Since MKD bio for Sub-Zero I am staring to believe there may have only been two. Here is my theory.
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posted11/05/2004 08:25 AM (UTC)by
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trynax
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06/30/2003 04:34 PM (UTC)
Okay for a a long time now, we all know there have been at least seven different Sub-Zero's. However, ever since the Deception bio tells that Sub-Zero may be a decendant of a clan of Outworlders makes me think that maybe, there were realy only two Sub-Zeroes after all. How else could Scorpion, and Sub-Zero be around the same time as Kung Lao in MK Konquest? If the Sub-Zero from MK1 was the 6th, then Scorpion wouldn't have been around until around his time, which is after the time when Kung Lao (Great Kung Lao) was still around. If he is a decendant of an Outworld clan, then he could be like Kitana, and be very old too, so him killing Scorpion then would make sence. He would have killed Scorpion, and then Scorpion could have followed him centuries before finally getting his revenge. But until time can shed more light on this subject, I will still believe that MK1, and MKII Sub-Zero are the 6th, and 7th Sub-Zeroes of MK. What do you think about this theory?
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XiahouDun84
11/02/2004 05:17 AM (UTC)
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Scorpion and Sub-Zero (the one we know) weren't around during the time of the first Kung Lao. Sub-Zero killed Scorpion two years before MK1, as seen in Mythologies.
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J8son
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11/02/2004 07:21 AM (UTC)
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Very important note considering the Mortal Kombat timeline:
KONQUEST IS NOT PART OF THE MK CONTINUITY!
If you remember that then your life will be much easier.
Besides, if we are considering Konquest part of the timeline then we also have to take Annihilation into consideration. Under those rules Shao Kahn would be Raiden's brother and Shinnok would be their Dad. And we all know that's just plain wrong...
Unless it is confirmed in the game or comics then it is not considered to be canon. Just like some of the endings are "what if" scenarios and are meant to be disregarded.
Therefore, it's possible that Classic Sub-Zero is the first however it's more likely that the name Sub-Zero is passed down through the family. That is why the younger brother inherited it in MK 2 when his older brother was believed to be dead.
Same probably goes for Scorpion. The name was passed to him but unfortunately no one else had the opportunity to assume that name since Quan Chi wiped the clan shortly after Scorpions death.
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Lucid
11/02/2004 09:10 AM (UTC)
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Uhh.. how is Konquest not part of the story? I doubt they would go through all the trouble of putting so much story into it, just to say "it doesn't count."
It explains so much back story and so much of MK:D. I'm almost positive that the majority of Konquest will be canon, as you say.
I can understand people saying, "not all the endings really happened," but Konquest is the single player mode. It's the focal point of the game until you've finished it. They're not just going to throw away everything they established with it.
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Antisane
11/02/2004 10:22 AM (UTC)
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Noob-Saibot was also in an episode of Conquest (yeah for once they used the correct spelling ?)
If he is the original Sub-Zero then he shouldnt exist until after MK1.
Unless Noob-Saibot's ending is utterly false....
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DamRho
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11/02/2004 11:42 AM (UTC)
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Lucid Wrote:
Uhh.. how is Konquest not part of the story? I doubt they would go through all the trouble of putting so much story into it, just to say "it doesn't count."
It explains so much back story and so much of MK:D. I'm almost positive that the majority of Konquest will be canon, as you say.
I can understand people saying, "not all the endings really happened," but Konquest is the single player mode. It's the focal point of the game until you've finished it. They're not just going to throw away everything they established with it.

He meant Konquest the TV Show.
I guess...
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Spooky_Electric
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11/02/2004 04:14 PM (UTC)
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All I have to say about this subject is, WHAT THE FUCK??? Seven Sub-Zero's? What have you been smoking pal? There was the original, and his brother, that's it. If somewhere in the extended story of the TV show or something they said there were seven Sub-Zero's, someone please correct me, but as far as the games go I've only ever heard of the two and no more.
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J8son
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11/03/2004 01:21 AM (UTC)
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Yes, I thought you meant the T.V. show. Only certain parts of the Konquest Mode in the game are canon.
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Shinomune
11/03/2004 02:19 AM (UTC)
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In MKMythologies said that the Sub-Zeros' Father is the 4th generation Sub-Zero (reason for sometimes the fans called MK1 Sub-Zero like 5th Sub-Zero and his young bro like 6th Sub-Zero)
-Conquest T.V. Serie = NON CANON
-Konquest MKD Mode = Part canon, part non canon.
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severg
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11/03/2004 05:35 AM (UTC)
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There are four Sub-zeros. The first was never in the mortal kombat games but was the father of two.The next was in mk1.Second was in mk2-mkd. And the fourth was an imposter in mkt, with similar powers to the real Sud-zero
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trynax
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11/03/2004 08:53 AM (UTC)
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Spooky_Electric Wrote:
All I have to say about this subject is, WHAT THE FUCK??? Seven Sub-Zero's? What have you been smoking pal? There was the original, and his brother, that's it. If somewhere in the extended story of the TV show or something they said there were seven Sub-Zero's, someone please correct me, but as far as the games go I've only ever heard of the two and no more.

There are seven generations of Sub-Zero's. Go to the MK1 Goro bio. It states that Goro defeated Kung Lao 500 years ago. In Mythologies it states that Sub-Zero is the sisxth generation warrior. Plus if you figure the normal life span of a human which is around 100 years old, you go back 100 years each time, and you get five different Sub-Zero's, plus the two from MK1, and MKII-MKD which equal seven total. We have only played as, or seen two of the seven. There are more than two Sub-Zeroes.
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trynax
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11/03/2004 08:57 AM (UTC)
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XiahouDun84 Wrote:
Scorpion and Sub-Zero (the one we know) weren't around during the time of the first Kung Lao. Sub-Zero killed Scorpion two years before MK1, as seen in Mythologies.

True if you go by just the video game itself. However, the TV show would be way off then, becuase Scorpion is in it, and the first generation Sub-Zero. The Sub-Zero in konquest couldn't be the Sub-Zero in MK1 since he wasn't born yet, and it is impossible for him to be 500 years old too, unless my theory is correct, and Sub-Zero is actually an Outworlder.
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FROST4584
11/03/2004 10:17 AM (UTC)
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Off topic.. Konquest isn't 100% true. There are meduim amount of things that can't be do to MK: DA and MK : Deception characters dead or missing that are walking around . Also wasn't really storyline focused like MK: DA 's Konquest mode was. Back to the topic. Their is 1 sub-Zero in the game. Sub-Zero bio reads that he is from a line of people that have learned the mastery of cold. That was a long long time ago. When MK1 rolled around the MK1 Sub-Zero was active. Also Sub-Zero from MK1 is the one from MKM-SZ. As you may know that Scopion killed that Sub-Zero. The younger bother ( the 7th Sub-Zero) from MK2 to present is now the only Sub-Zero left unit he has kids or something.Also TV,movies, and the cartoons aren't part of the real MK storyline. I would be posible that a desentant of Sub-Zero was alive during the live of the Kung Lao that lost the MK torneyment but I am sure plot wise never came into contact.( MK Conquest show never happened in the MK games )The only storylines that matter are the game ones. Also I know about Sub-Zero's "connection" in Deception but won't say do to spoilers.
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Vorpax
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11/03/2004 10:48 AM (UTC)
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to tell the truth, im ery confused
hopefully MK SM could really help us out in finding the awnser.
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Grizzle
11/03/2004 11:25 AM (UTC)
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Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
There were only two Sub-Zeros in Mortal Kombat. Those two are Noob Saibot and Sub-Zero. There were warriors who had the same Kori powers as Sub-Zero and his brother but only two were given the name Sub-Zero. The Lin Kuei kidnapped the two brothers and raised them to become Lin Kuei. Sub-Zero is a codename for the Lin Kuei which signifys their power over ice.
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XiahouDun84
11/03/2004 03:53 PM (UTC)
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trynax Wrote:
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
Scorpion and Sub-Zero (the one we know) weren't around during the time of the first Kung Lao. Sub-Zero killed Scorpion two years before MK1, as seen in Mythologies.

True if you go by just the video game itself. However, the TV show would be way off then, becuase Scorpion is in it, and the first generation Sub-Zero. The Sub-Zero in konquest couldn't be the Sub-Zero in MK1 since he wasn't born yet, and it is impossible for him to be 500 years old too, unless my theory is correct, and Sub-Zero is actually an Outworlder.

The show was way off. It was based off the movie's storyline, so you really can't take anything from it as canon.
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EvilRyu
11/03/2004 04:47 PM (UTC)
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Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Noob's anding in MKD makes no sense and I hope it is not true. If it is true it goes against the known story so far. We already know that Sub-zero was NOT really killed by Scorpion in MK1. He reappears in UMK3/MKT and MK4, so how could Noob be around in MK2? Also the original SZ doesn't die in the official MK4 storyline, so as far as we know he is still alive. Not to mention Noob and the original SZ appeared together in both UMK3 and MK4. Besides Noob has never fought anything like SZ. He has been a Scorpion clone and a Kano clone, but never a SZ clone.
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XiahouDun84
11/03/2004 05:51 PM (UTC)
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EvilRyu Wrote:
Noob's anding in MKD makes no sense and I hope it is not true. If it is true it goes against the known story so far. We already know that Sub-zero was NOT really killed by Scorpion in MK1. He reappears in UMK3/MKT and MK4, so how could Noob be around in MK2? Also the original SZ doesn't die in the official MK4 storyline, so as far as we know he is still alive. Not to mention Noob and the original SZ appeared together in both UMK3 and MK4. Besides Noob has never fought anything like SZ. He has been a Scorpion clone and a Kano clone, but never a SZ clone.confused

Sub-Zero did die in MK1 and he wasn't in MK4. The "Classic" Sub-Zero in Trilogy was non-canon like Human Smoke.
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severg
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11/03/2004 08:28 PM (UTC)
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The "classic" Sub-zero your talking about is the imposter I posted earlier.
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Zentile
11/03/2004 08:50 PM (UTC)
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Whoa! It's been a long time since I've seen such great quantity of bullshit getting slingshot all over the thread.
Before, there was the rumour that stated that there are 7 sub-zeroes.
Later, it was confirmed that there are only 2 Sub-Zeroe's.
Now what... there are 4 Sub-Zeroes? And the one from mythologies is the same one from MK4? What the shit?
Get through your thick skulls. There are only TWO Sub-Zeroes, and that's
Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Noob Saibot and 'good guy' Sub-Zero.
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DeathScepter
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11/03/2004 09:29 PM (UTC)
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UMK3 Subby is official MK1 subby and not the imposter.
Konquest MODE MKDA AND MKD are official
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Bloodline666
11/04/2004 09:24 AM (UTC)
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DeathScepter Wrote:
UMK3 Subby is official MK1 subby and not the imposter.

And what sources do you have to back it up? I have a shitload of sources to back up the theory...no, FACT that UMK3 Classic Sub-Zero is NOT the MK1 Sub-Zero. For one, his ending. Number two, there's the official MK Plot FAQ (care of Gavok, with help from yours truly, ]{0MBAT). And wait, there's more shocking evidence pointing to Noob = MK1 Subby!
FACT: The Brothers of the Shadow were mentioned in MKM: S-Z, which would make you think that you would run into Noobie in MKM. Did you? NO! Did he even show up at all in that game? NO!
FACT: MK2...No MK1 Subbie. Just his younger brother and good old Noobie! And Noobie has *gasp* Sub-Zero's stances!
FACT: MK4 on N64...we have one Subbie (again, the "face" Subbie and no "heel" Subbie). We also have Noobie as hidden character. Noobie has...Subbie stance, breaker move, throw, and victory pose. Not only that, but under one-button fatalities, he's got one of Subbie's fatalities.
FACT: See Noobie's MKD ending.
Which leads to some questions that n00bs will likely be bombarding me and everyone else with!
Q: Oh HELL NO! MK1 Subbie was not shadow black! Noobie is shadow black!
A: (insert sarcasm here) Oh HELL NO! Scorpion did not have a skull face before he died! (That photo from his MK1 ending was obviously him before his death) He has a skull face now underneath his mask. And what's the only fatality you can do on Scorpion in MKM: S-Z, ladies and gentlemen? BINGO! Subbie's only fatality from MK1. I think it's generally agreed that fatality is what caused Scorpion's specter form to have a bare skull underneath the mask. What is Scorpie's fatality in MK1? Ahh yes...the toasty breath one! And color does your food turn when you burn it too much? BLACK! We know Scorpion killed Subbie in MK1! So what caused Subbie's WRAITH form to be black? BINGO! Scorpie's fatality!
Q: That's BULLSHIT! Classic Subbie was in UMK3 along with Noobie!
A: Didn't I just now finish explaining why he wasn't CANON?! Just like Human Smoke!
Q: Well, Noobie in MK3 was a Kano sprite!
A: That's because there was no masked male human ninja sprite in MK3, and back then, the only ninja sprite he could've gotten was a robo ninja sprite, and only Lin Kuei ninjas who were ALIVE in MK3 got to be robo ninjas back then! Yes, even though that's evidence AGAINST the Noobie = MK1 Subbie theory, the fact of the matter is this; the evidence FOR that theory STRONGLY outweighs the evidence AGAINST it! Perponderance of evidence people! Get it through your head!
Q: But I thought Noobie was Reiko, because Reiko ROBBED Noobie of his slot in MK4 and stole his teleport slam, and Noobie having Reiko's fatalities, stance, breaker, throw, and victory pose in PC and PlayStation versions of MK4, and Noobie stealing the shurikens fatality in MKD, and blah blah blah!
A: Don't even get me STARTED on Reiko being another character...you know how much bullshit the Reiko=Shao Kahn thing is, and that has already been proven, too!
Q: Then why wasn't Noobie in MKM: S-Z?
A: I know I'm contradicting myself here, but technically, he WAS in MK Mythologies...I think the word "technically" is the keyword here!
Q: If you say that Noobie is MK1 Subbie, then why does he have his own rival's spear move in MK2?
A: Smoke had Scorpion's Spear in not only MK2, but well into MK Trilogy, as well. But did Smoke having Scorpion's Spear stop him from being written into the MK storyline as a Lin Kuei? HELL NO! Did Smoke being written into the official MK2 Comic as a Lin Kuei stop him from having Scorpion's Spear? Once again, HELL NO! That's the main reason Noob having Scorpion's Spear in MK2 is irrelevant to this argument!
Q: But I thought endings were only "what-if" situations!
A: Okay, I've had enough sarcasm here, and this is a question I can only answer by being serious, and I will admit that this is a complex answer...Yes, endings can be what-if situations. A lot of characters had these kind of endings, like Raiden, Kano, Shang Tsung, and so on down the line. Some of these "what-if" endings do get declared as having happened, only to get retconned later on. I would say a prime example of that would be Scorpion's MK2 ending, because this ending was backed up by the official MK2 comic and Scorpion's UMK3 ending, but ultimately got retconned in MK4. Endings CAN happen, but not always word-for-word. Example? Jax's ending from MK2 and Sonya's ending from MK3. They didn't kick Shao Kahn's ass, but the rest of those two endings still happened. And Jax's MK3 ending fed directly into Sonya's MK3 ending. Endings also carry vital storyline information that is true regardless of whether or not the ending happens, a LOT of which does not appear in the opening bios for those particular characters, and thus you won't find out until you actually see the ending. Examples? Kitana's ending from MK2. Sindel's from MK3 (which kinda feeds into Kitana's MK2 ending). Sub-Zero and Scorpion's from MK2. Mileena's ending from MK Trilogy. Kabal's ending from MK3. Rain's MKT ending. Quan Chi's ending from MK4. And of course, Noob-Smoke's ending from MKD. And chances are, you were somehow surprised by some of these endings when you first saw them. Before Noob-Smoke's ending from MKD, the endings that surprised me the most were Sub-Zero and Scorpion's endings. I did not have the luxury of having that limited edition official MK2 comic, so it was through these two endings that I learned that there truly were two Sub-Zero's. As for using this argument for the Reiko = Shao Kahn debate, I seriously doubt that it could be used effectively to argue the stance in favor of that theory, as Reiko's MK4 ending is vague, to say the least. I believe this theory has been proven false. For all I know, it could have been true for a while only to get retconned later on. And speaking of retconned endings, there was a point where I thought all but FOUR of MKDA's endings would happen (the four not happening being Kano's, Kenshi's, Shang Tsung's, and Quan Chi's). Back when MKDA was released, John Vogel said somewhere that this would be the case for endings happening in MKDA, but as MKD was being made, some last-minute retcons were made on a lot of the endings said to have happened in MKDA.
Q: What is a "retcon"?
A: "Retcon" is actually a made-up word that's taken from two actual words that explain what it means. When you "retcon" something, you "RETroactively CONtradict" it, hence the word "retcon."
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EvilRyu
11/04/2004 01:22 PM (UTC)
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Classic SZ from UMK3 may not have anything to do with the official storyline since he is a secret character from a "special" MK game, but SZ in MK4 IS the same one from MK1. Why else would Scorpion be trying to kill him? Scorp has no beef with the younger SZ. In MK4 Scorp found out that SZ wasn't really dead and was trying to get revenge on him again. When he catches him in his ending SZ tells him that Quan Chi is responsible for the deathes of his family, but he confesses to being the one who killed Scorp.
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XiahouDun84
11/04/2004 03:34 PM (UTC)
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EvilRyu Wrote:
Classic SZ from UMK3 may not have anything to do with the official storyline since he is a secret character from a "special" MK game, but SZ in MK4 IS the same one from MK1. Why else would Scorpion be trying to kill him? Scorp has no beef with the younger SZ. In MK4 Scorp found out that SZ wasn't really dead and was trying to get revenge on him again. When he catches him in his ending SZ tells him that Quan Chi is responsible for the deathes of his family, but he confesses to being the one who killed Scorp.

1) Sub-Zero's MK4 bio:
"After Shao Kahn’s defeat at the hands of Earth’s fighters, Sub-Zero’s warrior clan known as the Lin Kuei is disbanded. But with the new threat brought on by Quan Chi, the ice warrior once again dons the familiar costume once worn by his brother, the original Sub-Zero. He also holds secrets passed on to him by his sibling- secrets that could hold the key to stopping Shinnok."
2) Sub-Zero in MK4 has a scar just like he had in MK3 and MK:DA.
3) Why was Scorpion after Sub-Zero? He was decieved by Quan Chi into believing the younger Sub-Zero was involved for the massacre of his family and clan. Remember, Scorpion killed the original Sub-Zero to avenge his OWN death. In MK4, Scorpion never mentions his death, just the death of his family and clan.
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J8son
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11/04/2004 04:46 PM (UTC)
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I think it's important to clear up something about the Scorpion/Sub-Zero debate.
The reason Scorpion is still trying to kill Sub-Zero in MK4 is because he does not know that this is his younger brother.
The fact that MK2 Sub-Zero is not the original is NOT a widely known fact.
Look at Scorpions MK 4 ending. Even Quan Chi thinks that this is the original. He says "To defeat my nemesis Sub-Zero I needed the power of a specter.
" I would assume that Quan Chi never even met the younger brother hence he assumes that this is the original Sub
Scorpions MK 2 bio also confirms this: The hell- spawned specter rises from the pits. After learning of Sub-Zero's return, he again stalks the ninja assassin- following him into the dark realm of the Outworld where he continues his own unholy mission.
Scorpion knows he killed Sub-Zero once but later finds out that Quan Chi is the reason that his curse lives on. That is why he sets his sights on Quan Chi during MK: Deadly Alliance.
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