Honest discussion about MK's history (roster)
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posted02/03/2019 06:44 PM (UTC)by
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barakall
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01/13/2015 11:18 PM (UTC)

With the discussion about the roster heating up since the 17th January reveal, I thought it'd be nice to go back in time, be open and honest about what has happened in MK's history. Mainly in terms of characters and the roster. Hopefully we can agree on most of this and understand what NRS is doing for this game is nothing new and people shouldn't be too upset about some characters missing out or never returning.

So to get straight to the point, since the first follow-up game in MK2 there have been plenty of newly introduced characters that were bland and nothing special. It's not just the 3D era but every single game had their fair share of poorly executed characters. I mean, different coloured ninjas, palette swap girls, robots with nothing distinguishable about them etc. Somehow, for the sake of introducing new characters, Midway made almost exact copies of characters w/ minor changes who had (almost) nothing unique about them and seemed to serve as replacements quite often. Let's look at every follow up title to MK1 who I think we can all agree on were as described above:

  • Noob, Smoke, Jade & Kintaro in MK2 - Noob played like Scorpion and was the first joke character, same for Smoke though faster and Jade like Kitana. Kintaro was just a Goro replacement, though with a somewhat unique look.
  • Cyber Smoke in MK3 - The robots seem to be meant to replace the ninjas as Scorpion and Reptile were not in and Sub-Zero was human looking. Still, while Cyrax and Sektor were definitely unique, Smoke was again a Scorpion copy with his moves.
  • Rain and Ermac in UMK3 - Rain just had a lightning move from Raiden and one unique move in the water ball move, Ermac the teleport punch from Scorpion and maybe a unique move in a telekinetic slam though some character might have had this before.
  • Meat, Jarek, Tanya, Shinnok and Reiko in MK4 - Meat was a joke, Jarek is Kano, eye laser fatality and heart rip, canonball move and his look. Tanya has a boomerang that works just like Kitana's steel fans and she seems to be another palette swap as Kitana was meant to be in the game. Reiko's face looks almost exactly like Shang Tsung in MK3, he's the exact same as the other ninjas in MK4 though maroon coloured and wants to be Shao Kahn with one unique move. Shinnok just one move and for the rest morphing abilities. Clearly a copy of Shang Tsung.
  • Hsu Hao, Blaze & Mokap + Frost, Li Mei & Mavado in MKDA - The first three were complete jokes. Frost was a female Sub-Zero. Li Mei with a very bland pink / purple look and same weapon as Mileena. Mavado was a Kabal replacement.
  • I don't know if they really tried with some of the Deception characters, they were definitely unique, but the Darrius & Dairou + Kira & Kobra duos (names starting with same letters) were particularly bland and actually copied moves and were plays on Jax, Johnny Cage and Sonya. Havik might have started as a joke too, but looked great and had unique abilities. Hotaru not sure about. Shujinko was a Shang Tsung type without morphing abilities and could do a lot of characters' moves.
  • Both kameleons, Taven and Deagon in Armageddon - were these even serious?
  • Cyber Sub-Zero in MK9 - no explanation necessary.
  • Jacqui & Cassie in MKX - seemed to be made to replace Jax, Sonya and Johnny Cage. Ended up as characters with a mix of their moves and gimmicks (guns).

You can of course argue about these and others left out, but the point is: Midway / NRS has always introduced new characters that were nothing special, at first. And that's the key here. Look how they have developed a character like Ermac, Rain, Jade, Smoke and recently Shinnok. While it's great they've stuck to those Trilogy characters and finally got them right after some games, I don't think anyone can honestly say a palette swap 'deserved' to be in a next game.

While this may seem like an argument for any character to make a return we have to look at the history and context. Even with the likes of Ermac or even a joke character like Noob becoming interesting, there are only a few characters who started off as bland who have gotten a chance to develop and become unique. Why? MK was made in 1992, technology was very limited back then. The first roster had 2 ninja's with unique abilities, a lightning god, 4 humans who were unique in their own right, a sorcerer and a 4-armed dragon.

This was right after the peak of Street fighter 2, the version in which the 4 bosses were playable. Mortal Kombat became just as, if not even more popular so fast that MK2 was released only a year later. The succes of MK2 was unprecedented - in video game history - and just won a ton of awards and broke revenue records left and right. Don't forget, it was mainly an arcade game and that on its own was widely successful. It was only a year later (september 1994) they released the console versions, which was the best selling video game of the year and even topped movie successes in terms of revenue.

It took only 7 months for the console release of MK3. It did well, but was not as successful as MK2 and got criticised for leaving out Scorpion in particular. Midway quickly made up for it with the upgraded arcade version UMK3 which did include him among others (Kitana, Reptile, ninja Sub-Zero) and added Ermac and Rain. The next year (1996) Trilogy got released on the newly introduced consoles and as we know included every single character that appeared in the past. The game got mixed results and was not as popular as people might think. Since MK2, the results have been up and down.

MK Mythologies was released in 1997 and shortly after followed up MK4. Mythologies was heavily criticised and MK4 did better, but to call it successful would be a lie. Tobias left partially because the last few games didn't do that well. MK4 was the last arcade game for Mortal Kombat. By the end of a 5 year span since its first release Midway had done 7 games of which two collection games (UMK3 and Trilogy) and one adventure game. Tobias leaving, but also Deadly Alliance only releasing 5 years after MK4 definitely didn't help MK's future.

Deadly Alliance was definitely a successful game, but not as good as it's 2D predecessors. However, Deception did better and was even the fastest selling game in Midway's history. Armageddon (2006) followed this one - all 2 years between them - and did pretty well, but it was on a decline. Deception sold 1 million copies in the 1st week while it took Armageddon 4 months. MK vs. DC universe was the last fighting title and also did quite well with Shaolin Monks right before Deception as the sole adventure game that did okay too.

Midway's bankruptcy was an ownership issue and while Mortal Kombat did not have it's 90s success, the 3D era was far from a dark page in its history as some fans proclaim. If it was, I'd like to see the evidence. Sure, the games were sloppy at times, received mixed reviews but overall did quite well. So what does this have to do with the roster you say?

Obviously, with the game going back to its 2D roots with MK9 (2011) and was back to its award winning ways, a reboot almost everyone embraced and it sold 2 million copies in the 1st month. MK9 story wise also retold everything from the trilogy era and thus created a new timeline for MK to build on. MKX was it's successor and while it did include some of MK4's story, it was a completely new one with still a large trilogy cast that everyone knows and recognises MK for.

Boon and company have tried with every game to add new characters and have characters sit out, that's the way it works. They have even for the sake of introducing a new character, just sloppily put together a new one with the the moves of a character left out. They have been criticised even in the early days for leaving out original characters and have always gone back to the most recognisable characters.

It is not about the characters per se, if they had come up with the likes of Ashrah, Li Mei, Fujin, Reiko, Kai, Havik, Hotaru and them in the early days, chances are they would've been the ones we would've seen over and over. Fans would've then clamored for other characters that were not in the game for a while. So the discussion about whether Johnny Cage deserves it over Reiko, or Ashrah deserves it over Jade is useless. It's simply a matter of what did they start off with, where lies the games success (clearly in the trilogy era / 2d) and what has felt like a lack of success in the 3d era after Tobias left.

We should all agree that to even think there's an agenda of Boon against Tobias' creations in MK4 or something along those lines as MK4 has actually received some love in MKX. Now, while they have their own favorites like Kenshi and Quan Chi from the 3D era, we should also objectively see that with each new game, there were more copies of characters introduced and just not very creative ones. While a palette swap ninja is arguable as boring, it came during the franchise's heyday and it's not Boon's fault that most fans and they keep on going back to the originals. To ask them to leave all of them out is silly.

You can definitely make arguments of more potential or interesting characters introduced then as opposed to some from the 2D era, but given its history is pointless. We simply have to accept that with the 3D era's lack of succes compared to the 2D era, the success of its reboot with MK9 and a new timeline that NRS will explore a new story and they will likely not go back to the 3D era in terms of story and roster. Some can make it as DLC and we should be grateful they do listen to the fans. And it's not like the whole world is screaming for Havik or Tanya while being disappointed with Kano and Sonya. Most fans love that.

And that's my final point, in the end this game is about success and Warner Bros is a big company that is about the dollars. To think that they don't have a say over what NRS does would be naive and they certainly understand the need for those original characters to bring in serious revenue. While it does bother me that Capcom for example does bring back characters from any of their previous titles and support the games longer than just 1 or 2 small DLC packs, I understand better now that I've looked into MK's history.

We as fans are also really keen on NRS taking risks and leaving out plenty of originals in MKX with so many new ones was definitely a risk, even if most feel with the new generation it was somehow a safe follow-up, but it's all about perspective. The originals are here to stay and the new generation was never meant to take over. Feel free to add, disagree or just provide your perspective. Cheers!

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steffuz
02/03/2019 10:08 PM (UTC)
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wait they left out plenty of originals in mkx ? cus they left out baraka and rain ?

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barakall
02/03/2019 10:37 PM (UTC)
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steffuz

wait they left out plenty of originals in mkx ? cus they left out baraka and rain ?

Read and understand, don’t have to get all up in arms.

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ErmaSco
02/03/2019 10:37 PM (UTC)
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Reiko has Johnny Cage's face and no purpose or personality and was the heart of the whole Shao Kahn wannabe joke.

Fujin was a reject Raiden's replacement who had Kung Lao's flying kick and a very lame weapon. He never managed no replace Raiden and will never do.. EVER.

Noon had his one unique special moves in UMK3 and his story was so interesting and so did smoke. Nobody had telekinesis before Ermac and he had an interesting rumor story in MK1.

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Baraka407
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02/03/2019 11:11 PM (UTC)
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First off, GREAT post, man! Read it from top to bottom and really appreciated the analysis of each game’s characters in particular.

I think what’s strange about the 3D era is that it’s regarded as this dark time in MKs history, but Deadly Alliance and Deception reviewed almost as well as MK1 and MK2 (we’re talking a .1 or .2 difference on metacritic) and MK3 and MK4 reviewers similarly as well.

Then you look at the characters from each game in the context of when they were released and you can see memory constraints in the 2D games and time constraints in the 3D era, and I’m sure there were other factors as well, such as budget, technological limitations, etc.

The real differences, to me, and the real factors that separate the 2D era and 3D era characters are nostalgia and evolution. Noob for example, began largely as a joke, grew in to a character with his own moves in Trilogy, gained some story background in the form of a unique twist, gained a more of a unique look in MKD, and then took a substantial leap forward in MK9 when his look, moveset and story evolved considerably.

We’ve actually seen that evolution in Quan Chi, a 3D era character as well, starting out as a kinda silly looking villain in Mythologies, one of the worst games in the MK-verse. But he was in MK4, he evolved further in MKDA, and then much further in MK9 and MKX into one of the biggest story villains.

So for me, this IS an argument for 3D characters. We can’t change history, of course. Johnny Cage is considered a classic and he’s been in a ton of games and Reiko isn’t classic and wasn’t in a ton of games. Ask any fighting game fan if they’ve heard of these two and Cage will be remembered far more than Reiko.

But here’s the thing. I think you CAN have a roster that largely caters toward fans familiar with the Trilogy cast while appeasing the 3D era fans that do in fact exist, even if their numbers are smaller. If you have a 26 character roster, you could have three 3D era characters, three MKX characters and three new characters while leaving SEVENTEEN spots for Trilogy characters.

I don’t see why every group can’t get some of what they want. If they can shoehorn Quan Chi (and Kenshi) in to a retelling of MK1-3, why not find ways to bring in other characters from that era that have fans and could still fit in to this time bending story?

Maybe I’m just naive, but I really think that if some 3D era characters had the chance to evolve the way that characters like Noob or even Quan Chi has over the course of several games, they could certainly be regarded as highly by all fans as many Trilogy characters. I think Tanya and Bo Rai Cho have shown that they can still evolve characters, so why not continue that with a few more characters? Maybe three on the main roster and two or three more as DLC.

Fujin, Sareena, Havik, Frost, Li Mei and Reiko seem to be the most requested by 3D era fans. Four of them were already cameos in MKX so it’s not like they’d be completely unfamiliar to newer fans. You get a nice balance, everyone’s appeased, and Trilogy characters that don’t make the cut can be cameos that become DLC or they’re skipped entirely so fans can look forward to them in MK12 the way many of us look forward to Jade, Smoke, Noob and Shang Tsung for MK11.

Another added benefit to me is that you still keep the roster fresh. MK9 had a reason for being Trilogy only, but even with this new story, I really don’t think it’s a great idea to keep going back to that well. People love nostalgia until they don’t anymore, and if you’re releasing a game where 80+% of the roster is exactly the same from the good ol days every four to six years, the novelty will wear out if you’re only offering them the halcyon past, and people are going to get tired of it, regardless of how new the story, modes and gameplay are. At least that’s my fear.

I don’t want them to Street Fighter 3 the roster either because you absolutely need more than two or three familiar faces. But again, a healthy balance would, to me, help keep things fresh, unpredictable, and cater to as many parts of the fandom as possible. I’d rather see that than see another way to retell the same story with the same characters. I feel like many are waiting to see the story move forward. Hopefully this is it? Combine the timelines, make everyone young again, keep the good stuff, ditch the bad stuff, and then set things in motion.

Thats just me though. What do you think?

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Baraka407
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02/04/2019 12:09 AM (UTC)
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Just one other point I’d like to make...

I think a lot of fans have a tendency to focus too much on what a character is right now and weigh them all equally.

If you do that, then sure, you’d be kinda crazy not to think that Reptile is vastly more interesting, fun and all around superior to Kira (for example).

Thing is, Reptile began as Kira; an amalgamation of two character’s movesets, and he didn’t even have a unique look. However, he’s had 6 games to grow and evolve (and devolve lolz) in to what he is now. Why is it that we can’t imagine Kira being better after two games when characters like Reptile, Ermac, Noob, etc have had so many chances to evolve, improve, etc in so many areas and we’ve actually seen that progress?

We’ve also seen Tanya, Bo Rai Cho, Tremor and now Skarlet evolve significantly in only two or three games. Why is it hard for some to look at characters like Fujin, Sareena, Mavado, Frost, Drahmin, Nitara, Kai, Reiko, Havik, Hotaru, etc and see something vastly improved over what they saw before?

I get that it’s easier to see what’s in front of your face and to know what you’ve known in terms of character quality and evolution, but if you even see a shred of potential in a wind god, a vampire, a demonic spy, a character of pure chaos etc, then why not ask for that and give yourself the chance to miss a character you’ve seen several times already?

I know that’s a big ask of people. I also know it’s not realistic to expect from most. I guess I just don’t want to resign myself to “it is what it is” when the possibility for stagnation and the possibility of losing out on so much unrealized potential exists.

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02/04/2019 01:34 AM (UTC)
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they can recreate some of the 3d-era characters like some of you have mentioned

but do you think with all the backlash they have had for years they would go to those characters like Hsu Hao, Kira, Kobra etc etc

Nrs/Ed have tried to fix their issues a couple of times and either fixing it for some characters or completely leaving huge plot holes in their stories and then try to go back and forth trying to erase mistakes

look at mkx people were so upset with the roster, you asked for new characters well there you had quite a few new ones then after it's released everyone is pissed it's too much of a Special Forces cast well what do you do when like half your characters are dead you can't have Liu and Kitana be Special Forces people when they are revenants, Kung Lao is not there either so the White Lotus if that was already with Raiden and Fujin, Kung JIn didn't think joining their group (White Lotus) because of the whole Gay thing, but he also had his friends so i don't think he would just leave them to join Raiden

and maybe to NRS they don't want to not be successful nowadays everything from games, toys, tv shows, movies if you don't have a certain amount of millions it's a failure (argue if you want but it's true) so for them to go back to their original cast should not be a huge problem even though it is not one character looks exactly the same from the moment they started the game (ok yes some just have updated looks) but some of them have evolved for the better and some well where can they go? leaving them out no matter what will always have people complaining they can not please everyone even though Ed says the shit he says but let's face it he is the biggest troll so how can you take him serious

we have no idea what MK!! will turn out to be maybe with this storyline with what they are going with maybe this is 'the end' who knows really, by that i mean maybe with the time bending stuff maybe they will turn everyone back to how they were give them some sappy happily ever after story and then this could by all means be the last of majority of the characters. but the game will not be successful with future games only have raiden, sub and scorpion even if they are popular or not and the rest of the roster being new characters you would not truly enjoy that, cause if they created new characters there is not much more they can go with their creations you already have someone who controls time, the weather, ice, fire, wind, screaming your ears off, green shadows, fans, sais, a staff, you've had your humands, you had reptile, dragon types, you've had your elder gods so what else can they do that does not mimic another character from another franchise?

i know video games are not always original with their characters, but nrs has had so much hate towards them from their fans cause a specific character was not in their games, if the 3d-era was not that successful for them why would they bring back Mokap, Meat why would they bring in joke characters if people hated them so much, the mk community i know is all ages, races, all genders and we are all passionate about this game and you have your newcomers, the hardcore fans and the inbetweeners but NRS will do what they want cause it's their story to tell

so if Johnny is in 5 games and Reiko has been a NPC or cameo why you got to hate, they love Johnny so of course they will keep using him till they want to stop, if the roster gets boring to you and makes you all 'ugh its mk20 and johnny is still there' oh well you can chose to keep playing/buying their games or not if your a true mk fan then you shouldn't really be that upset to see familiar faces

and also like it was said here they left out Scorpion in mk3 and fans were pissed, to where they brought in umk3 and mkt to please everyone. if they made the next game and sub and scorp were out how pissed would you be yeah they are the poster boys or atleast scorpion is, but Sonya is also their first female if they didn't put her in the first game it would have been all guys until mk2 Mileena and Kitana were their first female ninjas with unique moves why would they get rid of them and put in Sareena and Li Mei they are not as popular as these two were/still are even now fans are asking for Mileena to return and yet you want new characters to replace familiar faces like come on you want this person in but you want this person out no matter who is in or who is out a fan or fans will be pissed that character is not in and god knows when they will return

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barakall
02/04/2019 11:05 PM (UTC)Edited 02/04/2019 11:07 PM (UTC)
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Baraka407

First off, GREAT post, man! Read it from top to bottom and really appreciated the analysis of each game’s characters in particular.

I think what’s strange about the 3D era is that it’s regarded as this dark time in MKs history, but Deadly Alliance and Deception reviewed almost as well as MK1 and MK2 (we’re talking a .1 or .2 difference on metacritic) and MK3 and MK4 reviewers similarly as well.

Then you look at the characters from each game in the context of when they were released and you can see memory constraints in the 2D games and time constraints in the 3D era, and I’m sure there were other factors as well, such as budget, technological limitations, etc.

The real differences, to me, and the real factors that separate the 2D era and 3D era characters are nostalgia and evolution. Noob for example, began largely as a joke, grew in to a character with his own moves in Trilogy, gained some story background in the form of a unique twist, gained a more of a unique look in MKD, and then took a substantial leap forward in MK9 when his look, moveset and story evolved considerably.

We’ve actually seen that evolution in Quan Chi, a 3D era character as well, starting out as a kinda silly looking villain in Mythologies, one of the worst games in the MK-verse. But he was in MK4, he evolved further in MKDA, and then much further in MK9 and MKX into one of the biggest story villains.

So for me, this IS an argument for 3D characters. We can’t change history, of course. Johnny Cage is considered a classic and he’s been in a ton of games and Reiko isn’t classic and wasn’t in a ton of games. Ask any fighting game fan if they’ve heard of these two and Cage will be remembered far more than Reiko.

But here’s the thing. I think you CAN have a roster that largely caters toward fans familiar with the Trilogy cast while appeasing the 3D era fans that do in fact exist, even if their numbers are smaller. If you have a 26 character roster, you could have three 3D era characters, three MKX characters and three new characters while leaving SEVENTEEN spots for Trilogy characters.

I don’t see why every group can’t get some of what they want. If they can shoehorn Quan Chi (and Kenshi) in to a retelling of MK1-3, why not find ways to bring in other characters from that era that have fans and could still fit in to this time bending story?

Maybe I’m just naive, but I really think that if some 3D era characters had the chance to evolve the way that characters like Noob or even Quan Chi has over the course of several games, they could certainly be regarded as highly by all fans as many Trilogy characters. I think Tanya and Bo Rai Cho have shown that they can still evolve characters, so why not continue that with a few more characters? Maybe three on the main roster and two or three more as DLC.

Fujin, Sareena, Havik, Frost, Li Mei and Reiko seem to be the most requested by 3D era fans. Four of them were already cameos in MKX so it’s not like they’d be completely unfamiliar to newer fans. You get a nice balance, everyone’s appeased, and Trilogy characters that don’t make the cut can be cameos that become DLC or they’re skipped entirely so fans can look forward to them in MK12 the way many of us look forward to Jade, Smoke, Noob and Shang Tsung for MK11.

Another added benefit to me is that you still keep the roster fresh. MK9 had a reason for being Trilogy only, but even with this new story, I really don’t think it’s a great idea to keep going back to that well. People love nostalgia until they don’t anymore, and if you’re releasing a game where 80+% of the roster is exactly the same from the good ol days every four to six years, the novelty will wear out if you’re only offering them the halcyon past, and people are going to get tired of it, regardless of how new the story, modes and gameplay are. At least that’s my fear.

I don’t want them to Street Fighter 3 the roster either because you absolutely need more than two or three familiar faces. But again, a healthy balance would, to me, help keep things fresh, unpredictable, and cater to as many parts of the fandom as possible. I’d rather see that than see another way to retell the same story with the same characters. I feel like many are waiting to see the story move forward. Hopefully this is it? Combine the timelines, make everyone young again, keep the good stuff, ditch the bad stuff, and then set things in motion.

Thats just me though. What do you think?

Thank you and may I thank you in return as you've truly taken the time to read it and comment on it. You get what I was saying, but my point was given MK's history, this will probably be the formula they will stick with as it pleases NRS, Warner Bros for the revenue and the people new to the franchise as they at least recognise some of them. Indeed Reptile and Noob started off as nobody's and turned it somebody's, but given how the games have been developed and the biggest success still lies in that early era and the MK 2011 reboot, there's no reason to think they will change. So maybe you are a bit naive hehe ;)

It's a bit pointless to get your hopes up is also a message to myself and other fans who want to see those 3D characters you mentioned. For Boon in particular, this is his baby and I can see why - given that the man probably has quite an ego and sense of this is mine - he keeps going back to his own personal favorites. Also, I also can understand that Midway's bankruptcy and somewhat less successful 3D era and complaints about the classics not being in that they don't really like to go back to that.

I can actually see NRS doing this for another generation of games and then maybe call it a day, as in Boon and some other staple guys leaving or passing it on to the next generation. They might change the formula, but I don't see it changing with the current team as constructed. As I've said many times in different topics, Boon has admitted that he doesn't know what to do next (after MKX). They are running out of ideas to recycle it and it's hard to truly move forward, but they might take a serious risk though I'd understand if they won't. I personally think people would still buy it with just Scorpion, Sub-Zero and a handful of OGs and all new + 3D era since the graphics and gameplay are top-notch, but there's emotions and sentiment, a sense of nostalgia involved that is hard to let go off. Apparently.

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