Ashrah has more mixups than Jade does, but she is just as "unsafe" as Jade. Jade does huge easy damage, Ashrah does not. Jade has projectile invincibility to get around Dairou's Iron Leg and Smoke's cloud, plus a teleport, Ashrah does not.

Sure, Ashrah has a few infinite combos...but that is not a consideration for this tier list.

i think that also, but maybe it could have some thing to do w/ the insane damage jade dishes out.. also tho ashrah sucks vs low pokes.. jade is decent vs low pokes.. i can go on about the pros and cons but im lazy..

konqrr will prolly explain..

He did... Like a minute before you! Lol!

Thanks for that both of. However, Konqrr, I find I do better with Ashrah against Dairou than I do with Jade. And does the Invincibility really allow her safe passage through the smoke cloud? And Ashrah counters the teleport of Jades and Raidens with her Spin Cycle. I've had many Ashrah vs Jade matches and Ashrah normally always comes out on top. I guess I need more practice! Lol!

personnally I find Jade invincibility useful against Kobra low fireball, hellfire and Nightwolf lighting. Or against Sub-Zero ice moves.

This move is underestimated by many I think

but on another note, Nightwolf invincibility move completly sucks lol

First of all I'd like to say that i am pleased to finally come to this site and think it is awesome !!!!

Now to the topic: Can some-one please explain to me why Kabal is considered to be at the bottome tier ?!!!

Kabal is the only character i really play and have devestated plenty of characters/players with him. If played with proper strategy, i feel he could go well vs. ne 1. Majority of characters all have a pause in thier combos which opens them up for a quick (and u better be fast ) dash that will allow him to perform his combos ( so they better take it or break it and u only have 3 breakers ). His dash counters all sidestepping that many have come to perfect and wait for to counter themselves. With 3 devestating combos, a 63% , 67% & 72%, and a unbreakable slam that causes a confusing 50-50 right after, what is one to do? lol . Teleporting characters have little chance with a quick kabal (jade, raiden, kenshi) cuz their teleport is slow and easily countered with the dash.

In Jades combo right before she pulls her weapon, she's open for dash.
In raidens combo at the end of 3rd hit, he's open.
1 of jinkos combo has a sever pause that leaves him open.

I could go on but wont. Kabal is a great character to counter cheezers if played with the right strategy...just give him an opening to dash and waste thier breakers. Once they're gone....its pretty much over.

Kabal causes ppl to change thier attack because of his dash. Most seem to be more timid now to move in fear of missing. This is the beginning of thier defeat cuz now they are mentally defeated.

Kabal may not be the best......but certainly not at the bottom.....not
sk-yoda's kabal anyways .

It protects her from the Summon Hellfire too?

Could someone make a list of all the attacks it protects her from, please!

sk-yoda, I have redone the tier list on Page 11 and Kabal is much higher than the list on the front page.

I agree, your Kabal is one of the best! BTW, what is the 72% combo you mentioned?

Thanks for that both of. However, Konqrr, I find I do better with Ashrah against Dairou than I do with Jade. And does the Invincibility really allow her safe passage through the smoke cloud? And Ashrah counters the teleport of Jades and Raidens with her Spin Cycle. I've had many Ashrah vs Jade matches and Ashrah normally always comes out on top. I guess I need more practice! Lol!

As a Dairou player,I think Jade is better from far away Vs. Dairou while Ashrah might be better up close Vs. Dairou.Jade can her intiate her Green Mist and pretty much jump around from far away,and there's is not much the Dairou player can do.However,this is not such of a big deal for me since you can always teleport and waste time in which case they will lose their Green Mist.Jade also has to use 50/50 mix up in her second stance to beat Dairou.In any case,Ashrah needs to get in close to do you any harm.Her grab is inescapable and un-techable.This is were her nasty 50/50 mix ups come from.This is just Vs. Dairou,however.I don't who is better overall.Maybe Ashrah is better than her.I'm not sure.

You can try your Jade and Ashrah online Vs. me if you have PS2 online and play on NTSC.

Jade's Green Mist works against MOST projectiles that are of some kind of fireballs.Thus,it wouldn't work Vs. Scorp's Spear for example,but it would Vs. Sub's Ice projectile.Yeah,it does works Vs. N/S's cloud as well as Sub's Ice Clone.It also works Vs. BRC Puke Puddle (you don't slip) and Vs. Kira's Kiss (not completely sure though).

thnx konqrr for your props:

i've always done the normal (hooks stance) 2,1,4,1,1,4,1,1,4,cs

i've noticed that at times my opponent is still high in the air after my combo so i looked for other hits that could be done....what u need to do is walk up a bit after the last kick and add: cs,1,1,cs

i've done it 5 times and would definately love to record it but dont know how...i have a tivo/dvd burner...i guess i could start recording my fights to get it down and burn it so i can send it to you....lol.

that is hard to pull off cuz of timing between walking up abit factor...you dont want to walk too far or not enuff. this combo will end at the end of the screen or truely knock off opponents of cliffs....lol.

Another one that could be added to the end of 1st combo is: cs, d+2 and that will complete combo w/ a uppercut or knock them off of cliff as well. Another problem would be the space factor. to pull this off u'd have to start from one end of stage cuz it will certainly take you to the other in some stages.
So be sure to turn ur traps off.

those additions are very hard, and like i said i have only completed them 5 times....if its hard for me....then its truely hard

I agree whole-heartedly with the original list. It's depressing seeing Sindel so low, because I <3 her, but I think that's probably where she belongs, because it took me FOREVER to beat Onaga with her. Hmm.. I'm glad my girl Jade is the highest girl though. :D

Jade isn't the best female...Mileena is by far.

Hmm...so Goro is not as high tier as I thought he would be.

Great job Konqrr on the revamping. This was due a long time ago, but me and greg have been busy with other things. I'll post it up now.

Few comments..

Sub is NOT worse in MKD than he was in MKDA. He's a much, much better character. The only problem is(which Konqrr stated already damn him) is that the roster in MKD is a lot better overall than the roster in MKDA. So Sub is placed lower just because everyone else is super good while is just "iight". He's like one of the only characters who doesn't have any infinite. He can still win though up to like..Nightwolf. From there on it gets winnable, but ugly. Some matches like vs Dairou or just not even worth your time unless you are a true Sub player like myself, but whatever. As of late I've become used to him sucking.

Jade is better than Ashrah..no question about it. Jade's invicibility makes her the better character, and she just does more damage more easily..period. Ashrah is good but Jade is better.

After seeing how high level mileena is played I can truly say she owns.

Oh, and you guys need to check out the future gameplay board..that's tough!

I understand what you mean about Sub-Zero. However, one of the negatives about him (and I know I said this before) is how they fucked up his Dragon style. I still don't get why they had to do that. That plus the kicks in Kori Blade. Anyway, at least he's stronger and at least his Kori Blade is better than before. If things were more balanced, Sub would probably be in mid tier or something, don't you think?

I think the problem with Sub-Zero as of late is that Midway thinks because he has the ability to freeze the opponent that they pay EXTRA attention in not making him broken(like in MK3). While I commend them for doing that, what about the other 22 characters above him Midway? Chars 1-15 all have some pretty sick shit, and the rest aren't exactly lacking. Clouds, hellfires and vomit all are deadlier than the freeze Mr. Boon! Sub hasn't been top 10 in a Mortal Kombat game since I was 5 years old..got damn! LOL.

Kori Blade is a better stance in MKD than it was in MKDA. The problem is that Sub doesn't have a real effective way of making your opponent use their breaker. b+2 is the ONLY mid threat he has that can lead to over 50, and it takes a lot of throwing, a lot of lows and a lot of mind games to get them to even consider ducking, and when you finally do get them to duck(a rarity) they can always breaker, reducing your damage drastically. So basically you can play Sub two ways...

A. Wildly and Unorthodoxly - My style of playing. Basically not having a stiff and strict mind set when playing. Throwing out what you feel or know will work at certain times. I see it this way, Sub is not good enough to play it safe all the time, so why not take risk? You'd be surprised at how rewarding it can be. Also, anytime I get b+2 to hit I go for full 50%+ no matter what. I try to get make them get rid of their breakers as early as possible.

B. Passively and Strictly - The smarter, but less rewarding way of playing. You stick to a very simple and workable move list consisting mainly of kori d+3,kori b+2,throw and clone. These should be used no matter what, but with this style of playing it's basically the only things that are used. When you go for b+2 you instantly follow up with d+2 because it's unbreakable and hope when they land that they don't tech. This way you can walk up for a 50/50, but that's really futile since all good players tech roll back to escape the mix up.

Dragon isn't as bad as I once thought thanks to Konqrr's enlightment. It's not as good as it was in MKDA(d+3, 4b+2 and back dash canceling galore), but with Dragon d+1 u can use that to set up a 50/50 oppurtunity by walking up and throwing afterwards or cs~b+2. This helps sub out a lot since d+1 does so little damage that opponents rarely low block it.

Shotokan sucks ass now(with the exception of d+1), but if you think about it..even with MKDA style Shotokan it still would of sucked ass. What made Shotokan a decent stance in MKDA was it's jab game(1 and 1,2). In it you could do 1 and block and be relatively safe and test to see if they will punish, or you could do 1,2 to see if they try to punish the single 1, and if they don't you can still go back to blocking and be relatively safe. Shit, if you were quick enough and you see that the 2 in 1,2 hits you can quickly press b+2 and get yourself a nice 30% juggle. In MKD, however, this would be raped since when you block after your shoto 1 or 1,2 is blocked they get an automatic 50/50. With throws doing so much damage you would of had a 50% chance of being screwed anyway if you ducked or stayed up. So Shoto was doomed either way.

Now you ask how Sub could of been mid/top tier? Well, a good low attack that causes a stay still stun(like jade's 2nd stance d+3) that did around 15% would of made sub-zero killer. They could of also made Sub-Zero a dominating character simply by giving Sub-Zero a throw that launched, which would give them a reason to duck and would automatically strengthen kori: b+2. I mean seriously, Sub's throw sucks ass. You can't even 50/50 afterwards unless they are really block happy. Lastly, making the clone work up close would of set it off perfectly. Why tone his clone down when the cloud is the EXACTY same thing but comes out faster and works in close? It's funny, everytime Sub sucks in a game there's always one thing they could of gave to him to give him that extra punch to make him a legitimate high level play character. Oh well, I'll stay dedicated no matter what.

I think Midway and the posse needs to take MK back to it's UMK3 style. Not neccessarily gameplay wise, but make EVERYBODY broken. Sub was the worst in that game and he could still hang with anybody because he had some nasty shit.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Still waiting on that list.....

wow, so i guess jade would be a pick vs somone that picks ns or bo, or anyone for that matter that has a projectile of some sorts, but jade may have a strong combo, but after that, theres not really much you can do right? whats her highest comob? and IMO i think li mei is a mid tier player, shes qucik and has a good 50/50 in her first stance, plus her specials are really good, and iv acctualy gotten her 74% online once (but the person i played had 4 stars and there was no lag at all, i mean for instance, i pick liu the one time, and his f+2 usualy has no delay online, but it was like i was in practice mode or versus, i liked it tho it was more fun as it was easier to block and attack, really made the game better, maybe the PS2 should have a x-box live type of thing were theres no lag and still be FREE!!! that would be great

I would like to know what Shao Kahn's strengths and weaknesses are, what his best style is, and why is he placed in the rank that he is in.

Could someone elaborate on the changes made to the gcn tier list? I think I know why Dairou was lowered (TS drop fixed), but what about Shujinko? Also, if possible, could someone explain the strengths/weaknesses of Goro/Shao Kahn?

Holy shit, Sub-Zero is low tier??? Well that explains that weird feeling of inability of hurting somebody. Guess they should have left the ice shaker and add beter moves.

The heck you smoking man? Shotokan is power, IMO. B+2, 12, 124cs2cs....46%......that'll make them use their breakers. You can also do 11B+2, 12, 124cs2cs for 40%. In dragon, you can do 12cs, 124cs2cs for 32%.

I don't get why Li Mei is so low on the list. She has (1st stance) B+1, 112, db4, 112, ff3 for 54% damage. B+1 is a very fast and safe move that leads to deadly damage. Now she also has a LOT of other juggles in all 3 of her stances that are very fast, generally have good recovery and lead to 30-50% damage. Not only that, but if you are able to pull off (3rd stance) U+1, cs, 112, db4, 112, db4, 2, db4, ff3, you'll get a whoppin' 85% damage plus a free 50/50. She may take more skill to play with than most other characters, but when played right I can't see why she can't crush most of the competition.

Kori: b+2,1,2,1,2,4,cs,2,cs is better than the the same juggle off shoto b+2 because Kori: b+2 hits mid and can actually be set up. b+2 in shoto has absolutely no set up possibilities because it hits high and is unsafe. Dragon sucks..period. d+1 is ok but shotokan: d+1 is much better. All the pop ups in dragon have absolutely no set up or mix up value at all since they all start with high attacks. The only move I use out of dragon is 4,b+2 and that's only when I know they will not duck.

Shotokan is NOT power.

Shotokan in MKDA was power though *evil grin* shaker,cs,power up~cs~cs~side step~1,2,b+2,b+2,cs,1,2,cs. Damage baby! Good luck setting that one up though.

Yeah Chrome Sub isn't good, but adding in ice shaker really wouldn't of made a difference. The move sucked and the clone is much much better. I still would like it back though with properties(check my topic out on the MK future games board).

holy triple post subman!

Kori: b+2,1,2,1,2,4,cs,2,cs is better than the the same juggle off shoto b+2 because Kori: b+2 hits mid and can actually be set up. b+2 in shoto has absolutely no set up possibilities because it hits high and is unsafe. Dragon sucks..period. d+1 is ok but shotokan: d+1 is much better. All the pop ups in dragon have absolutely no set up or mix up value at all since they all start with high attacks. The only move I use out of dragon is 4,b+2 and that's only when I know they will not duck.

If your opponent starts to duck, why not just ff4 or uppercut them? free 50/50 afterwards, if they refuse to block standing, punish them. I mean Liu Kang has a lot of high hitting combo starters, and he's considered to be upper-mid tier. Also, what's wrong with staying in the same stance the entire fight? Lots of characters do it. If you do (3rd stance) B+2, cs, 12, 124cs2cs....you'll end up right back in 3rd stance. Maybe some stances are meant purposely for juggle damage, and that's why Shotokan and Dragon stance have mostly high hits.