Confederate Flag Issue

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posted08/03/2004 07:12 PM (UTC)by

TheTinMan2005

@TheTinMan2005

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07/31/2004 12:57 AM (UTC)

This was a pretty hot button issue a couple of years ago but has been overshadowed as of late.

I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

Let me espouse my point-of-view first. I was born and raised here in Texas, and my father was born in Alabama and most of that side of my family still live there. I am not a racist. I'm a liberal, and I support Affirmative Action.

However, I must digress, I am pro-flag. For me the flag is more of a cultural and historical symbol, and not anything racist. It's been labeled as a symbol for slavery, however, this is a common lack of historical..perception most people have.

Any true historian would tell you that the main issue of the civil war was not slavery, but the true heart of the conflict was more over economics(the south was more agrarian and the north was more industrial) and more over the rights of states. For me, the flag is actually a symbol against tyranny(in this case of the Federal government), and a symbol of rebellion.

I've found no matter how eloquently this is explained by many people, Northerners seem to just not get it. It seems to bother them that even though they won the Civil war and we are an integrated part of the country, we are still proud of our heritage at the same time. I got an interest in the subject after coming across a transcript of a Phil Donahue episode on the subject. Although the Southern guest on it made some ignorant and arrogant remarks, a comment from one of the audience members struck me quite oddly.

There had been an attempt to arrest the South guest for carrying a Confederate flag, and the audience member called carrying it 'unconstitutional'. I find it disturbing that someone can find it unconstitutional for one group to still use a flag of cultural pride, while its ok for others groups to(such as African-Americans using the tri-color pan-African flag).

Opinions? Thoughts?

Hyuga

@Hyuga

•08/02/2004 01:21 PM (UTC) •

Meh... lost cause, like you said. I'm from the south (well, not really... most people don't consider Florida "southern") and I don't see it that much. Doesn't really matter around here.

The main problem is that most people who wear/carry them don't understand what it even means. They just use it to show that they're rednecks.

TheTinMan2005

@TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 01:26 PM (UTC) •

Agreed, a lot of the people who use it don't understand it either. And just because I'm a southerner doesn't mean I'm enthusiastic about rednecks. And your right, Florida isn't exactly 'southern' except for the very northern part(how ironic), like Jacksonville, Tallahassee etc.

I'm from Texas, a state, that really for the most part isnt true southern, it has a Western cowboyish feel(which dispite misconceptions isnt really southern), now the particular part I hail from, East texas(Tyler, Kilgore, Longview, Jacksonville, etc.) has that 'Dixieland' feel, but most of the rest of the state doesn't.

TheTinMan2005

@TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 01:27 PM (UTC) •

Btw, I hail from Tyler to be more exact, the late and beloved Potent Seed's hometown.

Siduu101

@Siduu101

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•08/02/2004 01:37 PM (UTC) •

It's not below the equator so it's not southern!

TheTinMan2005

@TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 01:39 PM (UTC) •

Siduu101 Wrote:
It's not below the equator so it's not southern!

A perfect example of a totally useless, and moronic reply. Otherwise known as spam.

krackerjack

@krackerjack

•08/02/2004 01:42 PM (UTC) •

TheTinMan2005 Wrote:
A perfect example of a totally useless, and moronic reply. Otherwise known as spam.

Siduu101 Wrote:
It's not below the equator so it's not southern!

...I like you.

TheTinMan2005

@TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 01:46 PM (UTC) •

krackerjack Wrote:

TheTinMan2005 Wrote:
A perfect example of a totally useless, and moronic reply. Otherwise known as spam.

Siduu101 Wrote:
It's not below the equator so it's not southern!

...I like you.

Thanks.

Raining_Smoke

@Raining_Smoke

•08/02/2004 02:51 PM (UTC) •

I'm also from the South, born and raised (still living here to.) And I'm from South Carolina. The Confederate Flag was taken off of our State House when it was flying with the US and SC flags. Now it has it's own spot on the grounds in front of main street. The African-American population here dispises it. We have a chain of BBQ restaurants that fly it, Maurices BBQ. I dont find it to be about slavery either, but its about history.

secondgen

@secondgen

•08/02/2004 03:29 PM (UTC) •

I was born in Dallas, grew up partly in New Jersey, and now reside in California. I'm not sure if I could be considered a Northerner or a Southerner(though I'll always consider myself a Jersey Boy) but I'm an American no matter what, and the events and times the Confederate flag represents will always be a vital part of our history. I definately believe that the Confederate flag is an icon of slavery, however it is also an icon of the things you described. I also do not believe that people who display the flag are automatically racist or in favor of slavery or anything like that. I'm sure for many Southerners it is a symbol of pride. It represents a people who fought for a cause they believed in, wether or not that cause was right or wrong. For many Confederates, the cause was also different from person to person. To some, the Cause was about their right to keep slaves. There were others who believed that slavery was in fact wrong and should have been abolished, but they fought for the Confederate cause anyway because they believed they were defending their homes from a hostile government. I don't agree with everything the flag represents, but I don't believe that others should be banned from displaying it, either. Every one has the right to express their opinion and their views, and everyone else has the right to agree or disagree. Very touchy subject, and to this day some people of differing opinions cannot talk about it in a civilized and respectful manner.

you_suck

@you_suck

•08/02/2004 03:32 PM (UTC) •

In essence and taking only the Constitution into consideration, it's perfectly fine and perfectly legal, and I support it wholly.

But things are rarely as black and white as that.

From a social standpoint, I believe that people reserve all right to express themselves in any way they choose as long as it does not do harm to another person or their property, or denies them equal opportunity as another in any situation. Thoughts and beleifs will offend, and that is fair, because if you can deny one person the right to think what they will so another person will not be offended, you have the beginnings of the end of the First Amendment.

I'm from an area where the Confederate flag is flown and worn heavily, and most of the black and other minority people, including myself, are OK with it, because I understand who these people who use it are and what they mean by it. I also know that there are a lot of deep racist feelings in a lot of the older generations who have lived in this area for a long time, and I know that by them flying it and "respecting their culture," so to speak, they really do mean racist things by it.

I don't agree with it's use very much, and although it can be interpereted as a symbol of hate, it is still only a symbol and a person may wear it as he pleases. If that person acts on his or her beliefs and does harm or persecutes another person, then the PERSON will be apprehended, not the symbol.

TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 03:33 PM (UTC) •

secondgen Wrote:
I was born in Dallas, grew up partly in New Jersey, and now reside in California. I'm not sure if I could be considered a Northerner or a Southerner(though I'll always consider myself a Jersey Boy) but I'm an American no matter what, and the events and times the Confederate flag represents will always be a vital part of our history. I definately believe that the Confederate flag is an icon of slavery, however it is also an icon of the things you described. I also do not believe that people who display the flag are automatically racist or in favor of slavery or anything like that. I'm sure for many Southerners it is a symbol of pride. It represents a people who fought for a cause they believed in, wether or not that cause was right or wrong. For many Confederates, the cause was also different from person to person. To some, the Cause was about their right to keep slaves. There were others who believed that slavery was in fact wrong and should have been abolished, but they fought for the Confederate cause anyway because they believed they were defending their homes from a hostile government. I don't agree with everything the flag represents, but I don't believe that others should be banned from displaying it, either. Every one has the right to express their opinion and their views, and everyone else has the right to agree or disagree. Very touchy subject, and to this day some people of differing opinions cannot talk about it in a civilized and respectful manner.

EXACTLY, secondgen. To different people it represents different things. The idea of banning it is fascistic, and just as intolerant as groups like the KKK who use it as a symbol of racism. Let us not forget, bad things have also been committed under Old Glory, such as the genocide of Native Americans. So, unfortunately, Old Glory represents that, but for the majority of people, it represents freedom and our heritage. Well the Confederate flag is the same way in the South.

SkeletonofSociety

@SkeletonofSociety

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•08/02/2004 04:38 PM (UTC) •

Well I'm from the North (NJ), and I love the flag. Like you brought up, it was a symbol for rebellion, which is one of the reasons why I like it.Plus (and this may sound corny) but it looks cool. Hell, look how it came out on the guitar in my sig.

Kabal20

@Kabal20

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•08/02/2004 05:37 PM (UTC) •

TheTinMan2005 Wrote:
This was a pretty hot button issue a couple of years ago but has been overshadowed as of late.

I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

Let me espouse my point-of-view first. I was born and raised here in Texas, and my father was born in Alabama and most of that side of my family still live there. I am not a racist. I'm a liberal, and I support Affirmative Action.

However, I must digress, I am pro-flag. For me the flag is more of a cultural and historical symbol, and not anything racist. It's been labeled as a symbol for slavery, however, this is a common lack of historical..perception most people have.

Any true historian would tell you that the main issue of the civil war was not slavery, but the true heart of the conflict was more over economics(the south was more agrarian and the north was more industrial) and more over the rights of states. For me, the flag is actually a symbol against tyranny(in this case of the Federal government), and a symbol of rebellion.

I've found no matter how eloquently this is explained by many people, Northerners seem to just not get it. It seems to bother them that even though they won the Civil war and we are an integrated part of the country, we are still proud of our heritage at the same time. I got an interest in the subject after coming across a transcript of a Phil Donahue episode on the subject. Although the Southern guest on it made some ignorant and arrogant remarks, a comment from one of the audience members struck me quite oddly.

There had been an attempt to arrest the South guest for carrying a Confederate flag, and the audience member called carrying it 'unconstitutional'. I find it disturbing that someone can find it unconstitutional for one group to still use a flag of cultural pride, while its ok for others groups to(such as African-Americans using the tri-color pan-African flag).

Opinions? Thoughts?

The reason why a lot of people are against the Confederate flag, weather you realize it or not is because racism does still exists, and a big part of it is in the southern states. Now I'm not saying that you are racist TinMan, or every person from the South is, or even a KKK supporter, the fact is that many southern still hold on to that mentality of blacks, or anyone know white for that matter is inferior, and lower that white people. It also doesn't help matter that after the civil war that the KKK used the Confederate flag as their symbol for there hatred of non-white people. And the fact that the KKK still exists even to this day preaching mostly in the southern states of their hatred and dislike of black people. And that is why the majority of Americans view the Confederate Flag as racist.

Take Germany, after World War II they are ashamed of themselves for what happened then, and try to distance themselves from it as much as possible.

Even though I don't agree with what the KKK is saying they have a 1st amendment right to say it. But if the South really wants to come out and lift the stigmata of the Confederate Flag representing racism, and slavery they really should come out strongly against the KKK that they don't support it, or share the same views as them. Until the South makes a continues effort to distance themselves from slavery the stigmata of slavery, and racism will always be attached to the Confederate Flag, and no amount of "It's a part of your history" will convince the majority of Americans that it is.

TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 06:04 PM (UTC) •

kabal20, you are the perfect example of the non-understanding Northerner I was referring to. you_suck, even as a minority, understood what I was saying.

I quite frankly don't care what the opinions of the majority of Americans are, because at heart, it does come down to perception, and the fact we all have the right to express ourselves through the First Ammendment. I don't see how Southerners having the Confederate flag is different from the African-Americans using the pan-African flag, or Mexican-Americans using the Mexican flag, its just culture, history, and pride.

And if you think because there are a lot of mistakes and bad things in our(the South's) history, it makes us un entitled to express our cultural heritage, that is wrong. Remember, like I pointed out, the genocide of millions of Native Americans took place under the American flag. I myself am of partly Native American heritage.

Like I said, the only reason why the issue bothered me is that quite a few people who want to take PC to non constitutional extremes seem to want to ban it, and that is my true beef my friend. To those types of close-minded people I say this: from my cold dead hands.

TheTinMan2005

@TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 06:16 PM (UTC) •

Also, another note, you mentioned Germany's shame after WWII. You do not think there has been Southern guilt? Hah!

Yes, especially among people from the older generation, there are many racists people who take the Confederacy Jack as a symbol of hate, but unlike the Swastika(which was not found in German culture except as a symbol of the Nazi party, and nothing else), the Confederate Jack is actually part of our culture, not just a banner for a political idea.

The abuse of this symbol(which like I said is a symbol of rebellion against tyranny) by racists, should not invalidate the right of non-racists persons to embrace it as part of their cultural heritage. The KKK also uses Crosses, now I myself am Athiest, but I don't think it would be fair to Southern Christians to be forbidden from wearing a Cross because of that.

ShingoEX

@ShingoEX

•08/02/2004 06:22 PM (UTC) •

The American flag itself is a symbol of what our country was founded on, which inlcudes slavery, and the extradition of a native culture whos land we took over by force...

Why not remove the American flag?

Besides, Dukes of Hazzard fans would cry foul if the General Lee had its hood flag changed/removed for the upcoming movie :P

TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 06:30 PM (UTC) •

Wait a tick..a new Dukes of Hazzard movie is coming out? Really?? Is it another one of the made for TV's with the original cast, or is it an actual big screen movie? As much as it was cool seeing them re-united, now that Rosco(James Best) is gone as well as Boss Hogg(and Tom Wopat and John Schneider are gettin a lil bit up there in years for that type of role), and Uncle Jessie is dead too..it would make sense to have a movie with a whole new cast. I hope that is the case.

TheEvilWithin

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Every dog has his day.

•08/02/2004 06:52 PM (UTC) •

All right I guess I Have to do a history lesson here the resson the flag is cossed Rasist is that during the civil rights movment states like georgia where I live chaged there flag to the confederate war flag which we are talking about. This was use to show that the south would not chaged and the that jim crow laws will last forever It is not that fact it is the flag that the states of south rallyed under the it during war but of the rasist who rallyed under it during the civi rights moviment.

TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 07:05 PM (UTC) •

That is true, however that doesn't change the way I view the flag, as a part of my cultural heritage.

TheEvilWithin

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•08/02/2004 07:06 PM (UTC) •

All right Here I am to give every body a history lession in the Confederate War Flag Issue. Here the porblem that cause this flag to be condemed to be know as one of the most rasist flag ever. Its all because of the civil rights movement. At this time in history of the U.S.A the southeren state were faced with a porblem of there belif that black were not there equals. So one of there meny moves at this time was to chage there flag to the old war flag wich they had marched under during the Civil War. In this way the south trun in there hertige in for rasisim so to this day we can not use that flag because it reperst The Jim Crow laws of the past and to say that it is not rasim is to say that the sky is not blue. Sorry I tought the first post did not apper because I Hit back on accedit,

TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 07:10 PM (UTC) •

I'm sorry comrade, but we have the 1st Ammendment, and there is nothing that says we cannot use the flag. Just because a bunch of idiots during the civil rights movements used the flag(which like I have clearly stated was originally a symbol of rebellion against tyranny), that doesn't change what it means to me. I'm proud to be a Southerner, and I am not against the Confederacy Jack, which is part of my heritage.

It's as silly as saying we can't use the American flag because of the genocide committed against Native Americans under it, which by the way, slaughtering millions of people was on a whole other level of oppression then just segregation.

Godzilla

@Godzilla

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•08/02/2004 07:12 PM (UTC) •

I am from the State of New York, and frankly, I don't care whether or not someone has a confederate flag. The flag is a symbol of history. It was a particularly bad time in American history, but I have no objections to people using it.

Calling it racist is wrong, as there were many factors outside of slavery that sparked the Civil War. Also, racism didn't die out at the end of the war, as the economic and political status of black people didn't rise very much.

However, I do kind of get angry at how some Southerners I've met have treated the issue. They seemed to think that slavery was a noble cause, and that the world would be better if the south won and took over the North. I realize these are racists and an extremely small minority of southerners.

So in conclusion, if the Confederate flag is displayed as a part of Southern History, and not out of racism, I don't care if someone uses it.

you_suck

@you_suck

•08/02/2004 07:15 PM (UTC) •

TheTinMan2005 Wrote:
you_suck, even as a minority, understood what I was saying.

Okay...that was misinformation on my part...I'm not a minority--not exactly, anyway. I guess what I was saying came out wrong.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

TheTinMan2005

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Stay classy, MKO.

•08/02/2004 07:18 PM (UTC) •

Well, you_suck that sounds like me lol. I'm officially white, and I am like 70% White but I've also got Middle Eastern and Native American lineage. So I'm not really a minority, yet at the same time I am. It's a bit of a limbo as far as categorizing yourself, but I usually just say White.

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