Time Manipulation in MK
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posted05/19/2005 08:31 PM (UTC)by
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tgrant
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Given the length of this, I have split it between two posts. I have posted this once before but it was buried under the many threads in the General board when there was no real place for this topic. I’ll be posting a lot more of my ideas, new and old for MK. This is the first set.

Time in a fighting game would prove to be something very influential. With both players possessing power over time, matches could be redefined in terms of how they are played and how they end. This thread is here to present this idea to you and to get you to think about it. It is by no means here as a suggestion to get rid of the normal gameplay and have this as a permanent and definite part of MK.

The inspiration for these ideas, are the Prince of Persia and Viewtiful Joe games. For those who have played these games, imagine those powers of time at your finger tips within MK. Imagine what they could lead to. Time itself would play apart with special moves, death-traps, combos and of course, would make the difference between life and death. I will now tell you of the uses of Time Manipulation in MK.


Time Manipulation in MK


The Power of Delay (Slow Motion):

Slowing down time would effectively allow you to power up attacks. Combo damage could be raised slightly as your slower attacks power up upon delivery to the opponent. Of course, slowing down time allows the opponent to see where your next attack is coming from a lot easier. They may be able to counter attack or evade effectively if they’re smart. The smarter player would make sure their chain combo connected first and slowed down mid combo to maximise damage.

In terms of specials, projectiles would be the ones greatly affected by slow down. Let’s take Sub-Zero and Raiden for example. You’re about to do the freeze. You’re at the opposite end of the screen and have a long way to travel if it does connect. You know that if it does, there is chance they’ll unfreeze before you can combo. To cure that, you slow down time, increasing the potency of the ice blast as it is released. Upon connection, its ability has been increased for a greater amount of time, so the enemy remains frozen for longer. In the case of Raiden, a paralysis effect could be added onto his lightning blast, or it could just do more damage. In the reverse, slow down time to evade a projectile coming at you. You move at normal speed and sidestep past it. Helpful if you don’t initially see it coming. Slow down could also allow you to increase the size of your projectile before release, thus stopping sidestepping opponents.

Slowing down time could also allow for increased jumping ability. Surprise your opponent by slowing down time, executing your jump, and then releasing the time delay and power launching yourself across the screen from a full screen length away and knock them in the face with a nicely done kick. If this were classic MK, you’d probably go in with a punch and combo off it.

In effect, slowing down time will be useful for offence and defence.

The Power of Haste (Speed Up):

Increasing the speed of time for yourself will allow you to do quite a lot of effective stuff if used correctly. We all remember Jades ridiculous running speed in UMK3/MKT. We could have that again with the speed up. You could run around the arena, evading projectiles, sidestep incoming attacks with ease. Your mix ups would come out faster allowing you to break your opponents block more easily. And your combos would appear so much faster, in a shadowy or fiery blur maybe.

However, to combat the cheapness of such tactics, hits would be less potent, decreasing in damage. So you’d be using the speed up to get in quick combos, but at the cost of less damage. It would be worth it in a tight spot sometimes.

Another effect here would be the ability to avoid interrupts. This would effectively allow for a better attacking ability and decrease those irritating lag times on certain attacks and specials. Speeding up mid combo could also eliminate this.
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05/07/2005 10:13 AM (UTC)
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The Power of Revival (Rewind):

This power, in effect, could be everyones best friend. You’d have no need to switch off the death-traps anymore. That mistake that cost you the match because your opponent was slightly smarter and struck a quick blow at you sending you reeling into a death-trap can now be easily undone. If you find yourself being knocked into a death-trap, you have a small amount of time to save yourself being your gruesome death. This is the animation time, the time in which you travel towards said death-trap. Once in there, you die. You cannot rewind once dead, which is why you’d have to be quick.

Countering that however, would be the speed up. If the opponent speeds up time, it will counter your rewind, thus lessening the time taken to reach the death-trap. That means, you are OWNED!

Those combo breakers you used when you thought you were in danger and then regretted it later when receiving a KO blow can be recovered. You would however have to bear in mind that you’d only have a limited amount of time to rewind back to. Also, for combos if you didn’t have time to pull a breaker off, rewind and pull it off. You’ve just minimised damage to yourself.

If MK ever has a proper parrying system, (think Soul Calibur), we can see deflected hits from the opponent erased as you rewind time and go to attack somewhere else. If they parry your high attack, rewind quickly and attack low instead.

Rewinding time can also save you from combos, giving you the chance to block or evade as necessary and correct any other mistakes you make in the field.

The power of rewind is very useful. Use it wisely. The enemy may see what you’re up to and counter it.

The Power of Restraint (Freeze):

The ability to freeze time in an MK match allows for the following things to happen.

Mechanical deathtraps would cease to work, rendering them harmless for a set amount of time allowing being near the edge of an arena not so hazardous.

Freezing the opponent in time would be another useful option for free damage and would make a Sub-Zero player even more dangerous. However, if said option were available to you, there would be a significant damage loss to counter for such a cheap tactic.

Rather than freezing the opponent just for the sake of a free attack whenever you want, the freezing time option could be used to freeze a special move instead. For instance, lets take Kobras Teleport Punch. Has he ever used it when he’s been against a deathtrap ready to go in and knocked you into one with it? If so, the time freeze will allow you to turn this back on him. You’re in the above situation and Kobra teleports and is just appearing. You, being rather smart, freeze time, trapping him mid teleport or maybe just after as he goes to punch you. You sidestep around him and deliver your attack, knocking him into that deathtrap. That would be a more satisfying end to the round for you, no? Consider the opponent truly punished.


To limit the abuse of certain time powers, I was thinking that a player could only have the chance to use one of each time power within a match. Or maybe, have the choice of just three of them. The three they think would most help them. You’d have to take into consideration the stage you are about to play on, the opponents character and even how skilled the opponent is. Strategy would be the key to victory. Plus, I would expect a complete revamp in the overall fighting engine. MKDs has left me somewhat unimpressed.

To summarise, time itself could play a distinct and rather strategical part of kombat if ever wielded within MK or maybe any other fighting game. The above ideas are just examples of the many uses time has. There is so much more that could be done.

As ever, your thoughts, ideas and opinions are welcome.
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BlackErmac
05/07/2005 10:39 AM (UTC)
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Coolio, I like slowmotion!
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Joes04
05/07/2005 10:50 AM (UTC)
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These are just the powers in Prince of Persia . I think Mk could get done if it had these in . It would be cool though grin
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red_dragon
05/07/2005 03:16 PM (UTC)
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Great ideas there Tgrant, manipulating time would really be something unique while fighting. Ever played the Max Payne games? They have a mode called "bullet time" where for a short time, all your enemies movement and reactions slow down, while you can move at normal speed. And Jade really needs her old super speed back. These should be new abilities like in MKDA, where certain characters had different little things like reversals, power up etc.
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FLSTYLE
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05/07/2005 05:36 PM (UTC)
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The amount of cheese that would come from this is endless, no thanks.
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tgrant
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05/08/2005 01:25 PM (UTC)
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red_dragon Wrote:
Great ideas there Tgrant, manipulating time would really be something unique while fighting. Ever played the Max Payne games? They have a mode called "bullet time" where for a short time, all your enemies movement and reactions slow down, while you can move at normal speed.

And Jade really needs her old super speed back. These should be new abilities like in MKDA, where certain characters had different little things like reversals, power up etc.


Thanks red_dragon. I've never played Max Payne, but I have heard of it and some of its features. I agree that Jade needs her speed. Not having it has ruined her imo.

FLSTYLE Wrote:
The amount of cheese that would come from this is endless, no thanks.


I'd never thought of it from that angle, but if controlled properly I don't think it'd be too much of an issue. But I can see the point you're making and if it would be too cheesy, then I wouldn't want it either.

Thanks for replying BlackErmac and Joes04.
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05/08/2005 09:21 PM (UTC)
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The problem with time manipulation is that it would become a huge buffer. Suppose people would use the rewind or speed up to break combos, or with somebody would buffer the rewind to try and block every hit their opponent would land on them. It's an interesting idea, but it would leave gameplay broken. It's one of the few reason's I've never created a character like that for a fighting game. Instead I'd like to see some wire-fu in it's place.
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FLSTYLE
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05/08/2005 11:18 PM (UTC)
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tgrant Wrote:
I'd never thought of it from that angle, but if controlled properly I don't think it'd be too much of an issue. But I can see the point you're making and if it would be too cheesy, then I wouldn't want it either.


I can see all the people going insane because of people slowing down time and having 5 seconds to input a 50/50 mix-up into an infinite while you're only just throwing a punch, hell in a computer game tongue
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Wisdom324
05/08/2005 11:42 PM (UTC)
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I think Time Manipulation would be great b/c it can give you an advantage when competing against your opponent. It would be cool if MK, did that.

What if each character had a specific time manipulation trait, which is uncovered when used by the player? Like give one character the right to slow time down and another can speed it up and so forth. KInda like what they did for Puzzle Kombat, where each character had a special ability to shorten their stack or punish their opponents'?
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Kingdragon2001
05/09/2005 03:10 AM (UTC)
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Cool. When I first saw this thread I thought it had something to do with like time travel. Time travel is very confusing, that is why I hate it. But tgrant's ideas are really good!
Time distortion is cool, but I'd rather have it be one fighter's special ability.
Not have it be a generic thing for everybody.

Don't have it so they can do it at any time though, maybe it can only be done during a juggle, or it's avoidable like how you can block Ermack's lift.

It can also be like a move you can only do during a power up.

If you are hit during a power up, you can tap f+block to rewind time and be able to counter your opponent's attack when they throw it again.

You would still take the damage from the last attack though.

There could be a reversal where you would parry the attack, then stop time at that instant. Then you can do anything, like if you froze someone with Sub Zero.

It has to be so it's not too overpowering but still useful.
Your opponent has to be able to defend against the time warp attacks.

This fighter would also have hyper speed moves like MK style dial combos that are unbreakable and very fast with motion blur. They wouldn't bee too damaging though to keep it fair.

It would be like the poke combos in games like Tekken 5. With Feng Wei's 1,2,2 Or Lee Chaolan's f+3,3,3,3,3,4

He could have some combos where you don't even see him. You just see the opponent racting to the hits. That could be a throw animation or a special move like Kenshi's invisible combo.
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krackerjack
05/09/2005 04:15 AM (UTC)
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Time manipulation could only be used in very, very, very specific situations if we wanted a decent game. Playtesting a game is hard enough, but then to have to playtest it all over again with each one of these time alterations would just be insane, and if we were able to use any of these things at any time in a match with any character, it's highly likely we'd have 100% combos to the days. And then some.

I don't like to sound negative about these ideas because they really are cool, but just too unrealistic for Midway, I think.
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DrKorn
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05/09/2005 06:06 AM (UTC)
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Those sound like great ideas, but like a few other people have said, it may be a bit cheap at times. Maybe if those abilities were assigned to only one new character and in order to perform these actions, the character would have to charge up a special time manipulation meter gradually.
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Dark_No0B
05/12/2005 07:40 AM (UTC)
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Time Manipulation would be pretty cool to see, but IMO it shouldn't be something that all the characters can use at anytime (or often). I'd rather it be something used either once in a while or in a critical situation. If I was to put time manipulation in MK, I'd make it so that each character can use it once per round, but like Bleed said, I'd rather have it be one fighter's special ability.

awesome thread bro.
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wedgegold
05/12/2005 02:15 PM (UTC)
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I think these would be great.

But I think we need to get a real physics fighting engine so that Kharacters truely intereact so that real combos and specials can be done to balance out the longer and infinte button combos
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tgrant
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05/13/2005 05:58 PM (UTC)
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FLSTYLE Wrote:
tgrant Wrote:
I'd never thought of it from that angle, but if controlled properly I don't think it'd be too much of an issue. But I can see the point you're making and if it would be too cheesy, then I wouldn't want it either.


I can see all the people going insane because of people slowing down time and having 5 seconds to input a 50/50 mix-up into an infinite while you're only just throwing a punch, hell in a computer game tongue

Lol! I’d never thought about it that in depth, which is why I ask for others opinions. If that were going to be the case in terms of gameplay, then I’d say no to it too. But lets just hope that the gameplay for MK changes and doesn’t stay at this rubbish 50/50 guessing game. I hate it. But then, this is the MK Team we’re dealing with. Oh wll! Lol! Hell it’d be! tongue

Wisdom324 Wrote:
I think Time Manipulation would be great b/c it can give you an advantage when competing against your opponent. It would be cool if MK, did that.

What if each character had a specific time manipulation trait, which is uncovered when used by the player? Like give one character the right to slow time down and another can speed it up and so forth. KInda like what they did for Puzzle Kombat, where each character had a special ability to shorten their stack or punish their opponents'?


That could work and would be interesting to see. A lot of work would have to be done to find a balance though to ensure no character were overpowered. But then the proper use of these abilities would see you countering the other persons usage of it as well as trying for the successful offense. It’d come down to proper testing to ensure all was fair.

Kingdragon2001 Wrote:
Cool. When I first saw this thread I thought it had something to do with like time travel. Time travel is very confusing, that is why I hate it. But tgrant's ideas are really good!


Time travel in MK is something I wouldn’t want. I’m glad you like the ideas though.

bleed Wrote:
Time distortion is cool, but I'd rather have it be one fighter's special ability.
Not have it be a generic thing for everybody.

Don't have it so they can do it at any time though, maybe it can only be done during a juggle, or it's avoidable like how you can block Ermack's lift.

It can also be like a move you can only do during a power up.

If you are hit during a power up, you can tap f+block to rewind time and be able to counter your opponent's attack when they throw it again.

You would still take the damage from the last attack though.

There could be a reversal where you would parry the attack, then stop time at that instant. Then you can do anything, like if you froze someone with Sub Zero.

It has to be so it's not too overpowering but still useful.
Your opponent has to be able to defend against the time warp attacks.

This fighter would also have hyper speed moves like MK style dial combos that are unbreakable and very fast with motion blur. They wouldn't bee too damaging though to keep it fair.

It would be like the poke combos in games like Tekken 5. With Feng Wei's 1,2,2 Or Lee Chaolan's f+3,3,3,3,3,4

He could have some combos where you don't even see him. You just see the opponent racting to the hits. That could be a throw animation or a special move like Kenshi's invisible combo.


Awesome ideas, bleed! All of that sounded great. You’ve covered a lot of how I’d see the gameplay itself in terms of how these powers would be used. Nice one, dude!


Some of the more advanced techniques would look brilliant in execution, especially if animated properly. I love the final idea of not being able to see the combo. That'd be sick! wink
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Nikodemus
05/13/2005 06:14 PM (UTC)
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bleed Wrote:
Time distortion is cool, but I'd rather have it be one fighter's special ability.
Not have it be a generic thing for everybody.

Don't have it so they can do it at any time though, maybe it can only be done during a juggle, or it's avoidable like how you can block Ermack's lift.

It can also be like a move you can only do during a power up.

If you are hit during a power up, you can tap f+block to rewind time and be able to counter your opponent's attack when they throw it again.

You would still take the damage from the last attack though.

There could be a reversal where you would parry the attack, then stop time at that instant. Then you can do anything, like if you froze someone with Sub Zero.

It has to be so it's not too overpowering but still useful.
Your opponent has to be able to defend against the time warp attacks.

This fighter would also have hyper speed moves like MK style dial combos that are unbreakable and very fast with motion blur. They wouldn't bee too damaging though to keep it fair.

It would be like the poke combos in games like Tekken 5. With Feng Wei's 1,2,2 Or Lee Chaolan's f+3,3,3,3,3,4

He could have some combos where you don't even see him. You just see the opponent racting to the hits. That could be a throw animation or a special move like Kenshi's invisible combo.


I think I'll go with bleed on this one. Your ideas are great T-man but they need to be executed correctly so that they wouldn't cheese up the game. I could see a lot of cheapness coming from stuff like this. I dunno If I would trust the MK team with these ideas because they managed to mess up deceptions fighitng system pretty good without any kinda complicated stuff like this added in. I do however like most of these ideas and I hope that Boon and Co come up with something to spice up the combat system for the next mk game.
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tgrant
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05/13/2005 06:16 PM (UTC)
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krackerjack Wrote:
Time manipulation could only be used in very, very, very specific situations if we wanted a decent game. Playtesting a game is hard enough, but then to have to playtest it all over again with each one of these time alterations would just be insane, and if we were able to use any of these things at any time in a match with any character, it's highly likely we'd have 100% combos to the days. And then some.

I don't like to sound negative about these ideas because they really are cool, but just too unrealistic for Midway, I think.


You’re right, man. Such ideas are beyong Midways capabilities imo. A lot of people have said I should make my own, but I wouldn’t know where to start. My ideas are for presentation and to get people to think about the possibilities if they were ever introduced.

DrKorn Wrote:
Those sound like great ideas, but like a few other people have said, it may be a bit cheap at times. Maybe if those abilities were assigned to only one new character and in order to perform these actions, the character would have to charge up a special time manipulation meter gradually.


A meter? That could be another possibility. It’d probably act like your super meter in the Street Fighter games.

Dark_No0B Wrote:
Time Manipulation would be pretty cool to see, but IMO it shouldn't be something that all the characters can use at anytime (or often). I'd rather it be something used either once in a while or in a critical situation. If I was to put time manipulation in MK, I'd make it so that each character can use it once per round, but like Bleed said, I'd rather have it be one fighter's special ability.

awesome thread bro.


Thanks, bro. I guess limiting it to crucial points could be ok, but then you’d have to determine when those were. In effect the player chooses those moments and would use the power of time when they saw fit.

wedgegold Wrote:
I think these would be great.

But I think we need to get a real physics fighting engine so that Kharacters truely intereact so that real combos and specials can be done to balance out the longer and infinte button combos


Agreed! The engine needs fixing before anything new comes in.
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tgrant
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05/13/2005 06:19 PM (UTC)
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Nikodemus Wrote:
bleed Wrote:
Time distortion is cool, but I'd rather have it be one fighter's special ability.
Not have it be a generic thing for everybody.

Don't have it so they can do it at any time though, maybe it can only be done during a juggle, or it's avoidable like how you can block Ermack's lift.

It can also be like a move you can only do during a power up.

If you are hit during a power up, you can tap f+block to rewind time and be able to counter your opponent's attack when they throw it again.

You would still take the damage from the last attack though.

There could be a reversal where you would parry the attack, then stop time at that instant. Then you can do anything, like if you froze someone with Sub Zero.

It has to be so it's not too overpowering but still useful.
Your opponent has to be able to defend against the time warp attacks.

This fighter would also have hyper speed moves like MK style dial combos that are unbreakable and very fast with motion blur. They wouldn't bee too damaging though to keep it fair.

It would be like the poke combos in games like Tekken 5. With Feng Wei's 1,2,2 Or Lee Chaolan's f+3,3,3,3,3,4

He could have some combos where you don't even see him. You just see the opponent racting to the hits. That could be a throw animation or a special move like Kenshi's invisible combo.


I think I'll go with bleed on this one. Your ideas are great T-man but they need to be executed correctly so that they wouldn't cheese up the game. I could see a lot of cheapness coming from stuff like this. I dunno If I would trust the MK team with these ideas because they managed to mess up deceptions fighitng system pretty good without any kinda complicated stuff like this added in. I do however like most of these ideas and I hope that Boon and Co come up with something to spice up the combat system for the next mk game.


Traitor! tongue

Just kidding, man. I wouldn't let the MK Team touch my ideas without supervision. Lol! MKD is a huge mess! I've lost faith in their ability to deliver a decent game. Hopefully MK7 will restore that. I see where you're coming from with your comments though.
I like the idea becuase in the MK movie they had a bit of it and i thought it suited it great. They should incorporate this into the games for sure.
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DanGe
05/16/2005 08:28 AM (UTC)
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Does anyone else see lots of I’ or is it just my computer?
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tgrant
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05/19/2005 08:31 PM (UTC)
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thetruth4 Wrote:
I like the idea becuase in the MK movie they had a bit of it and i thought it suited it great. They should incorporate this into the games for sure.


I don't think they could to the extent it should be. They'd probably make a mess of it and make it all as broken as they've made MKD. In which case it'd all be cheese as FLSTYLE said and another game like MKD will probably be the downfall of the MK series.

Dange: Just hit the refresh button.
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