I like it, I enjoy that you sued other Special Forces characters other than Tremor. I think this is a pretty good roster and I'd love it if this WERE the final roster.

I am not sure if I would like to see the two MK: Special Forces characters in it, as they have never been favourites of mine. I would rather replace them with Rain and Sareena or Tanya.

Also, I hope there won't be any new characters, because then the chance of having some characters to return from the other games would be lower. Otherwise, I like it. Especially the fact that you included Jade. ;P

I never really enjoyed Special Forces either.

The fact of the matter is, I'd be very shocked if the MK-team didn't include some new characters. It would be very unlike them. And, although I do think it would be a smart move to just focus on the old characters, I doubt that will happen.

The four "new characters" I included are merely placeholders. I used Tasia and Tremor, though, because I am guessing that the MK-team might circumvent the fact that some people want new characters and others want to focus on the older ones by included characters that have never been in fighting versions of the game before.

Of course I included Jade; I'd be shocked if she wasn't in the game.

And, I'd love to see Tanya and Sareena too (amongst a few others, namely Fujin, Bo' Rai Cho, Dairou and Reiko). I just doubt they'll be in the game (maybe Bo' Rai Cho, Tanya, and Sareena as DLCs).

Again, this is not necessarily what I want. This is my prediction.

You believe Liu Kang and Baraka won't be playable characters in the game at ALL, that Kintaro and Motaro won't even appear, and that Ed and co. have given any thought to making Special Forces characters canon?

I think that's a pretty bad prediction.

Yes. I believe that the MK-team might consider making characters from Special Forces canon. After all, Quan Chi, Fujin, and Shinnok from Mythologies were made canon; and Jarek was made canon from Special Forces.

And yes, I don't believe Motaro or Kintaro will make it into the game.

And, no, I think that we've seen a lot of Liu Kang and Baraka lately, and I don't think they'll make it into the game.

Furthermore, if you disagree with me, that's one thing, but you don't have to be an ass about it. There are plenty of tactful ways to say you disagree. You may disagree with my prediction, but patronizing rhetorical questions and blatant insulting of my thoughts are completely uncalled for.
Your own beliefs don't invalidate the beliefs of others.

Wait...what?

First of all, MK4 was made way before Special Forces was, so Jarek's not a Special Forces character, he's an MK4 character.

Second, Mythologies was always part of the storyline. Special Forces doesn't actually count as canon though, none of its plot or characters have ever been referenced in another MK game and it wasn't made by anyone who's still on the MK team. Tobias was the only one who cared about that project and he didn't even care enough to stick around and finish it properly. Ed Boon probably doesn't even know who Tasia is and I'm sure that in whatever notebook Vogel has where all the storyline is written down so he can keep track of everything, nowhere does the phrase "Eye of Shitian" appear, and Kano and Jax never heard of Outworld until MK2, much less traveled there before the first game. There is simply no proof that game ever really "happened".

And third, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just surprised by the blatant unlikelihood of some of your guesses. I mean at least Liu I understand, people whine about him all the time. But the team still would never leave him out of a retelling of MK 1 thru 3 even if history is being changed so he doesn't win the tournament. They still think of him as an important character. But Baraka? Look, I HATE Baraka...I'd love to never see him again...but the fact that he was in MK vs DCU, a roster specifically designed to be "the most iconic" characters, doesn't tell you anything about what the developers think of his place in the franchise?

If this topic is about who you WANT, that's one thing. But you said it's about predicting who NR studios will put in the game. But you're REALLY not thinking like Ed and co. do, you're still thinking like yourself.

There's not a whole lot to say MKSF specifically isn't canon, either.

Well Jax still basically acts like he's never believed in magic or been to Outworld before in Shaolin Monks, not that that game's canon either. He'll probably be the same way in this game's story mode though and that'll put it to rest once and for all.
The only reason they've never flat out said "SF's plot never happened" is probably a combination of "What plot? Who cares?" and "That game was so awful we'll never talk about it again". But in a series as constantly self-referential and continuity-heavy as MK, I pretty strongly believe the absence of evidence really is the evidence of absence. That and, like I said, it barely even counts as made by the MK staff. MKSF is closer to being like Belokk or a "Dave's Kool Stuff" cheat menu than it is to Mythologies.
But Tasia and Tremor weren't even the part that bugged me. Leaving Liu and Baraka out was. There's just no possible way they won't be in the game. It's simply absurd.

Hah! That would be great if being self-referential and continuity-heavy actually amounted to more than a handful of reiterated designs, retcons, and the occasional ham-fisted callback, or contextual assumption.

That theory depends specifically on nothing.
MK's a checklist storyline with massive chasms between it's important moments! There's a precedent set to take moments as they come as fact, but that's never meant assuming the unmentioned never happened. The relative disdain for MKSF is more evidence than not referring to a prequel with sub-plots that have little relevance to contemporary storylines. Nevermind the fact that there are plenty of canonical beats that aren't awkwardly reiterated after they happen.

Cherrypicking based on personal preference is fine, but there's very little canonical fact to negate MKSF's existence. It might not have told the story fans wanted, or expected -- partly because of those production issues already mentioned -- but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It doesn't mean it's set in stone, either, but that goes without saying.
Anyone who knows MK knows things are subject to change.

Lord knows the kids love Tremor! Wouldn't be the first time MK made a decision to incorporate something based on fan hooplah.

RE Edit: Very little of MKSF's plot has anything to do with magic, so it's fine for his character to still be resistant to believing right up to the second or third act of MKII. I'm not sure I'd put too much stock in characterization, though. Jax used to be more of a military hardnut, too. Awwwww yeeeahhh.

I agree, though. Those characters over Liu Kang and Baraka would obviously be pretty nutty. I'm all for not throwing anything useful away, though. I like the potential of MKSF and it's characters and would personally be pretty happy to see them used again. A character like Tremor obviously has a lot of potential to explore and could be elaborated on in the way we associate with the playable fighters, while the others might be fun in a smaller support role, ala Jataaka and Kia in Armageddon's Konquest mode. Although, really, I don't know what we'd get out of doing this in MK2011 where the focus is on familiar redundancy circa the early nineties.

I'd dig a better made MKSF2, though!

You argue that I have no proof it's non-canon, but you have no proof that it IS canon, while I at least have mild circumstantial evidence.
We know MK1, 2, 3, 4, DA, and Deception happened because the games that came after reference those events.

We know Armageddon happened because Deception Unchained referenced it and we've been told the new game's backstory will too.

We know Mythologies happened because MK4 thru Armageddon reference those characters and events.

We know Shaolin Monks did NOT happen, because material that came after reference MK2 events that didn't happen in Shaolin Monks - specifically, Scorpion's vow of protection to Younger Sub-Zero. That and, obviously, all the character deaths were a deliberate part of the plot, but all of those characters are still alive in MK3.

But in NO game except MKSF are the Special Forces' missions directed by a woman named Gemini, and in no other games does Jax give the impression that he had ever heard of portals or realms prior to MK2. There isn't even one single Special Forces reference in the Krypt fluff, not even among all the screenshots of merchandise and fanart and old awards and pages from comics and the box covers and select screens and MK4 ending videos...it's like Ed and co. are deliberately pretending the game was never even MADE.

Look, I'm not AGAINST Tremor or Tasia ever appearing in a game. I would actually LIKE to see a second attempt at telling the Sonya/Jax/Kano backstory, where those Black Dragon members could indeed be reused and this time made a real part of the MK universe...
I just don't believe Ed would actually in a million years put them in MK9, because I get the distinct impression that he doesn't actually know or care who those characters are. That's my whole point. The topic SAYS it's not about personal preference, it's about predicting what NR Studios will do.

You have proof that elements of those games, most of which are numerically aligned, are part of a linear story progression. Many of them contain sub-plots, but obviously, those are rarely the crux of the game.

Conventional creative wisdom justifies MKSF under it's own terms, as if it should even need to be pointed out that your theory depends on nothing, the absence of something, where the integral relationship between MKM/MK4 should be recognised as unique, and the note of exception, at least in terms of broader common sense.

Most MK games aren't dependent on retroactive information. If you really wanted to put the entirety of the game's weight on connections -- which should already be recognised as an arbitrary distinction -- then you could talk about it elaborating on the fiction and cast of the Special Forces and Black Dragon, which in chronological order, were zoomed in on in MK1+. You could talk about the precedent it sets up for technological upgrades in the MKSF, ala; prototype cybernetic arms. You could say MK1 elaborates on Kano's relationship with Outworld and how he comes into connection with the powers of Shang Tsung, which would be a second link in a chain that sees him then work for Shao Kahn, and so on. You're perhaps too stuck in thinking about the context of sequels to remember that it's a prequel and should be looked at from an inverted perspective.

Those facts and references exist to be recognised, but really shouldn't be the crux of an argument that MKSF's canonical existence hasn't been debunked or negated. It simply hasn't. It's there to be taken for granted as you or I would take our lives before this moment for granted, or it might have some future relevance in a major franchise that might want to revisit and take further ownership of it's creative licenses.

As usual, this is just a ridiculous conversation that needn't be laboured upon. It's about the hypothetical and obviously there's no reason to definitively proclaim MKSF is erased from the canon. It certainly might be subject to negation. That's fine, too. It isn't the most important, or well conceived) moment in MK history, but it's there. More power to those individuals who would have the creative foresight or flexibility to think beyond a single rut of concept.



so u agree wit mah commentz bout dis thred? Kewl.

No it doesn't. A story that makes sense and that people care about justifies its own existence. MKSF is none of those things AND it's not even a complete product, AND it wasn't even made by the people currently making the games.


This may be the most absurd and incorrect thing you've ever said to me. EVERY MK game's plot after the first is reliant, some more heavily than others, on something that happened in a previous game and NOT always the game that came immediately before.

There's absolutely no logic in saying the connective-ness between Mythologies/MK4 is "unique" or the exception to the rule. It in fact has the exact characteristics of PROOF of the rule.

Seriously?... Wow.


I'm pretty John Tobias -- the guy who initiated the project and steered it in it's conceptual direction -- worked on MK at some point in time. I'm not entirely sure, I might have to do some research, but I think that's right. He might not have seen it through to it's conclusion, but he certainly initiated it, allowing for the basic narrative of the game to be completed.

Apparently you haven't read a story, but sometimes people write things that aren't direct sequels. These often utilize existing properties, but don't require direct association with other products. They are justified unto themselves, which is potentially how MK2011 will work, to relate back to the original subject of the thread for the barest of moments.


Way to know what retroactive means, champ.
I forgot about all those other integral spin-off games, though. Good call about MKM not being unqiue. :-))))

Mebbe cud take some creative writing 101 courses somewhere?? :-))))
I refuse to believe common sense could be so thoroughly disregarded, especially with how selective (and misguided) replies are getting. I'm assuming this is just another thread that's become arguing for the sake of arguing, so I'mma split, yo. Apologies to the original poster for indulging this discussion to these ends.

Little dickish to get cute about reading comprehension when you're the one missing the point.
For one thing, you're thinking of Mythologies as "a spin-off", whereas I'm thinking of Mythologies as "a Mortal Kombat product whose events are talked about in all the Mortal Kombat products that came out after." In that context, it's not unique at all. It proves the rule of how we define what is and isn't in-continuity. Further proof of the rule is the endings in the fighting games. You said that absence doesn't prove something's not canon, but in Mortal Kombat, the very way we know which characters' arcade endings did and didn't happen is by noting which ones' events are mentioned in later games and which ones aren't.

Like I keep saying and you keep ignoring: EVERY canon game has references to the canon games that came out before it somewhere. The fact that Special Forces is the ONLY MK game that has never been called back to is extremely telling whether you want to admit it or not.

But...honestly, this isn't that big a deal. I also apologize for this argument going on as long as it has and commandeering the thread.

Wauw, I actually didn't notice that either Baraka or Liu Kang is in the roster. I feel ashamed of myself. I think both of them should definately return. Baraka is important to Kung Lao's and Mileena's plotline in MK2 and is overall a cool character in himself. I mean, the Tarkata are the fiercest and most brutal force that Shao Kahn has, Baraka being the most badass of them all. If he doesn't return, then I would be disappointed.

And Liu Kang... well, he's always been around one way or the other, except for MKDA. However, he is an important character in the MK1-3 plotline, so of course he will return.

I am not sure why you use "We have seen alot of them lately" as an arguement for them not returning...

This can't be a serious guess at the roster. The fact we've seen "too much" of Liu Kang and Baraka doesn't mean a lot (we've seen a lot of Scorpion too); they were both in MKvs.DCU and I would be shocked if every single one of those character didn't return for this game. The inclusion of Tasia and Tremor is puzzling, because that would make the Black Dragon/Special Forces storyline pretty much the most important in the game, with 3 (arguably 4) Black Dragon and 2 from Special Forces. I don't see that as realistic really.

Yeah. If they weren't going to shoe horn less important characters into MKA (which didn't include any characters who haven't been in the fighting games, duhz), then they've surely got next to no chance in MK2011.
Shame. Mighta been kewl 2 C tha gods from MKM next to Fujin n Raiden in tha funkee new timeline.

Gotta think Stryker's more of a chance than those guys!

I believe those guys are meant to have died offscreen during the war with Shinnok in MK4. Raiden and Fujin's bios both call them "one of the last surviving gods of Earth"

Not that I wouldn't be opposed to one of them returning. Preferably the Fire God, he had a pretty cool design. Earth and Water were too bland though, just a naked bald guy made of water and a big rock monster. Meh. And for variety's sake, at least one of the four really ought to have been female.

Eh. I don't like this roster. We don't need any special forces characters. That game sucked (yes I have played it). No need to reference it.

Liu Kang and Baraka will both be in the game. I'd bet my house on it. This game is during the story line of MK 1 - 3 in which Liu Kang was a MAIN character. I don't understand why there's a the hate for him anyway, he's the classic "chosen one" character, in a classic game.

I really don't want tremor. We have enough elemental ninjas.

Lack of Liu Kang and Baraka just makes this a nasty roster for me.

EDIT: I just read the debate going on in this thread. I just have to say. I agree with Razor here. It's so absolutely blatant that the MK team has been disregarding MK:SF over the years.

Look at Deception's conquest mode. There were SO many characters to interact with, and discover. MEAT, a character many considered to be a joke or a glitch was even revealed to be of canon. NOT ONE SINGLE special forces character was present, referenced or even subtly hinted at in that whole event.

Now look at Armageddon's roster. We even got Khameleon and Chameleon. Fans BEGGED for Tremor, and we got nothing, not even a note of consideration.

You're clearly biased, so why are you trying to defend such a point as if it was coming from such a neutral ground?

Tremor has an extremely small outside chance of making a game roster some day. It definitely won't be this game though. The reason I say he has a chance is because fans actually requested him in Armageddon, so much so that a representative had to confirm he wasn't going to be in the game. I still doubt he'll ever make a formal appearance, but the outcry for him had to open some eyes in the MK team that people really are fascinated with this brown/tan ninja, for whatever reason.

No lui Kang? And I think 4 new characters are two much, two are enough and the other two spots should be lui kang and Motaro. And chances are high that baraka will be in.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again. Tasia and Tremor were just place-holders. I think the MK team will include some previously unplayable characters as playable in this one to circumvent the fact that they don't want to add too many new characters, but still want to add some.

Secondly, don't call me biased because you disagree with my assessment. I hate Tremor and Tasia and don't want them in the game. I don't like the idea of anyone using two katanas (Tasia) and I always found Tremor boring. I just used them as examples (and because there was always a strong push for them to appear in the fighting games).

And the plot line is changing, and I'm betting on the fact that Liu Kang will be dead before the game starts. And, as for Baraka, if we discount Trilogy, he wasn't very active in MK1-3; and he's been in a lot of games lately (Shaolin Monks, Deception, DCU); I think they're going to give him a break - he's not as much of a signature character as some of the others that have also been in the three most recent games.

Why the hell does that make me biased? Just because you think I'm wrong doesn't mean I'm not trying to be objective.

I think he meant Mick's biased, not you.

That's correct. I was referencing the debate on MK:SF. Not your roster selection.