*pops some popcorn*

*sits down*

*enjoys the thread*

*eats the popcorn*

best post ever.

thank you. And Religion is an interesting topic that we can talk until we are blue in the face and never ever argee. Same with Politics.

I love talking about this stuff, and I don't even know if some of these people are still around.

@TemporaryUserName

Who said there was a transcendent agent? That's a stretch. I recommend you watch or read some of Lawrence Krauss's work on "Universe from Nothing", there are a lot of great videos on youtube about this topic from highly respected scientists from their respective fields (mostly physics, of course).

On top of that, there is a 45 minutes short lecture by Richard Dawkins labelled " The Purpose of Nothing" which perfectly describes why it is a silly question to ask "Why are we here". Just like it is a silly question to ask "Why is the sky blue". We can find out HOW the sky turned blue, but the sky didn't have some sort of purpose that it is being fulfilled by being blue. A certain set of events or natural laws is what dictates the color of the sky, not the will and purpose of the sky.

I agree with one of the earlier posters, your posts are eloquent and enjoyable to read.

However I didn't see this issue confronted: Using the reasoning you have, you argued that a transcendent being is the most logical reason for the beginning of our universe. How can this be so? Where did this transcendent being come from? More flaws appear in that logic when you consider how much a creator makes this problem more complicated. If the universe must have had a creator, then so did the creator, and that creator's creator, and so on. THAT, is illogical, and refers back to your "set of infinite's" that would be so impossible. Again, I refer you to Lawrence Krauss' work, he makes a lot of sense out of this whole "Universe from Nothing".

@ I bumped this thread 4 years after the latest post.

Reading through, I noticed there are new nuances and advancements in science that might help this conversation along. I think I did a good job of not bashing anyone and being respectful, hopefully we can keep it this way?!

EDIT: Here is a short "Big Think" Video with Krauss which explains the complexity of nothingness and why something can come out of nothing clicky

There are too many repeated complex structures for the univers to have, just happened, and have a haphazard makeup.
I`m surprised there aren`t more mutant blobs, and conglomerate freaks that look like a drunk child cobbled them together to suffer horribly.

If the Universe, just kinda happened, for no reason, then nothing means anything. Laws are pointless, and stupid, morality is an irrelevant burden. I should just go out and kill everybody now, thank you for freeing me from the Matrix. I`m a go hold your Mom`s head under water, while I fuck er up the ass.
What does it matter? Nothing means anything, trying to argue for love, compassion, and religion as evolutionary counters for the obviously natural suffering, logically, is pointless, because logic is pointless. What does it matter, nothing means anything?! Life is meaningless, doesn`t matter if you die, or get maimed, and suffer horribly, IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER, FUCK YOU BITCHES I`M A STOMP YOU BUGS!!!11!

Why am I yelling? It doesn`t matter, fuck off! What do you care if I kill off these freaks? Laws are pointless, suffering, hate, doesn`t matter. Send dem pigs afta me, I`m a gat yeuh. What does it fucking matter?!

Chaos is an integral part of the Universe, but not the controlling factor.
Even Chaos follows rules, and order. Not all chaos is inherinly Evil, either.
Good chaos, like a nature scene of animals in their natural habitat, acting to their random way, playing, getting eaten, migrating.
Bad chaos, like anarchists, violent rioters, and malicious groups. They don`t care, they just do whatever for shits, and giggles.
The animals are naturally random. Humans misuse their wondrous Minds, and CHOOSE TO BE ANIMALS!

Your arguements against Jehovah are attempts to steal hope from the hands of your victims.
This is not a matter of Order vs Chaos. It is a matter of Life or Death.
Choose Life, choose Hope, Compassion, Understanding. Know that you still have time to change your ways.
Reject Death, Hate, Deception, Greed. Use the Mind God gave you to Reason, and see through their lies.

Don`t panic.



Ka-Tra

Thanks for the bump.

It is really funny reading my previous convictions and how they fell apart in due time.

The only correct answer is that you do not know. And being intelectually honest is more important than being afraid of burning in hell.

Nobody burns in Hell.

Nobody goes to Heaven, until AFTER Judgement day. Except for a few ancient humans, and 144,000 being collected over time.

When you die, you are dead, off, nonexisting.
It says MANY times in the Bible that death is like a dreamless sleep.
You are in the ground. Also, your Soul is your breath, the air in your lungs.

All these near death experiences are hallucinations from several factors:
- Oxygen deprivation
- Brain electrical activity going haywire
- Dying brain naturally makes LSD

Haunted buildings are either full of black mold, and other toxins, causing people to hallucinate. Like how Salem Witch trials were caused by Ergot fungus which makes LSD.

Or areas that amplify or conduct infrasound, which can alter your body in various ways.

Also, Jeebus is a place, not a man.
It is where the Jebusites (Jeb you sight) are from.



Ka-Tra

Citation please

EDIT: okay, I'll give you a little more to bite. The only think you said that isn't based on a 2000 year old book is right at the top of this post. And all that does, is show your lack of understanding.
Unlike you, and similar to Chrome, I understand that the only intellectually honest thing to do is say We Don't Know. That said, we don't know if unicorns exist, or if the flying spaghetti monster exists. I'm a pastafarian, look it up and all hail the great spaghetti monster.
Now what does matter is how you are going to live your life. And how you are going to live your life is often changed if you worship a 2000 year old book.
I am comfortable saying god doesn't exist, because I have yet to see even one piece of evidence that he does exist.
You basically said "well a transcendent being didn't make us so our whole life is useless". "We were made without a purpose and therefore we serve no purpose." That sounds like some psychopathic thinking to me. basically : "If I'm not doing it for god then why do anything at all?"
I don't think I am superior to you, but I do think Atheistic Morality is superior to Religious Morality. Religious Morality requires you to read a book and do what it says. Atheistic Morality requires you to assess a situation, think about what is right or wrong, assess who is involved in the situation, who benefits and who doesn't and depending on what.
In short: I think about what is right and wrong, you take a books word for it. I would rather live in a world where we all think about morality. Religious Morality has been behind some nasty stuff in the past. Name me one major case where a guy went out and killed someone in the name of their lack of belief in god....? No? Well there are many examples of people killing other people in the name of their god....
EX number 1
EX number 2
That is 2 of many.
Well a plane was made with the purpose of flying, what is your purpose? To serve god? As an atheist, I carve my own purpose out of life. Are you going to tell me that a tree and all animals are here with a "purpose" as well? Or are you going to tell me that I am flawed and therefore my purpose will be flawed or something like that? Well guess what, a human wrote that book you're praising and they are flawed too my friend. Let alone that book was written a long, long time ago.
YOU ARE A FUCKING ANIMAL EVERY HUMAN BEING IS. IT IS BEYOND STUPID TO THINK THAT HUMANS ARE NOT ANIMALS.
P.S. You don't have to preach. But I wonder. Is it possible to change your mind? If so what would change your mind? Because I only need one simple little thing and that is EVIDENCE, I will gladly change my mind given you provide some actual evidence. I don't even care at this point, you can show me evidence god exists, or evidence religion is more realistic than atheism. Any kind of evidence whatsoever to support your beliefs would be great instead of the nonsense your spewing out now
P.P.S. I really did want to have a civil conversation, why did you have to preach, be obnoxious, and threaten my mother?

Even if Humans didn't "discover" the laws of physics, they would still govern their respective aspects of reality.

God wont force his love on you, that would be rape. You are encouraged to seek the truth for youself, your empty selfishness is toxic.

Doing what's right should be a no brainer. The WORD says to Love your fellow man. You ask "why should I?" Your ignorant attitude is why we need the Word.

The Roman pedophile cult usurped a "christian" facade around Constantine's rule. It came to be known as Catholosism. You know what a catheter goes on, and what "priests" like about little boys... cathlick...

The pagan holidays were also given bs christian connections.



Ka-Tra

Obviously if we didn't discover the laws of physics they would still govern reality.

God doesn't exist, so of course he won't force his love on me. What makes you say I am selfish? Because I do not love your god? You are selfish and preaching and trusting in an old book and your parents is toxic. Shorter, your lack of critical thinking is toxic.

Doing what's right is not and shouldn't always be a no-brainer. If it was, you wouldn't have to think about decisions you make. Is it okay to take a life? No? What if that life has put you and your whole family's life in danger? Then is it okay to take his life? Debatable. But you are saying that the answer is in a 2000 year old book.

I don't ask why I should "love my fellow man". I have more than enough reasons to be nice and respect the people in my society. But no, I don't just take a book's word for it. And no, I don't love everyone the same, I love my family, I don't love you. I have a certain respect for you as a living human being.

Me being ignorant is why we need one 2000 year old book. I think that demonstrates your ignorance.

I don't care about the specifics of a different religion other than yours and how ridiculous it is. They are all ridiculous. The main difference between me and you, is your 99.99% with me because you think all of the other religions around the world are false. I just took it that last 0.01% further.
EDIT: worth mentioning that there is a difference in total trust and believable trust. If my friend comes up and says "I ate a sandwich today", I believe him. But if that same person comes up and says "A volcano erupted on top of my house" I would say "I don't believe you show me some evidence" then upon seeing enough convincing evidence I would change my mind. It seems something that comes as common sense to me, but not so much for a lot of people

Do a simple Google search for "scientific statements in the Bible", coupled with new evdence dug up all the time.

Also, the Bible is far older than 2000 years. Jesus was here JUST under 2000 years ago, and the Word was ancient even then. The ancient Dead Sea scrolls match up with later copies, and translations of the Bible.



Ka-Tra

How about people just believe in or don't believe in whatever they want, and keep that shit to themselves lol

Scientific statements in the bible. Lol. What about all the stuff in the bible that contradicts scientific discoveries? For example, someone coming back from the dead? If you make a bunch of guesses, some are bound to be correct. Even if some of the statements in the bible hold true, that is not proof that all of them do...

The bible talks about Jesus, how could it be older? Wait wait wait, It doesn't matter. It is still just an old book, and you are cherry picking what you take from that book. If not, I can guarantee you I can find at least one thing that science disproves which it claims in the bible.

You keep making claims with no evidence to back it up, other than this so called "Word".

@Blade4693

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but I think it becomes a serious issue when you consider that people will raise there kids teaching them this.

I believe it is tantamount to child abuse to raise a child teaching them that creationism is true. Teaching a child the bible, and telling them it is the word of the creator of everything and the ultimate truth and where they should get their morals from. That is abusing the child's psychology. Feel free to teach them about your religion, but also teach them that there are many other religions out there, and allow them to learn about other religions. Children should be taught to question everything.

Although Tetra has said that hell doesn't exist (because somehow Tetra knows but won't show us evidence of all of these claims) many religious people do believe in hell, and tell their children that if they misbehave they will burn in hell for eternity. Now that, is a concern for me, because without a doubt that is damaging to the child's psychology.
EDIT: also, here in Canada the government funds Catholic schools. I don't think that is okay considering our charter of rights and freedoms (your constitution) was explicitly written so that we have freedom of religion. That includes freedom from religion, and when the wealthiest school in town is a catholic school because they get the most money from the government, I have a right to be upset about religion encroaching where I don't think it belongs. Sure, teach some of it in schools, but teach it as the mythology it is. Not in a science class, but in an English or Mythologies course, sure.

This thread was dug up from 2011.

Why?

If God loves you, why would he torture you for eternity or reward Satan with a Kingdom for defying him?

Satan & his minions being cast into ``Hell`` is like an artisan: a glass or metal worker returning slag to the furnace.

The ``Hell`` we experience every day is like the kiln firing pottery to strengthen it.

The Christian idea of Hell is based on the Greek memory of Hades. When the Sons of God mated with the Daughters of Man, and became the ancient ``gods``. Heracles may`ve been a real man. Jehovah sent the flood to eradicate the violence, and suffering they caused. Whatever fallen Angel was Hades, may`ve actually tortured folks in volcanic caves. Only Jehovah is God of EVERYTHING, the Heavens, and the Earth. All his children realize it is Blasphemy to claim his title or powers, so they took various individual aspects to be revered by Humans.



Ka-Tra

Those are all empty claims with absolutely no evidence behind it (except maybe the part about where christian hell came from, but that is not relevant).

Obviously, you are free to believe whatever you want, but do not expect other people (who were not raised into the religion) to take your word for this.

I'm open minded. Show me any evidence a god exists, and I will happily change my mind.

But if a god does exist he is either impotent or evil. What about all of those people that are praying to god and suffering anyways?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM

My point gets across in the first minute of this 10 minute video.

What about all of those people who are going to hell for worshiping the wrong god.

@boomboom

I like to talk about religion, and there were some intelligent posts in this thread so I decided to bring it up instead of making my own.

It has been suggested before to use the search bar instead of just making your own topic, so that is what I did.

Small question: am I the only Christian on here? Not saying it to be sarcastic or whatever, just curiosity. That's it. Don't read too far into it. I just want to know if anyone else shares the same faith I do.

It has nothing to do with isolating Atheists

It has nothing to do with only speaking to other Christians

It's just a question.

Define ``Christian``.

Islam, and Christianity are offshoots of the Hebrew faith.
Christians, and Muslims` faiths being referred to as the Abrahamic Religions is due to their agreement that Jehovah agreed to give Jerusalem to the descendants of Abraham, the Jews, Israel.

``Christianity`` means you follow Christ, Jesus, who was a Jew, to varying corrupted degrees.

Remember,`the real name of Satan(The Shitan means Adversary) is Lucifer, his name was(is) synonymous with light. He knows the word better than any Priest, and uses weasel words to corrupt the word. The Light`s Glare hides just as much as the Shadows. Watch out for ill lumination...

Illumination comes from other things,
Enlightenment comes from within ones own realization.



Ka-Tra

I see what you did there...

Don't worry thatoneguy, I would not have jumped on you for a comment like that!

I think it is quite obvious that there are some upsides as a consequence of religion (not to say there aren't more downsides, if that is what I thought I wouldn't be an atheist :P) and the most common upside is, for lack of a better term, the "sense of brothership" that people feel due to going to church a day of the week and interacting with people, or simply connecting with them on personal level based on their belief.

It's not all bad, I understand that, and I would never condemn or prejudge a person based on their religious background.

Lucifer comes from the Latin translation of "heilel" in Isaiah 14:12 which has nothing to do with HaSatan, one of the servants of Yahweh. It's talking about Nebuchadnezzar, the then King of Babylon.

Holy fucking shit no they do not. Where are you getting your information?

Dead Sea scrolls comparison

Bible Q&A

About Satan, Lucifer Question
My mistake, apparently it refers to the dynasty of Babylon.

All about Satan
Why doesn`t God destroy Satan outright?

Surprised nobody questioned why we`re learning about God from a retarded pothead who claims to be a demon...

A Demon who acts Humane,
because the Humans act like Demons.

These are indeed interesting times...



Ka-Tra

The bible holds scientific data comparable to that what bronze age shepards and wise men could gather... as in, it is nt up to date. It is the collection of observations and philosophical pondering that those people did.



It was once thought that air was weightless. Yet 4,000 years ago Job declared that God established “a weight for the wind.” In recent years, meteorologists have calculated that the average thunderstorm holds thousands of tons of rain. To carry this load, air must have mass."

Two things: science in the BIble or any other holy text is cherry picking, second, there is confirmation bias.

The force exerted by the wind is a separate from air pressure caused by the weight of air. The weight of air does not depend on if it is moving (as with wind) or not. If it mentioned lower air pressure at high altitude, it might be more credible.

Both young earth and old earth creationists claim the Bible supports their position but both views cannot be true. The Bible can selectively be interpreted to support many alternative views and has very few specifics. An entire section dedicated to a single theory would be a solid foundation. A fleeing reference which requires selective interpretation is unreliable. Science has many unanswered questions. If there is additional knowledge in sacred texts, it is difficult to use sacred texts to form hypothesis for testing because of their vague wording. If they cannot provide testable hypotheses before discovery by other means, they are technically proto-scientific (at best) and not scientific.

that's very, very debatable. A minor mistranslated phrase can cause a ton of damage. It doesn't change the core message? No shit, it would be pretty difficult to change the theme of "worship God" in the Old Testament

Also, the dead sea scrolls don't vindicate the New Testament and its nightmarish translation history.

Translation history?

How about picking what goes in and what goes out... First Council of Nicaea for starters (even though it wasn't about the canon) anyone?


The Bible as a whole is man made.