MK Gameplay Primer + MKDA's & MKD's failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Frame Ad
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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDAs and MKDs lacking fighting system written for everyone.
06/03/2007 01:45 AM EDT
i never lose
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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + MKDAs & MKDs failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Frame Advantag
12/10/2007 01:54 PM EST
HD tran,are you the one who written this?
So you think that the MK fighting is failed?

And you DARE to compare MK with that shit named DOA?

You know,you are just sayin that because you can't play MK... you most be some kind of noob button masher who always gets his ass kicked in MK...

MK DA has the most unique fighting system!
It's far from being failed.The goal of midway is not to be Number one!Their goal is to distract the fans and create something unique.

The critics are always sayin that MK is shit because of the fighting system but in fact,it's just because they are button mashers who can't even do a 5 hit combo!
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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + MKDAs & MKDs failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Frame Advantag
01/10/2008 11:24 AM EST
dude I think you are so right
HDTran Wrote:
Huy Tran's Primer on MK Gameplay

Here's MKDA 101.

This is for all the MK gamers out there who want to hear objectively what all of us have been trying to explain for so long, I've used this in another thread to point out to a few individuals and decided not to let it go to waste and improve on it a tad. FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT WISH TO UNDERSTAND THE FIGHTING ENGINE OR DISCUSS IT, PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW. MINI-GAMES, STORIES, CHARACTERS, FATALITIES, DEATH TRAPS, ETC. CAN BE LEFT TO BE HANDLED BY OTHER THREADS. If you guys really want to understand the game, this post will explain the main gripes. For everyone else, read this if you want to understand the flaws of MK as well as dominate the competition. To understand a game's flaws is to create a better sequel. Every other fighting community talks about improving the current incarnation out, only on the MK Boards is looking at the fighting system and admitting to it's faults is seen as a bad and horrible thing for "elitists" and "haters". Everyone who points out gameplay problems has one thing in mind, to make one of their favorite games (either in childhood or now) to become better. We all want MK to become better and we don't want MK to lose what MK is in the process, but in that process, we must admit what MK is lacking. People demand better costumes, returning characters, fatalities, etc. and other fluff in other threads, but it's about time the gameplay crowd wants more.

Only one strat for every character, only a few characters dominating everyone else in MKDA. I could easily break down every character in MKDA with a simple mixup that is 50/50 entirely since MKDA's animation, which hasn't been changed in MKD, speeds up all moves to the point that you're just playing Rock Paper Scissors. In other 3d games, animations are more fluid so you can see certain things coming before they do.

Generally, the more slower moves like lows and throws are slow, which allow you to prioritize a mid game, which leaves you generally open and a high-game, which while can be ducked, is faster and recovers safer. But you still need to attempt lows and throws or else the opponent could just stand and block. Now MKDA and MKD (the animation hasn't changed), doesn't have this balance in animation, good lows are safe and recover as fast as highs and mids. Likewise, throws recover just as fast and come out instantly, therefore you get a 50/50 mixup all the time... which obviously devolves the game into simple Rock Paper Scissors.

What's worse is the usability of the moves, mainly properties of moves in MKDA. You find your character's best low, you find your character's best mid, use your best juggle, abuse universal tracking and Backdash cancelling and thats all MKDA really is. Let me explain this to you when what all these guys are talking about depth and all.

Sub-Zero's Game devolves into the following:
Go into Dragon stance, do not go into other stances, they are not safe and you will be raped by Scorpion, BRC, etc. more easily than you would get raped by them if you do.

In Dragon:
d+3, you're only semi-safe low, does crap damage, but recovers fast, disturbs a lot, and executes fast.

Mid launcher, I generally use his uppercut. This leads into an air combo, but since Sub is so limited in damage, I generally do uppercut > ice

shaker > power-up > 1, 2, CS... change back into Dragon Quickly.

I backdash after my d+3 and failed attempts at special moves and other risks I must take since

Sub-Zero is a cruddy character. BDC allows you to essentially make a lot of moves safer.

I use universal tracking by hitting up before moves to make sure that you can never sidestep me, AT ALL. Since all my moves track.

ALL other MK characters devolve into the above aspects and can ONLY be played in those aspects. The only characters that don't are the characters that are good and cheesy. Mainly Scorpion, Bo Rai Cho, etc. because they have things that allow them to play a game above simple rock paper scissors.

Now why do other fighters have more "depth" than MKDA? Simply put, the amount of stuff that is usable, the options that are present, and the ability to adapt to your opponent. When I play MKDA, I'm playing a simple 50/50 mixup. That's all there is, unless I'm Scorpion, Bo Rai Cho, etc. where spacing and all becomes more important since there are so many more ways to attack.

MOVE PROPERTIES, this is something you MUST understand before anything else guys. Okay, Sub-Zero has around hmm... 8 low attacks. Only one is useful when playing safe. Why is this? Because it recovers fast and is safe.

Now you must ask yourself why in Virtua Fighter, certain characters can use upto 5-10 different lows in any given round, why not use the best one that is the fastest and safest, surely there is one. Here's the answer, move properties.

Move properties allow moves that aren't fast and safe to be used because they give you other advantages besides the ratio of execution speed/damage/recovery. MKDA does not have move properties, only this ratio of execution speed/damage/recovery.

Move Properties include:
- Tracking, some moves track sidesteppers and punish sidesteppers better than others. (Rendered Useless by Universal Tracking in MKDA. Simply push up before doing the move and it will track perfectly.)

- Frame Advantage (MKDA has no frame advantage), these moves put you in an advantage after you poke someone with it. Generally Frame Advantage moves that give you noticeable advantage in other games are slower, but your reward for doing a slower move means the next clash, your attack recovers faster than the opponent recovers from blocking your attack. Not only on guard, but also if you counterhit the enemy, or hit normally, the advantage or disadvantage you have will be different. In MKDA, there is either disadvantage or safety. Since disadvantage leaves you open all the same and the fact that most attack options come at blazing speeds, that means people can pull off their biggest combo easily.

Example: Say there was a really slow move that you can't find much use for in your mixup. In games like Tekken or Virtua Fighter, they will give you some hefty advantages when you land it on counterhit. So say your opponent attacks you, and you wind up this very slow move and it hits them during the execution of their attack, this move will, only on counterhit, give you huge frame advantage so that you will recover faster than your opponent and can be able to continue your offense. That is the reward for counterhitting and the reward for using less ideal moves in other games.

- Various stuns. (MKDA doesn't have this) Other fighting games have around 10 different states of being stunned. A stomach crumple, laying on the ground with your head down, or your head up near your opponent, etc. These states allow you to quickly knockdown, as well as put enemies into forced mixups where they must defend correctly due to the fact that while their stun doesn't make anything guranteed, it puts them in such a frame disadvantage that you could never throw out anything, even a jab, to outprioritize what is coming.

- Various floating heights. (MKDA doesn't have this) In Tekken, DoA, Virtua Fighter, you have different heights from juggle starters. Generally better juggle starters are slower, but launch higher. But safer ones launch normally or a low launch, but are safer. In Tekken, juggle starters are rated by class (based on how high they launch), in Virtua Fighter they are also rated by Class and DoA doesn't have a term for the height yet, but I'm sure it'd be the same. This allows for different juggles to be used obviously because of the height launched.

- Counter-hit Opprotunities. (MKDA Doesn't have this) Counter-Hits are the mainstay of 3d fighters and help differentiate attacking characters from defensive characters and etc. Counterhitting is the act of hitting someone while they are attacking and disturbing them, but you get some sort of an advantage for disturbing, however you do not get this advantage when you use it normally and it does not disturb. Some characters in 3d fighters, cannot launch without a counter hit. Sure their offense is fast and bulldog rushdown, but they cannot open up with launchers, stuns, forced mixups without counter-hit. This makes the character very dependent on counter-hitting. Some characters in games are so dependent on Counter-Hit that they are boosted defensively with more defensive options, making them into a defensive character obviously. In MKDA, all character's defensive options are the same and there is no reason for you to wait or try to space and disturb characters cause you gain no advantage from it. Counter-hitting generally gives you juggle opprotunities, stuns, forced mixups, ground game, etc. that are missing from MKDA since they don't have those nor do they have counter-hits with real properties.

- Interrupts/Invincibility. (MKDA doesn't have this... well 5 or so moves for the entire cast that are rendered useless by universal tracking or unfluid animation) In MKDA, there is no real interrupting, sure you can do a move thats faster than another move to stop it, but if you're playing anyone who knows how to play, they've already devolved the game to their fastest and safest moves. Interrupt moves in other 3d Games provide invincibility to certain attack types (punches or kicks or elbows, etc.) and to certain height levels. Examples include moves that sidestep to dodge, moves that go over lows to hit the opponent, moves that crouch under highs to hit the opponent, moves that go through mids (such as a ram) to stop certain abuse, etc. These moves aren't the fastest or the most powerful or the most safe, but if you know what your opponent is attacking with, you can go through their attack with these moves.

- Circular Hit-Range. In MKDA, most hits are linear. The hits that aren't obviously can punish sidesteppers. 3d fighting gamers call this half-circular and full-circular moves. (Soul Calibur refers to them as horizontals and maps a button to designate such) Half Circular moves cover the front half of your character and will push anyone within 180 degrees when they sidestep left and right. Full circular moves will punish anyone around the entire character. Obviously these moves are not as safe and not as powerful, but they allow you to beat sidesteppers. Now MKDA has a few of these moves, but what destroys this concept? Universal Tracking allows you to make every move track, such as a fast jab, a low kick, or HOW ABOUT your main mixup tools for your 50/50 game? Thus moves that track better are not needed since you can make your main moves track sidesteppers just as well.

- Strings instead of chains. This subtle difference is staggering, but its entirely there. In other games, many strings are not guranteed, even if you get first hit, etc. The reason strings are useful is because as they are called, they are a string of attacks which can vary in speed and can mix between highs, mids and lows. In MKDA, they use chains, where the first hit or any hit gurantees the full combo. This makes it so that MKDA uses even less skills as a single jab or first poke into your combo gurantees the entire combo and due to MKDA's animation, they are forced with making chains full of highs and mids, but not low. The thing is, if lows were part of chains in MKDA, it would be too overpowered like Sonya's string and it would destroy the game, why? Because everything is guranteed on whichever hit breaks the defense as well as the delay between a low and a high/mid is oftentimes exactly the same, thus creating another random 50/50 mixup and dial-a-combo system.

- A GOOD Risk vs Reward system. Let's face it, in every 3d competitive game, the highest damage options do not come off of jabs. While this holds true to some combos in MKDA, it is largely flawed because of this. If jabs are one of your safest moves in the game, why not just keep jabbing since it's fast and pokes well and is safe until you get into a big combo? Oh wait... people already do that with Kung Lao and many other jab characters. High damage options should never come off of a jab, NEVER, because a jab is one of the safest and fastest pokes in the game. Now let's compare this is player terms. A handful of character has a few power moves that are unsafe vs. safe jabs. A power hit leads to around hmm... 5% damage, a safe jab means you get to go into a full string that is around 25-30% or more. Now tell me, is there any reason to use power moves and leave your character unsafe and recovering vs. using jabs that is MORE SAFE and does MORE DAMAGE? No... there isn't any, which is why characters like Kung Lao can be played the way he is played. This is especially true since there are no real move properties in MK.

- A decent reversal system. Counters and parries are almost nonexistant in MKDA. You just use your Special Move stance and your character stands there and catches anything... in other games. You have to adjust your counter or parry with different height levels, different attacks, etc. so guessing is very complex. In MKDA.. everytime you think they will attack.. just hit and you catch it.

- A decent/good throw system. (MKDA doesn't have this) MKDA's throws are high-priority mids for low damage. No throw breaks, it doesn't punish high blockers, etc. (which is a less of a reason to use it since you can keep jabbing and poking with highs/mids or lows)

- A decent ground game.. lets face it, there is no way to space or to get people out of your face once you are grounded since there is no ground game. MKDA lacks rising sweeps, rising kicks and substitutes it with a lacking techroll game that is already more complex and complete in other 3d fighters. The only reason your opponent couldn't stay in your face with another 50/50 mixup was because the one standing couldn't dash in... but now they can.

- A decent juggle system. String-based juggles mean easy juggles. Worst part is easy high-damage juggles means staples. Now you look at T4 Jin, people use a staple juggle, but even then it's not as limited as MKDA. In Tekken and Virtua Fighter for example, staple juggles are the best damage/ease to do. But staple juggles are not the most damage, thus if you think you can try for it under the pressure, you can try for more damaging juggles. Cause in Tekken and Virtua Fighter, the stronger juggles consist A LARGE variety of moves that recover differently and aren't made to be put together, but perfect execution will give you that. In MKDA, since everything is string-based, everyone keeps doing the strongest juggle, why not? It's easy and it was made to be stringed together. Also due to the fact that MKDA has strings that only generally have you memorize different button pressures, but no motions, means its even more simpler to do. In Virtua Fighter, Tekken and even DoA combos, in any real given juggle, you're moving through half-circle, quarter-circle, back, forwards, forward forward and combinations of punches and kicks that make juggling a challenge and the biggest ones require you have to perfect frame execution.

- A decent wall game. You can't pressure someone when their back is to the wall in MKDA, nor does it help your juggles and combos. Infact, it gives them a quick and easy wall tech which means they are at an advantage when they are against the wall because half of your stuff will not work or they wont affect you at all which means you don't get advantage for knowing your environment and moving around it.

- USEFUL stances, hell in MKDA, most characters are only usable in one stance since most stances are so ridiculously useless. In other fighting games like Tekken 3, Soul Calibur 2, Virtua Fighter 4:Evolution, Dead or Alive; many characters have many stances that are good for them and help them either execute different strategies, boost their defense, etc. In MKDA and MKD's system is very flawed mainly from a few things. Weapon stances means you generally exchange your execution speed for damage, but you also get delay. The bad part about this is MK's weapon stance makes you take more damage when you're in it, few have any safe moves opposed to hand-to-hand stances, and few have any real options to it, so weapon stances are for the most part, useless. Only 2-3 weapon stances in the entire MKDA was decent. On hand-to-hand stances, it is so clear, based on the ratio of execution speed/damage/delay and 50/50 mixup would yield characters that are inherently unbalanced from others. Examples like Reptile in his crab form who can constantly do mixups faster than 95% of the cast and is safe the entire time show this. Stances in MKDA weren't useful at all other than for combos and 80% of the cast generally stayed in only one stance. For some of the best like Scorpion, staying in one stance was the only way to play safe, powerful and effectively. Which is the only way to play when you want to win, there is no need to take unnecessary risks... making you only truly use 10% of the movelist... so many useless moves.

This is why every Virtua Fighter match looks different than the other. If you watch a VF match, they will constantly use different tools the entire match, hell it is rare to see the same combo in one round. Their tactics constantly change, they constantly adapt, etc. Same with Tekken, Soul Calibur and DoA, but their staples are more stronger than VF, but still their matches look different all the time.

Definition: 50/50 Mixup. A 50/50 mixup is when both options, a low and a mid in MK, are both safe and fast. In other games, such as 2d fighters, lows are faster than highs. Highs are generally done by jump-in attacks or overhead attacks, both of which are slower and less safe. Thus when someone is close to you, you normally watch out for lows and block/counter highs when you see it, which is good defense. In Other 3d games, highs and mids are way faster than lows or throws. That means people will use mids to beat crouchers as well as highs to outprioritize mids most of the time. Which means you want to block standing up and only block low/counter when you know a throw or low attack is coming. What these games have is an 80/20 mixup, where one height or two heights, that can be blocked either standing or crouching is more ideal than the other. Obviously the 80 is more safer, but you need the 20 to mixup. MK is a 50/50 mixup with its best characters. Characters have the SAME option for risk/speed/general reward for both you blocking standing up or crouching. This means that there is no way to play a really good defense in MK, it's just random. It's like as if I flipped a coin and you guessed heads or tails. If you guess wrong, you get hit, if you guess right and I'm playing a safe character like Reptile (which cannot be punished), I just flip the coin again. That's not even a fighting game anymore, that's randomness. If you cannot play a smart defense, there is no real need to play smart offense. You just randomly mixup between your low and your mid and you have your entire game done for you.

In MKDA, matches look the same because every character besides Scorpion, Bo Rai Cho, etc. devolve into 50/50 mixups. Then, add the universal tracking and backdash cancelling and you render 80-90% of every character's movelist useless. Because there are no move properties, there is no need to look for moves other then the ones that provide you with the best damage/execution speed/recovery. Because you gotta ask yourself, Sub-Zero has 8 or so lows, only one is usable and the best. Sub-Zero has several mids, only one leads into a decent damage juggle. Every character can make their lows and mids track sidesteppers, every character can Backdash cancel their best moves to be safe. (the crappy characters are the ones that aren't) So what can you really do besides your 50/50 mixup? Is there any REASON at all to use any of the other moves if they do not provide you with anything extra besides execution speed/damage/recovery? No there isn't.

And how random is a game that is only based around 50/50 mixup? Hella random, it's just a guess of mid or low constantly since the animation makes them come out blazing fast and unfluid like other games to allow you to react. The only characters that can break the randomness in MKDA was Scorpion and Bo Rai Cho, but they broke it with cheese rather than real move properties and strategy.

NO ONE WANTS MK TO BECOME ANY OTHER FIGHTER, but we want it to be at least passable as a fighting game with some kind of strategy, usability of moves, and thinking besides simple 50/50 mixups...

As for the people who say you cannot judge a game based on the video released, you people are correct, but you can also point out what it lacks from video released. MKD still does not have counterhits, it still does not have different stuns, the moves still do not give you any sort of advantage besides execution speed/damage/recovery speed, etc. There is still no real ground game, stances still don't seem to be as rounded and the same stances are using the exact same movelist as the previous game with no tweaks. Knowing this and after reading my post on MKDA.. can you sincerely think that MKD will be that dramatically different when all of MKDA's problems are still there..?

Speeding up the game overall with forward dashing and being easily able to push people back amounts to two things.
1. Forward dashing means the back or side tech rolls when you hit the ground are now useless, someone can stick to you like glue and force 50/50 mixups all day on you if there is no real ground game.
2. Breaker system has been revealed. Discussed in this thread on page 4.

And that is MK Primer 101 in a nutshell.

I've created an outline for what MK needs to address on page two of this thread.
Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + MKDAs & MKDs failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Frame Advantag
02/09/2010 03:05 PM EST
its funny to look back and see how this thread started in 2004 and NOTHING HAS CHANGED. they have been through about 4 games and all of them have been the same GARBAGE. mkda garbage, mkd garbage, mka garbage, .mk vs dc GARBAGE. mk4 was the best 3d game and that wasnt too good. but people keep buying that junk, so they never change. MK NEEDS TO GO BACK BEING 2d. 3d games messed up the franchise badly. THATS WHY I HAVE NOT BOUGHT A GAME SINCE MKD. im not stupid, even though i think they might change back to 2d one day. but this is the best thread on this site hands down. thats why street fighter is the king of fighting games to this day and forever more. they understand the concept of fighting mechanics. street fighter blows mk in to little dust particles!!! and mk does not have to have a complex fighting to have a good fighting system. ED BOON SUCKS MORE THAN HOOKERS!!! I HATE HIM. THAT FU%KING STUPID ASS FAGGOT. im tired of blood and violence in mk. they have been outdone in many games. we dont need shock value and mystical stories. WE NEED GOOD GAMEPLAY. but mk has just turned into a god damn GIMMICK. all STYLE and no SUBSTANCE. HAIL STREET FIGHTER the KING OF FIGHTING GAMES FOREVER!!!!!!
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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + Explanation on MKDAs and MKDs lacking fighting system written for everyone.
06/22/2012 04:18 PM EDT
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RE: MK Gameplay Primer + MKDA's & MKD's failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Fram
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