Tier List discussion with suggested nerfs/buffs
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posted03/03/2014 06:08 AM (UTC)by
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TemperaryUserName
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02/10/2003 01:32 AM (UTC)
Sup, guys. I put together a tier list for the game and was hoping to get some feedback. If you disagree with any of the rankings, I invite you to explain your reasoning.

This tier list was NOT put together with match up numbers nor was it based on tournament top 8's. I made the list purely on tool sets. There's two reasons I did this.

The first reason is that there are no authoritative match up numbers for low-tier characters. There's just too little footage of high level play in the bottom half of the cast. That's without controversy. This is not to discredit the low-tier tourney players. Huge props to the all the low-tier warriors who broke down characters like Jade and Stryker (Espio deserves a medal). That said, match ups cannot be learned in a vacuum.

Look at Cage. For the first year, most people thought Cage was outside of the top 15. The very thought of that is laughable now. Hence, any match up chart made with a character who hasn't made numerous top 8's is not sound IMO. If you disagree, I invite you to post your match up chart.

The second reason is that the match up system is fundamentally flawed. It's based off two abstract players of equal strength, but under analysis, no one actually knows what the hell that means. Are they equally talented in the same skills? If the two character require different skill sets, are their skill levels equally relative to each player? No one fucking knows. It's a bad system that needs to be reworked. Also, it's circular! Saying the two players play at the highest level assumes you know what the character looks like at the highest level, which is clearly not the case with the bottom 10. Any numbers are based off the assumption that we've seen Jade or Sheeva at their best. We simply have not, and again, I invite you to explain if you disagree.

So this is my list. I put suggested nerfs in parentheses. Let me know if you guys would suggest any other changes. Personally, I don't recommend nerfing anyone outside of the top 10, and I don't recommend buffing anyone outside of the bottom 5. That's me, though. Finally, rankings aren't terribly strict outside of the top 6. I mostly tried to make sure characters were in the right tier class. Anyway, let me know what you think.


S+
1. Cyrax (Make bombs drastically scale; fix corner infinite)
2. Kabal (Remove Ex-Dash armor; Cool down on IAGB; make ground saw hit high)
3. Kenshi (Less pushback on shoulder; more scaling on armored combo starters)
4. Sonya (Remove Armor on Ex-Cartwheel; Damage Reduction)

S
5. Kung Lao (add three frames of recovery on whiffed divekick)
6. Smoke (Fix Ex-Bomb reset)
7. Freddy

A+
8. Johnny Cage
9. Reptile
10. Kitana
11. Skarlet

A+
12. Liu Kang
13. Jax
14. Shang Tsung
15. Sektor

B
16. Raiden
17. Quan Chi
18. Sub-Zero
19. Mileena
20. Sindel
21. Ermac
22. Scorpion
23. Rain

C
24. Nightwolf
25. Noob Saibot
26. Stryker
27. Baraka
28. Cyber Sub-Zero
29. Jade

D
30. Kano
31. Sheeva
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Icebaby
03/01/2014 01:05 AM (UTC)
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Cyber Sub-Zero is that far down on your list?

I thought he was a beast, at least that's what I thought since I play as him mostly.
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03/01/2014 01:44 AM (UTC)
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Icebaby Wrote:
Cyber Sub-Zero is that far down on your list?

I thought he was a beast, at least that's what I thought since I play as him mostly.

I'll admit I know little about the character, but the consensus is that his normals are poor and he has problems controlling space. He gets good damage off of Ex-parry, but that's high risk. The divekick isn't bad, but trying to get into the sweet space where it's most affective is not reasonable in all match ups (and you'd have to land A LOT of them). I'm told some characters can actually punish a blocked divekick, but I've never seen anyone actually do it.

I don't think he's a lost cause, though. He may very well be better than the above characters in C-tier. Hell, I was eliminated by a cyber-sub at Evo 2012. Truth is, I could be totally wrong about every character in the bottom 10 (or any rank, really). There's just so few people putting in work.

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Zmoke
03/01/2014 01:48 AM (UTC)
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Where would you put the war god approximately?
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03/01/2014 01:53 AM (UTC)
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Zmoke Wrote:
Where would you put the war god approximately?

That's a really good question. If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere in B-Tier, but if I remember correctly, he's one of the few characters who didn't get changed in the patches. He may very well have some broken tech that puts him in top 10 (though he'll have competition no matter what since most of the top 10 has OP stuff).
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Zmoke
03/01/2014 02:05 AM (UTC)
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TemperaryUserName Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
Where would you put the war god approximately?

That's a really good question. If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere in B-Tier, but if I remember correctly, he's one of the few characters who didn't get changed in the patches. He may very well have some broken tech that puts him in top 10 (though he'll have competition no matter what since most of the top 10 has OP stuff).

Console-specific fighters give good contrast to being in EVO vs. no EVO.
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Mojo6
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03/02/2014 04:47 PM (UTC)
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Nice tier list Temp though Kabal is widely believed to be in his own broken ass godlike tier. MK9 could've used one final balancing patch sadly to fix bugs and balance. After seeing what they did for Injustice though I have faith in MK10.

You should do one for Injustice v1.06.
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03/02/2014 08:19 PM (UTC)
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Mojo6 Wrote:
Nice tier list Temp though Kabal is widely believed to be in his own broken ass godlike tier.

Until about a month ago, I thought the same. If it was only the 100% combos, I would probably keep Cyrax ranked 2nd (but definitely not lower). However, Cyrax's footsies and meter-building are ridiculous. Even if you have breaker, Cyrax has unbreakable high-damage combos as well as the meter-stealing Ex-Net (which has been vindicated as a tournament viable strategy time and again).

Also, as good as Kabal is, none of his tools in of themselves are broken. As matter of fact, I'm letting him keep one of his dumbest tools: the huge hitbox on F+4. That's the reason he's able to convert into pressure from all his air hits.

But Cyrax... man, 3 bars of meter (or often less) and every road leads to death. Jab anti-air? 100% combo. Air net? 100% combo. Net whiff punish after back dash? 100% combo. And the character isn't even done evolving. His footsie game just gets better with every era of MK9. That said, Kabal does have one huge meta-game advantage in that the opponent has to constantly shift gears from offense/defense. You're either chasing Kabal across the stage, or you're trying to guess your way out of his pressure. It's mentally exhausting, and you have to know so much frame data to even stand a chance.
Though for now, I am alone in this conclusion, lol. We'll see if the community agrees with me in long run.

Mojo6 Wrote:
MK9 could've used one final balancing patch sadly to fix bugs and balance.

Though I don't think the input bug is fixable, you're absolutely right. If you take out the top 5 in this game, it's actually incredibly balanced. The things that make the top 5 OP are incredibly transparent and would be easy nerfs. And even if that's not the case, would over-nerfing the top 5 really be so horrible? God forbid Sonya and Kenshi have to chill with the mid-tier characters.

I'm definitely hesitant to buff the bottom tier, though. I think Sheeva with the wrong buffs could make her ridiculous. With the exception of Stryker, I would only give the C-tier characters damage buffs and make their best pressure chains uninterruptible (especially Nightwolf; that character is so close to being mid-tier it's stupid).

Mojo6 Wrote:
You should do one for Injustice v1.06.

I actually don't know a whole lot about Injustice, lol. I dropped the game back in July because I was having a character crisis, and every tournament was an uphill battle against the Superman army. Eventually, I just said "life's too short" and quit... which I deeply regret. I wish I had stuck with it, sucked up my loses, and been in full gear when the new patch rocked in October. Even after the patch, I didn't pick the game back up until January after I saw recent top 8's. Really love the tournament diversity now.
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Mojo6
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03/03/2014 06:08 AM (UTC)
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I actually don't know a whole lot about Injustice, lol. I dropped the game back in July because I was having a character crisis, and every tournament was an uphill battle against the Superman army. Eventually, I just said "life's too short" and quit... which I deeply regret. I wish I had stuck with it, sucked up my loses, and been in full gear when the new patch rocked in October. Even after the patch, I didn't pick the game back up until January after I saw recent top 8's. Really love the tournament diversity now.


Who did/do you main in Injustice and MK? It really is like a different game now.
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