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Espio872
01/14/2012 04:47 PM (UTC)
0
Cold_Cell Wrote:
SO

let me get this straight...

Mortal Kombat and it's cheesy, craptastic script nab a nom,

but Portal 2's masters of the written word get ignored.

Such a sad joke.

Honestly, it's not justifiable. Subjectivity can kiss my ass; there is such a thing as stupid shit and this is an example.



LOLZ
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lastfighter89
01/14/2012 05:20 PM (UTC)
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Nephrite Wrote:
Actually you could say that Styrker beat 4 "very weak" characters:

- Reptile
- Mileena
- Kintaro
- Ermac


Those 4 only recorded losses throughout the story mode, so there was no contradictory stuff like Smoke beating Kitana and later Kitana beating Smoke & Cage teamed up.

At least those 4 Stryker beat lost to everyone so in a way story mode established them as some of the weakest characters.




Not to sound rude or play the role of the pain the you know where...
But Ermac blew Jax's arms away , kicked Cage's butts and maybe did the same with Smoke.
Ermac was not depicted as being weak at all. The only limit is that he wasn't playable, alongside many other bad guys.

The story Mode is not that bad honestly, it does have the same pros and cons of the original one.
Simply, some users around here finally understood that THEIR own vision of the MK story was different from the way the writers intended first...and were disappointed, simply as that.
Even the death of Kitana or Quan Chi having possession of the fallen warriors' souls is NOT a plot hole, simply it's not explained.

MK have indeed a great storyline, even better than Uncharted (what? Indiana Jones rip-off?) and Portal (funny jokes, "the cake is a lie" catchphrase is cool...but that game LACKS a REAL storyline).
Some MK fans are bitching too much, no flaming or hating in this post of mine, simply my POV.wink
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Cold_Cell
01/15/2012 02:17 AM (UTC)
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Espio872 Wrote:
Cold_Cell Wrote:
SO

let me get this straight...

Mortal Kombat and it's cheesy, craptastic script nab a nom,

but Portal 2's masters of the written word get ignored.

Such a sad joke.

Honestly, it's not justifiable. Subjectivity can kiss my ass; there is such a thing as stupid shit and this is an example.



LOLZ

Go play Portal 2, come back, and you won't be laughing as much; you'll be questioning the Writers Guild's credibility.
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Espio872
01/15/2012 02:59 AM (UTC)
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I was laughing because I thought your post was funny, not because I disagree with you.
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Scar_Subby
01/15/2012 05:20 AM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
Nephrite Wrote:
Actually you could say that Styrker beat 4 "very weak" characters:

- Reptile
- Mileena
- Kintaro
- Ermac


Those 4 only recorded losses throughout the story mode, so there was no contradictory stuff like Smoke beating Kitana and later Kitana beating Smoke & Cage teamed up.

At least those 4 Stryker beat lost to everyone so in a way story mode established them as some of the weakest characters.




Not to sound rude or play the role of the pain the you know where...
But Ermac blew Jax's arms away , kicked Cage's butts and maybe did the same with Smoke.
Ermac was not depicted as being weak at all. The only limit is that he wasn't playable, alongside many other bad guys.

The story Mode is not that bad honestly, it does have the same pros and cons of the original one.
Simply, some users around here finally understood that THEIR own vision of the MK story was different from the way the writers intended first...and were disappointed, simply as that.
Even the death of Kitana or Quan Chi having possession of the fallen warriors' souls is NOT a plot hole, simply it's not explained.

MK have indeed a great storyline, even better than Uncharted (what? Indiana Jones rip-off?) and Portal (funny jokes, "the cake is a lie" catchphrase is cool...but that game LACKS a REAL storyline).
Some MK fans are bitching too much, no flaming or hating in this post of mine, simply my POV.wink


Whoa, now. I get that you may have liked the story, but you can't act like people are pissed because they had their own visions of the story crushed. Everyone has their own visions of how a story goes, but that's not the reason they didn't like this story. Guaranteed that if they would have just told the majority of sh** how it was supposed to happen then there would be fewer people complaining. As you may notice, the majority here don't like the story. Also, I have friends who are completely new to mortal kombat and they thought the story sucked. So, there you go. It's not neccessarily just the MK forums that hate this crap. Just because it got some nomination doesn't mean it's great, it just means WB are kissing the right A**es.

There were story's more deserving than MK's and that's the truth.

Sorry, not to get pissed but when you said "THEIR own vision of the MK story was different from the way the writers intended first." That line just pissed me off. John Tobias didn't intend for Mileena to have the mind of a child or not even know Kitana. That was supposed to be a relationship that was built upon so that when Kitana finally defected it would mean more. Also, Cyber Sub-Zero was not something that was intended for Sub-Zero either. That was some sh** thrown in for shock value. Also, Raiden carrying an amulet. Yea never f**kin happened..like at all. I don't like being an A**hole but that one line right there just pissed me off. People are getting all gung ho now because of this sh** nomination but it doesn't prove anything. It certainly doesn't prove the story was good.

Also, Kitana's death. It has been brought up already, but why in the hell can Raiden heal Jax earlier in story, but not Kitana? I mean she's there alive. What about Liu Kang, he just zapped him and was there talking to him before he presumably died. Why not use his magical raiden healing powers?lol. That he has never had before either.

Or Quan Chi having possession of the souls. Dude don't even bring that up. Raiden was going to sell their souls only to find out that Kahn already had, but how the hell did Kahn have possession of the souls in the first place. You're right it's something not answered but you would think something that big would need to be answered. Hint's why some think this story sucks a**.

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Nephrite
01/15/2012 12:31 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
But Ermac blew Jax's arms away , kicked Cage's butts and maybe did the same with Smoke.
Ermac was not depicted as being weak at all. The only limit is that he wasn't playable, alongside many other bad guys.



I forgot that Ermac beat Cage in Kahn's Arena. Okay, we can cross him out on that list I made.

smile
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lastfighter89
01/15/2012 07:16 PM (UTC)
0
Scar_Subby Wrote:
Whoa, now. I get that you may have liked the story, but you can't act like people are pissed because they had their own visions of the story crushed.
Never used the word "pissed", but the word "dissapointed" instead, which is kinda different. MK fans get pissed everyday, every second. The female kombatant's attires, the boobs too big, Scorpion having two sword Fatalities, Johnny Cage's Tattoo, Smoke's hair, Kitana's hair...and the list goes on. We can debate if these complains are constructive criticism or just pointless whining, though I do have my opinion on the matter.
Point is, however, that MK(201) is indeed a great game, with a OVERALL great Story, way better and deeper than Uncharted or Portal 2.
Of course there are better games in terms of story telling, I'd say LA Noire, Heavy Rain and even Shenmue back in the Dreamcast Days.
Everyone has their own visions of how a story goes, but that's not the reason they didn't like this story. Guaranteed that if they would have just told the majority of sh** how it was supposed to happen then there would be fewer people complaining. As you may notice, the majority here don't like the story. Also, I have friends who are completely new to mortal kombat and they thought the story sucked.

I'm not arguing about different tastes. You can like something or not, but you have to recognize its greatness. I do not like The Da Vinci Code, or even the "Divina Commedia", but I'd never say these two "books" are :
1)overrated
2) included into a category awards just because WB know exactly what are the right a$$es to kiss,
3)they suck because other people told me so...
etc.
I'd like to have my own opinion though, and I can GUARANTEE you that the "day 1" reaction to the Story Mode was largely positive. Then, after FEW isolated cases of bitching a lot of people "jumped on the wagon".
I'm not accusing nor blaming anyone in particular, but you got what I mean.
Sorry, not to get pissed but when you said "THEIR own vision of the MK story was different from the way the writers intended first." That line just pissed me off. John Tobias didn't intend for Mileena to have the mind of a child or not even know Kitana.

ok, first off in the story mode of MK(2011) Mileena, as just as she woke up, called Kitana "SISTER!", so I assume she knew exactly who was Kitana.
Secondly "John Tobias didn't intend for Mileena to have the mind of a child".
May I dare t ask you on what this assumption of yours is based on?
Tobias, Vogel or whoever else just had a "crazy" Mileena in mind.
"Madness" or Schizophenia can manifest into different forms...catatonism, thought disorders and even REGRESSION (a "mental"child).
I didn't like either the fact that Mileena was created since...what?Few minutes? or even Few seconds. But on a better note, this solution does have much more sense than having a half-tarkatan assassin walking around in your royal palace, without a real reason to be there, considering there are other assassins at your service, think about Baraka, Reptile, Jade and so on.
Shao Kahn, in MK 2011, just wanted to REPLACE the current Kitana with a more malleable and controllable Princess, that's why he wants Kitana dead and ask Shang tsung to create a NEWER, BETTER (in his twisted mind, of course) Princess at the moment.
That was supposed to be a relationship that was built upon so that when Kitana finally defected it would mean more. Also, Cyber Sub-Zero was not something that was intended for Sub-Zero either. That was some sh** thrown in for shock value.

Yeah, that's right. They gave us Cyber Sub-Zero for shock value, while I remember a lot of other people complaining about the deadlock situation which afflicted the old storyline fo the Lin kuei. He basically fought Scorpion 3 times, became the leader of the Lin Kuei and took the Drago Medallion from Sektor...all this in few lines in his Bio in Deadlly Alliance. In MK Deception he found an armorm heals Kenshi and they lost themselves in Outworld That's a great storyline!!!(irony)
Cyber Sub-Zero is there because this is a damn REBOOT, they wanted to carry the storyline on with few twists here and there, without changing the core part of the plot. In this new timeline Raiden saves Human Smoke, but cannot save Sub-Zero, just because he was fighting in the tournament and Raiden cannot temper with the outcome of the competition.The Lin kuei did so only because they asked permission to Shao kahn, and the Emper agreed 'cause Cyrax and Sektor became his personal bitches.
Simply as that. On a friendly note, I can tell you I didn't like Cyber Subby at all, but the idea behind his automation is sensed after all.
Also, Raiden carrying an amulet. Yea never f**kin happened..like at all. I don't like being an A**hole but that one line right there just pissed me off. People are getting all gung ho now because of this sh** nomination but it doesn't prove anything. It certainly doesn't prove the story was good.

Again, this is a reboot, just like Batman Begins and Dark Knight. Alfred Pennyworth never used to be some kind of spy or governative agent before, Joker was never meant to be an anarchist armed with knives and last time I've checked Harvey Dent was a lawyer in the comics, not a former cop running for Mayor. (I'm not a Batman reader, but I assume these differencies are correct. My apologize to Batman's fan if something is wrong). The Amulet was intended for two purposes:
1)being a "light" opposte to the "dark" amulet wielded by Shinnok (my personal assumption)
2)the simplest way to explain HOW raiden was messing up with the timeline.(matter of fact)


Also, Kitana's death. It has been brought up already, but why in the hell can Raiden heal Jax earlier in story, but not Kitana?

SIMPLY AS THAT: Jax was just beaten, slightly wounded, but he was not dying. Kitana was with a foot and half in the grave, considering how Sindel consumed her FROM THE INSIDE with ther banshee powers. So Raiden came back too lately to save her.



I mean she's there alive.

We have no idea how much damaged she took before departing away.
She was more banged up than Jax at the beginning of the Story mode, the proof is that Major Briggs was walking with his own feet, kitana had barely the strenght to rise an arm and calling Liu Kang.
Again, I'm not acting as a smart ass, neither I'm calling you idiot. To me it was clear since the beginning, and no, I'm not John Vogel under a false nick name.


What about Liu Kang, he just zapped him and was there talking to him before he presumably died. Why not use his magical raiden healing powers?lol.

Again, Raiden can save a wounded guy, but CANNOT resurrect the dead, or at least he can do in a very dark way (think about MK Deception), in a zombie like state.And i think that Zombie Liu Kang, was one of the worst thing that has ever happned to the MK mythos.
And for the record, Raiden didn't want to KILL Liu kang. He murdered himself with his own FIRE, from his deadly fist Fatality Move. Raiden just throw a shocking bolt in order to harm, without killing, him. Liu kang gets burnt, like Kabal, not electrocuted.
The same thing could have happened if Johnny Cage had thrown a green fireball to Liu while he was charging his fiery fist.


Or Quan Chi having possession of the souls. Dude don't even bring that up. Raiden was going to sell their souls only to find out that Kahn already had, but how the hell did Kahn have possession of the souls in the first place.

Shang Tusng can steal/move the souls from...how far? six,seven feet away from his opponent? well, Shao Kahn in the MK3 arcade intro did the same thing with almost the ENTIRE world population, from a DIFFERENT REALM several kilometers/dimensions away.
So, If Kahn can do this, I don't see why he could not give the drained souls to Quan Chi. Plus, do not forget that Quan Chi is a NECROmancer, NECRO comes from Latin, which mean "dead" so he can rise the dead.
Shao Kahn gave Quan Chi the warrior's souls, Quan Chi transformed them into zombies.
It makes sense, sorry to tell you that.
I agree with you on one thing: this little details are NOT clear, but Dom Cianciolo, the guy who co-wrote the story with Vogel and made the cut-scenes, told via twitter that a lot of stuff was deleted from the final build of the story mode (he named... a relationship between Baraka and Mileejna, better background for Johnny Cage, and other things I cannot remember right now)


You're right it's something not answered but you would think something that big would need to be answered. Hint's why some think this story sucks a**.


I respect your opinion.grin

The question is HOW can Shao Kahn give Quan Chi souls that aren't his to give, there should be some logic to it. It doesn't make sense. They're not his to give.

Also, Sindel didn't succeed in taking Kitana's soul. Even then, he didn't know what was wrong with her so he still could've tried,
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NoobSaibot5
01/15/2012 09:06 PM (UTC)
0
Let's compare MK to Arkham City, just for the hell of it.

With Arkham City, you have a shit load of detail. First, you've got Batman's main story which is compelling, exciting and completely addictive (it's the story you could play again and again) then you've got all these really well written side stories involving the likes of Hush, Deadshot and Riddler, and finally you've got Catwoman's minor storyline that's also very true to the character and packed full of entertaining and memorable moments.

Everything from how the Prison was set up, to how the inmates were shipped, to how Strange had Quincy Sharp manipulated into doing his bidding, to the pre-history between certain characters like Two Face, Joker and Penguin was all carefully laid out and concise. You play the game entralled at the story line, knowing that the characters are behaving accordingly to what we've known them to be, and despite some (and I stress *some*) wtf moments in the story where your left asking questions, everything else has excellent attention to detail and is a very well written script. You can see how it deserves it's nomination.


Then we reach Mortal Kombat, where credit given where it's due, has presented the best cinematic story mode any fighting game has ever seen.

The story however, is ripe with contradictions from the get go. Raiden and Shao Khan are facing off at the very end of Armageddon, an event which happened in a previously established timeline. When Raiden goes back in time however, the pre-established time he's supposed to be travelling back to is like a different world completely. It's a continuation of an old timeline, but rebooted to be something new. And that, from the get go, fucks things up immensley. You can either continue on with one thing or start something new completely, not merge the two together. Had Raiden returned to what was already established in the original games but changed the outcomes of the tournaments, that would be different, but there are some things that changed simply from his return to the past that he had no direct influence on.

For example, In MK1 Sub-Zero was sent to kill Shang Tsung, in this game he's working for him. In MK2, Kitana discovers the truth about Khan prior to the game and murders Mileena after assuming for years she was her sister, in this game she's told by Raiden during the second tournament and only meets Mileena for the first time during the tournament. These are only two examples of changes made with no logical explanation behind them, the list goes on. How does Raiden returning to the past change any of that? How are these retcons justified?

To anybody who's never played Mortal Kombat before, it mightn't seem like that big a deal, but that still doesn't excuse the sloppy writing skills of Vogel and Co on this one. Even new fans of the franchise would most likely be left confused after hearing Shao Khan had sold the souls of warriors who weren't his own to Quan Chi, or wonder why the protector of Earthrealm (who's even quoted in his bio as being wise and all knowing ) managed to make repeatedly detrimental decisions for not knowing the basic rules of the tournament he's allegedly been supervising the last century.

Taking that and the numerous, plentiful WTF moments Story Mode gave us into consideration, you can see that this story has more loose ends than a Woolen Mills and is a lazy, sloppy story ripe with mistakes and inexplicable retcons. Compare it to Batman, and it's blown out of the water, my 7 year old nephew has a better imagination and grasp of storytelling than the collective staff behind the story in MK9 put together. To consider it worthy of an award is comical at best.

I hope the MK staff actually stop and read this. For years the gameplay was crap but the storyline was amazing and gripping, it was one of the only redeemable features MK had. Now we have good gameplay, but the one thing the franchise survived on is progressively getting worse. Everything was catered for in this game for the fans, and I'd like to think the majority of us are greatful for everything we got with MK9, but it's agreed bar a few changes in this game's story that it's one of the worst scripts MK has ever had.
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lastfighter89
01/15/2012 09:54 PM (UTC)
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NoobSaibot5 Wrote:
Let's compare MK to Arkham City, just for the hell of it.

With Arkham City, you have a shit load of detail. First, you've got Batman's main story which is compelling, exciting and completely addictive (it's the story you could play again and again) then you've got all these really well written side stories involving the likes of Hush, Deadshot and Riddler, and finally you've got Catwoman's minor storyline that's also very true to the character and packed full of entertaining and memorable moments.
.







This is an opinion. I respect this, but Batman Arkham Asylum has his own narrative flaws.
Starting from the basic idea of hving an entire "city" dedicated to psychos, murderers , etc.
And its story was far away from being "compelling, exciting and totally addictive". Just my two cents. EDIT: I have to make amends about two mistakes in my last post: the first being the mess up I did with the quotes; secondly the root "NECRO" comes from ancient Greek, not from Latin.
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NoobSaibot5
01/15/2012 10:31 PM (UTC)
0
The notion of having a city full of criminals is only ludicrous if you dont look into the back story of why the city was established. If you read the canon comic of Arkham City and find all the Character Stories in the game, you can see there was a logical reason storywise to build the walls around the slums of Gotham City to make Arkham City, hell it's even mentioned in the game that there were members of the public who opposed the idea of the city being built and that it was a controversial decision within the Gotham Unniverse. In all fairness, it was much better explained than Quan Chi just having the souls of the dead warriors in his possesion or how Mileena's origins somehow managed to completely changed because Raiden went back to the MK1 tourament.
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lastfighter89
01/15/2012 11:45 PM (UTC)
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NoobSaibot5 Wrote:
The notion of having a city full of criminals is only ludicrous if you dont look into the back story of why the city was established. If you read the canon comic of Arkham City and find all the Character Stories in the game, you can see there was a logical reason storywise to build the walls around the slums of Gotham City to make Arkham City, hell it's even mentioned in the game that there were members of the public who opposed the idea of the city being built and that it was a controversial decision within the Gotham Unniverse. In all fairness, it was much better explained than Quan Chi just having the souls of the dead warriors in his possesion or how Mileena's origins somehow managed to completely changed because Raiden went back to the MK1 tourament.


I could say the same thing for Hugo Strange: he have hostages, he is running the city, he knows Batman's true identity, he is the final bad guy...and yet you NEVER interact with him before the gran finale.
Oh, do not forget about Two-faces...he appears just in the first mission and Cat-woman ending side-quest. I thought he was going to play a major role in the economy of the story. He just makes two cameos, but he lacks a REAL developement in the game's plot. He seems to be there just for the sake of putting him in.

And Deadshot? He is supposed to be the greatest assassin ...he could be knocked with a single takedown.

And i can say the same for Mad Hatter and even Solomon Grundy as literally underdeveloped.

I used two continues to beat kintaro. Maybe I'm not a great player, but during THAT moment, I felt overpowered, in danger, weaker, frustrated (all this before learning his easily exploitable mechanics of course). And what about Batman's bad guys? I almost felt sorry for them.

I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a Story that doesn't exactly explains all the WHY(s) and the how(S), than seeing some of my favourites appearing for 5 minutes, be there just for fan-service, get their ass kicked and disappearing into the shadows.
We can complain about the transformation subdued by Quan Chi: from the great mastermind, to the common grunt who fought in the two tournaments.
But at least he have his decent screen time and his developed as a character. And the same goes for Noob, Mileena, Shang tsung, Shao Kahn...ok, they seem to be weaker than expected, but damn they have their screen time at least.


Just to give some food for thought, I found these links all over the internet.
It might sound silly, but these guys and girls expressed the same basic ideas of mine about BAC storyline.
Underdeveloped, rushed, with few trashy moments. it is a very positive experience nonetheless, but also MK had his own shitty moments.
Every story has his own flaws, I don't see why some users are so eager to point the ones of MK, ignoring or forgiving so easily the mistakes made by others.

http://shogungamer.com/news/batman-arkham-city-great-yet-flawed-game

http://padinga.com/2011/10/19/batman-arkham-city-is-amazing-with-some-flaws/

http://n4g.com/news/880586/batman-arkham-city-a-great-yet-flawed-game/com#c-6016059

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7146482/batman-arkham-city


They are all long reads...
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lastfighter89
01/15/2012 11:48 PM (UTC)
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ProudNintendofan Wrote:
The question is HOW can Shao Kahn give Quan Chi souls that aren't his to give, there should be some logic to it. It doesn't make sense. They're not his to give.

Also, Sindel didn't succeed in taking Kitana's soul. Even then, he didn't know what was wrong with her so he still could've tried,


I've already answered these questions in my previous post. Unfortunately I do not know how to use the forum TAGS, especially the quotes.
Maybe someone can be so kind to edit the message for me.
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NoobSaibot5
01/16/2012 12:08 AM (UTC)
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Deadshot, I'll concede to. He's not fleshed out at all. Same can be said for Poison Ivy, Robin, Calender Man, Azrael, Killer Croc and Bane.

Two Face however is one of the few villains within the game to appear in the comic prior to the events of the game, and despite his lack of screen time there was a lot of work put into showing his character. His 5 unlockable audio tapes all highlight who and what he is perfectly with a very insightful view on his mental state around the time Arkham City was being built, and his unlockable stories all give away details about his feud with Catwoman and how he tried to outrun being arrested by the Tyger Guards. He may have appeared on screen for a little amount of time, but the back story you can discover about him certainly gives his character a fair bit of depth from just one game. The same was the case with Poison Ivy in Batman:Arkham Asylum, she didn't really have that much screen time but her unlockable audio tapes gave her a great sense of character, and that formula also applied to Zsazz and Mad Hatter in this game.

My point was with Arkham City was that the story had very minor flaws, and that in contrast to MK it actually managed to make the majority of it's characters stand out and be distinct from one another. Yes there were some plot holes, but I'd argue they were a lot more subtle than what we got with MK9.

Good storytelling doesnt involve leaving the audience thinking "what the fuck just happened?" in confusion. If it's going to be done well, you at least need to later clarify why it happened, and with MK9 a lot of events and retcons happened with no viable explanation. At least in Arkham City you have a sense as to WHY certain things happened or WHO the character at hand is, in comparisson to MK9 there's absolutely no justifying the way MK9 handled it's plot and characters.

Sub-Zero is a perfect example of this. Techically Raiden couldn't interfere with the tournament, and since the Lin Kuei captured Sub-Zero as he was about to finish Scorpion off he was arguably still in the middle of a match. But what's not explained is how Sub-Zero even got into the tournament in the first place, he wasn't invited to challenge by Shang Tsung along with the other Earthrealm warriors, and in this game it's not like the old canon where the second Sub-Zero competes to finish his brothers job and kill Shang Tsung.

There's no explanation as to how he got into the tournament, what the result of his participation would have been towards Earth or Outworld, or even why Shao Kahn allowed him to participate at all. He just shows up, demands a match, and thats it. Then the next time we see him, he's been automated, fights one match against Kabal as a servant to the Emporer, and is reprogrammed all in the space of one cutscene. There was no clarification behind his character, shit just sporadically happened to him and that was that.

That's just one character of many. Say what you want about Arkham City, but I don't think it was in any way as rushed or half assed as the Mortal Kombat storyline was.
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lastfighter89
01/16/2012 12:22 AM (UTC)
0
Kuai Liang clearly says to Shao Kahn:
"Your grunts hold you in high esteem, warlord. They fight and die for your amusement. But i do this only to face the murderer of my brother".
(NOT textual words, but the meaning si all here).

Kuai Liang takes part in the tournament to avenge his brother. The classic martial arts movie flick from the 70s.
Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon partecipated in the tournament mainly because his sister got kidnapped, and therefore he wanted to face O'Hara.
The classic "Youv killed ma broder, mothafucka!" reason.

Honestly, is also explained why the Lin kuei were in the first Tournament, and why Sub-Zero Bi-Han was there (there's a nod by Raiden to MK Mythologies).
Ths is a very weak spot because, in order to hold a great storyline, you have to be sure that the plot can stand on his own legs, without making references to other forms of media unrelated to the game itself.
For istance, the OFFICIAL comic books by John Tobias were good because they were part of the game's universe and were sold WITH the game.
References to audio tapes/CANON comic books or MK Mythologies are both bad, because the videogames are supposed to be targeting not only the audience form the comics/previous games, but also new followers.
And of course new followers don't know shit about the past of both franchises, Batman "arkham" and Mortal Kombat REBOOT without the previous installements.
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Lokheit
01/16/2012 12:44 AM (UTC)
0
Wait, Mortal Kombat crappy story (it's the only reason I don't consider MK the PERFECT fighting game, even not having story at all woukd've been better) is nominated for an award but for example inFamous 2 story (one of the best I've seen in recent years in videogames) no??

Woahhh, just woah... the worst is that this will reafirm them on their route...
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Scar_Subby
01/16/2012 01:23 AM (UTC)
0
Lokheit Wrote:
Wait, Mortal Kombat crappy story (it's the only reason I don't consider MK the PERFECT fighting game, even not having story at all woukd've been better) is nominated for an award but for example inFamous 2 story (one of the best I've seen in recent years in videogames) no??

Woahhh, just woah... the worst is that this will reafirm them on their route...


Lol. I feel exactly the same way. I never even finished story I hated it so bad. I watched every chapter after smoke's on youtube because I didn't want that abomination cyber sub-zero to be a character in my game.lol.

Everyone says, but you will miss out on Quan Chi because of it. Who cares? He's most certainly going to be in the next game, and he's overexposed in this one. Poor Shang Tsung took a major backseat for that idiot.

So, yea when you find out the story and don't even want to play it through, as a fan since MK2, then yea something is wrong. I've loved the story and agree with those who say that MK's story used to be it's only saving grace and now it's the one thing they are getting hugely wrong. Why can't they have every aspect be good, is that too much to ask for?
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NoobSaibot5
01/16/2012 02:03 AM (UTC)
0
lastfighter89 Wrote:
Kuai Liang clearly says to Shao Kahn:
"Your grunts hold you in high esteem, warlord. They fight and die for your amusement. But i do this only to face the murderer of my brother".
(NOT textual words, but the meaning si all here).

Kuai Liang takes part in the tournament to avenge his brother. The classic martial arts movie flick from the 70s.
Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon partecipated in the tournament mainly because his sister got kidnapped, and therefore he wanted to face O'Hara.
The classic "Youv killed ma broder, mothafucka!" reason.



Your missing the point. The whole reason Shao Khan even had that tournament was so that he could eliminate the warriors from Earthrealm who ruined his chances in the previous tourament and try to claim Earth with one last ditch effort at a tournament. He didn't know of Kuai Liang to invite him to participate, nor was Kuai fighting on behalf of Raiden. He's just in Outworld looking for Shang Tsung as the tournament is happening, is told about Scorpion, then ends up strolling up to Kahn to demand a fight in the middle of the tournament. Why should Kahn allow him to participate if he doesn't know who he is? Especially if he's an Earthrealm warrior who could easily turn on him, would that not be foolish of him to allow a warrior from Raiden's realm to just waltz right into the battles and demand a match against one of his own fighters? Bear in mind that Scorpion is working for Quan Chi, who's working for the Emporer. Why would Kahn allow a stranger from Earth to effectively take on one of his soldiers in the middle of a tournament? In the original canon he's there for a reason, he was actually invited to fight in the tournament so that he could continue the assassination job on Shang Tsung, which proves my point about Raiden inexplicably changing the old established canon by going back in time. They retconned his original story for no given reason at all.


lastfighter89 Wrote:
Honestly, is also explained why the Lin kuei were in the first Tournament, and why Sub-Zero Bi-Han was there (there's a nod by Raiden to MK Mythologies).



Again, your missing the point here. In the original canon Cyrax and Sektor were not at the tournament, neither where Nightwolf, Baraka, Skarlet, Quan Chi or Jade. How does Raiden using his amulet to go back to the first tournament suddenly cause their appearance? MK9 is a continuation of Armageddon, and in Armageddon MK1 and everything that happened in the original canon has already happened. So how does the time travel explain why Sektor and Cyrax are now there? They are now fighting for Shang Tsung, with Cyrax being contracted to kill Johnny Cage. That doesn't happen in the old canon, by rights the only Lin Kuei who should have been at the tournament in that part of the story would be Bi Han. It's change for the sake of change, and it's change they can't explain either. Does that reflect good writing to you?
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KuaiLiang
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About Me

PSN: manu_erizo
01/16/2012 02:13 AM (UTC)
0
For god's sake, people. Retcons happen all the time in all forms of media. I don't know why some of you make such a fuzz about it.
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NoobSaibot5
01/16/2012 02:19 AM (UTC)
0
KuaiLiang Wrote:
For god's sake, people. Retcons happen all the time in all forms of media. I don't know why some of you make such a fuzz about it.


That they do, and I'm not arguing that. But in most cases the retcons can be explained as to why the happened, and they don't just happen for the sake of happening.

Resident Evil 1 being a perfect example of good retconing. The whole experience with the mansion was redone to include the backstory about Lisa Trevor and her family, the G-Virus and the Progenitor Virus and all of it was accountable for. Documents in the game explained all of the changes and made it work. In MK, they happened for the sake of them happening with no explanations offered at all. Don't get me wrong, I encourage change, I love it in fact! But only when there's logic as to why it happened as opposed to "it just did, Raiden going back in time changed things". His return to the past should have no effect on the likes of Mileena's origins for example, it's just poor writing.
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lastfighter89
01/16/2012 03:51 AM (UTC)
0
NoobSaibot5 Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
Kuai Liang clearly says to Shao Kahn:
"Your grunts hold you in high esteem, warlord. They fight and die for your amusement. But i do this only to face the murderer of my brother".
(NOT textual words, but the meaning si all here).

Kuai Liang takes part in the tournament to avenge his brother. The classic martial arts movie flick from the 70s.
Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon partecipated in the tournament mainly because his sister got kidnapped, and therefore he wanted to face O'Hara.
The classic "Youv killed ma broder, mothafucka!" reason.



Your missing the point. The whole reason Shao Khan even had that tournament was so that he could eliminate the warriors from Earthrealm who ruined his chances in the previous tourament and try to claim Earth with one last ditch effort at a tournament. He didn't know of Kuai Liang to invite him to participate, nor was Kuai fighting on behalf of Raiden. He's just in Outworld looking for Shang Tsung as the tournament is happening, is told about Scorpion, then ends up strolling up to Kahn to demand a fight in the middle of the tournament.

Why should Kahn allow him to participate if he doesn't know who he is? Especially if he's an Earthrealm warrior who could easily turn on him, would that not be foolish of him to allow a warrior from Raiden's realm to just waltz right into the battles and demand a match against one of his own fighters? Bear in mind that Scorpion is working for Quan Chi, who's working for the Emporer. Why would Kahn allow a stranger from Earth to effectively take on one of his soldiers in the middle of a tournament?

In the original canon he's there for a reason, he was actually invited to fight in the tournament so that he could continue the assassination job on Shang Tsung, which proves my point about Raiden inexplicably changing the old established canon by going back in time. They retconned his original story for no given reason at all.


lastfighter89 Wrote:
Honestly, is also explained why the Lin kuei were in the first Tournament, and why Sub-Zero Bi-Han was there (there's a nod by Raiden to MK Mythologies).



Again, your missing the point here. In the original canon Cyrax and Sektor were not at the tournament, neither where Nightwolf, Baraka, Skarlet, Quan Chi or Jade. How does Raiden using his amulet to go back to the first tournament suddenly cause their appearance? MK9 is a continuation of Armageddon, and in Armageddon MK1 and everything that happened in the original canon has already happened. So how does the time travel explain why Sektor and Cyrax are now there? They are now fighting for Shang Tsung, with Cyrax being contracted to kill Johnny Cage. That doesn't happen in the old canon, by rights the only Lin Kuei who should have been at the tournament in that part of the story would be Bi Han. It's change for the sake of change, and it's change they can't explain either. Does that reflect good writing to you?



Last tme I've checked no warrio needed an invitation from Shao kahn.
remember Shang tsung? He named Jax a "volunteer for fight kombat". IN other words, MK is just a free entry tournament. That's why Shao Kahn allows Subby to partecipate to the tournament.
He wanted Subby to fight against Reptile too, in order to see if Subby was worth of the honor.


And about the presence of Jade, Kitana, Baraka, etc at the first tournament?
It's a retcon. You can't have a tournament with just seven people, plus Skarlet, Stunt Man and some unnamed ninja.
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NoobSaibot5
01/16/2012 03:36 PM (UTC)
0
Dude, again, your missing the point. Mortal Kombat was never a "free entry" tournament. The Shaolin had to pick their best representitive to fight in the tournament to defend Earth Realm (Liu Kang), the Lin Kuei sent one of their top assassin's to carry out a hit on Shang Tsung (which would be Bi Han), Johnny Cage was invited to participate because he was one of the best fighters in Earthrealm, and Sonya was forced to compete by the sorcerer because not only was she one of the best fighters in Earthrealm but her men were held captive on the island. Did you even play the original games or did you willingly skip past the story line?

Shang Tsung always wanted the best participants in the tournament because it was his intention to drain their souls and become stronger when they lost. It has always been an "invite only" tournament. Do you really think a competition that was intended to act as the only means of protecting Earthrealm from invasion would be so laidback with who attended? Thats just common sense dude. Raiden wouldn't allow any chump off the street to fight on behalf of the Earth if that warrior was not strong enough to participate, likewise Shang Tsung would not invite weak warriors who's souls he couldn't benefit from. Why else do you think the White Lotus was established in the series? They hand pick and train warriors for the sole purpose of defending Earth's chances in the tournament.

It seems to me you're building your perception of how the Mortal Kombat universe runs based on this one Mortal Kombat game, which is the wrong thing to do. The tournament always had established rules and customs, the only thing was that Shang Tsung was a cheating bastard and relished any opportunity to bend the rules to his favour, which is why the events of MK2 happened in the first place. In Armageddon, Raiden went back in time to the MK1 timeline where the rules and contestants were already established. How does his return to the past suddenly cause those warriors to compete? How does his return to the past suddenly undo all of Kitana's history with Mileena, or cause Sektor and Cyrax's appearance in the competition, or even change Bi Han's objective in the first tourament? It doesn't. Raiden never had any influence in any of those characters lives, so how does his time travel effect them?

There's no explanation for those retcons, it's just lazy, sloppy writing with no valid reasoning offered as to why it happened. It would be one thing if Kitana, Baraka, Jade, Skarlet and Quan Chi were working behind the scenes for Shang Tsung in an attempt to eradicate the Earthrealm warriors for Shao Khan, which would be a believable arguement, but now they're blatantly competing in the tournament. There's no logic or creativity behind the retcons, they just happen with no explanation. Regardless what way you look at it, changes were made just for the sake of change, and if the writers could overlook such gaping holes of logic or reasoning in their story it doesn't reflect an award winning story.
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lastfighter89
01/16/2012 06:12 PM (UTC)
0
NoobSaibot5 Wrote:
Dude, again, your missing the point. Mortal Kombat was never a "free entry" tournament. The Shaolin had to pick their best representitive to fight in the tournament to defend Earth Realm (Liu Kang), the Lin Kuei sent one of their top assassin's to carry out a hit on Shang Tsung (which would be Bi Han), Johnny Cage was invited to participate because he was one of the best fighters in Earthrealm, and Sonya was forced to compete by the sorcerer because not only was she one of the best fighters in Earthrealm but her men were held captive on the island. Did you even play the original games or did you willingly skip past the story line?

Shang Tsung always wanted the best participants in the tournament because it was his intention to drain their souls and become stronger when they lost. It has always been an "invite only" tournament. Do you really think a competition that was intended to act as the only means of protecting Earthrealm from invasion would be so laidback with who attended? Thats just common sense dude. Raiden wouldn't allow any chump off the street to fight on behalf of the Earth if that warrior was not strong enough to participate, likewise Shang Tsung would not invite weak warriors who's souls he couldn't benefit from. Why else do you think the White Lotus was established in the series? They hand pick and train warriors for the sole purpose of defending Earth's chances in the tournament.

It seems to me you're building your perception of how the Mortal Kombat universe runs based on this one Mortal Kombat game, which is the wrong thing to do. The tournament always had established rules and customs, the only thing was that Shang Tsung was a cheating bastard and relished any opportunity to bend the rules to his favour, which is why the events of MK2 happened in the first place. In Armageddon, Raiden went back in time to the MK1 timeline where the rules and contestants were already established. How does his return to the past suddenly cause those warriors to compete? How does his return to the past suddenly undo all of Kitana's history with Mileena, or cause Sektor and Cyrax's appearance in the competition, or even change Bi Han's objective in the first tourament? It doesn't. Raiden never had any influence in any of those characters lives, so how does his time travel effect them?

There's no explanation for those retcons, it's just lazy, sloppy writing with no valid reasoning offered as to why it happened. It would be one thing if Kitana, Baraka, Jade, Skarlet and Quan Chi were working behind the scenes for Shang Tsung in an attempt to eradicate the Earthrealm warriors for Shao Khan, which would be a believable arguement, but now they're blatantly competing in the tournament. There's no logic or creativity behind the retcons, they just happen with no explanation. Regardless what way you look at it, changes were made just for the sake of change, and if the writers could overlook such gaping holes of logic or reasoning in their story it doesn't reflect an award winning story.



absolutely not.
In the official MK1 comic book by John Tobias, Liu kang just proposed himself as the shaolin champion, promising he won't fail. He never proved to be the best, this is just speculation. And I've read nowehere that he was the best. He was supposed to be the best, he thought to be best The shaolin masters hoped he was the best.
To me, he was just the only one who stood in front of the shaolin granmasters, maybe the other shaolin warrior were not intentioned to take part in the tournament.
All the speculations about his victory in a "tournament" held inside the shaolin temple were used in the MK(2011) storyline though starting his "love/hate" reationship with Kung Lao.

Sub-Zer's quest to kill Shang has been teconned into a mission to KILL/eliminate from the tournament the heroes. it is called retcon, and it makes much more sense than the original storyline. BTW, who in hell ordered Shang Tsung death in the first place? At least now we KNOW why the Lin Kuei are there and who hired them. And no, this is the only point to make.

Again, you need to re-read the official comic books; Johnny Cage was not "invited" in the tournament because he was one of the strongest earth's warriors. He just knew about the tournament and took part in it to PROVE to be the best. His manager and secretary even tried to stop him.
This part of the story hasn't been retconned at all.
"This tournament is not meant to reach personal glory!".


And no, Sonya was not forced to partecipate at the tournament. She was pursuing Kano, He escaped with one of Shang tsung's Ghost Ships, Sonya and few other soldiers tried to follow him on Shang's island, but were spotted and hel captive. Sonya was there by chance, just because she was following Kano. Not because Earthrealm had any need of her.
If Kano had reach Rio de Janeiro, Sonya and her men would been in Brazil.
After ALL this shit, cnsidering that Sonya was already there, she was forced to fight in order so save her pals.
"Some are here by their volition, others were brought here by chance"

Shang Tsung didn't want the "strongest" warriors at the tournament.
he wanted just an easy win over them. He already had some powerful souls, just like the original Kung Lao one. And he had Goro by his side.
Actually he hoped for weak warriors, in order to win with ease and avoiding any punishment form Shao Kahn.

The entire "invite" thing applies only to Raiden, which was retconned into the paternal figure he is now, and the movie, with that chinese scroll.
Maybe few other warriors had some kind of invitation, but not the ones you are talking about.

In the first MK storyline Raiden was not even a proper "good guy" and he was not intended to choose the earth's warriors. This is just a retcon, insipired by the script of the movie, available since 1993 although this needs to be confirmed. (Chrissy Lambert...what have you done?) grin

In MK2 he was retconned as a good guy and Earth's protector, still, you should wondering why he "invited" Cage, Sonya and Liu to fight in the tournament, but never did so with Jax, Kung Lao,Stryker, Kai...and the list goes on.

BTW, there's another proof showing ultimately that not only the best warriors took part in the MK tournament: there were several unnamed fighters in Shang's Island. Many of them were form Earthrealm. They were killed off.
So, to partecipate, you needn't to be the best. And Raiden didn't pick the guys himself. Not int he original canon.
If you think otherwise, you can ask John Tobias via twitter...he always answers back, he is a kind guy.


The white Lotus society was created to train a new generation of fighters ready to defend the Earth AFTER the Great Kung Lao victory back in Middle Age (more or less). There are other warrior who were not part of that society, and Liu kang, Kung Lao and Kai left it for unknown reasons.

In the MK1 arcade intro, and partially in the MK trilogy one, is explicitally stated that The Tournament was once a competition of honor, but Tsung corrupted it. So THIS ELEMENT is not a retcon. Shang always played by his own rules, after he took control of the tournament.

You do make a valid point though: How in hell Raiden comes back to the past and, by magic, warrior who missed the tournament were there: Cyrax, Sektor, Skarlet, Smoke's rip-offs, etc?

The storyline itself is not flawless, but we agreed that even Batman had his own problems.
This MK(2011) is a new beginning, following the past storyline and changing it. Finally we saw Sektor unmasked. maybe there were other means to reach the same result, but the story, the way it is written, does MAKE sense. They(NRS) totally rewrite it. You can like it or not. But that's it.

the time travel thing was just a gimmick. But Armageddon was a "full stop" for the series in terms of plot, so we need a decent follow up from that point.
And considering how Ed Boon & co, plus a good amount of fans, are Mk1-2-3-UMK3 addicted he just wanted to give a new beginning to the saga, with few twists here and there.
They are called retcons. Think about the Punisher. In some point, during the late 90's he become a demon hunter, with paranormal powers and John Costantine attitude just because the old good Frank Castle was executed on the electric chair (and his sales were not that good).
All of a sudden, The Punisher had a reboot and frank Castle returned to be old Punisher. But the entire: he was killed and resurrected as an angelic "punisher" hellblazer rip-off was totally cancelled.
It might sound sad, but try to erase from your mind the old canon of MK, unlss John Vogel or the other guys make a step back and erase this NEW canon instead. And I am NOT against this idea at all.



Jade and Kitana were not part of the tournament, they were just Shang's enforcers and assassins. they tried to kill Sonya and Liu Kang, but that fights were out of the tournament course. And Quan Chi was there ONLY to defeat the warriors from Earth and help Shang tsung, not because he was intentioned to win the competition.

It was stupid, tough, seeing Raiden disappearing just two second before the fight between Kitana and Liu kang, when he was supposed to watch over the regular course of the tournament.(and attacking one of your warriors out of the tournament is not regular at all). This would have been a valid point in favour of yout thesis.


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Icebaby
01/16/2012 11:53 PM (UTC)
0
*Tries to read all the lengthy posts, but its just not happening*

Still thought the story was decent, at least it was better than some of the stuff they've made before.
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