Totally. Scorpion is the Triple H of MK, it's time to move over and let someone better and more interesting (anyone) take the reigns and lead the franchise.

Matt

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Totally. Scorpion is the Triple H of MK, it's time to move over and let someone better and more interesting (anyone) take the reigns and lead the franchise. Matt

totally.. it's not even like Scorpion's got a good plot anymore. He was always coming after Sub-Zero at first. The thing is, back then, Scorpion wasn't even Sub-Zero's top priority. Scorpion was always an afterthought. Sub-Zero's top concern was the assassination of Shang Tsung, elluding the Cyber ninjas, and defeating Quan Chi/ Shinnok.

He's very 1-dimensional and boring. It's all about revenge, and catch phrases.

"I am the Get Over here, you don't wanna play as me."

sorry guys but scorpion in mk 1 and 2..he does not suck hes upper middle tier in mk2 and he doesnt struggle vs any of the characters, well except liu kang...mk1 he was top tier .. in umk3 i thought he was weak.. lower tier..... if ur ever on mame and u play a guy named "wood"..its not me but hes oustanding w/ scorpion..best scorpion player ive ever seen!!!!!!

danadbab Wrote: sorry guys but scorpion in mk 1 and 2..he does not suck hes upper middle tier in mk2 and he doesnt struggle vs any of the characters, well except liu kang...mk1 he was top tier .. in umk3 i thought he was weak.. lower tier..... if ur ever on mame and u play a guy named "wood"..its not me but hes oustanding w/ scorpion..best scorpion player ive ever seen!!!!!!

Scorpion is one of the weakest characters in MK2. Name me a character you think he's better than (other than Reptile) and I will prove you wrong.

Overrated as in, very popular, compared to his actual worth. He's never been a top tier character except Deadly Alliance.

Matt

I can see why people see Scorpion as overrated. He's kind of like Wolverine. Massive fan base and overexposure, but some people just don't get it.

IMO the most overrated character is Sonya. I just don't see the appeal about her. Her storyline is mediorce at best and her character is unoriginal and boring.
As for playability, I don't buy into the "Top Tier/Low Tier/Middle-Lower Tier" shit. Sonya may technically be "top tier," but that doesn't mean I have to like playing as her.

XiahouDun84 Wrote: I can see why people see Scorpion as overrated. He's kind of like Wolverine. Massive fan base and overexposure, but some people just don't get it. IMO the most overrated character is Sonya. I just don't see the appeal about her. Her storyline is mediorce at best and her character is unoriginal and boring. As for playability, I don't buy into the "Top Tier/Low Tier/Middle-Lower Tier" shit. Sonya may technically be "top tier," but that doesn't mean I have to like playing as her.

100% Agreed. I was actually going to say the same thing.

Dark_No0B Wrote: XiahouDun84 Wrote: I can see why people see Scorpion as overrated. He's kind of like Wolverine. Massive fan base and overexposure, but some people just don't get it. IMO the most overrated character is Sonya. I just don't see the appeal about her. Her storyline is mediorce at best and her character is unoriginal and boring. As for playability, I don't buy into the "Top Tier/Low Tier/Middle-Lower Tier" shit. Sonya may technically be "top tier," but that doesn't mean I have to like playing as her. 100% Agreed. I was actually going to say the same thing.

As was I... I think Sonya is very overrated.

Scorpion was never one of may favorites before MKDA, but I think he was always a strong character to use in any game. And although his story has gone a little stale, he is still great to use - that's why I agree with this:

danadbab Wrote: sorry guys but scorpion in mk 1 and 2..he does not suck hes upper middle tier in mk2 and he doesnt struggle vs any of the characters, well except liu kang...mk1 he was top tier .. in umk3 i thought he was weak.. lower tier.....

-I can't wait to fight with him in MKD, to see his teleport punch and two new fatalities...

Scorpion and Sub-Zero are like the mascots for MK. I don't think they are over rated cause if you take into consideration of how many people know Scorpion and Sub-Zero plus with both of them being in pratically every game(Scorpion only missed MK3) they are going to be liked by the majority of people. Most people say they like them before they say they are top tiers and that is not over rated. Now if everyone said they were the strongest/top tiers then they could be considered over rated but that's not the case with them.

I don't really think anyone is over rated with how many characters there are and with so many different people having different tastes. Even some of the worst characters in MK history have a pretty solid fan base.

Now over rated comes to mind when people speak of top tiers. Sonya,Mileena,Jax,Kabal,Ermac and even Human Smoke. They are all very good and are top tiers but not unbeatable or gods like some people act.

I think the point of this thread was to compare the popularity of characters based on their appearance/style/charisma/storyline with how good they actually are in the games. Some characters are just simply better than others, and a handful are better than everyone. In this case, ErmacMK5 felt Scorpion was a good example, I am inclined to agree with him. Then there are underrated characters like Nightwolf and Stryker. People hate them, think they suck, but they really don't.

I meet a lot of people online who think Scorpion is the best and they use him almost exclusively in UMK3, they don't win because they don't really know how to play the game. I ask why don't they just use Human Smoke since he's better, and the answer is usually "Oh I don't really like him." - because he's not Scorpion.

There's all kinds of psychology involved. Someone who thinks Scorpion is the best character playability wise isn't really basing it on playability, they just like Scorpion because of "Get over here!" and cause he has a skull for a head, and perhaps because of his honorable storyline. This kind of player wouldn't be able to beat a good player even if they used a bottom tier character. That's where the overrated concept comes from. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of characters like this, but I don't think any are to the degree of Scorpion.

Anyone who is good enough to realize Scorpion is far from the best in UMK3 for example, isn't looking at the game and it's characters in the same way as someone who does think he's the best, and I think that's what ErmacMK5 was going for here. A skilled player playing another skilled player would never pick Scorpion over Human Smoke because there's no reason to, and that person probably doesn't care much about storyline at all.

Top tier doesn't mean unbeatable, it means that they are the easiest to beat other characters with, using the least amount of effort, therefor making other people try harder if they don't use top tier. It's all about efficiency. Sometimes in tournaments you get massively skilled players who use obscure characters and do well with them, rarely do they win.

Judging characters who are officially top tier as overrated is fine by me, I feel that way about a lot of characters in the VS games, like Strider, Wolverine, Magneto, Storm, etc, because maybe if people took the time to develope other characters they would become good, but that's too much effort for them, which contradicts the definition of top tier. Having to try to make a character top tier when the top tier already exists, defeats the purpose. Unfortunate yes, but it's just the way things are.

Matt

MK2KungBroken Wrote: I think the point of this thread was to compare the popularity of characters based on their appearance/style/charisma/storyline with how good they actually are in the games. Some characters are just simply better than others, and a handful are better than everyone. In this case, ErmacMK5 felt Scorpion was a good example, I am inclined to agree with him. Then there are underrated characters like Nightwolf and Stryker. People hate them, think they suck, but they really don't.

I see what your saying here, but when I said Sonya's overrated, I based it more on the character/story herself and not her playability.
Everyone has their own opinions about who they like to play as and I personally don't like playing as Sonya. I don't find her fun to use. I'll admit I was good with her in MK4 and MK:DA, but I still didn't enjoy myself.
Now I'll admit, a lot of that has to do with her character/story. I don't like Sonya as a character. Never have, never will. And when I say she's overrated it's because I always see Sonya fans praise how "original" she is. And she isn't. I've seen lot's of movies and I read lots of comics and Sonya is nothing new. She's just another "tough chick." But that's not what bothers me. What bothers me the most is that she brings nothing new to the "tough chick" table. She's a cliche. Typical.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: I meet a lot of people online who think Scorpion is the best and they use him almost exclusively in UMK3, they don't win because they don't really know how to play the game. I ask why don't they just use Human Smoke since he's better, and the answer is usually "Oh I don't really like him." - because he's not Scorpion. There's all kinds of psychology involved. Someone who thinks Scorpion is the best character playability wise isn't really basing it on playability, they just like Scorpion because of "Get over here!" and cause he has a skull for a head, and perhaps because of his honorable storyline. This kind of player wouldn't be able to beat a good player even if they used a bottom tier character. That's where the overrated concept comes from. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of characters like this, but I don't think any are to the degree of Scorpion.

This leads to the debate over what's more important about Mortal Kombat: story or gameplay. The thing is, until MK:DA, the only major differense between all the characters' playability was their special moves. Besides that, it was all High Punch, Low Punch. High Kick, Low Kick. There was no major difference in indivual speed or defence. You could play and master just about anyone. So with that in mind, how do you choose your favorite character? Their story/personality. You make a good point when someone chooses Scorpion over Smoke or vice versa. They're almost exactly the same except for their story.
And as you say, there are many people who pick Scorpion without really knowing how to play. More often than not, they do this because Scorpion and/or Sub-Zero are the best known players. And as you say, a skilled player will often beat them with ease with just about any character. Does this make Scorpion or Sub-Zero overrated? Not really. That player was just new and/or just an amateur. They're are many other skilled people who have played MK for years and know how to use Scorpion and Sub-Zero properly.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Anyone who is good enough to realize Scorpion is far from the best in UMK3 for example, isn't looking at the game and it's characters in the same way as someone who does think he's the best, and I think that's what ErmacMK5 was going for here. A skilled player playing another skilled player would never pick Scorpion over Human Smoke because there's no reason to, and that person probably doesn't care much about storyline at all. Top tier doesn't mean unbeatable, it means that they are the easiest to beat other characters with, using the least amount of effort, therefor making other people try harder if they don't use top tier. It's all about efficiency. Sometimes in tournaments you get massively skilled players who use obscure characters and do well with them, rarely do they win.

As I said in my post, I don't buy into that "Top Tier" shit. Whenever I here an explanation for what makes a character "Top Tier" I get a long description about special moves. I for one, like to believe there's more to what makes a character good than how many special moves they have and how fast a player can do them.
If that were the case, then I'd say Liu Kang was the best fighter ever because of his fireballs and flying kick and how easy they all were to pull off.
I like to consider myself a skilled MK player. I've played MK since the beginning. I know the characters and they're moves. However, when I'd play my cousin, who is also a skilled MK player, in MK2, he could beat me with Scorpion, who is supposedly "Low Tier," more often than not.
There's an old saying, "Know thy enemy." If you're fighting a character and you know what to expect from them and your ready to block and counter, I think you can beat anyone with anyone. Mileena is supposedly "Top Tier" in MK2. I agree, she's very good. She has fast moves and some are powerful. However, I could beat skilled Mileena players because I knew Mileena is primarily an offensive character and I should be ready to block fast.
The "Top Tier" thing becomes more of a factor in MK:DA where there's more emphasis on fighting styles, counters, and combos and not just launching an endless barrage of special attacks.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Judging characters who are officially top tier as overrated is fine by me, I feel that way about a lot of characters in the VS games, like Strider, Wolverine, Magneto, Storm, etc, because maybe if people took the time to develope other characters they would become good, but that's too much effort for them, which contradicts the definition of top tier. Having to try to make a character top tier when the top tier already exists, defeats the purpose. Unfortunate yes, but it's just the way things are.

I agree with this. Something I've noticed about the VS games is people will choose Strider or Hayato because the CPU is hard with them and expect to be invincible. Then they'll disreagrd a character like Dr. Doom because he's slow and may not be effective close range. However, these players fail to realize that Doom is a massively powerful defensive fighter who can not only keep opponents at bay, but he can also take withstand more damage than many other characters. These same people often get demolished very easily.
This holds true in MK:DA as well. People dismiss Kitana as a shitty fighter not realizing her strength is in her defensive attacks.

There is another saying "Talk is cheap."

I understand how you feel about Sonya, I don't like her either, she is definitely a cliche character like Chun Li was in SF2, Sindel on the other hand I like a lot, and on top of that she's a pretty good character.

The difference between characters is very fine. There are nuances for everyone in every classic game, the most different to least different would be UMK3, MK2, MK1, MK4. All characters can use their moves to do the same things, but you have to know the slight differences here and there. Some characters have bettern HKs, roundhouses, uppercuts, sweeps, ducking LKs, jump kicks, jump punches, than others. Aside from their special moves, these things are also influential to gameplay.

The reason I brought the picking Scorpion over Human Smoke thing wasn't because their difference was storyline, it's the difference in the actual character. Smoke's pop up combo alone makes him 100 times better than Scorpion, but some people don't realize that this is helpful, because like you said they might be new to the game, but chances are if they like Scorpion they aren't, they just like Scorpion more than Smoke because Scorpion is their favorite character, and that's why he's overrated. The damage factor is the main reason to pick Human Smoke over Scorpion, he has some complicated, but useful corner combos that lead to 75%. People will pick Scorpion because they like him, and not get good enough at the game to realize he's not as good Smoke. It's more than special moves, this has been debated before.

When you're playing against Kabal, you might be playing against his spin, but that person needs to know how to set it up, and when to do it, and it's still possible to knock him out of it, even throw him out of it, tonight I threw someone out of Sonya's leg grab with Sub-zero. If the Kabal player can't get successful spins, they need to know the basics and the properties for Kabal's basic moves. He has average everything except his roundhouse, which is excellent anti air. A character like Sindel or Jax who have bad roundhouses wouldn't use them for anti air because chances are it will be snuffed due to how close it is to them. Jax however has a fast sweep, Kano's I believe is the fastest, and Sonya's is up there too. Liu Kang has the best anti air roundhouse, Kung Lao's is also very good. The male ninjas have a decent anti air roundhouse, the female ninjas have an awesome run under anti air roundhouse, but not normal anti air. Kung Lao has a shitty uppercut, while Sub-zero's is awesome. Stryker ducks extremely low so most rub jabs miss him, and for some reason his run jabs miss a lot of people. Nightwolf's stomp hits people ducking which helps out his Shoulder Tackle/combo lockdown and change up. Sheeva's roundhouse has extreme range but it's not always a great thing. Just some examples of normals. Specials are important, but not the only thing. If you rely on specials, you will lose.

"Know thyself"

Some people may have played a in the arcades, lost with Scorpion and eventually said "I need to pick someone better if I want to win." I don't see any reason to play these games other than to achieve victory, whether it's friendly play with buddies, or against strangers in the arcade, you aren't playing to lose. Playing the CPU is pointless and sad. Anyone who likes MK just for the story, or the graphics, sounds, fatalities, etc, shouldn't be playing against people, because that aspect is almost introverted.

Matt

Scorpion and Sub are definitly the most overated.
I played many german players, and its a shame but there are 90% noobs that even dont know all the special moves, combos lol. (Dont talk about tactics they even dont know what that is)

And yeah, they taking Scorpion all over, and Sub.
I beat one guy about 30 rounds, via random select, he was nothing special everyone could beat him who knows really the game.
But he took Scorpion all over.
He used the Spear and sometimes the Telepunch.
He died like a fly every round, but he think "Scorp is the best" and played again and again with him.
Many people think so.
The same with Sub, most people think the Iceshot is a great Special, that makes Sub so strong but actually against a good player it will hit very less, the ground Ice and sliding playing the bigger role.

The most overrated player in MK3/UMK3 is Cyrax I think, many people think they are good because he knows the 6 hit combo with him and using permanent the Net move lol.

You guys and your tiers. Don't you realize they are not real, that they are only self made cages you lock yourselves in? Think about it, it is not about the compliled code, it's about you as a player.

KillerMiller Wrote: The most overrated player in MK3/UMK3 is Cyrax I think, many people think they are good because he knows the 6 hit combo with him and using permanent the Net move lol.

Totally. Cyrax is a fail safe to people who beat scrubs and don't know what to do against real players. The only reason they use him is because of the massive hit box for the net. You can throw it out anytime someone is close and tries to attack and it's a free combo. I think in Ultimate they should have did something like with Scorpion's spear in all the games, when the net connects after Cyrax is hit (jump kick for net trade), or if he's hit after it connects with something stray (smart missile, return ninja star) the net should break. When you hit Scorpion at the same time as the spear hits you, or after, he loses control, the spear flickers and disappears, but does the damage of the spear. I use to use this tactic all the time with him if I got him on a random, let the person run in and take a knee lift for 42% 7 hit combo with the JK starter. The problem is, when the person resorts to Cyrax, you can expect this strategy and use it against them. Set up scenarios where they think the net will be effective and ultimately backfire on them. Cyrax's bombs are a favorite move too for lamers, they always think they are fool proof. I usually let them do like one juggle combo to get their jollies and then overwhelm them with attacks the normal 'Rax strats won't work against. Cyrax can be a good, fun character, but he's too complicated to be worth it to the average player.

Matt

ErmacMk5 Wrote: danadbab Wrote: sorry guys but scorpion in mk 1 and 2..he does not suck hes upper middle tier in mk2 and he doesnt struggle vs any of the characters, well except liu kang...mk1 he was top tier .. in umk3 i thought he was weak.. lower tier..... if ur ever on mame and u play a guy named "wood"..its not me but hes oustanding w/ scorpion..best scorpion player ive ever seen!!!!!! Scorpion is one of the weakest characters in MK2. Name me a character you think he's better than (other than Reptile) and I will prove you wrong.

beter then mileena..yep i said it mileena.. sub-zero,reptile of course,shang tsung,even vs(as in both have good chance of winning) johnny cage, raiden,kung lao, kitana.. but god awful vs jax,liu kang...theres ur answer and as soon as u get that controller.. i hope u can prove me wrong.. but note my scorpion is not that great, but good when u finally get the mame working.. a guy named wood is oustanding w/ him and a guy named mk2 prince is good w/ him.. u'll play them soon i get u hooked up......then u better post it here..either laughing at me or bowing down loololo.. jk



kunglaobroken.. i didnt say scorpion is good in umk3 i said he sucked.. and yes nightwolf is top tier in umk3 and stryker is close...

I wasn't talking about you specifically, I was talking in general, a lot of people just pick Scorpion because they think he's cool, he has a containment move, and a teleport.

Matt

i fall into i pick scorpion because hes my favourite rather than picking the character that i can kick the most ass with if i learn their moves -- i used to be unbeatable with kabal on MK3 Genesis against my friends, i could pull off all these crazy combos just with the cheesy 3 button controller.. but nowadays when i sit down to play i usually pick scorpion just because of nostalgia.. scorpion & subzero really were the characters that caught your eye in MK1 & MK2.. and then in MK3 everyone hated that there was no scorpion including boon himself, so they made UMK3 ... im not a hardcore MK player, not anymore, and most people that ive played through the years werent either, but with mid-range players like us, scorpion was usually one of the best... in MKII his mid-air throw & mid-air teleport punch were the ones that got people everytime.. the scissor leg takedown was probably the worst move ever invented though.. and spear was always a great counter move

hehe the takedown was fun though... when it worked, cause you usually laughed really hard because it worked. I kinda miss that move now.

I would say Scorpion just because there was always a lot of hype surrounding him and Sub Zero and I just never saw all the value in him. His storyline was interesting up until the end of MK2 and his abilities were kinda cool, but nothing spectacular.

I think Scorpion is slightly overrated, agreed. Never a truly top-tier character until MKDA, and his storyline hasn't expanded beoynd "Get revenge on ____", except in UMK3-T, where he was just sort of there.

Sub-Zero has improved in recent years, I believe. I don't think he's overrated at all. Perhaps he may have been poor during MKII, but MK3-T saw some improvement, MK4 even more so, and while slightly weaker during MKDA, still great to play as. And his storyline has never failed to impress me.


Now, my vote for most overrated goes to Noob Saibot. Think about it:

MK2: Secret character, Scorp's spear, no storyline.

MK3: Secret character, no special moves. No stryline.

UMK3: Same.

MKT: His own moves, great. Kinda cheap block disabler, but at leats it's original. And we find out he's Shinnok's loyal servant, who has been watching teh fights, and told to ally with Kahn. great.

MK4-G: Shares Tanya's fireball, and Teleport slam with Reiko (despite it being his originally). No fatalities. No official storyline, or ending. We just sort of assume he's still working for Shinnok.

MKTE: Now apparently working for Kahn, Kills Goro. I haven't played TE, so I don't know his moves, but I know he shares Scorpion's fighting styles.


IMO, Saibot is completely undeserving of the psychotic amount of popularity he has. He's been nothing but a lapdog with no development for a very long time, and we didn't even know what he was doing until MKT.

Killing Goro is a step in the right direction for him, though. I hope for big things from him in MKD.

Shadaloo Wrote: I think Scorpion is slightly overrated, agreed. Never a truly top-tier character until MKDA, and his storyline hasn't expanded beoynd "Get revenge on ____", except in UMK3-T, where he was just sort of there. Sub-Zero has improved in recent years, I believe. I don't think he's overrated at all. Perhaps he may have been poor during MKII, but MK3-T saw some improvement, MK4 even more so, and while slightly weaker during MKDA, still great to play as. And his storyline has never failed to impress me. Now, my vote for most overrated goes to Noob Saibot. Think about it: MK2: Secret character, Scorp's spear, no storyline. MK3: Secret character, no special moves. No stryline. UMK3: Same. MKT: His own moves, great. Kinda cheap block disabler, but at leats it's original. And we find out he's Shinnok's loyal servant, who has been watching teh fights, and told to ally with Kahn. great. MK4-G: Shares Tanya's fireball, and Teleport slam with Reiko (despite it being his originally). No fatalities. No official storyline, or ending. We just sort of assume he's still working for Shinnok. MKTE: Now apparently working for Kahn, Kills Goro. I haven't played TE, so I don't know his moves, but I know he shares Scorpion's fighting styles. IMO, Saibot is completely undeserving of the psychotic amount of popularity he has. He's been nothing but a lapdog with no development for a very long time, and we didn't even know what he was doing until MKT. Killing Goro is a step in the right direction for him, though. I hope for big things from him in MKD.

I think you speak much truth about Scorpion, and I agree that Sub Zero is not really overrated especially when he hit MK3 and became a monster of a character.

Honestly, after reading what you typed, I would switch my vote to Noob because I didn't even consider him when I was thinking of characters the first time. There was always a big hooplah about him. He was in so many of the games, he was so lacking in originality, storyline, or even enjoyment. Then when they finally gave him some unique stuff in UMK3/MKT, he sucked. I hate the special moves they gave him, they are terrible and there was no thought behind them IMO.

So, my vote has changed to Noob. Too lackluster a character for him to even come to mind.

Easily Saibot. His hype really annoys me. He seems to be one of the most beloved characters but he is just such a halfassed thrown together character. Sometimes it seems like being "mysterious" is all you need to please people. Like there are those who seriously would enjoy a game with a roster of 20 ninjas. The worst part is he isn't even REALLY "mysterious" or "cryptic". He just isn't established or built up at all. It's not like they wrote this really interesting back story and are slowly adding things in and keeping you hooked, they're just vague about his motivations because they're too lazy to write a decent story for him.