what part dont u see. lag effects gameplay.

when a person becomes 100% safe, and your not, its starting with 1/2 power.

mav uses the same service i do,,, certain peoples connection just do not match up at all.

mka just plays like complete shit online, and thats the bottom line. sure its fun, sure u will get fustrated about the shitty lag, sure u will lose lots of games cause of it, and thats why u cant take the game serious.

when u cant block and counter the same way the person u are fighting, than there is no way to call those game fair.

as check says fuck online,,, offline games are the only things that count.


p.s Mav our connection was horrible, those parrys should not come off instantly, the recover is to fast... which is also why u could avoid half my wake ups.

Interesting assessment Red. I always thought we had a good connection. Maybe not so good on your end from what i am hearing. I didnt feel particularly extra safe with ANYTHING.

@Trax....for me there are few things that get in my way from winning some series

1. I am a poor closer - What I mean is that I often have my opponent almost beat but dont but him away. I noticed this happened alot with MKF

2. You mentioned big combos...well, I am understanding that big combos arent all that important, breakers and aggression sometime nulllify them

3. Adjusting to the opponent connection - one some days I do it other times not. when i realize what an opponent can do that I cant I need to adjust and not keep playin the same way.

Good points Maverick! I particularly like the third one.

Everytime I play on NTSC I have to deal with the fact that my aerial kombat play just won't work. I deal with that now by staying firmly on the ground. That way I don't waste my time trying something that won't work. It sucks but that's just the way it is. Until everyone in the world gets to have a T3 connection then online gameplay will be drastically different to offline. That's just the way it is and I for one have to deal with it and get on with the game rather than bitch about connection.

So Red, before you go further by making the whole topic about lag, try and read the points I've made and see that they're not so much about lag. Theose points are more about TOTAL gameplay whether it being online or offline. If you're online, you have to change to tactics accordingly and if you're offline you know what needs doing to make the most of what you've got. That's where my third point comes in.

Trax

You could just cheat like I do and always win....



FEAR THE MAGIC MAN

1) To win... Be a whore and ruthless. Whatever it takes.

2) You can be like Quest and be too nice, in other words Pu$$y. I mean why do I feel bad when I get a flawless victory? If that isn't the most retarded thing, I don't understand because in real life I get made if I don't beat my player beyond recognition. However, online I am skeptic to 33 and A/C just b/c of those people that don't like it. I think for now on I am going to change my frame of mind and act like everyone one on MK has molested me before. That’s right, bring it pedophiles!

Quest...that is the worst way to play for me. When I play with anger, rage, or fear...i become overly aggressive and predictable. Its best to observe your opponent and press the fight. Notice your own patterns and remember how what you did in a previous situation, so when you get there again you either do something different...or anticipate your opponent doing something different and doing the same thing.

You're right in your original post, Trax. The "Player A, Player B, Player C" analogy has been brought up before by myself, Eazy, and others. That's where my comment "MK Circle of Life" came from. MeSoFly said that when this sort of thing was brought up.

That analogy is definitely true in this game. All of your points are valid as to why this is. However, there shouldn't be SUCH a discrepency in the results of fights between (insert given players). The reason that such a discrepency exists is because of lag. Everybody is probably tired of Red bringing it up; but it is THE biggest factor in play. I can't speak for all, but I know for myself, I am mostly on the wrong end of that shit.

I think Red brings it up so much because most people just discard what he says or attempt to solve his problem by saying now cliché phrases like "Adapt" or "Adjust". Thing is, and I've said this before, you can only adapt so much.

For example: Last night when playing MKF30. Kabal/Mavado's Hookswords was part of his roster. You know what I've noticed about people choose Hookswords as one of their best? They're extremely safe. Most noticeably after U+2, but other things as well. Being very safe doesn't just mean that they can block after a missed attack. For example, if MKF connected an U+2 on me at mid-screen, he could walk up on me and throw. I can't jump away. Even if he doesn't throw, I can't jump away from his next attack nor can I parry because he is attacking me (and making contact) before my animation is finished from the U+2 I just ate.

Also, (vs. Eazy for example) if Kabal lands a 4 in Hookswords (plant) at mid-screen, Eazy can always walk up and 50/50 me with U+2 or another 4. It doesn't land every time. But if the 50/50 doesn't land, it's because I guessed right and blocked it (you know because you instantly go from the ground into your block animation). Now, I've done the same thing right back to Eazy during the same matches (and others as well). And I far too often see myself do the following...

I'll plant them with 4 at midscreen. I can walk up fast enough to land an U+4 while they're on the ground and they can block low or eat it. BUT, I cannot walk up and 4 again. It's not bad that I'm not landing it. It's bad that it doesn't even register. Even if they're blocking correct, it just show them blocking, take that minimal block damage, etc... But I completely wiff every time I throw it out which always leads to me eating a (2) wakeup.

So how does that work? 4 is a mid. If I plant and walk up, they're either blocking high or blocking low. So if I throw out a 4, I should either land it, or it should register on block. But like I said, I wiff completely. It's like I'm not close enough actually land it, which is what I believe it actually is.

Well, I just noticed I've written a whole lot of bullshit about this. And this is just ONE example. There's far too much to write about this and all the examples (jumping, glitches, free wakeups, FT's, etc.). The bottom line, though, is that lag is probably the biggest factor affecting the main topic of this thread. So don't automatically dismiss what Red says about it and don't try to compromise him with those cliché phrases. To be honest most probably have know idea what he experiences because most of you have it better than me, and I have it better than Red.

Nice input Chaos.

I'm by no means dismissing Red's opinion on lag. However, I don't think it is the biggest factor in deciding who wins a series of let's say first to 20 whereby you use a character no more than twice. That way you get a good measure of those factors I've mentioned.

I'm just trying to move away from the lag argument and go beyond just what we see on the screen but how our mind operates during gameplay.

Use Quest's and Mav's response as examples. They've both been able to identify what they think could make them better players based on what they can control. I think that's a start. Saying I lost a series or I'm not the best player because of lag seems to me to be just an excuse.

If we were to be locked in a pig auditorium full of MKA arcades (offline), I'm almost certain that the tier list we have online is still going to be maintained. I judge this by purely looking at how each of us utilize core elements and mechanics of the game rather than performing lag enhanced tricks with Hookswords, Sareena or Drahmin.

Trax

Of course good post Gtrax! I forgot to say that in my above post.

@mav
I am finally starting to get that concept a little bit. I am starting to be a little bit more patient, however one of my main problems is this... How do I know what to counter with? For instance I know someone is going to try to press A for instance yet I block it, they are going to press A again I block it, they press A again I block and counter and I somehow I get punished. A good one for me is one someone like easy is just jumping all over. I have no idea how to counter that b/c everytime someones lands and I sidestep it perfectly and go to throw I get parried. So for people that jump a lot I try to use Shinnok. I don't see how I am getting parried if I am timing this right??

problem is you cheat and still can't win

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I understand you want to move away from lag. But you can't. How people's mind's operate is going to be completely different from one to another because everybody is basically playing a different game. For example (just because I've heard your conn isn't too great), if we played; what I can control is going to be different from what you can control. So you can control your offense towards me but since I can't counter I'll have to control myself to be patient and let you do it attack several times until a perfect situation occurs. So if you continue to attack safely and never have a mind-lapse, and I never have a mind-lapse and try to counter (thus leaving myself open to be attacked); well then we've both played perfectly... and you win. (Just an example, it's hardly ever that simple)

And I must disagree with you about your opinions of an "Offline Tier List". For one; some things will work better offline for some people. For example; offline, I can whore Sareena's Knives like Bobby and Bone do online. I've messed around a lot and I can consistently toss 15-20 knives without taking a step. Online, most of the time, I can throw 2. Maybe 3.

At the same token, some things won't work for some people offline. Example (cuz he's fresh on my mind); MKF does a lot worse offline, in my opinion. Almost all Hooksword users would be worse, guys who can teleport and freeze you would be worse, safe ground-pounders would be worse, parry-whores would be worse, and all aspects of jumpers wouldn't be as effective either.

A lot of the Tier List would be roughly the same. But also, a lot (if not most) of the Tier List would change. I happen to think there would be a few rather drastic changes as well as many that most wouldn't expect.

I'd have to disagree with you there ^^ I can easily say the same thing about you man, offline nobody has ever seen anyone play so we don't know as far as "skill offline" but with no lag there I know I'd do better offline against you and eazy, I'm sure you'd still use 33, AC like you did last night with the mavado since it's easy as pie offline but at least the lag will be gone.

I only used Mavado and Kabal to counter your connection against mine, it was bad for me as well believe me...when I'm attacking you and you some how wind up behind me, yeah...to call that lag would be an understatement.

It was also the first time you beat me so props for that but I also can't remember our past matches in MKA/MKD that bad connection wise, it's the game online. Screw this persons online service or that...Red always blamed that for his loses, bottom line if you have a high speed MOST of the time you should be good to go with mav we connected much better and he was able to counter me most of the time just like I was him. The closest match we had regardless though was his Sub-Zero against my Dairou.

My general view on the online topic in MKA Lag fucks up everyone at some point in this game, unless you play someone like giga who disconnects from everyone after 10 seconds, either adapt to who you're playing once you become familiar with their connection despite if you like it or not or don't play online.

I'm positive as far as Chaos goes I'd do better much, if I played him offline since I've beaten him before every time we played before yesterday.

Eazy, same thing. In MKD he had tons of trouble with me, ask him but in MKA he does better. Now is it because of the game being a bit different then MKD or lag? who knows but I will say the lag definitely doesn't hurt his case.

Alexie I've beaten in this game, he's beaten me but the connection seemed pretty good for the most part, same with mastermalone and these guys live farther. That might play a factor as well, it may not but seriously lag happens to everyone and everyone has it, it's different for everyone also.

Example, bobby I've connected with good the past few times we played compared to before where for others here he's a bad connection.

MKA plays not that great online to begin with but the experience with every player is apparently different for some compared to others.

MKF, post these vids. I want to see what you're talking about. Stop trying to soften the blow by saying "first time he beat me" and "I beat him every other time before that". We've played one time before yesterday when the game first came out. It was less than 10 games total, at that.

For the record, I don't think you'll ever play me again.

I meant it for MK in general, in MKD we played quite a few times and I won every time, with no lag like in this game, in MKA we played 2 times. I won one and you one this time besides I've could have taken into account what you said in the other thread about not being crazy about the match up or whatever given the connection as oppose to how I play? What was that about? But you also again have to realize I've hardly seen you on for good reason when I go on, you're not. Last night seemed to be an exception with you and mav, you guys know when I go on, you also could have sent me a FR if you wanted me "that badly" in matches man. I'll admit I go on really late but everyone here knows that by now. I work during the day and go on late at night.

I didn't mean to offend you or anything I was just listing past facts til now. I never post the scores unless I lose or feel I have a reason to(unlike some others on here) who always post and brag about score constantly...

But anyway, I have no problem playing you again but given how you felt about the connection which I can't say I blame ya since it was shitty for me also I'm surprised you'd want to.

Hey man I said it before, if I'm on and I see ya or anyone I'm game otherwise.

@ Quest...a counter doesnt always mean you block. A counter may mean parry but often a poke.

@Chaos. wow dude you dropped some knowledge. In my fight with MKF in multiple fights he was able to walk up and throw me when I tapped block and dashed back....somehow he was still able to get it. I agree I think the tiers would change a bit if we played offline. The moves that we use would be WAY different. In some fights I dont use air kombat at all because I dont always land it. offline I land it EVERY time. I think if we played offline Groy would be the best. He doesnt seem particularly safe and he doesnt use 33 or things that cant be done offline. Its weird cuz you are pointing things out in my experience with MKF that I didnt realize until know. He doesnt use 33, AC, jumpkicks and alot of other stuff that makes lag as noticeable to me.

I will say this though. The game is imperfect. But to me that simulates a real fight. Some peeps have quicker jabs than others....all fighters...like all connections arent created equal. So as long as you realize you are facing your opponent and his connection then it is what it is and its still good comp. Which despite all my shit talking is all i am really interested in.

I didn't say I didn't like the match up. We never play. So you could pick whoever you wanted, I didn't care. I don't care how you play either. That's not what I was saying. All I was saying is that I can see why you pick the roster you do. If you're safe like that against everyone, I can see that being an effective roster. I was able to get around it, but I can see how your safeness combined with that roster is effective against most. That's all.

Also, don't bring up MKD. Actually, don't bring up any other game. Not to be a dick, but I think all would agree with me that it's lame when you do that. I'll look for you.

try doing it when you think it's a split second too early. it's like your kicking the guys feet which are high in the air behind his head during the plant animation. you might be surprised at the result.

same thing with subby after a back 1 with his sword, you can immediately pop up after that (nice and safe either way)

Yeah, Eazy. I know what you're talking about. I noticed all that a while back when I was messing with Raiden's F+1. I was only mentioning that it seems that when I play some guys that they'll take 1 or 2 steps and follow up after a plant whereas I'll need 3 steps (or whatever the number is).

I don't know what it is, but I've always just thought it's the same thing that makes your opponent appear further away from you than he really is on his screen.

That's exactly what it's all about. It's about who can handle all these inconsistent stuff i.e Lag and crazy tactics.

Also I think MKD should never be compared with MKA. They are totally different. So whatever happened in MKD should now be nothing but history. Trax

I agree with chaos 100%

Sometimes i feel like i have a great advantage.

I played quest like 20+ games and i felt like i had a HUGE advantage.

other times like jorge jov...i feel like i'm in slow motion...also with krazie.

I would love to think it is all about skill and in the back of my mind i try not to contribute loses to lag. I say to my self "they are only human" and then i fight. But i think we all know the real truth...Easy is an alien...

no jk...but really lag has ALOT to do with it.

When me and pig play offline the results are WAY differant than online.

like I said...you are fighting your opponent and his connection. NOT just the opponent. The peeps with a good connection have it easier, but for us with a bad connection we need to overcome more...but I think that is the fun. That is the challenge. It would be nice to see who really is the best on an even connection, but we will never find out. So we do what we can. This is life my friends. For me I realized that 33 isnt something I can ever do consistently, nor are the deep kick combos. I dont have that weapon...so I must use the weapons I do have to compensate. Sure its an uphill battle. but for me I wouldnt want it any other way. Thats why i pick mid-tiers...i like being the underdog and fighting an uphill battle. If you are the type that wants EVERY advantage then this game isnt for you.

I'm not "that safe" against everyone, Red blames lag for all his loses you should know this by now, Mav is just beefed about how he does against me all the time. I mean just ask the people that can beat me with eaze ha, ha pun intended at times although the last time I played eazy I did much better against him but he still bested me, I was just happy I didn't get owned like 15-0 or something. Bobby USED to lag badly for me, but doesn't lag against me anymore and he'll tell you the same. I also have our matches on tape, well I managed to record a few of them. It wasn't that bad.

I was just saying though as far as our series, just like I'm sure on your end I might have been safe with certain characters you were also very safe with most of your characters.

The odd thing about your connection though was this I noticed chaos, it was 4 stars when I found you yet the connection seemed like 2 or 3?

With eazy it's always 3 or 2 for me so I know what I'm getting into and can prepare, usually with 4 star connections it's pretty good most of the time.


Don't worry chaos, I won't mention other games I already know most here don't play the other MKs...my mistake, but yeah anyway back to the topic on my part.

Chaos everyone lags in this game, I'm only trying to point out to you is that different players apparently connect differently to other players.

Example, Bobby and me connect very well, I connect well with mav he's just bsing, red complains about everyone, malone I connect to well, alex very well, eazy it's not the best but I noticed when I hosted the last time it seemed better then when he hosts.

So, you see you might connect bad with say bobby where I connect good against him. Know what I mean?

MKF...i am not beefed...whats true is true. If you were won of those I dont experience lag against I would say it. Groy is a great example. I have a great connection with him. Hell, I might even have an advantage. However, the dude beats me. You beat me. There was definitely and advantage. I am not complaining, its not your fault. Its just true. With some people I am like damn what do I need to do to beat them. With you there were alot of spots where I said...damn how did he do that so easy or how come that didnt work then? I am a pretty straight shooter (unlike you) and I will call a spade a spade. You are VERY safe with alot of things and you seem to have an awarness and you exploit it. Hell, I am not mad at you for that. It just is what it is. Now you call do your usual double talk to down play it. But the fact remains.

mkf more than just me have said it, YOU ARE THAT SAFE. How can you even make a comment like that, you see your side only. U2 kabal is not safe in any way shape or form, nor does it give a free throw mid screen wall only. That move alone and how it works for you is proff of how safe you are. kabals 4 is safer than u2 and 4 isnt even safe.


when mav does the rhino drop and misses, he can't block after.. When you do the rhino drop and miss, you block/ parry after... Agian if you played on non dial up, you would no the moves you overly spam are punishable.