Is Ermac seriously that far down the list?

Yes.

I think Versatile would say otherwise about Sub-Zero.

Anyhoo, I was wondering about Shao Kahn and Goro. I heard they are low tier characters. Can someone who knows the ins and outs about them inform me about what makes them crappy?

goro has no safe moves at all, yey he can run and pressure with a decent 50/50 game, but is too slow to compete with, he has a high/low combo in his 2nd stance thats about as deep as he gets, basically the same as sub zero, his weapon stance is fast, but predictable, and punishable on everything, he has a ground pound like dairou, which is also predictable

kahn is slow, much worse than goro, also has a high low combo in second stance whihc leads to nothing, and gives other player priority afterwards, his strengths are his specials, which are all punishable, and wont do him any good, best specialbeing his rising knee, which pops up, his throw does 5%, but his one saving grace is a combo in second stance which is moderatly safe, but gets punished off quick block, and hits all high

both have an overhead like dairous b1 in escrima, but nothing to go along with it other than a throw = basic high level 50 50 for anyone, no good lows, and no lows that lead into free throws, where as they lack already in the free throw department... goro has an easy 100% in the corner, kahn has about 50 or 60% in corner

all in all, id take kahn over goro, but im sure goro is the better half/.. either way, both are fun to play as, and thats all that really matters

Hmm, interesting stuff. What about their other styles?

Also, what about Shao Kahn's shield move? What are the ins and outs of that and what makes that move punishable?

I find that Shao Kahn is absolutely terrible, without having any good launchers (other than his Rising Knee and maybe 2 in his Wrath Hammer, but it's not safe either), and not even any useful dial-combos; the only usable one is that four-kick-craptacular, but Check mentioned the flaw in that one. I always find myself dependent on his special attacks, which are his best feature, but even then, they're nothing really great; where's the power-house that was Shao Kahn in MK3-MKT? I wish that the Emperor Shield could at least reflect projectiles to give it an offensive and defensive use and maybe make him more useful. If you miss with the shield, prepare to be punished terribly. I like the range though, as it reaches a lot further than I expected.
I personally prefer Goro of the two because his combos are more useful, he has more pop-ups, and that Hand Spin attack seems to work well with me, although if it's blocked, you're terribly screwed. Is it just me, or do both of these guys have crappy low attacks?
The characters were immensly fun to play as initially, but as I started trying out the other characters like Noob-Smoke, Scorpion, and Liu Kang, I started realising that they weren't that spectacular. They can be fun, but anybody who's pissed about not having the GC version isn't missing much; that's what MKA's for.

Is there an updated version of the tier list? Because I heard some fighters are actually supposed to be higher up now (Sub-Zero, Hotaru, etc.)

Yeah, an updated version will be great

01. Dairou
02. Bo' Rai Cho
03. Noob-Smoke
04. Scorpion
05. Kobra
06. Darrius
07. Shujinko
08. Liu Kang
09. Mileena
10. Raiden
11. Hotaru
12. Kabal
13. Ashrah
14. Baraka
15. Jade
16. Tanya
17. Nightwolf
18. Sub-Zero
19. Ermac
20. Kenshi
21. Sindel
22. Li Mei
23. Havik
24. Kira


Eh, thats how i see it. from 10-15 its debatable thou. like i think Hota and rai is better than mileena but thats me.

Ko > Scorp

Throw: Ko x 1,000,009
Weapon: as good as f1 is, d3 can counter it... Ko
Otg: Scorp has 0... Ko has 500... Ko
Free throws: Scorp has 1... Ko has 500... Ko

Thats all that really counts in mkd, right?
He'd run into problems once scorp gets his unbreakables goin, but any character will have a shit time dealing with that. Plus Ko gets those extra 50/50s after plants...O_o

---

I agree that Ho > Mileena because b1 counters her lows. If either get stuck in the corner you're dead. Rai is close, but cant stop her lows as easily... She's just too random

peace

Thanks. And Goro & Shao Kahn?

Ahem, aren't you forgetting about Kobra's D + 1 in Shorin Ryu?

Also, yeah, like Shinomune said, what about Goro and Shao Kahn?

Btw, I thought Tanya was low tier.

You have a good point but, Scorp has alot more priority over kob while in Weap, F+1 is just too good and what he can do after it is even better. f+1, d+2, 2,2,1,hf(wall only) is pimp as hell and pwns as they are still 50/50able

f+1 spear,cs,cs,b+2,hf. scorp can do too much not to mention hf,cancel,hf.

Scorp dosnt need OTGs Hapkido is 100%safe. scorp has more then 1 free throw. hf throw, u+4 ss throw, 3 in moi- throw. b+1,ss throw, 3b+1,throw. ect.

F+1 > everything of kobs. i do agree its a very close match but the scorp player does have the advantage. f+1 + hf + hapkido + unbreakables > d+1 b+1 u+3 d+3 d+4 f+1.

---

as for goro and khan i'm not too sure. I beleive they are low tier? but i could be wrong i know they arnt higher then 12 thou. Tanya is low mid tier because of her second stance, weap, and otgs.

I personally think that Sub-Zero is one of the best characters in the game, but only if you know how to play as him. Ice Clone isn't the most useful ability, but it works well against Liu Kang's bicycle kick, and can also freeze the rapidly approaching foe. The Freeze blast is pretty much useless at long range but can come in handy in mid to close range. The Cold shoulder is most definately his best special. He also has some pretty decent combos in the Shotokan and Dragon styles why the Kori blade is a devastating juggler.

Goro is a broken character. His ground pound has unlimited range and is unblockable. I've beaten the game on max difficulty with Goro using just the ground pound and got two flawless victories against Onaga. The ground pound can be done in rapid succession against Onaga because it doesn't pop him up into the air. Also, the AI is pretty stupid against him because it always tries to block his tele-stomp, which is unblockable. On the other hand, his fighting styles a pretty useless, with few popups and barely any dial-a-combos.

Shao Khan is an ok character because his specials do a good bit of damage but again, not many dial-a-combos making his fighting styles pretty much useless.

Havik should be listed at mid-tier in my opinion. His dirt slide move can go under any and all projectile attacks, even Liu Kang's low fireball. His back spinny thing is also a good attack to use against the airborne foe.

I also like Raiden because whenever the opponent uses a projectile I just teleport and then through them.

No offence, but what the AI does and does not is of no importance when making a tier list.

Smoke's cloud > Sub-Zero's clone, by the way. Sub lacks unpunishable mids and has no useful plant moves. His throw is also sub-par, and he relies mainly on juggles, which can be broken. So, Sub-Zero is one of the weakest characters in the game.

I think when it comes to the opinion of Sub-Zero, there seem to be some mixed feelings about him, mostly negative. However, Versatile seems to think more highly of him compared to others.

Sub-Zero definitely needed 3 to be a mid in Shotokan and to have U + 4 in Dragon as a mid. That would've made him better, imo. I don't think Sub-Zero's Ice Clone is bad though. I mean, at least he kind of recovers faster than Smoke when Smoke does his Stinky Cloud.

If I'm not mistaken, Sub-Zero relies a lot on pokes.

Can someone answer these questions for me...

BO RAI CHO: Everyone keeps saying Bo' is like a God and he is so strong. Why is this? Why is Dairou ahead of him if he is so strong?

KOBRA: Why is Kobra so high?

DARRIUS: Why is Darrius so high?

KABAL: With what I consider bad fighting styles and unsafe special moves, why is Kabal 12th and not lower?

ASHRAH: Why is Ashrah 13th? I would have thought she would have been top ten, if not top five.

SINDEL: Why so low? I thought she would be around 15th, not 21st. Her second stance is good and she has a good mix of special moves.

LI MEI: This was surprising. I thought Li Mei would have a higher tiering than this. Why is it so low?

KIRA: Last... I know she is bad, but why last? I thought around 17 would suit her better.

Let's see if I can get this right...

Bo' Rai Cho: F + 3 in Jojutsu, his throw, and maybe even the Puke Puddle are all you really need. F + 3 is a 2-hit attack that hits mid and leads to a free throw which in turn can lead to some nasty shit. I think it can lead to infinites and OTGs or simply just high damage. I'm sure someone else can fill you in more on that.

Dairou: His specials and Autumn Dao style are what make him really good. His Tombstone Drop is really fast and his Iron Leg is pretty fast. The Stealthy Shadows move can be a tricky move. Autumn Dao is namely for moves like D + 1 and sometimes B + 2, but there's mainly the 1, 1, F + 3 combo, mainly for combining that with the Tombstone Drop.

Kabal: His fighting styles don't suck. Sun Bin has some decent shit in it with moves like U + 3 and D + 1. His 1, 3 combo, imo, is pretty good. U + 3 in Sun Bin can lead to high damage if you do the Spin move after that and switch to Goju Ryu and do 1, 1, CS, 1, 1, 4...1, 1, 4, CS or for people like me, just go to Hookswords and do 1, 1, 4...1, 1, 4, CS. Goju Ryu has good speed and attack 2 is a pretty good move. It's not that great of a style overall though. Hookswords is probably his best style with moves like U + 2, U + 3, 4, and stuff like that. His Spin move, while having risks, is his best special. The projectile is alright. The other move is pretty useless though I could be wrong on that.

Ashrah: She has several OTGs and several infinites that can come from those OTGs. She's fast overall. Chuojiao (Note: I know that it's spelled Chou Jaio in the game, but they got the spelling wrong.) is her best style with its moves and combos and such. Ba Gua is ok. Kriss is decent. Her Spin Cycle is great and one of her best moves. Also, Ashrah has a great throw, and one that's unbreakable if I'm not mistaken.

Sindel: Her throw sucks. Cha Chuan (spelled Zha Chuan in MKD) unfortunately sucks as there's crap mix ups and no good low pokes. Fu Jow Pai is pretty good with D + 1, D + 4, and B + 2 and it's kind of fast overall. Kwan Dao (incorrectly spelled Kwan Do) is pretty good. Her projectile is nice. Her Sliding Foot Grab is risky. Her Banshee Scream is good. Mainly, her throw is one of her biggest downfalls, and in a game like this, in which the throws are very important in the gameplay, she suffers big time.

Li Mei: I'm not entirely sure on this one. Her Kunlun Dao can be a bit of a bitch with 2 and B + 3 or even the 2, B + 3 combo. D + 1 is also a good move in it. Her two kicking specials are her better specials while her other two are not that great. Liu He Ba Fa (incorrectly spelled Lui He Ba Fa) doesn't really have any great low pokes. In fact, it's D + 1 poke sucks. Mi Zong has a decent D + 1 poke though, but it's not really a particularly great style. Her throw seems to be ok, I guess. I think someone else can give you a better idea as to why she's low on the list.

Kira: Her throw doesn't give her any real advantage over the opponent though it is a decent 16% damage anyway. Xing Yi sucks. Kenpo, while strong, is very unsafe and kind of rigid as well. Dragon Teeth is probably her best style, but that's not saying much. With her styles, the main weakness is her lack of good low pokes. Her specials aren't that great. The kiss move is ok, but it's one I don't really use. The Black Dragon Ball can be decent if you can use it well, but you're gonna get fucked if they block it. Nightshade is one of the worst (maybe even the worst) projectile in the game. It's slow. It looks like it would hit mid, but it actually hits high. It has no special effects whatsoever. The recovery time is ass.

Well, that's about it. If I made any mistakes, I'm sure the others will be able to clear things up. I just wanted to tell you what I know.

BO RAI CHO: Everyone keeps saying Bo' is like a God and he is so strong. Why is this? Why is Dairou ahead of him if he is so strong?

Bo is already better than most just because of his weapon stance, f+3 and his throw.His Puke Puddle is definitely as good as his f+3 because it allows him to turtle very easily and set up huge damage.However,ironically one of Bo's weaknesses is his f+3 in my opinion.It does hit twice which means it's not really a reliable 50/50 option since it can be broken with a breaker on reaction.

Dairou is simply a monster.In a game like this one where turtling is very dominating just like in most fighting games,Dairou can pretty much do whatever he wants to.When you play with Dairou,you NEVER have to chase people to do damage because you have 50/50 mix ups anywhere on the screen.This means that Dairou's opponent must rush him and get close to him.Fortunately for Dairou,his Escrima stance has d+1 and f+2 (two very safe moves) and also a mid pop-up (b+1),which can lead into decent damage or a free throw into mix ups.

Anyway,Dairou and Bo (and to some lesser extent N/S) really do have huge advantages when compared to the rest of the cast.Most characters can never beat them in a series,especially not Dairou.

DARRIUS: Why is Darrius so high?

Darrius is actually no where near as good,but online he can pretty much spam a safe mid pop up over and over again without getting into trouble against most of the characters.Besides that,Darrius has the easiest mix ups out of any character in MK:D - weapon stance 3 or throw, QCF+3 into weapon stance 3 or throw again.He's also got very easy infinite combos;it's pathetic.

Thank you Sub-Zero_7th and m2dave

Adding to m2dave and Sub-Zero_7th

Kabal is great.

Sun Bin is nice, but nothing special, second style 2 is a good mid pop up, is hookswords are baisicly all you need. U+2 is his best move, hits low, 16% super fast and a free throw in the corner if I'm not mistaken. 4 is a safe mid and a free throw, D+4 is low and really fast. His spin can punish about 95% of the moves in the game. From his spin, and every other juggle you can get huge easy damage. The spin can be bufferd from many moves. d,b+2 is good to throw here and there.
Kabal is a great character, his throw is what keeping him from being one of the best in the game.

Ashrah

Ashrah is very strong but just not as anyone else.

Her low attacks are not good, most of her mids if not all can be punished. You can turtle Ashrah easily.
Her throw is fantastic, she has easy inf......

Ashrah is good, but others are better.

Sindel

Sindel is nice. First style is crap, Fu Jow Pai is good, d+4, d+1 and b+2 which is a safe mid are good. Her weapon is ok, u+2 is a nice low but slow, 4 / 4,4 / 4,4,1 mix up are nice.
Her screan sux, it should have been a mid not high, her projectile is good, her low slide is so unsafe and very slow.
Her throw is without a doubt the worst in the game.
It does about 12%, breakable, the opp can auto recovery after it and sometimes punish Sindel before she recovers!
Sindel's throw and unsafe mid pop ups is really whats keeping her that low.


Li Mei


Her weapon is good, 2, d+1, b+3 and 2,b+3 are great.
Li Mei is just not broken like most other characters.
If this game was tested, she would have been higher.


Kira

Poor Kira.

Xing Yi sux, Kenpo is nice, b+3, f+3 and 2 are good, but overall Kenpo is very unsafe. Her weapon, theres just nothing in it, no reason to use it. Kanpo has all the things her weapon has and more.
The roll can be blocked and punished for huge damage, her projectile is nice. The kiss was toned down alot from DA and now it's kinda poor, good for keeping your opp away. it's good after pop ups.
Her throw is 16% and nothing more.
Kira is just not as broken as all other characters, her throw sux, she has no safe mids. All of this makes her by far the worst in the game.

hjs-Q: So that's why Li Mei isn't so high on the list despite the Kunlun Dao, eh?

Sindel's Banshee Scream does hit mid (unless somehow that changes online), but it's a crouch blockable mid like Tanya's Drill Kick.

Kira's projectile is nice?? Uh...I can't agree with that. It has kind of a slow start up and it hits high when it should be hitting mid.

Li Mei has some good stuff but others are just far more broken than her,
that plus her ok throw makes her low on the list

Nope m8, I think you got that wrong, the screem hits high, the drill kick hits mid. You can test ut if you want.

I said Kira's projectile was nice cause most other projectiles are worse than Kira's.

I had already tested out the Banshee Scream and the Drill Kick. Unless the properties of those moves somehow change online then what I said stays true. I did say that the Drill Kick hits mid. It's just that it's a mid attack that you can stand block and crouch block, kind of like some of those mids in the Tekken games like the crouching punches.

You're punkin' me on Kira's projectile, right? I mean, to me, her projectile is one of the worst in the game as it hits high instead of mid even though it looks like it should be hitting mid. Also, the startup of the move sucks and the move itself doesn't do anything special.

I'll test the scream again, I'm 99% sure it's high