TheTinMan2005 Wrote: And to the other person, if that is the case with overpopulation of an animal, then it should be taken care of in some other manner. We have a serious human overpopulation problem as well, should we resort to MURDER in this respect? Because thats what it is. Come on people, use your head.

A human life is worth far more than the life of a animal, now thats a ridiculous comparison. It isn't murder, because if it were, veterinarians would be charged with murder. Easy.

Also, how do you suggest we go about dealing with the mass animal overpopulation? It's very easy to criticize, but much more difficult to actually solve such problems.

Oh, you don't have a grocery store nearby? Unless you have no other access to a food source, it isn't feeding your family. And you did not reply to what I said. Its akin to murdering humans to solve our overpopulation problem. I am sure there are other methods of dealing with animal over population problems.

One way would be capturing and sterilizing females. Now I have heard before that this might cost too much time and money, which is bullshit. I do not place life below time and money. Part of the reason we seem to see animals in this light(if there are too many just kill them) is from the fact mankind is silly enough to still hold the assumption human life is somehow more valuable than other forms. This is in part, due to religion. Another reason I dispise that shit.

The deer has two options. Either lose(i.e. die), or break even. The deer cannot win in the situation. The hunter has two options, either win(kill the deer), or break even. I'm sorry but if the participants do not have the same possibilities as far as outcome, it is not a real 'sport'. Most of these hunters, I am sure, would not go into the hunting situation if that deer, also, is on an equal playing field. THAT, is why it is indeed chickenshit.

And by the way Subzeromaster, putting quotations around chickenshit does not make you seem intelligent.

So if you really beleive what you say about human life being equal to animal life, you would die to save 15 rats, just as you would die to save 15 humans?
And yes it is faaar to expensive and time consuming to capture and sterilize 30 million animals. A lot of animals breed like crazy, so it's just not the way to go. At all.
I'd much rather have that money spent on schools and such, and let hunters shoot the animals for sport.

One way would be capturing and sterilizing females. Now I have heard before that this might cost too much time and money, which is bullshit. I do not place life below time and money. Part of the reason we seem to see animals in this light(if there are too many just kill them) is from the fact mankind is silly enough to still hold the assumption human life is somehow more valuable than other forms. This is in part, due to religion. Another reason I dispise that shit.

Nor does 'sport'.

TheTinMan2005 Wrote: I'm sorry but if the participants do not have the same possibilities as far as outcome, it is not a real 'sport'. Most of these hunters, I am sure, would not go into the hunting situation if that deer, also, is on an equal playing field. THAT, is why it is indeed chickenshit. And by the way Subzeromaster, putting quotations around chickenshit does not make you seem intelligent.

And by no means am I trying to 'seem intelligent'. WTF does that mean?? Since when did putting quotes around something show intelligence? I was referring to what you said. Hence the quotes. That is what they are for right?

And it's masta, Dorothy.

Well I have explained it as clearly as possible, but alas, it doesn't matter. It seems to be futile, like I said, I really should not put too much faith in humanity.

I can walk down to the corner store, buy a sack of hammers, and have better luck explaining long division to that sack of hammers.

And I really do not care whether it's master or masta.
Btw, I am done with this thread.

0 no!!1 Ppl have different opinions!!!!

Tinman I have a question for you. Now I want you to think this over before you answer.

First off I see where you are coming from, and I think it's cool you care about wildlife that much. But here's the question.

How is a father and son out hunting/fishing that much worse than animals raised on a farm? Let me put out some points. I'll take veal as an example. Veal is basically a baby cow, that was well nurished, but not allowed to move. They are usually chained to the ground because the less execise they get, the more tender and loose the meat. Now that isn't much of a life, now is it? Then there are all of the uses a cow has once it's slaughtered. It's meat is obviously sold to eat, but it's hide goes on to make our leather couches, jackets, belts, pants, etc. Let's face it a cow on a farm is like a prisoner on death row, the only difference is the prisoner had a life of freedom for a while. Now back to the hunter and son duo. They go out on a Saturday morning looking to get themselves a deer. And they find one that isn't too young and isn't too old, and is pretty meaty. Now they bring the deer home, skin it and have enough venasine to last the family a week. Doesn't that seem more humane than raising it just to kill it. At least the deer had a chance.

What a well thought out response, skeleteonofsociety. You are a pretty bright guy.

Well, my response is, at heart, both ways are really as wrong as the other. And I, just as chan_ming, when I really think about where meat comes from, even raised on a farm, become disenchanted with my food.

I've thought a lot before of becoming a non meat eater. When our race first started out thousands of years ago, we were first hunters and gatherers. Then we became pastoral and agrarian. Now that I think this over, as we progress more, the next logical step on the ladder of evolution, is to not rely on the flesh of other animals to feed ourself.

This discussion, although at certain points frustrating(and I shouldn't become angry with people for ignorance, it is just as bad as their ignorance), has been fruitful. It has got me to seriously thinking over cutting meat out of my diet.

TheTinMan2005 Wrote: What a well thought out response, skeleteonofsociety. You are a pretty bright guy. Well, my response is, at heart, both ways are really as wrong as the other. And I, just as chan_ming, when I really think about where meat comes from, even raised on a farm, become disenchanted with my food. I've thought a lot before of becoming a non meat eater. When our race first started out thousands of years ago, we were first hunters and gatherers. Then we became pastoral and agrarian. Now that I think this over, as we progress more, the next logical step on the ladder of evolution, is to not rely on the flesh of other animals to feed ourself. This discussion, although at certain points frustrating(and I shouldn't become angry with people for ignorance, it is just as bad as their ignorance), has been fruitful. It has got me to seriously thinking over cutting meat out of my diet.

Thanks, that's actually the answer I was hoping to get.

I always appreciated the Native American perspective of hunting. Take only what you need, don't kill in excess, and pay your respects to the animal for the necessities it has provided for you. I've always found this the best approach.

But in today's society, hunting is a joke. The meat/fishing market is already killing in a horrible point of excess, and raising any form of cattle nullifies the point of hunting for food. Hutning use to be a necessary part of life. Now it's a bonding experience. Go figure.

Although I hate slaughtering methods of cattle a bit more, though.

Hey TemporaryUserName, I didn't know you became a mod. Congrats old friend. Remember back in the day when we had that wonderful thread going with Hyuga going about religion? A bunch of people flamed and messed it all up, contributing to the current ban on the topic.

I think my screen name was MK_AliAbdulRahman at the time, if I am not mistaken.

Either Temp just recently became a mod, or I've been out of the loop for a while....Or I may have know and I'm suffering from an awkward form of memory loss.....Congrats any way.

TheTinMan2005 Wrote: Well I have explained it as clearly as possible, but alas, it doesn't matter. It seems to be futile, like I said, I really should not put too much faith in humanity. I can walk down to the corner store, buy a sack of hammers, and have better luck explaining long division to that sack of hammers. And I really do not care whether it's master or masta. Btw, I am done with this thread.

That's too far.
We have different opinions, and thats cool. I can accpet that, and your opinion. I can even see where you're coming from to some extent.
To call somebody ignorant, and imply that they are stupid is childish. It was a fine discussion up untill then.

Calling people ignorant because they disagree with your opinion, is pretty "pot calling the kettle black" material, and there was really no need to get all pissy about it, or act superior.

TemperaryUserName Wrote: I always appreciated the Native American perspective of hunting. Take only what you need, don't kill in excess, and pay your respects to the animal for the necessities it has provided for you. I've always found this the best approach. But in today's society, hunting is a joke. The meat/fishing market is already killing in a horrible point of excess, and raising any form of cattle nullifies the point of hunting for food. Hutning use to be a necessary part of life. Now it's a bonding experience. Go figure. Although I hate slaughtering methods of cattle a bit more, though.

I agree with you 100% on that. Very well said. BTW, congrats on the mod position.

Anyway, the issue of animal rights is a very difficult one, both as a topic of debate and, for many, such as myself, on a personal level. In the realm of debate, there are two very blurry lines: one between rationality and barbarism, the other between compassion and lunacy. It's a conflict between the fundamental value of life, and the value of the smooth functioning of society. On a personal level, I have, at a couple points, considered vegetarianism, but...dammit, I love the taste of meat! But sometimes I feel like I'm supporting torture and murder by eating it...but it'd be so hard to just find vegetarian foods that don't suck, plus my parents (especially my dad) aren't very sympathetic to animal rights causes, so that makes it even harder...see, it sucks having to rationalize my eating habits...

TinMan I have always thought you present good arguements. You bring up a lot of good points in a lot of good threads. I respect your opinion.

However, it seems you don't respect others opinion. So what if you disagree with ppl, you have absolutely no right to call them 'idiots' and shit. That makes ur arguement seem pathetic man, and I know for a fact you know your stuff, so try to respect other peoples opinion, even if you don't agree with it.