yes. absolutley positively yes.

as for character changes, smoke needs some longer combos. i can't do shit other than use special moves.

@Nephrite: True about Sub-Zero's Ice ball freezing opponents even if the projectile hits Sub-Zero while Scorp's spear would only cause some damage and the pull won't take place.

But if you stategically place yourself very wide in the screen, then even if the Ice ball hits, if you can make sure your projectile also hits Sub-Zero, then there simply isn't enough time to dash ahead and use a combo. Perhaps just dash and slide or use another ice ball.

Even if the Ice ball is considered superior to the spear or other projectiles, the rest of Sub-Zero's specials don't have as much purpose to them as they had previously. I think in MKvsDC Sub-Zero played really well, the ice parry is a lot more useful than the clone as in close range the clone won't work at all. With no teleport though I'm not saying Sub-Zero needs one or should have one, I think a clone which he leaves behind him and moves forward would add more depth to his defensive arsenal considering he is a defensive character. He doesn't have a lot of moves either, just 4, compared to certain others, thats not a lot. Should be easy to implement as well.

The Ice Puddle charges for way way too long and currently is a low hit working only if it hits a standing or standing while blocking opponent. It will though remain useless unless people can also slip on it if it's hit on the ground and not on their feet. So if your ice puddle hits, they freeze the legs, if you use it on the ground, they slip. Currently an ice puddle on the ground evaporates (vanishes), all I'm saying is that they stay there and work as the original ice puddle as well as how it works in this game when hit on characters.

I honestly think some characters need slower recovery time from specials. Ermac, Kung Lao, and Kano have almost none. Many time they can do a special, have it blocked, then do it again before the opponent can react with anything. Throw some freakin' frames in there, people.

^ Gosh I hate Kano's cannonballs... But I'm not an expert player. I'm really looking forward to seeing more tournament footage and how those people deal with Kano's cannonballs.


@B_i_G_E_v_i_L:

Regarding Sub-Zero's ice clone, it's actually my favorite special move ever in MK and I love that they brought it back. I'm very biased when it comes to that move so I'll always prefer it over the ice parry. The ability to do it and jump forwards out of it would definitely be neat and would help a lot against "teleporters". I usually do the clone by canceling out from a combo, I think it's safer like that.

As for his ground freeze, I agree with you. It's way too slow and the normal version is useless, at least for me. I did catch lots of online players with the enhanced version though. I just wish it would come out a bit faster OR if you were able to cancel it out by dashing (I'm not sure about this, but I don't think you can cancel it out at the moment).

However, regarding Sub-Zero, Tom Brady who's a high level tournament player and was a tester for the game, claims Sub-Zero to be one of the best characters in the game.

Almost as stupid as the original post, Smoke has very long combos, just because it's not a 10 hit string combo and you actually have to work to pull them off, poor fucking baby. Learn how to play the game and quit being lazy.

Hi, my name is 2,2,2 and I'm here to fuck shit up.

This would be the funniest shit.

give subby a teleport

A few posts ago, but again, on the subject of Mileena....

Nearly every single character has a move with a high chance of easily landing them a combo, and Mileena's isn't anything particularly special. As I said, I enjoy the fact that Mileena is a more complex character to play, I main Setsuka and Ivy in SC, I understand complicated characters, and no, Kung Lao is not the only character you can mash your way to victory with. Against Mileena, all you have to do strategy wise is block and mash away as you please no matter who you are playing. Sure, she can get in your face and mix it up, but she's more effective at long range. If Mileena were to have a low roll would that devastate your gameplay and overpower her so much that you would just be unable to continue? It's a very simple concept: Mileena rolls, you duck/block. Sure it's fast to react to, but it is roughly the same as Mileena having to roll/teleport instantly to anything she can punish.

1. Special moves should drain the "power meter", to make the use of special moves. People in general use their characters special moves way too much. This would get rid of people that spam special moves.

2. Using special moves should NOT build up the power meter.

3. The power meter should only be built up for people that attack and not people that get beaten.
4. Increase the amout of time Tsung can stay morphed , while using the nornal soul steal.
5. Get rid of the damge boost Tsung gets, while morphed into other characters.

@Neph & BIG, we could go back and forth all day about what a move should do, but you have to keep in mind that "fair" is just as big a part of game design as "fun".

Mileena has tremendous high low game. Giving her an instantaneous low launcher that can punish projectiles and be used in mix up combos would be ridiculous. If the roll was low, she could use the b+2 combo to basically reduce the opponents options to a guess whether the fast overhead 3 is coming or the even fast low roll is coming. That would be a nightmare.

and @BIG, Sub Zero has a tremendous zoning game already. All the "ninja" teleports are baitable, and duckable with HUGE punish potential on block. If you really need a "reverse clone" to protect yourself from teleports you should really take a hard look at that block button. What are you gonna give scorpion to cope with the fact that reverse clone would totally shut down his only way to keep sub from spamming ice and slide? A faster spear? a longer range takedown? a bigger hell fire? Dangerous options.

Characters have multiple moves to give them depth, not just flashy combos. If move a isn't getting the job done, maybe you need to look at move b,c and d. Not every character needs teleports, and not every character needs big damage combos to compete. Stryker has neither of those things and he's fine just the way he is. Its all a matter of learning your character "totally" and not just using that one move you like.

I understand what you mean Fenix, I think the problem I have with Sub-Zero in this game is that the gameplay gets very repetitive in terms of using specials. The clone works best as a cancel as Nephrite said, or against dash moves. Most people though keep abusing teleports, which leaves a defensive character like Sub-Zero a bit helpless especially if you can't always time the block.

Looking at other characters, I see there are more options, thats all. The ground freeze too being a useless move also doesn't help much. Even if the clone is used to good effect, that still leaves Subby with 3 practically efficient moves.

For example, again using a Sub-Zero vs Scorpion situation. Say Sub-Zero and Scorpion both hit a special. Out of probability, who'll come out on top.

Ice ball vs Spear = 50/50.

Spear hits but doesn't drag, Ice ball hits and Scorp freezes. It's almost 50-50 because it's difficult to actually hit Scorpion with a combo due to the damage and time consumed by the spear. But possible to at least hit Scorp with a slide.

Ice Ball vs Hell Fire = 30/70 almost same situation as above. Probably more advantage to Scorpion here, because the flaming Subby animation will probably not make it possible to hit Scorpion in time if he freezes.

Ice Ball vs Teleport punch = 10/90. Practically Subby will always get the worst end here, sometimes though he's able to freeze Scorpion before he actually teleports but the frozen Scorpion does not stay frozen as long as normal so the advantage Sub-Zero gets is minimal.

Ice Ball vs Slide Tackle = 90/10 Since Scorpion's slide tackle is very short range, the ice ball has a great advantage over it.

Ice Clone vs Spear = 0/100 advantage to Scorpion, a clone and a spear hit at the same time or possible slightly differing time will always give an advantage to Scorpion.

Ice Clone vs Hell Fire = 0/100. Scorpion doesn't move so no chance of him getting frozen, again massive advantage.

Ice Clone vs Teleport = 10/100. Again the clone ies ahead so the teleport is easy to pull off unless Subby left the clone and actually jumped forward. That means actually having to do it as a precautionary measure and then predictably jumping ahead. Almost impossible to get this going. The reason I liked the ice parry was because it was great defensive counter, and unless the clone can also be left behind Subby, it does not give enough defensive cover.

Ice Clone vs Slide tackle = 80/20 probably the only time the Clone can actually trap Scorpion is when in medium range the clone and the tackle are commanded around the same time.

Ice Slide vs Spear 40/60 if close range, the slide is faster so it gains some advantage over the spear, but in longer range, the slide will not go underneath the spear and the spear will connect in the middle of the slide, so potentially if Scorpion can keep Sub-Zero in range, it's a great advantage.

Ice Slide vs Teleport = 50/50. If timed at the same time, both moves will miss.

Ice Slide vs Hell fire = 50/50 ? not too sure about this one, don't think the hell fire should connect while sliding but I remember seeing that it does at times. Perhaps it was the enhanced version. Regardless, I think if both of them are timed around the same time, the slide will hit if timed before missing the fire, and the fire will hit if the slide was timed a bit later.

Ice Slide vs Slide Tackle = 80/20. The ice slide like most moves of Subby against Scorpion's slide tackle, comes on top.


Now if you look at that, you'll see that apart from Scorpion's slide, there is no other move that Sub-Zero really has an advantage over Scorpion. A lot of people would say to use other aspects of the game, but even while jumping Scorpion has a massive advantage with the air throw.

I'm not ranting here, I know Scorpion is one of those characters who are easy to play with, harder to play against. But considering how fluid it was to play with Sub-Zero in MKvsDC, I just don't find that to be the case anymore. In fact, Cyber Sub-Zero getting Ice Parry is so ridiculous, the guy has almost everything Sub-Zero has in a better way, the bombs do a much better job than the ice puddle, the slide and ice ball are the same. Plus he has a teleport and the dive kick. I wish instead of trying to develop Cyber Sub-Zero so much, a bit more effort was given to make Sub-Zero more enjoyable as a character.

This is why I'm saying, adding an ice clone behind Sub-Zero would give him some sort of advantage that is missing right now. As for answering Fenix, if there was such a move and once such a clone was released there was a danger of spamming ice balls or the slide. The great thing is that the ice ball doesn't do damage like other projectiles so blocking it has no real problems, and in range, the slide can easily be blocked as U can just sit holding block while standing. So I don't see that to be a problem myself.

Okay this is a ridiculously long post, I better stop now ...

@Fenix: A nightmare is as it should be. Playing against the top characters in this game when they are well played is itself a nightmare, I don't see why a well played Mileena can't be equally as terrifying.

@Harle, you still haven't told me what other characters are so dominating. Let me take a guess, is it Smoke? Is it Raiden? Is it Sektor? Is it Ermac? These may very well be "simple" characters, but if your opponents are just "mashing" you should beat them no matter who they use. It sounds to me like maybe what you need to do is learn to use Mileena WITHOUT the roll. You're right tho, it is not that useful, but that's not "unfair" and most Mileena players would do well to not try and shoe horn it into their strategy just because it nets free combos. Mileena has lots of other options to pressure, to punish, and to keep out. I mean she has one of the best anti-airs in the game and one of the best projectiles and she can do them both from the air. Either you need to adapt to Mileena's style, find a character more suited to your style.

For example, Stryker sucks unless you rely on the gun. Every Stryker out there whose commited to throwing bombs and trying to use the roll grab is scratching their heads when guys like Raiden and Smoke tele-rape them. Does NRS need to make bombs better? No, you need to recognize that the bomb is not the corner stone of Stryker's game and adapt.

@Neph, while that certainly is a thorough analysis, its kind of missing the point. Special vs. Special really doesn't fully illustrate the situation of one character vs another. A rational Scorpion would never throw a spear at a freeze happy sub zero, because its a losing battle. Likewise, a rational sub zero would never try to freeze a teleport happy Scorpion. Some moves just beat out other moves by design, and the idea at least is that everything is supposed to have a check and balance.

Sub Zero in DC was a COMPLETELY different character. He had a homing unblockable, he had a freaking teleport, he had sidesteps, he had a parry, he didn't have to worry about X-Rays and Super Armor. It was a completely different ballgame, and if somehow that was "fluid" and this isn't, its only because you haven't yet figured out how to be "fluid" in this game.

Sub Zero beats Scorpion by keeping him out. Period. Sub Zero can't go "toe to toe" with Scorpion because Scorpion has huge combos off a jump in punch, has way better high / low, and can teleport (or xray) out of trouble. What he can't do however is just walk in when there's a clone on the ground. The clone makes scorpion have to jump, hellfire, try a risky trade with ex spear, or try to teleport. Your job as sub zero is to remain safe and patient and be ready for whichever of those things the opponent tries and punish accordingly. All of them can be beaten.

Jumps? Uppercut / 2,2,2 / Slide / Ice puddle depending on range
Spear? Block, duck or trade with ice, enjoy your free slide / combo
Teleport? Block, punish big time.

THe only real option Scorpion has here is the hellfire. This will force Sub Zero to come out of his "shell". Scorpion needs to use hellfire to keep Sub Zero from "camping" behind a clone, then force him into a corner and just rush him down with leg grab, b+1, and other string mixups. This is actually Scorpion's strat against A LOT of characters because spear and teleport are so ridiculously risky in this game.

Regardless, the lesson to take from this is that every move has a purpose, and you cannot be effective with a character until you learn what they all are. Some moves are just plain useless, and while that sucks its life. Sometimes your favorite move just sucks. I happen to wish Kano's choke was better, but its just not and buffing it because it looks like it should be awesome is not the answer. Also, just because a move was good before doesn't mean the devs won't make it shit deliberately or accidentally in the next game.

Baraka legitimately sucked, and Kung Lao is legitimately too good, and Cyrax and Sonya and Quan Chi are legitimately broken and the netcode legitimately blows goats. These things need patches.

I'm by no means an expert, but IMHO, none of the characters being championed for changes really need them the game still needs time for experimentation. There are definately high / low characters on the tier list, but making a bunch of rash changes because you get spammed online isn't the answer. A lot of people bitch about teleports, smoke bomb, sheeva stomp, kabal spin, ermac force push, kano ball, quan trance and a load of other moves because at first glance they seem really really powerful but the reality is you need to adjust your own playstyle. These are all /good/ moves, but spamming most moves (in any game) is suicide. There are certainly a couple truly spammable safe moves in MK9, but very few of the "good" characters have them. Baraka, for instance has a great safe move, so does Sindel, so does Jade, but nobody's out there putting in work with them because people can't get past the fact that they cannot beat Raiden and Ermac with projectiles.

... You're making a much bigger deal about this than I would like. Her roll is one of her best moves, regardless of how punishable it is. You continue to make this personal, but across the board with Mileena players the consensus is: Make the roll less punishable or make it hit low. It has nothing to do with my skill or how likely it is my opponents are just mashing and spamming. It's just a simple statement, I don't understand why it must become about my skill level and maybe I should just stop using the move. If the move should be avoided rather than used, than it clearly should be fixed. If that bothers you so much, I'm terribly sorry for speaking out of turn. Also, because I do love that edit button, the move's purpose is not to randomly throw out and get a free hit, it's to counter what the opponent does scoring what is not a free hit at all, but in fact a legitimate follow up to a successful attack. My only issue is that in an extremely fast paced game, this style is just plain out of place, and it is so easy to miss the timing by a split second and fail miserably. So, my final opinion on the matter is that Mileena should keep her style, but I would like her to become less extreme in one direction while still keeping her original flare. And from now on, I will phrase my opinions in a self deprecating matter as to avoid appearing opinionated on the internet and constantly having someone trying to prove me wrong. So, I'll rephrase everything I said in the manner I spoke of above: I'm not very good at this game, and I don't know, but Mileena's kind of wierd. Fix her, because it's just too much! It's just too damn much!!!! (why won't the thing register that I've hit the enter key here? This is not intended to be a massive wall of text.)

It should have been @B_i_G_E_v_i_L.