done about it. Overall, I think that the entire plotline of the Edenia and the characters involved in it's struggles is probably the most complex of those related to Mortal Kombat, Sindel, Jade and even Rain included.
I love the duality between Kitana and Mileena. And I love that Mileena has evolved from a twisted version of Kitana into very much her own character. I think it would be great if the "get revenge on Kitana" storyline ended and Mileena moved on to something bigger and more complex.
I love threads like this one!

XiahouDun84 Wrote: I could probably do one on Scorpion or Sonya and some may feel that they is the deepest character.

I once saw a post were you stated you believed Sonya to be the 3rth most deepest character of Mk. It would be really nice to hear your opinions on the matter. I hope you write one some day.
Gillbob316, while I do agree with HALF of your post, I think there is no doubt this thread is amazing.

I love both these women! Excellent job on the bios. And awesome thread!
Here’s my take on things.
Kitana kicks ass and always has done. She will always be a fave of mine. What Kitana needs to learn is that she cannot redeem herself. She cannot undo the evil that she did before. No amount of good will make up for that. The assassin inside of her will always be there. She’s still fighting to this day using the skills she used then to fight against evil .It will always be apart of her.
Kitanas main motivation isn’t just redemption imo. Finding her identity is also apart of it. She has an identity crisis. She was brought up as an assassin. She needs to know what she would have been like had she been brought up by her normal parents. Would she have been evil? Good? A bit of both?
She shouldn’t be sorry for the things she did. She wasn’t to know and she did what she thought was right at the time - protecting he supposed father. Now she had to protect and regain her mother and learn from her who she should be. Whilst getting part of the redemption she wanted and saving her mother.
Going back to what I said, evil will always be apart of Kitana. Her now working for Onaga through being resurrected could prove to be interesting. Will evil consume her being once more, or will she pull through and combat evil. Or maybe, being evil will make her realise that she misses this side of her somewhat. It may teach her that she has to be evil at times to get to where she wants to be. She must forgive herself! It will however tear her apart if she escapes from the Dragon Kings hold. Finding out she did evil for another bad guy will send her overboard, maybe.
As for her story with Mileena, I guess she just won’t want anything to do with her. Mileena is just something that was there to be created in her likeness and used to bring her down and replace her. Why would anyone want to consort with such a thing? Although, Kitana may have decided she didn’t want to kill and so tried to talk with Mileena as said but this backfired and they ended up in conflict. Now it’s a case of Mileenas jealousy and rage coming through and fuelling a mad rage against Kitana. Kitana could basically be using this to an advantage by hurting Mileena where it hurts her the most. Her heart. She is an assassin after all. She needs to know her enemies weakness. However, Kitana may also feel pity towards Mileena. Which is why she never really harms her directly in any endings.
As for Mileena, this girl will always be great! Mileena started off as somebody. She was Kitana, cloned. She had an identity. Only her faced ruined it for her. Her face destroyed her hopes and dreams. No one likes to see themselves ugly. Mileena was unlucky to be born with emotion. She’d have been the perfect killer had she not been given emotions. Her face would have been nothing to her and she would go about killing without a care in the world.
Her emotions lead to the wanting of acceptance and the want to be seen equal to Kitana. Perhaps now that Kitana is evil once again, she and Kitana could join forces and work together. However, this is unlikely due to Mileena hatred. And besides, Mileena wants revenge for being seen as second best. And she will probably try to make Kitana good. Why? It’s obvious! She will want her enemy at her strongest, as herself. She needs to prove herself against the good Kitana, not the evil resurrected Kitana.
And the other thing missing from Mileenas list of motivation is purpose. (This is the Matrix lol) Well, she was created to watch over and replace Kitana. This is no real purpose. Mileena wants a proper purpose in life and her power hungry nature may be her crying out for something which she believes will allow her the power to go about achieving said purpose. Part of her purpose was also now to destroy the top being that was Kitana and destroy the veil that was Kitanas shadow and emerge victorious and supreme.
Also, her partial beauty is a weapon as you said. Think Poison Ivy or some other femme fatale. Beautiful and deadly. The veil hides her inner demon and inner nature.
Mileenas relationship with Baraka is one that helps her in her quest for power. Baraka is basically an aid to her. However, if he ever got in the way of her quest for power, then she would turn on him n a second. You cannot help her without having to be careful about treading on her toes too. And, if someone were to defeat Kitana before Mileena, I believe she would freak out even more. Seeing someone else defeat the adversary she has tried to thwart so many times would send her over the edge. She has issues as you say. Though I don’t think she can be helped. She will be forever used and she seems blind to this fact.
Also, factor in that Tanya is now in on the Deception. Mileena will have to face her for possession of the Edenian throne. Tanya is in Mileenas way. This will get uglier than Mileenas face I can assure you!
Both are as deep as each other. I can't wait to see where their stories go. I wouldn't choose one over the other. They might try to kill me! *Is in fear of Mileena mostly* lol Shit, Kitana will be pissed about that!
Damn, I wrote a lot! Lol Once again, great thread!

I just realised that I never commented on Mileenas relationship with Kahn or Kitans relationship with Kang. I guess I can save them for another time.
I'll add this thread to my sticky too.

Which half? I don't see how the heck you divided it up that easy... seems like a post that would get into like... 16th's... hehe...

tgrant Wrote: I love both these women! Excellent job on the bios. And awesome thread! Here�s my take on things. Quote whore. Damn, I wrote a lot! Lol Once again, great thread!

tgrant, that was a perfect description of Kitana. I agree with everything you said about how she needs to realize she'll never undo the evil she did and that there is evil in Kitana that will never completely go away. Loved your idea that she kind of misses it, too.
And I agree if Kitana manages to break free from Onaga's control, the consequences of whatever she may do as his bodyguard could be devestating for her.
Great thoughts on Mileena too. Again, I agree with everything you said. And I like how you pointed out that Mileena would want to fight Kitana at her best and how if someone else were to defeat Kitana before her she'd freak out. It should be interesting to see how Mileena reacts when she learns that not only is Onaga keeping Kitana alive but she's also his bodyguard. Suddenly, Mileena's back where she started.
And I agree about Mileena's lack of purpose. She needs to escape Kitana's shadow and form her own life, however that may lead to her fighting with Tanya over who will gain control of Edenia.

That's a good info!
That's great info that you put in there, I think most of the stuff that you said makes a lot of sense. I think that if we really think about it, we can go deeper into their stories because they have many things that connect them and things that make them better characters apart from each other. I hope we learn more about their connections in Deception, because they are both great characters even though their stories can sometimes have their 'highs' and 'lows' in some games. Hopefully in Deception their story will clear many things up, that it was hard to understand before.

XiahouDun84 Wrote: tgrant, that was a perfect description of Kitana. I agree with everything you said about how she needs to realize she'll never undo the evil she did and that there is evil in Kitana that will never completely go away. Loved your idea that she kind of misses it, too. And I agree if Kitana manages to break free from Onaga's control, the consequences of whatever she may do as his bodyguard could be devestating for her. Great thoughts on Mileena too. Again, I agree with everything you said. And I like how you pointed out that Mileena would want to fight Kitana at her best and how if someone else were to defeat Kitana before her she'd freak out. It should be interesting to see how Mileena reacts when she learns that not only is Onaga keeping Kitana alive but she's also his bodyguard. Suddenly, Mileena's back where she started. And I agree about Mileena's lack of purpose. She needs to escape Kitana's shadow and form her own life, however that may lead to her fighting with Tanya over who will gain control of Edenia.

Thanks, dude!
Kitanas one is one which I think many can relate to in a sense, so it’s pretty easy to see where she’s coming from in terms of her actions.
Hopefully, her current story will help us see more of her own personality unearth itself. This is a perfect example of conflict in her story and to see how she copes with it will be interesting.
As for Mileena, Kitana will always be someone she will compare herself with, whether Kitana is dead or not. She will always set out to be better than the one she was cloned to be.
I expect fireworks when she finds out that Onaga has Kitana alive. But as I said, she will want Kitana at her best before defeating her. And I think eliminating Tanya and taking the Edenian throne will be a way of ensuring that.
Once again, great thread.

tgrant Wrote: I expect fireworks when she finds out that Onaga has Kitana alive. But as I said, she will want Kitana at her best before defeating her. And I think eliminating Tanya and taking the Edenian throne will be a way of ensuring that.

I agree, I think between that and Tanya we may see the beginning of something big happening in Mileena's story. Maybe she'll switch sides or go rogue...
I really would like to see Mileena and Tanya feud; it'd be interesting to see how Mileena would deal with a new opponent other than Kitana. Also, Tanya's been known to be pretty manipulative, maybe she could use Mileena's weaknesses against her?
I hope in Deception we get more info on Tanya's background to see if she fits into Kitana or Mileena's stories.
And for that matter I hope we find out more about Jade too because we don't know a lot about her other than she's very good friends with Kitana. I'd like to find out more about her friendship with Kitana and what, if any, connections she may have with Mileena or Tanya.

I posted this thread at MK:Hideout and I've seen some interesting thoughts. I noticed a lot of people feel Scorpion is the deepest character which I think deserves debate, so I wrote up an analysis of him and I'd like to here people's opinions on it and how he compares with Mileena or Kitana or anybody else.
And I guess there is question over what this has to do with Deception. Well, I think if we can understand the characters and what motivates them, we can get more insight on what may happen in Deception or future games.
Scorpion
Again, what we already know about Scorpion.
We learned in MK: Mythologies that Hanzo Hasashi's father was a member of the Shirai Ryu. He forbade Hanzo from joining because he didn't want his son to spend his life as an assassin, however Hanzo joined against his father's wishes because he wanted to provide a comfortable life for his wife and child. He was code-named Scorpion and became a master of shuryuken, throwing weapons.
He was hired by Quan Chi to steal the Map of the Elements from the Shaolin Temple in China. However during the mission he ran into Sub-Zero of the Lin Kuei. They fought and Scorpion was killed. His soul was sent to the Netherealm where he then learns that after his death his family and clan was wiped out by the Lin Kuei. He later again encountered Sub-Zero, but was again defeated.
In MK1 Scorpion is offered by either Quan Chi or Shinnok to return to avenge his death. He is given a new body and becomes a spectre and allowed to return to Earth to kill Sub-Zero. To do so he enters Shang Tsung's tournament where he tracks down Sub-Zero. They fight and this time Scorpion is victorious. He kills Sub-Zero and then returns to the Netherealm, however he is forced to forget his family in return for his revenge.
In MK2, Sub-Zero mysteriously returns so Scorpion again returns to kill Sub-Zero. Now this is where it gets hazy. He either:
a) Discovered that this Sub-Zero wasn't the one that killed him and vows to protect him to atone for murdering his older brother.
b) Failed to kill this new Sub-Zero.
In MK3 Shao Kahn invades the Earth he attempts to steal the souls of the Netherealm. He fails, but in the chaos that followed, Scorpion was able to escape. Because of the Outworld portal being open, Scorpion cannot be summoned back to the Netherealm leaving him free to roam Earth again. He either:
a) Was offered to join Shao Kahn against the Earth warriors but refused when he realized the younger Sub-Zero was one of them. He joins Earth's forces and helps in Shao Kahn's defeat. With the Outworld portal closed, Scorpion is summoned back into the Netherealm.
b) Tried to kill Sub-Zero and failed again.
In MK4, Quan Chi offers to give Scorpion his life back if he serves Shinnok. Scorpion accepts but also:
a) Was deceived by Quan Chi into believing Sub-Zero was involved with the massacre of his clan and family, causing him to break his vow to protect Sub-Zero.
b) Was after Sub-Zero again.
Scorpion tracks down Sub-Zero and defeats him. However, before he can kill Sub-Zero, Quan Chi reveals that he really killed Scorpion's clan and family as payment to the Lin Kuei for getting the Map of the Elements. Quan Chi attempts to banish Scorpion to the 5th Plane of the Netherealm, but Scorpion manages to drag him into the Netherealm as well.
In MK:DA we learned Scorpion's power grows the longer he stays there and that now Quan Chi's powers were useless against him. Scorpion takes advantage and proceeds to make Quan Chi pay for murdering his clan and family. This goes on for a few years until Quan Chi recruits Drahmin and Moloch to defend him. Scorpion is unable to defeat them both at once, but continues to try, as his power is growing.
Quan Chi escapes the Netherealm and Scorpion follows. He tracks down Quan Chi to Shang Tsung's home but Quan Chi's power has returned to him. Scorpion is caught off guard and defeated, apparently "killed" because his body was thrown into the acid vat. He somehow regains his body and escapes the Netherealm again and continues to hunt Quan Chi.
At some point he's ambushed by Moloch and Drahmin and overpowered by them. They throw his body into the Soulnado where he would have been destroyed but he managed to escape into a void just in time. There he encounters the Elder Gods and they send him back with a new mission: stop the Dragon King.
Well, in MK: Mythologies we get some insight on Scorpion's devotion to his family. He was willing to disobey his father's wishes and risk his life every day by being an assassin just so he could provide a good life for his wife and child. Unfortunately, we don't get much more info than that. All we know for certain is that Scorpion valued his family above everything else which comes into play even more so later in his life.
If you've played Mythologies, when you fight Scorpion in the first level he taunts you quite a bit so I guess Hanzo was pretty arrogant about his abilities. And he was apparently so arrogant, he saw no reason to use his shuryuken abilities. Ultimately, Scorpion's arrogance leads to his downfall and he is defeated, which is a start of a trend for Scorpion to let a flaw of his defeat him. After his defeat, he asks for mercy from Sub-Zero which is refused as Sub-Zero tears Scorpion's head off. I guess this is why Scorpion was so pissed about being killed. Perhaps he thought Sub-Zero's lack of mercy was dishonorable? In the Mortal Kombat comic, Scorpion claims he is "not a murderer," so maybe he preferred not to kill his defeated enemies?
After his death he learns that his family and clan has been massacred which enrages him even more so. If we assume Scorpion wasn't keen on killing defeated enemies, he certainly was against killing their families. If he found no honor in killing his opponents, then he would despise the idea of killing an opponent's family. These are the first hints of Scorpion's latent honor which ultimately influences his actions.
Scorpion encounters Sub-Zero in the Netherealm and is PISSED. He believes the Lin Kuei destroyed his family and clan, which we already know he's devoted to. So this dishonorable act enrages Scorpion like nothing else and he attempts to avenge his dead family and clan. However, Scorpion again lets a flaw defeat him. While before it was arrogance, now it's blind rage. Before Scorpion attacks, Sub-Zero tries to reason with him, but Scorpion refuses to listen. He lets his fury blind him and he finds himself defeated again.
I think Scorpion's time in the Netherealm between this point and MK1 changes him. While before he was may have been a believer in mercy, he now knows mercy does not exist. He has now lost everything: his family, his clan, his life, and by being defeated twice he has lost his honor as a warrior. And by failing to avenge the deaths of his family, he has dishonored their memory. All Scorpion has left now is anger and a thirst for revenge.
Before MK1, Quan Chi offers Scorpion a chance for revenge. Of course, he has his own reasons for wanting Sub-Zero dead, but Scorpion probably doesn't know or care. I think Scorpion also finally realized that he must learn discipline. His arrogance got him killed and his blind anger led to his second defeat. In the MK comic, we see Scorpion containing his anger and resisting the urge to murder Sub-Zero right there so I think Scorpion taught himself how to use his anger to focus and fight better.
In MK1, Scorpion finds Sub-Zero and kills him, which brings us back to Scorpion's feelings about killing opponents. Scorpion shows Sub-Zero no mercy and kills him, betraying his own beliefs about murdering opponents. But Scorpion does not care about dishonoring himself because his honor is already gone. He lost it when Sub-Zero defeated him. Scorpion finds small satisfaction in his victory but gains little peace. And we learned in Scorpion's ending, that he must forget about his family, I guess as payment for being allowed to return to avenge his death.
In MK2, Sub-Zero mysteriously returns, causing Scorpion to rise again. (Some may question why Quan Chi or Shinnok would send Scorpion back if he knows the original Sub-Zero is dead. I imagine it was more Shinnok who was still pissed about the Amulet being stolen and decided it wasn't enough to have Sub-Zero killed. Or maybe Shinnok and Quan Chi suspected this Sub-Zero could be a potential threat to their planned invasion. And finally, hey, it's Quan Chi. He's a prick.)
Now, this is where Scorpion's story gets blurred and what happens next does affect Scorpion's character. I'll explain what happens under option (a) first, where Scorpion learns that this Sub-Zero is really the younger brother.
During MK2, Scorpion witnesses Sub-Zero spare a defeated opponents life which makes him realize that this might not be the Sub-Zero he knew. He later learns this is the younger brother and Scorpion vows to protect him to atone for murdering his brother. Some wonder why Scorpion would feel the need to atone for avenging his death. Well, as I said, Scorpion knew there was no honor in avenging his death. He was defeated twice, so what right did he have to kill Sub-Zero? Also, Scorpion probably sees that there is good in this new Sub-Zero and he deserves Scorpion's protection. And finally, maybe Scorpion believes this way he may regain some semblance of his honor.
By refusing to kill the younger Sub-Zero, Scorpion is pulled back into the Netherealm by Quan Chi and Shinnok and I doubt they were pleased. No longer interested in killing Sub-Zero, Scorpion must remain in the Netherealm forever. However, Scorpion finds a chance to escape when Shao Kahn attempts to steal the souls of the Netherealm. Similar to Johnny Cage, Scorpion's soul can't return to the Netherealm because the Outworld/Earth merger is blocking pathways to the afterlife. Free to roam the Earth unchecked, Scorpion holds allegiance with no one. He has no reason to. He's just glad to be on Earth again and to (sort of) have his life back.
However, Scorpion is approached by Shao Kahn who wants Scorpion to join his army. What's in it for Scorpion? As long as the Outworld portal is open, Scorpion can't go back to the Netherealm. However, Scorpion discovers that the younger Sub-Zero is one of the Earth warriors Shao Kahn wants dead. This is an important moment in Scorpion's story. Now he must make a choice: does he serve Shao Kahn and continue to live on Earth or does he honor his vow? Ultimately, Scorpion's honor wins out and he joins the Earth warriors. By assisting in Shao Kahn's defeat, Scorpion pretty much gives up his life on Earth to honor his vow. With the portal closed, Scorpion is pulled back into the Netherealm.
However, in MK4 Quan Chi offers to give Scorpion his life back if he serves Shinnok. But Quan Chi knows Scorpion's been in this position already with Shao Kahn. When he discovers Sub-Zero is one of the Earth warriors, he'll try to protect him. But Quan Chi already has a plan. He triggers Scorpion's memory of his clan and family and deceives Scorpion into believing the younger Sub-Zero was involved. Now Scorpion is really pissed. All this time he's been protecting the man who helped murder his family. Now Scorpion wants this Sub-Zero dead too and he joins Shinnok's forces.
Scorpion tracks down Sub-Zero and they fight. However, like his brother before him, Sub-Zero is defeated. However, before Scorpion can finish him, Sub-Zero reveals it was really Quan Chi who killed his family and clan. Quan Chi confirms this and reveals he only used Scorpion to defeat the Sub-Zeros. He attempts to send Scorpion back into the Netherealm, but Scorpion's rage proves too strong as he manages to drag Quan Chi into the Netherealm as well. Once there, Scorpion is able to unleash his wrath on Quan Chi.
Scorpion's anger against Quan Chi is deeper than "you killed my family." Quan Chi pretty much created Scorpion. He put Scorpion together from day one as his ultimate undead weapon. Orchestrating Scorpion's defeat at Sub-Zero's hands, only to use him to kill Sub-Zero and manipulating the memories of his family, Quan Chi made Scorpion what he is and has been using him ever since. Quan Chi took away more than Scorpion's family. He took away his life, his honor, and his soul.
From here we go to MK:DA where nothing really significant happens with Scorpion's character. (Probably why a lot of people got so tired of Scorpion in MK:DA.)
So we see that while on the outside, Scorpion is a revenge-crazed loner, he retains a sense of honor and nobility. Only two things matter to him: his family and honor. Obviously he is so devoted to his family that he's willing to literally go through Hell for their memory. And in MK3 we see him give up his life on Earth to honor his vow.
Generally, Scorpion is a noble man, but he is flawed. Sometimes he lets his anger cloud his judgment and sometimes he finds himself serving evil in his quest for revenge and honor. But deep down, at Scorpion's core he ultimately ends up serving the greater good as we saw in MK3, even at the cost of what he wants.
But questions about Scorpion remain besides will he ever get his revenge. How deep is his honor? We see that Scorpion finds his honor more important than his life, but what about his family? What would Scorpion go through and who would he be willing to serve for a chance to be reunited with his family?
That was Scorpion under option (a). Now this is Scorpion under option (b):
He tries to kill Sub-Zero in MK2, but fails, which pisses him off. He was either defeated or somehow never got his chance.
In MK3, Scorpion escapes the Netherealm and immediately goes after Sub-Zero, but again fails. Which I imagine, pissed him off even more. In spite of two encounters with this Sub-Zero, Scorpion still hasn't caught on that he's not the same Sub-Zero who killed him.
In MK4 Scorpion is recruited by Quan Chi and Shinnok. One must wonder why because Scorpion's been losing every battle he's gotten in since MK1. Here he finally succeeds and defeats Sub-Zero only to discover it's been the wrong guy this whole time. Which, pissed him off I imagine for more or less the same reasons I indicated earlier.
So Scorpion starts chasing around Quan Chi. He succeeds for a while until Quan Chi recruits Moloch and Drahmin. They give him some trouble, which again, pisses him off.
So we see that all Scorpion really cares about is revenge. He's carrying a torch for his dead family and he blindly charges into any battle to avenge them. He's also a stubborn bastard who never knows when to stay down.
This is why I despise the belief that Scorpion's MK2 ending never happened. While before we had an intriguing, conflicted character with understandable motivations, here we are left with a mindless drone who does nothing but fail. I can sympathize with Scorpion as a man who's honor sometimes comes into conflict with what he wants, but I can't sympathize with Scorpion as Wile E. Coyote.