I actually never used reversals, but they were fun! Powerups were cool.
Nitaras was the best, Sonya and Kung Lao also had powerful ones.

SETI1 Wrote: Well, it is better to have breakers than to have none. I totally agreed with you bleed an all aspects, but there are some things i disagree. I dont think taht in real life you could always escape from a combat. For example in BOXE the escape is always the same with the weakest guy when he grab the opponent. Counting 3 it's a good idea Having animations for all characters where good but it's no harm to have the same. MK never be a REAL fighting game And Teken and DOA SC and VF have their own "impossible" movements, like neck break, hit by weapons and survive, super moves, etc. And they are considered "real games". They are more realistic not REAL. So, many things in gameplay lacks, but the breakers limited to 3 seems to be equilibrated.

About the realism, that's what I was saying, I guess you miss understood me.
The breaker system had to be limited because they probably know how cheap it is. I wouldn't doubt that it's the reason for the 3 use limit.
I don't understand what you mean about the boxers hold.
In boxing, they can do the hold as many times as they want, they don't have a limit.
If they have a boxer in a game, for example Steve fox in Tekken 4. He can do that same hold as many times as you want.
It's a part of his strategy and he shouldn't be handicapped by having it limited to a set number.
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Your boxer comment gave me an idea.
The boxer hold could be used like a reversal.
When you are blocking, you could press >+2+4 to grab the opponent.
When you grab the opponent, you have a set number of options.
1= You can move them like the position change move from Tekken 4. It leaves the opponent open for a few frames after the push, and you can place the opponent in like with a death trap.
2= You can punch them multiple times.
3= You could throw them, do a body slam or a trip.
I'd be using this move a lot, I'd suck if I could only use it 3 times wouldn't it?

Bleed Wrote: Zebron Wrote: Bleed Wrote: The only thing that I see good about how they designed the breaker is that it will save you from a death trap during a combo. That reminds me of something that really doesn't sit well with me about the breakers. If you're desperately trying to fight your way out of a death trap and you try a combo (to push your opponent back) and the other guy simply presses forward+block, BAM! Into the trap you go. Have you seen the video where Scorpion "breakers" Dairou right off the edge of the Falling Cliff? That will be way too easy to do. There you go....another problem with the design. There is just too much wrong with it.

Then we have to decide if it is safe to start a combo or not, we have too look to the strategic side of the game.
But i must admit it is a cheap movment.
edit: I like the idea of a move can knock you out into the death trap. I never liked the way you can stand at the edge of the figthing arena and not fall on the other fighting games.
In real life if you are in a edge of something and if you're pushed or hited you fall...

Yes, we can see it in severall ways if 3 breakers could be too little or if they only be there to add an extra strategic feel to the game.
Time will tell.
P.S.: You have great ideas that should be implemented in the game.
edit: The Boxe thing i was trying to say is: if the guy who is being hold could be hitting the other guy, the other probably wont have the strenght to hold him anymore (well, i think) and so he is limited to his strenght. I hope i can make my point of view...

SETI1 Wrote: Bleed Wrote: Zebron Wrote: Bleed Wrote: The only thing that I see good about how they designed the breaker is that it will save you from a death trap during a combo. That reminds me of something that really doesn't sit well with me about the breakers. If you're desperately trying to fight your way out of a death trap and you try a combo (to push your opponent back) and the other guy simply presses forward+block, BAM! Into the trap you go. Have you seen the video where Scorpion "breakers" Dairou right off the edge of the Falling Cliff? That will be way too easy to do. There you go....another problem with the design. There is just too much wrong with it. Then we have to decide if it is safe to start a combo or not, we have too look to the strategic side of the game. But i must admit it is a cheap movment. edit: I like the idea of a move can knock you out into the death trap. I never liked the way you can stand at the edge of the figthing arena and not fall on the other fighting games. In real life if you are in a edge of something and if you're pushed or hited you fall...

ooooooh yeah, stamina could definitely have something to do with it.
Here is a way to put that in to the mix.
when you are grabbed, in the first 2-3 frames of the grab animation when the guy puts his arms forward, if you tap 2 or 4 you can do a throw escape like in Tekken 4.
If you miss the throw escape, then you can mash the buttons as fast as possible to get your self loose.
Remember how you get out of a hold throw in street fighter. Like when Dalsim starts punching you in the head, you have to mash the buttons real fast to get away from him.
That could be stamina right there.
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Another way to do it is to use a stamina meter.
When you are hit, or when you attack too much, the meter can go down.
If it's almost full to full, you can block easy. You can block a combo every 1-2 hits while getting hit.
If it's like half way you have a harder time blocking. You can block every 2-3 hits
If it's almost empty, you can't break out of a combo. You eat the entire combo like in MKDA.
The stamina meter can effect other moves like extra long combos can't be done.
More moves can stun you.
etc.
What do you think?

Dammit Bleed, while reading through this thread i had stuff I was going to post in my head but each time you spoke what I would have spoken. I totally agree with everything you said. Gathering from all the points you listed it seems, just like me, you are a fan of how impresive Namco was able to make fighting style intensive system for their fighting games (Soul edge series and Tekken ).

I am happy they took those crappy power ups reversals, they looked boring, annoying, and were useless as hell. These combo breakers could have been better if each person had their own way of escaping. I mean, not everybody can parry thesame way especially when they have different fighting styles even if they wanted everyone to be able to break out of combos. The combo breakers have potential but its good the way it is at the moment. All I was gonna type has already been typed by bleed way better than I could have put it.

Bleed Wrote: The breaker is a great idea but they designed it badly. I can make a list of all the stuff that's wrong with it instantly off the top of my head. 1 = Every character has 1 breaker animation, and every character uses the same punch. Not every fighter should have breakers or reversals, it should depend on their style, not be a generic thing like what they did. There could even be different ways for characters to do that stuff, not just the one way. 2 = You can break out of a juggle with the same punch animation you do when standing. ????? It looks like a glitch. 3 = It's limited to 3 breakers, I'm not sure if it's 3 per round, or per match. But still it should not be limited at all if designed well. 4 = They are too easy to do because you just tap >+Blk while blocking or while being hit. I'm not sure if it's limited to High and Med attacks, or if it's for H,M and L.. I hope it's not H,M,L. 5 = You have no recovery frame disadvantage on a failed break. This is because there are no miss animations in the first place. It's 100% safe to try a breaker from the looks of it, if you miss you are still safe. 6 = Breakers cause 0% damage. 7 = The only breaker attack you have is a knock down hit that 1 does no damage and you can't follow up with anything. It's better to just block then attack like in MKDA, making the breakers near worthless. 8 = Visually and technically it's boring. They should have done a lot more stuff and been more creative with it. They could have used thing's like throws, parries, auto combos, super natural powers, chain throws, stun hit's, pop ups, escapes, counter stances like Kilik's d,f,N, moves with super armor, moves with an auto parry like lion's d,b+P in VF4......etc. But all they did was the same punch for everybody. ?????? 9 = You can break out of a combo style throw way too easy. You can do it late in the throw making them almost worthless because they will get broken every time. All you have to do is mash >+Blk as fast as you can when they grab you. Basically, it's a bad design that looks like it was slapped together with little though. They could have done something a lot better. I can think of something way better than that on the spot. A lot of that stuff is just common sense.

I agree 100%

he he...
I wonder what's gonna happen with MK7.
Now that there are posts about this kind of thing all the time.
Are they gonna focus on game play now???
Or more mini games???
I hope they do both, take an extra 6 months or a year if they need it.
It's too bad they are always rushed by Midway. They have to release a new game every year right?
I think the Tekken developers take 2 years per game.
I'll say this though, the MK team did a hell of a lot of work for 1 year.
I have to give them props on that.

I hope you can block the breakers since you wont be attacking theres nothing to breaker.
That way if your in front of a death trap and blocking you cant get knocked in with one.

amen

Bleed you know exactly how to make the gameplay should work.

I actually used reversals alot! I didn't use Niejins or power ups or taunts, but I did use reversals. They were fun to use and when used with the right kombo, you could finish you're opponent.

Yeah... The only reason my friend was so good with Drahmin was that goddamn Neijin thing. Never touched the things myself. The combo breakers will be a nice touch, I think.

I like your signature and avatar Tanya the Destroyer.
I never used Sonya's Neijin, it took to much time and I never really saw a difference. butg you know Sub-Zeros kick where he sticks his leg up and your opponent just flies up and lands back down. He used to keep doing that to me until he won. Then I learned the reversal technique and he couldn't beat me. Not even when he impaled me, he still lost. I used the Reversal and then hit him a good few times with Sonya's War fare kombo.