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Icebaby
09/25/2011 04:47 AM (UTC)
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I agree with Espio here, by a lot. I like something you don't. I shouldn't get degraded by you because you happen to dislike this story way too much, nor should anyone else that likes this story. That's like the whole stupid incident where people were hating on other users because they liked the introduction of Freddy Krueger.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
You think it's "petulant" because you think comparing the story to shit is an extreme exaggeration. But I do NOT think it's an exaggeration. I genuinely do feel like I'm watching people eat a shit sandwich and then smile at the taste.

That's how I've felt since May and that's how I'll feel when I'm 80 years old. Sure, maybe they'll re-reboot or there'll be better sequels or I don't know, Mortal Kombat as a franchise won't always be shit, I'm certain of that, and maybe I'll be a fan of whatever they're doing in the present when I'm 80. But when I look back at MK9 in specific, I'll always think of a game whose story was an utter failure in EVERY category and criteria I judge writing by.


You are entitled to your opinion every step of the way, and I do not think anyone who doesn't like this story has bad taste. Everyone has their opinions, even if theirs is something I don't agree with, I'm not going to say, "You're an idiot for liking something that totally sucks." But seriously though, no one here should be mocked or made fun of because people have different taste in literature/art/etc. I'm an artist/writer/animator, I shouldn't be ridiculed for liking something that seems so pathetic due to poor writing.

Because this isn't Twilight.
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 10:34 AM (UTC)
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Espio872 Wrote:
You're disrespecting other people's opinions


Well gosh golly gee whillikers, I sure am sorry about that. It's a shame that I can't help the fact that their opinion shocks and offends me and that when things shock and offend me, I'm compelled to speak out against them. Nothing I've said is crossing the line into flaming though, so I think maybe I'll just keep right on expressing my feelings if that's alright with you.
I don't dislike people who defend story mode as a person. I'm just saying I think they have bad taste or low standards in the singular category of storytelling. Since there's no rule in the world, or on this board, that I HAVE to be nice to other people about their opinions, I don't see anything wrong with that.
And I speak up like I do because I feel as though defending the work or saying "this was good enough for me" encourages NRS to not try harder, to say "well they liked it, so this is good enough, this is where the bar is", and even for GOOD works, the bar should always keep raising higher and higher because if a creator doesn't have any reason to acknowledge their flaws/mistakes, try harder, and get better, who does that benefit?
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Espio872
09/25/2011 03:35 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Well gosh golly gee whillikers, I sure am sorry about that. It's a shame that I can't help the fact that their opinion shocks and offends me and that when things shock and offend me, I'm compelled to speak out against them. Nothing I've said is crossing the line into flaming though, so I think maybe I'll just keep right on expressing my feelings if that's alright with you.


Oh dear, now you're implying that I'm trying to silence you, unbelieveable. I just thought that since we're all adults here, it wouldn't be a crazy notion to have a dialogue that is actually conducive to discussion, apparently not.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:I don't dislike people who defend story mode as a person. I'm just saying I think they have bad taste or low standards in the singular category of storytelling. Since there's no rule in the world, or on this board, that I HAVE to be nice to other people about their opinions, I don't see anything wrong with that.


Yes there's no rule for common courtesy, I just assumed it would be a logical approach to any situation of serious discussion, my fault.

And on that note I'm done, I have no intention of derailing this thread nor do I feel this discussion is going in a productive direction.



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Icebaby
09/25/2011 03:52 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Well gosh golly gee whillikers, I sure am sorry about that. It's a shame that I can't help the fact that their opinion shocks and offends me and that when things shock and offend me, I'm compelled to speak out against them. Nothing I've said is crossing the line into flaming though, so I think maybe I'll just keep right on expressing my feelings if that's alright with you.


Telling people who like this game's story that they also like garbage material seems a bit harsh of an opinion, don't you think? Despite that you're not flaming anyone, you're basically bashing other people's taste in art and that is something I am not going to tolerate. There is a difference between speaking out about how badly this game's story is and speaking out towards people who like it. Let them fucking like the story without you criticizing your opinions that if they appreciated this story, they have no taste in what good art is. People judge art differently than you... How you don't quite understand that appalls me.

Your artwork is different, and if others judge your work as horrible work, do they have good taste or are they just liking garbage?


RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
I don't dislike people who defend story mode as a person. I'm just saying I think they have bad taste or low standards in the singular category of storytelling. Since there's no rule in the world, or on this board, that I HAVE to be nice to other people about their opinions, I don't see anything wrong with that.


Except, what you're doing is wrong in a way because you're mocking their taste in literature. People have the right to like something and dislike something, and if it bothers you that badly that there are people here that appreciates the story, let them be without being so harsh to them and ridicule in a way where its saving your ass from getting a skull point. You don't know good art all the time, neither does anyone else on this site, good art to them is good art, bad art to them is bad are. Either way, an opinion isn't right or wrong, its how they look at things from their perspective. You shouldn't get all defensive and tell them they're wrong, they have poor taste, when you could very well be the person that has the wrong taste.

So either way, shut up about it if you don't appreciate people that likes this story. You can be defensive about how badly the story is, but when you're being critical towards other people, then you need to kindly knock it off.


RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
And I speak up like I do because I feel as though defending the work or saying "this was good enough for me" encourages NRS to not try harder, to say "well they liked it, so this is good enough, this is where the bar is", and even for GOOD works, the bar should always keep raising higher and higher because if a creator doesn't have any reason to acknowledge their flaws/mistakes, try harder, and get better, who does that benefit?


Do you work for NS? Do you know the people very well to where they're your best buddies? No you don't, so how can you sit and type out that if we encourage the work, they'll not try harder. I don't think NS cares about what makes people buys this game. They care more about how much this game sold in game stores and if its a huge number, they'll go out to Bourbon Street and get drunk right on the spot. The sales this game gets doesn't depend on what people are buying the game for. That's not how the market this game, "Oh please buy this game, the more you guys buy this game, the more we'll understand that the story we've written was the best in the series."

Yeah, I totally don't see that. It's one game that's coming from a new timeline, it's one story... They have many more chances to improve the story. Give it time, and maybe next time don't read the spoilers so you're not disappointed right before the game is in your hand.


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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 03:53 PM (UTC)
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Espio872 Wrote:
Yes there's no rule for common courtesy, I just assumed it would be a logical approach to any situation of serious discussion, my fault.


Normally, perhaps, but in a discussion about this particular topic, politeness would impede honesty on my part. There's really no nice way to say "eating a shit sandwich with a smile" without losing the whole metaphor and I really do think it's an accurate metaphor. I wanted ham and cheese, I'm used to getting ham and cheese from these people, and this year what they gave me instead of ham and cheese was inedible, smelled bad, and may have been pulled out of someone's ass.
Anyway, Icebaby, you seem bent on using this whole "I'm an artist too" or "what if someone dislikes your art?" thing as a defense and I find that distasteful.
First of all, a script is not an abstract painting or a poem. It's not that kind of art, it's got a point A, point B, and point C that can be analyzed according to set rules and conventions. There are objective standards on which a piece of writing like this can be judged, matters of logic and consistency and goals and whether or not they were accomplished. And they're not complicated rules either, they're simple shit you don't have to go to college or be a writer to see, which is why it's so painful to me that the paid professionals at NRS could make some of the mistakes they did. A story with large, noticeable plotholes and internal continuity errors is objectively poorly written, whether you subjectively still liked it or not. And secondly, I would never claim that my analysis is more right because I'm a writer and I know the rules better than everyone else or some shit like that, you and I are both amateurs for one thing, and for another, the evidence I present when I argue what's wrong with the story should be able to stand on its own merits and should be things any layman can see and agree with.
If I consider my analysis truer than someone else's, it would be because I went into more detail and presented better evidence, not because of some special skill or perspective that only I have. Anyone can see the same shit that I've seen wrong with this thing, and many people on this board have, so I clearly don't have any special insight, except that I might be angrier about the damn thing.
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Icebaby
09/25/2011 04:29 PM (UTC)
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I know script writing, I took a class about it literally last semester so I know what it's about. I WILL throw out the whole, "If people doesn't like your art, do they have bad taste," because you're always making it seem that you're confidentially right about EVERYTHING, when you're not. Just because you tend to look things a bit more than the usual fan doesn't mean you're the best user on this site. So you have extreme knowledge about this game, a lot of people don't. But they don't need to be told and scolded by you that if they liked this story, they don't know what good art is if it bit them in the rear end. That's a horrible way to judge people and I, for one, will not tolerate such bullshit.

People have good taste and some don't. But I don't need to see, time after time after time when the story topic comes up into threads and people are saying, "I liked it," "I liked it," someone comes in, tells them they have poor taste and they don't know what they're talking about, they're making NS realize that their amateur writing skills are perfectly fine and they should continue writing like this. That's a dumb thing to do, no offense.

And I will throw in the whole, I'm an artist, going to school to become an animator and trying to obtain an internship to WB since I live right near them because you say it too. Why should I be constricted to not say it but you can to make a point? Am I not an artist like yourself? Am I not an artist in general? Been drawing for nineteen straight years of my life, I have as much as right to throw out, "I'm an artist, I know what good art and bad at is... Even though I rarely find bad art anyways..." Still, why can't I say it too?

To actually be on topic here..

This whole story where Raiden is trying to prevent Armageddon was a good story and even though there were some parts that I did not like, some parts I wished they extended, some parts I wished didn't occurred... It was still one good story coming out of the whole MKvsDC game. They did the best they could do for their first time "rebooting" the series. I cannot wait what happens to all of these characters in the next game and hoping that they continue improving the story for when we get news on if there's a next game.
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 04:43 PM (UTC)
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Being an artist doesn't make you a skilled artist and it doesn't automatically make you right.

After all, we're discussing a product that was made by writers and artists more experienced than either of us who finished their schooling and actually get paid to produce their work.

...And a dozen or more people on this board, some of them having never written or drawn anything in their own lives, I'm sure, have spent four months straight pointing out and complaining about the giant, obvious flaws in that work.
Skill is what makes you skilled, only facts can make you right, and you don't have to be a creator to be a critic, anyone can do that.
But just for the record, since you asked, when people don't like my own work, I welcome the criticism. That's how you improve, by knowing what you did wrong so you can fix it. If something I wrote had a plothole, or a drawing of mine has poor anatomy or something like that, I like to be let known about it right the hell away so I can patch it in another draft.
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Icebaby
09/25/2011 05:09 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Being an artist doesn't make you a skilled artist and it doesn't automatically make you right.

After all, we're discussing a product that was made by writers and artists more experienced than either of us who finished their schooling and actually get paid to produce their work.

...And a dozen or more people on this board have spent four months straight pointing out and complaining about the giant, obvious flaws in that work.

Skill is what makes you skilled and only facts can make you right.


People can point out as many flaws as they can find in a story, what bothered them and what they liked. But it's not a horrible story to some and if people tend to think that way, it's not a fact that this story sucked if there are people who actually did like this.

I only threw out the whole, "I'm an artist too," line because you throw it out there like you know what's good and what's bad and everyone needs to agree with your words. Unfortunately, no one here has to be an artist to know what is good art and what is bad. I know a handful of people who can't even draw stick figures that tells me what good art and bad art is to them. I can't say, "your taste in art is certainly a horrible one," if they happen to like art that I find distasteful, it's their opinion, and I can't force them to see what's good and what's bad because I'm an artist myself and I know what's good and what's bad. I can't change people's opinions to like something that they don't because I like it... That's not the kind of person that I am.

Such with anime. Some people like it, I disgustingly hate it too much... But I'm not going to call them an idiot because they liked it..

People point out flaws, to them that's what they didn't like. But just because a handful of people agree with you that the story is horrible doesn't mean it's officially a horrible story. They just didn't like the story and you happen to be one of those who didn't. And then there's a handful of people that actually did like the story, so of course, they're going to think that this game went somewhere good for once. Neither side is right.
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 05:13 PM (UTC)
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Icebaby Wrote:
because you throw it out there like you know what's good and what's bad and everyone needs to agree with your words.


No I fucking don't and I'm insulted you'd say so. What I throw out are REASONS something is good or bad and I make sure those reasons are as clinical and scientific as I am capable of being when discussing something that's not an exact science.

You are the one who THINKS my attitude comes from skill-related ego. My attitude comes from a preference for logic and reason over emotion and opinion, and an actual recorded history of actually having been right about a lot of things. Not everything, I know I've lost arguments or made bad guesses at times, especially before MK9 came out, when every topic was about trying to figure out what the story would be like before we knew. But still, a pretty good track record overall, all available for anyone bored enough to play around in the search function.
And none of it because I fell back on "just trust me to know what I'm talking about because I'm an artist", when I'm right, it's because I presented actual evidence.
And I hope you realize that earlier, you admitted without shame or insult that you actually do rarely dislike ANYthing. So why is it suddenly an insult if I say you have low standards, when those words mean the same damned thing as what you said?
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RedSumac
09/25/2011 06:01 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Icebaby Wrote:
because you throw it out there like you know what's good and what's bad and everyone needs to agree with your words.


No I fucking don't and I'm insulted you'd say so. What I throw out are REASONS something is good or bad and I make sure those reasons are as clinical and scientific as I am capable of being when discussing something that's not an exact science.

You are the one who THINKS my attitude comes from skill-related ego.

For me it looks like that most of the time your actions realted to your EGO in general, not just the fact that you are an artist.

And your "high standarts" is not something that classified and could be considered as "low standarts" by other people. In fact basically everything that have to do with art could not be definitely classified as good or bad. But it's always simple to divide everything (and everyone) to black and white.
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 06:06 PM (UTC)
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RedSumac Wrote:
In fact basically everything that have to do with art could not be definitely classified as good or bad.


Again, not true. There ARE some objective, scientific criteria that apply to storytelling and script writing, unlike other, more abstract and "up for interpretation" forms of art like painting a picture or writing a poem. Come to think of it, even some poetry and music has concrete rules, like rhyme schemes or verses and stanzas, or how a haiku always has to be three lines of 5, 7, and 5 syllables.
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RedSumac
09/25/2011 06:12 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
RedSumac Wrote:
In fact basically everything that have to do with art could not be definitely classified as good or bad.


Again, not true. There ARE some objective, scientific criteria that apply to storytelling and script writing, unlike other forms of art like painting a picture or writing a poem.

Those objectives created by humans. Essentially it means, unless there are robot-like creatures, that they criteria and objectives could not be considered as 100% truth, since there always will be people who see this criteria as non-essential and biased.

As for Raiden as the main character - I don't mind. He is more interesting than plain Liu Kang ever was and I like how he was portrayed in MK9. Of course adding some movie or Conquest bits in his character would be a good idea.
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Icebaby
09/25/2011 06:38 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Icebaby Wrote:
because you throw it out there like you know what's good and what's bad and everyone needs to agree with your words.


No I fucking don't and I'm insulted you'd say so. What I throw out are REASONS something is good or bad and I make sure those reasons are as clinical and scientific as I am capable of being when discussing something that's not an exact science.

You are the one who THINKS my attitude comes from skill-related ego. My attitude comes from a preference for logic and reason over emotion and opinion, and an actual recorded history of actually having been right about a lot of things. Not everything, I know I've lost arguments or made bad guesses at times, especially before MK9 came out, when every topic was about trying to figure out what the story would be like before we knew. But still, a pretty good track record overall, all available for anyone bored enough to play around in the search function.

And none of it because I fell back on "just trust me to know what I'm talking about because I'm an artist", when I'm right, it's because I presented actual evidence.

And I hope you realize that earlier, you admitted without shame or insult that you actually do rarely dislike ANYthing. So why is it suddenly an insult if I say you have low standards, when those words mean the same damned thing as what you said?


You stated once before to some user that you're the greatest user on this site. No sir, you are not the greatest user on this site. And I am going to take this reason to throw out there because yes, I do think you have the tendency to shove your ego out there, whether or not you just stated how you describe your reasons for your opinions. You have this giant ego that thinks because you're the one that has the most knowledge you know EVERYTHING about this game, and thinking that once you claim something is bad, it's officially a bad game because the writing isn't up to your standards. And I can say that because I am not the only person who clearly sees this.

You always state things with "science" and "great knowledge," that one minor flaw in the game's story, it's a shame for anyone to basically sit here and type, "I think this game's story is great!" If I am the only one sitting here claiming so, how come others have pointed out that you are insulting opinions of others? I am not insulting you, nor do I think you're a miserable user. I'm sitting here with a headache I've been fighting off for the past three days, sitting next to my boyfriend reading up on how to become a chemistry high school teacher thinking that you're just a person who hates it when people like bad art, and the bad art is coming from your perspective. Even though in general, there is no clear definition of what "bad art" truly is.

I like this game for what it gave me. Sure, there are a few things I didn't like about the game, but I'm not going to go to great lengths to insult people by thinking that their opinions of hating this game means that they like garbage material such as Superman 64 and Plumbers Don't Wear Ties.

I've read stories from video games that go way south from this game's story. Believe me.

I am not here to insult you or to put you down, but I will not tolerate people to say that if someone likes something that you don't like, they shouldn't be judged or mocked because they like something that you greatly despise. I find that to be wrong. Not everyone here judges this game due to its story, not everyone here judges this game due to its game play, not everyone here judges this game due to the material featured in this game. Its how they want to view the game, and if they like something that no one else likes, well then they shouldn't get laughed at or picked on because others disagree. As much as I can go into great lengths in debating this, I feel that I could just go on and on and on... Unfortunately it's taking up way too much of the main topic, so I am just going to stop here.
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XxOutworlds_GoddessxX
09/25/2011 06:48 PM (UTC)
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i personally wished the story revolved around Liu, Kitana, Sonya, and Johnny.
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 07:02 PM (UTC)
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Icebaby Wrote:
You stated once before to some user that you're the greatest user on this site.


Now that is definitely a misquote. I don't know what post you're getting that from, but I'm certain I never said whatever it is you thought you read. You kinda have a bad habit of misreading my words, this would be far from the first time. Maybe I said I was the best at a certain specific thing, which is completely different from what you're saying I said.

And here's another giant misunderstanding on your part: I never said MK9 the GAME sucks. I've never even said everything about Story MODE sucks, the music, voice acting, and visuals are all very well done. What I HAVE actually been saying for months is the SCRIPT and PLOT sucks.

I've also criticized some costume designs and fatalities, but that's neither here nor there in the long run, the point is that MK9 is a good GAME, but a bad STORY.

And some of the reasons I call it bad ARE simply opinion-based, like the whole killing most of the cast thing...but a LOT of the reasons it fails are based in actual fact and logic, the inability to make events that happen in it happen for reasons that make sense, the inability to keep consistent continuity within itself from scene to scene OR between it and the games it presents itself not as a true fresh-start reboot of, but as a sequel to. These are quantifiable things, things that can't be defined in terms of "like" and "dislike" but in "right" and "wrong". A story should not contradict itself, that's not my opinion, that's literally how writing WORKS.

And just because they didn't fuck up as bad as the guys who made Superman 64 doesn't mean their fuckups don't count. They happened. A bad story is no less bad just because worse stories exist. A bad story isn't made better because it happened in a video game instead of in a movie or book, or because it happened in a fighting game instead of an RPG, those are imaginary excuses that have no reason to exist, it's something people invent for themselves to justify accepting less than the best.

The standards should be the same for everything. There's no reason a fighting game can't have the same kinds of cutscenes an RPG can, or an animated movie can, since CGI videos and the gameplay that happens between the CGI videos are two separate things.
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Icebaby
09/25/2011 07:12 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
but a LOT of the reasons it fails are based in actual fact and logic


Well at least there is one thing we can agree upon, since I know for a fact that logic and Mortal Kombat certainly do not go together.

But I am not here to argue more about the situation, since I basically said I'm done because I can see that we're no longer talking about the topic of the thread.

Though I am more willing to continue the argument privately, though I doubt you want to still debate about this. So, I'm letting the ball sit in your court for right now.


grin
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 07:24 PM (UTC)
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Icebaby Wrote:
since I know for a fact that logic and Mortal Kombat certainly do not go together.


That's untrue and you know it. The games kept a narrative that made perfect sense for well over a decade. Plotholes and unresolvable contradictions are NOT common enough to be accepted-as-norm for the franchise unless you're only referring to the lazy shit they started pulling like Shaolin Monks and Armageddon, which is obviously a problem of RECENT years and not a natural part of all Mortal Kombat games.
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Icebaby
09/25/2011 07:45 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Icebaby Wrote:
since I know for a fact that logic and Mortal Kombat certainly do not go together.


That's untrue and you know it. The games kept a narrative that made perfect sense for well over a decade. Plotholes and unresolvable contradictions are NOT common enough to be accepted-as-norm for the franchise unless you're only referring to the lazy shit they started pulling like Shaolin Monks and Armageddon, which is obviously a problem of RECENT years and not a natural part of all Mortal Kombat games.


There's hardly any decent logic in this game, and I'm constantly reminded every time I make one tiny speculation or ask a question about something that could hold a great amount of logic, it gets shunned down by people, who have a great amount of evidence, to prove to me that logic and this game do not mix whatsoever.

Not just in the story, but other elements as well.
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RazorsEdge701
09/25/2011 07:52 PM (UTC)
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Oh really? Care to be specific? Everything in the canon story from MK Mythologies up to Deception (and frankly, even most of Armageddon) is perfectly logical to me and you know how I love to try to be helpful and explain things to other people.
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Espio872
09/25/2011 07:56 PM (UTC)
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The direction of this discussion is not good, it's getting personal, far too personal everyone please calm down and get back on topic
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GodlyShinnok
09/25/2011 08:36 PM (UTC)
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Raiden does not work as the main character, that's Johnny Cage's job.
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Icebaby
09/25/2011 09:04 PM (UTC)
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Espio872 Wrote:
The direction of this discussion is not good, it's getting personal, far too personal everyone please calm down and get back on topic


Well, I just want to add that my intentions of what I've been saying was never meant to be personal towards anyone. Just trying to show that everyone here has to understand that there's opinions and they need to be respected. Those who liked the story of this game should not be insulted or ridiculed because others tend to think that the story was horrible or whatever element of the game they didn't like. I did think this conversation was okay in here since it was relevant to the topic since its talking about the story here. So, if anyone thought it was off-topic, in some direction yes, in others no.

However...

I would tell you, Razor, what I find to be not making sense or whatever, holds no logic or whatever, but that is a totally different topic and since I do not feel like that is important here, I don't need to state it.

To whoever said about Johnny Cage having the part of being the main character, I will agree to that!


grin
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RedSumac
09/25/2011 09:29 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
The standards should be the same for everything. There's no reason a fighting game can't have the same kinds of cutscenes an RPG can, or an animated movie can, since CGI videos and the gameplay that happens between the CGI videos are two separate things.

No.
Standards and classification are the shittiest ideas ever that kill imagination and beauty of creating something.
We are not machines and the world doesn't consist form "black" and "white" or "1" and "0" to be disected in such abysmal manner. Especially when it comes to imagination.

There are quite a lot of vagueness in MK storyline. Like what with all MKD nonsense in Konquest? That's an example of good story? Did Cage died or not? What the deal with Shinnok's amulet, was it Quan Chi all along?
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MKRaiden22
09/25/2011 11:27 PM (UTC)
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Little to no questions and plot holes in the original MK story? wowwowwow Hahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahaaaaaa!!!!! Man puh-lease.....Don't even get me started......

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Sub-Zero_7th
09/26/2011 01:30 AM (UTC)
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Well, there's been a hell of a debate in here. Although it makes for Raiden to change the past to prevent Armageddon, the execution was terrible, and the story of this game assassinated his character in the process. NRS really needs to take a better approach in how to do the "main character" concept. Develop the character into the role throughout multiple installments and give us good reasons to care about the character so that we can really invest him/her.
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