MK6 Artificial Intelligience
3D Kombat Klassics
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MK6 Artificial Intelligience
1 thing everyone agrees to here, is that MK's AI has not been good in any games, adn when we think about, AI sucks the biggest in fighting games in general.
so i thought of a few ideas to improve upon AI, and break out of the barrier of single programmed AI per character.
First let me talk about some characters and their strengths/weaknesses.
Using a rating of 5 being the best and 1 being the worst
I'll use 7 parameters per character:
Jax
Not including bosses or sub-bosses, Jax is the most powerful character in the mk series.
i would give Jax the following ratings
Grappling - 5
Trappng - 3
Punching - 5
Kicking - 2
Speed - 2
Strength - 5
Endurance - 4
Simply put, any styles that focus on joint locks/throws and punching, would work in favour of Jax.
Li Mei
Grappling - 1
Trapping - 2
Punching - 2
Kicking - 4
Speed - 5
Strength - 2
Endurance - 3
Sub-Zero
Grappling - 3
Trapping - 3
Punching - 4
Kicking - 3
Speed - 4
Strength - 4
Endurance - 5
Ok before you guys think wtf, allow me to explain.
Lets use jax as the example above....his advantages are that he has power punches and grappling moves.
His AI should therefore focus on punches and grapples.
Li Mei - The fastest of characters, Her AI hould consist of kicking combinations
get me so far...now here's the tricky part:
The AI i talked about has 1 way of playing focusing on advantages, now we focus on disadvantages, such as li mei, using grapples, or punches, or jax using kicks.
we now have two different modes of AI but im not finished yet.
As i mentioned in another post about powerful characters lacking combos and being offensive, and weaker characters using skill and speed and combos and more defensive.
We can in turn conclude there are four modes:
now heres the really cool idea:
when playing the cpu, it randomly changes between the four, no restricted time, no pattern...hows that for improvement?
as diffulty levels get higher, characters will begin to stay in their best mode:
jax's best mode would be offensive advantage
li mei's would be defensive advantage
i'll post more on this later, give me your thoughts
so i thought of a few ideas to improve upon AI, and break out of the barrier of single programmed AI per character.
First let me talk about some characters and their strengths/weaknesses.
Using a rating of 5 being the best and 1 being the worst
I'll use 7 parameters per character:
- Grappling - how good characters can pull off throws/joint locks
- Trapping - how good characters use elbows knees & headbutts, close quarter attacks
- Punching - from simple punches to palm strikes and any variations in between involving the characters hands
- Kicking - from front kicks to spin kicks to sweeps and any other kicks
- Speed - Overall quickness of character
- Strength - Overall damage character can do to opponent
- Endurance - How strong a character is before he gets knocked out
Jax
Not including bosses or sub-bosses, Jax is the most powerful character in the mk series.
i would give Jax the following ratings
Grappling - 5
Trappng - 3
Punching - 5
Kicking - 2
Speed - 2
Strength - 5
Endurance - 4
Simply put, any styles that focus on joint locks/throws and punching, would work in favour of Jax.
Li Mei
Grappling - 1
Trapping - 2
Punching - 2
Kicking - 4
Speed - 5
Strength - 2
Endurance - 3
Sub-Zero
Grappling - 3
Trapping - 3
Punching - 4
Kicking - 3
Speed - 4
Strength - 4
Endurance - 5
Ok before you guys think wtf, allow me to explain.
Lets use jax as the example above....his advantages are that he has power punches and grappling moves.
His AI should therefore focus on punches and grapples.
Li Mei - The fastest of characters, Her AI hould consist of kicking combinations
get me so far...now here's the tricky part:
The AI i talked about has 1 way of playing focusing on advantages, now we focus on disadvantages, such as li mei, using grapples, or punches, or jax using kicks.
we now have two different modes of AI but im not finished yet.
As i mentioned in another post about powerful characters lacking combos and being offensive, and weaker characters using skill and speed and combos and more defensive.
We can in turn conclude there are four modes:
- Offensive Advantage
- Offensive Disadvantage
- Defensive advantage
- Defensive disadvantage
now heres the really cool idea:
when playing the cpu, it randomly changes between the four, no restricted time, no pattern...hows that for improvement?
as diffulty levels get higher, characters will begin to stay in their best mode:
jax's best mode would be offensive advantage
li mei's would be defensive advantage
i'll post more on this later, give me your thoughts
im back, but the AI doesnt end there....i'd like to add the following to the AI:
POST MORE LATER
- Projectile frenzy - what this means is the cpu goes pyscho and unleashes projectiles
- Combo Frenzy - this means the cpu goes crazy and unleashes constant streams of combos
- projectile to combo alternates - instead of the above, for scorpion & subzero they should fire out their respective projectiles and unleash a combo (scorpion harpoon then combo, subzero freeze then combo etc)
- advancing - the cpu advanaces towards you
- retreating - the cpu retreats from you
- sidestepping - the cpu sidesteps
POST MORE LATER
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I understand what you mean about the AI being kind of crappy; I usually play MKDA on Medium to be able to warm up, and even that ends up being not enough. I like your ideas man, and if I were you, I'd keep them coming. 
| Jerrod Wrote: I understand what you mean about the AI being kind of crappy; I usually play MKDA on Medium to be able to warm up, and even that ends up being not enough. I like your ideas man, and if I were you, I'd keep them coming. |
the ideas havent even started yet lol!
so far we have the following:
- Offensive Advantage
- Offensive Disadvantage
- Defensive advantage
- Defensive disadvantage
- Projectile frenzy - what this means is the cpu goes pyscho and unleashes projectiles
- Combo Frenzy - this means the cpu goes crazy and unleashes constant streams of combos
- projectile to combo alternates - instead of the above, for scorpion & subzero they should fire out their respective projectiles and unleash a combo (scorpion harpoon then combo, subzero freeze then combo etc)
- advancing - the cpu advanaces towards you
- retreating - the cpu retreats from you
- sidestepping - the cpu sidesteps
- sidestep defence - cpu sidesteps to avoid your attacks
- blocker - cpu blocks everything thrown at him
- counter - cpu counters everything thrown at them
- power blast - An interesting feature i thought would be cool and would replace the neijin. Every character should a character specific power attack. for Jax, a super slam or punch, for li mei a power kick, for subzero, the classic freeze/uppercut, for scorpion the classic harpoon/uppercut. The power blast itself would take 25% energy off, thats one quarter of your opponents life. it would also be hard for cpu players too pull off
Now to my point about AI -
each character should have about 5 or 6 pointers above for AI, that way each character would play differently.....to make it even better....
every time a match loads up, or better yet, a round.... 6 out of these 14 elements are randomly loaded up for the cpu. Every chracter must have one of the first four i mentioned.
Those are my ideas for improving AI and improving gameplay against the CPU...this way will have an enriching experience....your thoughts ladies and gents?
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Your ideas are good, but I am not sure how well they will fare against seasoned players.
Your ideas are mostly based on the rock, paper, scissors concept of fighting games ( If a human player chooses to play offensively, the computer will select a certain style which has predetermined moves to counter it ). These days that only goes so far.
If you want an idea of really good AI, you have to look beyond that formula and onto games like Virtua Fighter 4 Evo. AM2 had designed a system in V.3 where the computer will understand not only which character they are fighting against, but it will also keep track of the human component as well. For example, you had tried to throw repeatedley, the computer would reckognize your pattern, and start to perform throw escapes and punish you severly. Not only that, but it would also store any information regarding that particular fight and add the data to its base tactics.
When VF4 came out, AM2 went a step further in the AI programming so the computer even compiles and gives you percentages of each and every attack you perform, how well you perform it, and what you need to work on to increase your skill level, and then lets you look over the results in quest mode.
Eventually, this leads to superior AI opponents than any predetermined programming can hope to accomplish.
There is alot more to AM2's AI that would take forever to explain including using Japanese VF champions to record their fighting data for the computer to draw from and use it in the actual game, and letting users create and train their own AI into the actual game to fight against (probably one of the single greatest ideas in AI programming for fighting games btw) but you get the general idea.
-DN
Your ideas are mostly based on the rock, paper, scissors concept of fighting games ( If a human player chooses to play offensively, the computer will select a certain style which has predetermined moves to counter it ). These days that only goes so far.
If you want an idea of really good AI, you have to look beyond that formula and onto games like Virtua Fighter 4 Evo. AM2 had designed a system in V.3 where the computer will understand not only which character they are fighting against, but it will also keep track of the human component as well. For example, you had tried to throw repeatedley, the computer would reckognize your pattern, and start to perform throw escapes and punish you severly. Not only that, but it would also store any information regarding that particular fight and add the data to its base tactics.
When VF4 came out, AM2 went a step further in the AI programming so the computer even compiles and gives you percentages of each and every attack you perform, how well you perform it, and what you need to work on to increase your skill level, and then lets you look over the results in quest mode.
Eventually, this leads to superior AI opponents than any predetermined programming can hope to accomplish.
There is alot more to AM2's AI that would take forever to explain including using Japanese VF champions to record their fighting data for the computer to draw from and use it in the actual game, and letting users create and train their own AI into the actual game to fight against (probably one of the single greatest ideas in AI programming for fighting games btw) but you get the general idea.
-DN
| DigitalNinja Wrote: Your ideas are good, but I am not sure how well they will fare against seasoned players. Your ideas are mostly based on the rock, paper, scissors concept of fighting games ( If a human player chooses to play offensively, the computer will select a certain style which has predetermined moves to counter it ). These days that only goes so far. If you want an idea of really good AI, you have to look beyond that formula and onto games like Virtua Fighter 4 Evo. AM2 had designed a system in V.3 where the computer will understand not only which character they are fighting against, but it will also keep track of the human component as well. For example, you had tried to throw repeatedley, the computer would reckognize your pattern, and start to perform throw escapes and punish you severly. Not only that, but it would also store any information regarding that particular fight and add the data to its base tactics. When VF4 came out, AM2 went a step further in the AI programming so the computer even compiles and gives you percentages of each and every attack you perform, how well you perform it, and what you need to work on to increase your skill level, and then lets you look over the results in quest mode. Eventually, this leads to superior AI opponents than any predetermined programming can hope to accomplish. There is alot more to AM2's AI that would take forever to explain including using Japanese VF champions to record their fighting data for the computer to draw from and use it in the actual game, and letting user create and train their own AI into the actual game to fight against (probably one of the single greatest ideas in AI programming for fighting games btw) but you get the general idea. -DN |
I had a feeling someone would say say something along the line of rock paper scissors....my point is exactly the opposite DN.
See the above were examples of different parameters set for the AI that are randomly selected before any match or even, any round.
I know what you mean virtual fighter 4, there AI was excellent, but if mk team were to concentrate on AI similiar to VF4, we'd be techincally playing VF4.
I believe MK should have its own flavour.
Each parameter above are nothing but examples.
There could be 100 different parameters and 20 are selected randomly per character, im just generalising with my ideas...
You do however make a valid point about AI in VF4....its a tricky situation, one that would need a great deal of thought.
I would like options to be near enough unlimited, so that every round is challenging and so is the opponent. What we used effectively in 1 round wont work due to the simple fact, new random parameters have been loaded up for the cpu in the next round.
It might even be cool idea to implement VF4 style AI in MK, but that would basically, be MK copying...it could work, if only a little was implemented, but those are just my ideas....
Thanks for posting your ideas DN
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I see what your saying, but I still think the aspect of a learning AI would increase the challenge of any game, not just VF4.
That was probably my best example, but the idea of an AI that could learn from it's mistakes are now starting to be implemented in several types of games, not just the fighting genre.
I don't believe that if the MK team incorporated it into MK6 it would feel like playing VF4, because it's not the AI that forms the gameplay, but the move sets and how the computer uses those varied moves. Since the fighting style between the two games is so fundamentally different, I don't think there would be much similiarity.
However, I know AM2 took quite some time in creating the AI for the game, and I think the MK team has more pressing issues to focus on, so maybe your approach would be better suited for the next installment.
Your right, if there are enough seperate fighting parameters for the computer to choose before a match it may be sufficient. My only fear is once a player has mastered the game, they will know the chinks in every fighting parameter and be able to exploit it once they see it used.
It would be a nice addition tho if you could download even more parameters to use with the online component of MK6, I could definatley see some potential in that respect.
-DN
That was probably my best example, but the idea of an AI that could learn from it's mistakes are now starting to be implemented in several types of games, not just the fighting genre.
I don't believe that if the MK team incorporated it into MK6 it would feel like playing VF4, because it's not the AI that forms the gameplay, but the move sets and how the computer uses those varied moves. Since the fighting style between the two games is so fundamentally different, I don't think there would be much similiarity.
However, I know AM2 took quite some time in creating the AI for the game, and I think the MK team has more pressing issues to focus on, so maybe your approach would be better suited for the next installment.
Your right, if there are enough seperate fighting parameters for the computer to choose before a match it may be sufficient. My only fear is once a player has mastered the game, they will know the chinks in every fighting parameter and be able to exploit it once they see it used.
It would be a nice addition tho if you could download even more parameters to use with the online component of MK6, I could definatley see some potential in that respect.
-DN
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Well, I like both your ideas nindz and DigitalNinja. I can kinda understand where both of you are coming from with your views. I think the stats and stuff that nindz mentioned were pretty good, but I also like what DigitalNinja said about the learning AI thing. That could add a lot to the challenge.
| DigitalNinja Wrote: I see what your saying, but I still think the aspect of a learning AI would increase the challenge of any game, not just VF4. That was probably my best example, but the idea of an AI that could learn from it's mistakes are now starting to be implemented in several types of games, not just the fighting genre. I don't believe that if the MK team incorporated it into MK6 it would feel like playing VF4, because it's not the AI that forms the gameplay, but the move sets and how the computer uses those varied moves. Since the fighting style between the two games is so fundamentally different, I don't think there would be much similiarity. However, I know AM2 took quite some time in creating the AI for the game, and I think the MK team has more pressing issues to focus on, so maybe your approach would be better suited for the next installment. Your right, if there are enough seperate fighting parameters for the computer to choose before a match it may be sufficient. My only fear is once a player has mastered the game, they will know the chinks in every fighting parameter and be able to exploit it once they see it used. It would be a nice addition tho if you could download even more parameters to use with the online component of MK6, I could definatley see some potential in that respect. -DN |
Speaking of parameters, we wont personally know of them while playing the game, and being numerous, the casual gamer would probably find it hard to figure out to face him but......................
DN.....you have inspired me with another idea.....check this out...
What if.....what if both AI like the ones found in VF4 combined with the parameters i mentioned above were both implemented.
Im sure many will agree including you that CPU AI in MK games is the same for every character and diversity and differences are what's required in MK6, and to have longetivity in not only the multiplayer/online aspects, but also for the single gamer will add greater depth and challenge.
MKDA was brilliant no doubt, but after learning some basic combos, and then style branchers, we find ourselves playing MAX difficulties know what 'cheap' tactics to use in order to win all the time.
Another thing is the fact, not alot of people living in my area enjoy mk as much as i do. In fact one of my friends insists on playing 1player as he's too scared off getting his @ss kicked from...stupid i know...but with challenging AI, i may not even need friends to enjoy MK in-depth.
I just pray MK6 caters for that.
I'll try and add more parameters if i think of them
ive come with another parameter....
Check this out...
everytime we take our weapon out, our cpu opponent takes his/her weapon out...
to create balance...realistically anyone fighting someone else with a weapon would want a weapon of its own, therefore this parameter would also be neat
Check this out...
everytime we take our weapon out, our cpu opponent takes his/her weapon out...
to create balance...realistically anyone fighting someone else with a weapon would want a weapon of its own, therefore this parameter would also be neat
How about just having "in-depth meters" to adjust the offensive, defensive, and counter attacks of the computer. Just like the sports games, where you can adjust how often a team fumbles or how often they will throw an interception.
You could balance out the computers attacks so that it would have an all new level of difficulty and to match your abilities. You could even adjust their speed and strengths and even their weaknesses to projectiles.
You could balance out the computers attacks so that it would have an all new level of difficulty and to match your abilities. You could even adjust their speed and strengths and even their weaknesses to projectiles.
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