Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
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Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/07/2014 06:35 PM EST
Many post-MK3 characters, like Jarek, were rejected by most of the fanbase for lacking moves of their own. Kuai Liang however, was immediatly accepted as Bi-Han's replacement.

Why? Back then, we didn't have a reason to believe that Bi-Han's mastery of the cold was at all genetic. So really, it was rather convenient back then that Bi-Han had a brother with the exact same abilities. Yet characters like Jarek and Kira are considered bad in large part because they lack (lacked, in Jarek's case) moves of their own. Jade, Reptile, Smoke and Noob Saibot all lacked moves of their own too, at first, but were popular anyway. Though they did have the potential for individual gameplay, so I can understand their popularity. But Kuai Liang and Frost, who are both defined by their mastery over the cold, like Bi-Han, and thus are limited when it comes to individualized gameplay, are still hugely loved.

Some might say that Scorpion's character development required Bi-Han to die, justifying the younger brother's existence (especially if Noob Saibot was intended to be Bi-Han from the start, which I doubt). Some might also say that Kuai Liang had a better story, but before MKM came out, there was no reason his character development couldn't have been Bi-Han's, instead. Neither explain Frost's popularity before she and the brothers were revealed to be a species of their own, however.

So why are the likes of Ashrah, Darrius and Jarek rejected for their lack of unique moves, unlike KL? Is it because they're not ninjas? Or related to Sub-Zero? if it's because of their stories, well, it's hard for a character to get much developement when she/he doesn't get much exposure. KL didn't have much going for him in his first appearance either besides being the younger brother, and apparently more compassionate.

It just reeks of hypocrisy to me. The problem with many of the new characters post-MK3 imo is a lack of individual moves, but their stories are, well, a different story entirely. It's annoying to see so much potential wasted away.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/07/2014 07:09 PM EST
It's because everybody rocked in Mortal Kombat II.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/07/2014 08:51 PM EST
There being two Sub-Zeros was introduced in 1993. Most of us were in Elementary School at the time, we weren't exactly hard to please.
Now that we're adults, with standards and criticism skills, it's already an accepted part of history. And besides, Kuai is a WAY more fleshed out character than Bi-Han's ever been.
If Kira was a better written or more famous character than Sonya or Kano, people probably wouldn't care about her moves as much. And you're absolutely right that part of the problem is it's hard for a new character to get screentime with which to flesh them out better (Hell, let's not forget that even originals like Sonya, Cage, and Kano actually got their personalities for the first time from a movie, not from the games), but what can we do when instead of making more content with the Post-MK3 cast, games and adaptations both keep deciding to retell the original tournament over and over again?
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/08/2014 02:41 AM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
There being two Sub-Zeros was introduced in 1993. Most of us were in Elementary School at the time, we weren't exactly hard to please.


I was in the womb. Nutrients from a tube is all that I needed to be happy.

But any, I'm a fan of the double Sub-Zeros and I definitely prefer Kuai Liang to Bi-Han. I want Sub-Zero to be a good guy, and Bi-Han is just an over-the-top ass.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/09/2014 02:12 PM EST
So, the point of the problem is that Sub-Zero, the Kuai Liang version, lacks new powers and the characters that debuted in the later games aren't as well liked because they lacked powers of their own?

Didn't Kuai Liang showed us new abilities throughout the series? So technically speaking, he's got original moves of his own, they just didn't come until later on while a new character added to the series basically "replaced" one-two characters depending on their powers when they could have easily had new abilities of their own.

If the "newer" characters have another chance in the future games, I'm sure that they'll be more creative with their specials and such. The problem is that they basically had one chance to show to fans that they can be a well-liked characters, and for the characters that had two chances, they were either a hit or miss. Some liked Li Mei, others didn't. Some like Bo Rai' Cho, others didn't.

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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/12/2014 12:36 PM EST
Icebaby Wrote:
So, the point of the problem is that Sub-Zero, the Kuai Liang version, lacks new powers and the characters that debuted in the later games aren't as well liked because they lacked powers of their own?

Didn't Kuai Liang showed us new abilities throughout the series? So technically speaking, he's got original moves of his own, they just didn't come until later on while a new character added to the series basically "replaced" one-two characters depending on their powers when they could have easily had new abilities of their own.

If the "newer" characters have another chance in the future games, I'm sure that they'll be more creative with their specials and such. The problem is that they basically had one chance to show to fans that they can be a well-liked characters, and for the characters that had two chances, they were either a hit or miss. Some liked Li Mei, others didn't. Some like Bo Rai' Cho, others didn't.



All of KL's (and Frost's) "individual" abilities are abilities that Bi-Han himself could have had, and did, in MKM (KL's of course, not Frost's). KL even got Frost's ground freeze in the last game. If Kano used a lasso like Jarek did in MKA however, he'd be the one ripping off Jarek this time around. Another similar example is Noob using Reiko's Shurikens in MKD and A. But a Cryomancer using another one's moves is a different story. I see absolutely no reason Frost also couldn't create ice clones of her own, logically, other than the need to make her gameplay different from the other two (which would be unnecessary if she was the only Cryomancer in a future installment).

My problem isn't that KL's popular. It's just the hypocritical rejection of many of the new characters post-MK3, seemingly for lacking their own moves, in large part, that bothers me. It's ridiculous to reject Kira for that reason yet love KL and Frost, when those two, being Cryomancers, both have limited (if not non-existent) potential for unique moves that only one of them could logically have, as I said in my OP. There's nothing about Kira's story requiring her to be essentially "Kanya" or "Sono" gameplay wise. But short of Frost or KL pulling a Noob and completely losing their cool heritage, neither can really have a moveset unrelated to the cold now, can they? Gameplay-wise, Cyber-Sub-Zero almost seemed like an excuse to give KL extra moves without overpowering the "human" version by giving said version all of these moves.

In short, Tanya killing her foes with a kiss= WTF Kitana ripoff! When that and being Edenian is pretty much all these two have in common. KL and Frost having the same abilities as Bi-Han (before they were revealed to be of the same non-human species, may I add)= no big deal, apparently. And I do like these two, just so you know.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/12/2014 02:17 PM EST
Actually, people do fuss about Frost's abilities, seeing how they constantly call her a "Sub-Zero clone," despite in her biography it clearly states that she has similar freezing abilities to Sub-Zero. So it would make sense that she has abilities that we've seen before, despite that they made it have her own touch rather than copying it exactly.

Tanya having the kiss of death can also be explained since Kitana WAS supposed to be in the fourth, but the developers thought that they wanted to see a new face so that is when Tanya came about.

People like Sub-Zero a lot more than newer characters because of the obvious reasons. And when they do try to give him different moves, such as the ice nugget, not too many people were fond of it. I liked it because I thought it was an interesting new move, but many didn't because they thought that it took too long for him to create it, in which you have to time it perfectly in order to use it. His newer moves don't get well-liked which I find kind of funny to be honest. Heck, even when they decided to change him completely it got disliked. There are things that people don't like about Sub-Zero and it's fairly noticeable. The only problem is that he's one of the two icons of the game so he's going to be more well-liked than anyone else, whether or not he's given new moves. That's just how it is.

But like I said before, if these post Mortal Kombat 3 characters get another chance to come about, I'm sure they'll become well-liked with moves of their own.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/13/2014 01:08 AM EST
Yeah, Frost was a bad example for your point because people hate her moves as much as they hate Jarek and Kira's.

And for the record, I like Kira's character. She's got a cool design and a good bio. I also love everything about the MK4 version of Tanya.

Jarek is the only "copycat" character I can't defend because not only are his moves in 4 copies of Kano for NO good reason (why does he have eye lasers? How can ANYONE, Kano included, fly by curling up into a ball and spinning?! If Kano were just jumping and landing back-first onto guys like a Senton Splash in pro-wrestling or the Acro-Circus move in River City Ransom, that'd make some sense, but no. He fucking FLIES. How is he doing that? He's not a mystical chi guy, he's a cyborg, and he doesn't have jet engines anywhere in his body, do you see fire trails shooting out of his feet or back? 'Cause I don't! And Jarek and Kira are NOT even cyborgs, so what's their excuse?!)

But also, his story is nearly non-existent and his design is bland in 4 and flatout an ugly mess in Armageddon.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/13/2014 10:12 AM EST
I remember that when MK:DA came out, Frost was one of the more popular new characters. She was included in the Unleashed version of MKD for PSP, after all. Did that change? Was she included in MKDU in spite of the fanbase, rather than because of it?

Anyway, my point still stands. Lot of people still love a clone, and yet bash another, for being a clone.

As for why Jarek had eye lazers, other than laziness from Midway, well, why can Jax throw purple sonic booms? Why could Sektor teleport before even becoming a cyborg? Why can Sonya blow fiery (or blinding) kisses at her opponents? Why can Hsu Hao blow people away by clapping his hands? Why can Kano curl himself up into a ball in the air? Because in the MK universe, some humans have magical/superhuman abilities, and don't all need to be "mystical chi guys". Kano might have needed an implant to fire eye lazers (not that we actually know that for sure) but perhaps Jarek didn't. That, or his implants were inside his eyes, and not at all visible unlike Kano's.

As for Jarek having a non-existent story, well, another point of mine still stands, that he'd need to be given another chance to improve as a character. MKA didn't count, storywise, as all it did was individualize Jarek's gameplay, though that's a start. From what little we know about him, he didn't seem as smart as Kano, and unlike him, didn't seem all that interested in allying with otherwordly fiends such as Shinnok. To me, he could be a contrast to both Kano and Kabal. Not as evil as Kano, more willing to cooperate with the heroes, but is not interested in redemption, unlike Kabal. He fully enjoys his life as a criminal.

Jarek's not the best of the "copycat" characters, but he does have some potential.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/13/2014 12:39 PM EST
@Razors:

Kano, Jarek, and Kira have the Black Dragon ball move because they're all in the same faction. There's no reasonable explanation why they can all pull this move off if we're using logic, even in the MK universe. The fact is that these characters need special moves to make the gameplay interesting. Same thing with Sonya; she has a move where she flies across the screen as well. I don't think anyone needs an explanation as to why she can do that, or why Kano can fly across the screen while tucked in a ball. They're special moves in a fighting game, where all characters have (and need) special gravity defying abilities to give the game balance.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/13/2014 01:53 PM EST
DG1OA Wrote:
As for why Jarek had eye lazers, other than laziness from Midway, well, why can Jax throw purple sonic booms? Why could Sektor teleport before even becoming a cyborg? Why can Sonya blow fiery (or blinding) kisses at her opponents? Why can Hsu Hao blow people away by clapping his hands? Why can Kano curl himself up into a ball in the air? Because in the MK universe, some humans have magical/superhuman abilities


That's just it though, everybody else who has powers, it's been explained.

Jax was established in MK2 as literally "the Strongest Man in the World", which means he's so disciplined and obsessed with working out and building his strength that it's equivalent to the meditation and rigorous training of a monk. He unlocked his full potential and has chi now (at least, until he replaced it with even stronger tech-arms).

Human-Sektor teleports because Lin Kuei membership specifically seeks out people born with inherited mutant or magic powers and his dad is the grandmaster. The only one in the clan with no powers is Cyrax, he's a Batman-style gadget guy, and they didn't choose him, he asked to join.

Hsu Hao can clap wind for the same reason Superman or the Hulk can, that's a common trick of superhuman strength, which he has due to his own bionic enhancements.

Johnny Cage has magic cultist ancestors and trained with actual secret masters and shit in Asia before he became a movie star. Liu and Kung Lao obviously have the "monks with knowledge of chi" thing going for them. Kitana, Mileena, and Jade come from a realm where learning to use magic is commonplace.

Nightwolf is a kind of sorcerer who speaks to the ghosts of his dead ancestors and they lend him their energy so that he can do the same sort of soul-magic that Ermac and Shao Kahn do.

Kabal they specifically went out of their way to establish in 9 didn't have powers at first and got his superspeed from Shang Tsung using magic to repair his burnt up flesh.

Now...you mentioned Sonya, she's a problem. She is the ONLY MK1-thru-3 character whose superpowers are still without a proper origin story, but some of her moves like the laser-esque visual effects of the pink rings, and the versions of the kiss where she blows a pink dust, look like they could just be tools/weaponry, the dumb Square Wave Punch was retconned out of her moveset in MK9, and picking up a Bike Kick in MK3 suggested that she's gotten chi-training from the other chosen ones like Liu AFTER coming to the tournament.

The explanation for Kano's moves is SUPPOSED to be that his cybernetics go beyond just the eyepiece. He specifically DOESN'T know anything about magic or chi because he's an undisciplined thug with a purely modern world background, all sci-fi, no fantasy.

But having bionic joints under the skin wouldn't let a person fly, he's got no jets in his body, so the fact that the Kanoball can float in place or shoot at an upward angle is kinda dumb. Personally, I think it should be re-animated to arc like a regular human flip that just crashlands into people, the way Sonya's Square Wave was replaced with a more plausible looking handspringing jumpkick, Kitana's version was changed so that she's clearly using gusts of wind from her fans to push herself and slam back-first into people, or how Liu's Bike Kick was mo-capped in MK9 so that he's in more of a standing/stepping position rather than the old way where he was sitting back like he's in an invisible recliner.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/13/2014 02:09 PM EST
Sonya is just one big, hot mess, I guess that's the best way you can answer as to how she has those powers. And I'm not saying that just because she's my least favorite female character in the series.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/14/2014 03:22 AM EST
Absolutely nothing gets by you Razor. Your attention to detail is astounding and I commend you for that. While Netherrealm (and formerly Midway) does a pretty good job of using logic for characters' abilities (like the examples you gave)I don't think every last move the characters do need to make sense. Since we're on the Kano flying canon ball move, why change something that has been part of his move set for 22 years? What about his fatality where he pulls his opponents entire skeleton out? That seems outlandish and impossible for any one to pull off no matter what their abilities may be.

This is where I believe we need to separate the "explanation for everything" way of thinking to "it's just a friggin video game." Without special moves and abilities, the human characters would be incredibly imbalanced compared to their magic wielding counterparts.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/14/2014 07:56 AM EST
There's no need to look into it too much. Kano can break not only the laws of justice but the laws of physics as well, because he is the public enemy #1.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/14/2014 08:02 AM EST
RyanSeabass Wrote:
Since we're on the Kano flying canon ball move, why change something that has been part of his move set for 22 years?


Kano's so low tier that I doubt there'd be any complaining if any of his moves were reimagined.

Besides, I'm only suggesting changing the way a move works to be arced instead of a straight line. I'm not saying get rid of it altogether. And in Mortal Kombat, movesets aren't untouchable, they've already radically changed a lot of people's moves once in Deadly Alliance, and again in MK9.

RyanSeabass Wrote:
What about his fatality where he pulls his opponents entire skeleton out?


Well...MK3 treated finishers as comedy relief. For that one game, they don't really count. It's not like Jax can actually turn into a giant or Kabal's face is really scary enough to kill a man.
RyanSeabass Wrote:
Without special moves and abilities, the human characters would be incredibly imbalanced compared to their magic wielding counterparts.

The fact that Stryker can keep up is what makes him a badass. Like Batman somehow not being useless when hanging out with the rest of the Justice League.
That said, storywise, there's SUPPOSED to be an imbalance. It's CANON that not even Kung Lao is good enough to win a tournament, ONLY Liu Kang and Raiden are at all capable of fighting guys on Shang or Kahn's level.
We're supposed to be legit worried about the fact that only Johnny and Sonya survived MK9. "There's no way those two can save us from Shinnok, Earth SEEMS doomed as a result of Raiden getting everybody killed", is kind of the POINT of storymode's ending.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/14/2014 10:57 AM EST
@Razors:

I totally agree with you on your last point. Story wise, characters such as Liu Kang and Raiden are the cream of the crop. No way are Sonya and Cage on their level. GAMEPLAY wise they need to be balanced from a competitive standpoint and in order to have a level playing field. That is what I was getting at and why I'm fine with lower tier characters having special abilities (Kano's cannonball) that don't necessarily make much sense.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/14/2014 04:36 PM EST
Well I'm not arguing that Kano shouldn't have the cannonball, I just think the move would not only make more sense, but might even actually be a more useful move if the way it moves were changed a bit.

And frankly, having more than one version of it makes him a little boring to play as. Kano would be better gameplay wise if you kept the regular cannonball but sacked out the upward one and replaced it with a greater variety of moves. I mean, WHY is he such a bad character to play as competitively, y'know? There's gotta be improvements made if you want him to not suck compared to the characters people win tourneys with like Kung Lao, Cyrax, Kitana, etc.

Personally, I at least want to see the eye laser come back, but I also think he could use more moves where he grapples people, like his choke or Jax's Pro Wrasslin' moves.
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RE: Kuai Liangs (younger Sub-Zero) popularity
04/18/2014 03:55 PM EST
& bring back Subby's Ice shower!
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