Gameplay Discussion for Mortal Kombat: MK at EVO
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posted07/08/2011 02:37 AM (UTC)by
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SubMan799
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06/21/2005 07:52 PM (UTC)
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 05:02 AM (UTC)
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yea I'm bumping this. Can a mod move this to the new forum?
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MINION
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06/19/2010 05:34 AM (UTC)
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Moved. Thanks Sub.
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 05:35 AM (UTC)
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np Minion, congrats on the rank up
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MINION
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06/19/2010 05:36 AM (UTC)
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Thanks bro. Keep up great post. These things you listed above are key imho.
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MyQueenSindel
06/19/2010 06:22 AM (UTC)
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SubMan799 Wrote:
Now onto the main discussion.

One thing that MK has never done successfully is give each character individuality. MKDA-MKA failed to do this. Prior to these games, every character was basically the same. Sindel and Kung Lao are basically the same when you take away their specials and dial-a-combos.

EDIT 6/18: From the gamespot hands on, we now know that each character will be very unique and play completely different. Nice one MK team!

Characters need to have varying amounts of health. And their attacks should have different ranges, power and frames. Without individuality, the game becomes shallow as every character will play the same.



This is something I've been wanting to comment on for a while.

When Ed Boon says "each character will be very unique and play completely different" I'm taking that with a grain of salt. Not the fact that the characters are different, but when he says "completely" different I would have to imagine a shit-ton of different fighting styles and techniques. It's not that they can't do that it's that they THINK they're doing that so they therefore consider their character's totally unique.

Take for example Dead or Alive and Tekken. Each character is practically the same because they have the same type of combos, the same results when countering, yadda yadda. Occasionally you have your character who has a second or third stance, but still, once you learned the mechanics of the game, you can pretty much learn any character in a short amount of time.

Now take Soul Calibur. This this series, SOME characters are different. Not completely different, but different. You have one character who randomly switched between two command lists, one character where you have to hold down buttons and release them to perform attacks. One character who where 75% of his moves take him into a different sub-stance. But still, even in this game the moves are pretty much the same, slash this way, slash that way, different look, same result.

But then there's Blazblue a game that has such a diverse cast of characters it's unbelievable. So many differences between characters that they even have to move differently; one needs to air-dash to the opponent, one needs to push herself with her wind special, one needs to cancel special drive attacks to get on the offense, etc. NOTHING is the same about these characters, each of their moves are completely different and all of their combos look like they come from different games. That is what I call uniqueness.


So yeah, I'm a HUGE fan of character diversity, and after playing a game with a vast contrast in each character, I'm kind of taking Ed Boon's words lightly. Not that I don't think characters will be unique, just hat they'll be... between Tekken- different and Soul Calibur-different.

Thought I do wish a pray that the characters will be as different as I hope, I don't think it's likely. For them to be as different as I want, Sindel would need a flight stance which would utilize combos jumping from the air to the ground to tossing the opponent higher than her, Noob Saibot would need the ability to control both him and his shadow at the same time, Cyrax would need to inject his opponent with a virus and therefore cause damage between moves in combos... you know? Just ideas off the top of my head. But hopefully that gets my point across.
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FlamingTP
06/19/2010 06:22 AM (UTC)
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I've been looking for something to add serious discussion to this thread looks like the ticket.

-100% attacks Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE6cfHSfWV8
Don't want to see any of these, every MK game has at least one that I've seen so far

-Wake ups detract from the fun of the 50/50 in 2D hopefully we wont see any of those unless they surprise everyone with something good.

-Ed Boon Emphasized uniqueness in fighting style for each character. We can safely assume from this that HP,LP,HK,LK are irrelevant.

-Overhead attacks would be nice, I dont think I've seen any in MK, jump kicks could be blocked by low block if I remember correctly. Overheads should be implemented

-Techs can be avoided with a simple counter system, most decent fighters use a counter system in some form. Grapples aside from a few basic throws are irrelevant in a 2D fighter.

-If Ed boon was telling the truth, Command attacks should already be standard in the 2011 reboot, we might have to look closer at the fighting mechanics in the video to see if we notice this.

-I want to see more variety in the wake up game JKs Sweeps and JPs are too predictable, so are many wake up special moves (sektors tele punch). Overhead attacks should be implemented as well as some better defenses for the downed player.

-Boon needs to take a lesson from Blizzard (Diablo 3) and Valve (TF2) character development processes. the prime focus is balance, uniqueness, and ease of recognize-ability. If he does this, every fighter will be unique in every way, Dial a combos or not.
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 06:30 AM (UTC)
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you know, the developers might want to take a look at that super bar. It seems to fill up very quickly

A big think that the team needs to do is make sure the X-Ray moves are balanced and unique to each character. Right now from what we've seen the moves look like they are started differently for each character, which is good. Sektor launches a missile, Sub-Zero has an Ice Spike, and so on.

What they need to do is make sure that the X-Ray moves that can be involved with combos are weaker then the ones that are next to impossible to counter. We can see Cage comboing Kung Lao out of his X-Ray move for a combo that takes 44% damage. That seems about right. It could be a massive problem if the Super Bar fills up fast.

So basically, Combo-able X-Ray moves need to take much less than stand alone X-Ray moves, or difficulty to combo X-Ray moves. Also, make the Super Bar fill up a little bit slower. Maybe divide it into 4 bars, with the first two reserved for EX-Specials, the third one for Kombo Breakers, and the last being X-Ray moves.
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 06:41 AM (UTC)
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FlamingTP Wrote:
I've been looking for something to add serious discussion to this thread looks like the ticket.

-100% attacks Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE6cfHSfWV8
Don't want to see any of these, every MK game has at least one that I've seen so far


Almost 100% chance we'll be seeing those. I mean, have you seen how long characters stay popped up in the air? They need to make it much tougher and tighter to continue a combo after the first pop up. If there are combos like that, or infinites then I hope we get patches for it via DLC

FlamingTP Wrote:

-Wake ups detract from the fun of the 50/50 in 2D hopefully we wont see any of those unless they surprise everyone with something good.



you know, 50/50 would affect the game if it's wasn't for the fact that there is a block button. There are no cross ups in MK. The only options in the 2D fighters have been to keep pressure on the opponent, sweep, grab or jump kick. Over heads are absolutely needed for this next game, or the wake up game will be an after thought.

FlamingTP Wrote:

Techs can be avoided with a simple counter system, most decent fighters use a counter system in some form. Grapples aside from a few basic throws are irrelevant in a 2D fighter.
.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying grapple characters are not needed? No they are not needed but they would add a variety to the game. If you are saying throws are irrelevant in 2D fighters (which I really hope you are not) you could not be more wrong

FlamingTP Wrote:

-If Ed boon was telling the truth, Command attacks should already be standard in the 2011 reboot, we might have to look closer at the fighting mechanics in the video to see if we notice this.

-Boon needs to take a lesson from Blizzard (Diablo 3) and Valve (TF2) character development processes. the prime focus is balance, uniqueness, and ease of recognize-ability. If he does this, every fighter will be unique in every way, Dial a combos or not.


Agreed, characters have to feel unique. From the live demo we saw, it seems that way. Then again this is the MK team we're talking about. It's not set in stone that Sektor and Reptile will be completely different
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FlamingTP
06/19/2010 06:56 AM (UTC)
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SubMan799 Wrote:
FlamingTP Wrote:

Techs can be avoided with a simple counter system, most decent fighters use a counter system in some form. Grapples aside from a few basic throws are irrelevant in a 2D fighter.
.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying grapple characters are not needed? No they are not needed but they would add a variety to the game. If you are saying throws are irrelevant in 2D fighters (which I really hope you are not) you could not be more wrong


This requires clarification, a grapple character wouldn't work so well in a 2D fighter, for one it doesn't seem to look quite right and two if we dont see a counter throw system they might get an unfair advantage. throw/grapple based characters seem to work a lot better in 3D fighters.
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 07:02 AM (UTC)
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FlamingTP Wrote:
SubMan799 Wrote:
FlamingTP Wrote:

Techs can be avoided with a simple counter system, most decent fighters use a counter system in some form. Grapples aside from a few basic throws are irrelevant in a 2D fighter.
.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying grapple characters are not needed? No they are not needed but they would add a variety to the game. If you are saying throws are irrelevant in 2D fighters (which I really hope you are not) you could not be more wrong


This requires clarification, a grapple character wouldn't work so well in a 2D fighter, for one it doesn't seem to look quite right and two if we dont see a counter throw system they might get an unfair advantage. throw/grapple based characters seem to work a lot better in 3D fighters.


ah I see. I disagree though. Zangief pretty much invented the grapple based character, and he is a part of a 2D fighting series. KoF, MvC, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, they all have grapplers. They work in 2D

The well known counter to grapplers is simply creating distance and attacking when they grab. You also can't combo into throws.

Would a grappler work in MK? I don't see why not.
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FlamingTP
06/19/2010 07:15 AM (UTC)
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hmm it has been awhile since I discussed zangief(sp?) if Boon could pull that off I would be interested, its been a long time.

Now to delve a bit deeper, most of my ideas are for a 3D MK but this will give me some challenge.

Say we have Shang, the young MK2 version in this new MK. I figure he would go about his original MK:DA Design but a lot better. Sort of like a kung fu master. He doesn't attack a lot or in rapid succession. but when he does attack he hits fast and hard with stunning blows, this idea is a bit sabotoged by the x-ray system though. I dont like the SF power bar theory, but I'm warming up to it the more I watch the video.

As far as the Bar's speedy charge, Developers usually rig the specials in such a way to demonstrate the mechanic. if you watch the video you will notice the bars just fill up for no apparent reason sometimes. they did it with starcraft and diablo when demoing the games as well. I'm not too worried. What I do want though here is some way to make it harder to execute. Like when you start the xray combo, your oponent can dodge it if he's good enough or you have to press the right buttons to keep the combo going. I dont want the magic I win Street Fighter button approach to the super moves.
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 07:34 AM (UTC)
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can't believe I didn't see that lol.
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FlamingTP
06/19/2010 07:38 AM (UTC)
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check later in the video when the developers are just messing around. The bars move at their normal pace. even then the speed can always be adjusted.
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Joe-Von-Zombie
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06/19/2010 09:36 AM (UTC)
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Id like to see some form of special counter return like subbys Icy counter, but ya know for everyone.

sips some dew.
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Apocalypse27
06/19/2010 04:16 PM (UTC)
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I dunno if anyone has paid attention to this, but from the little gameplay footage we've seen, has anyone noticed what the longest combo was?

You guys think there should be a juggle limit? Or no juggle limit so long as the damage and scaling doesn't get ridiculous?
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hjs-Q
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06/19/2010 05:53 PM (UTC)
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My impressions from Gamespot's vid:

General

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1K0MfJcMBY&feature;=player_embedded#!

Still not enough frames. though the game overall seems faster and a bit more fluid than MKvsDC.

Wake Up - look at 0:42, see how Scorp falls, rolls, and it says: Recovery. So do we have wake up? not sure but the "Recovery" thing is good sign.

MK2 style combos: jump kick, teleport, spear, combo...

Jump Punches juggles, personally i don't like it.

Throws do less damage than in past games. Scorp's does 9%, Reptiles does 11%

X-Ray: yeah i know, it is very vrey cool but it does wayyyyyy too much damage. Also see how Johnny Cage can continue with a combo after it! please fix it...

Scorpion

- Spear: still to slow to use.
- Teleport: same thing
- Hellfire: seems very good, almost broken. hits grounded opponent and executes very fast
- Some sort of flaming uppercut, not sure if it's a special, maybe a good combo ender.
- Air Throw: yay, i love air throws.
- Leg Takedown: Very similer to MKvsDC version.

Scorp X-Ray does 39%, seems waaay too much damage.
Scorp throw (if it is) only does 9%!

- A quick sword thingy that pops, fast and juggles. seems like a mid, so scorp has a 50\50 game.

Sub Zero

- Freeze: looks very avoidable
- Ground Freeze, has a huge hit box, much bigger than MK2 version
- Slide: you can continue with a combo

Sub can freeze mid combo, then freeze again. please test it.

Sektor

- Teleport: Looks like it was sped up, finally. Perheps you can actually avoid projectiles with it.
- Homing Missle: Sektor is very open for attacks when he does it, so any projectile trade from Sub Zero for example is a disadvantage for him.
- Upward Missile: After he shoots he can immediately teleport, seems like a noobish trap to me,
- Flamethrower: Seems useless

- His throw does 11%

Reptile

- Forceball: FINALLY he got it back! he has a fast and a slow one.
- Dash: seems to have to variations of it, one of it is perheps the slide (?) and the other is a short dash that looks very useful in combos.

With the two forceballs and the dash he looks like a great combo damage potential

Kung Lao

- Horizonal Hat Throw: Faster than MKDA-MKA
- Vertical Hat Throw: He has it again, and like older games, you can combo from it. Let's hope it's not broken this time.
- Spin: will be good if it hits mid.
- Teleport: quite slow.

Throw: 11%

Mileena

- Roll: Looks like it has this weird start up thing which makes it quite avoidable
- Telekick: slow. probably juggles her on block.
- Jumps and eats your face: Not sure if it's a thorw or not cause you can see her using it in a combo. does 11%
- Sais: ok...

Nightwolf

off topic but I just hate him. anyhow:

- Uppercut: he has it back, if it's mid it's very good, high will make it a bit useless
- Lightning: Looks like it's easily avoidable, with a small hit box. probably unblockable
- Shoulder Charge: combo ender
- Bow and Arrow: nothing special

Johnny Cage

- Weird green hand thing: have no idea what it does
- Shadow Kick: meh
- Pop up Kick: he got his MK2 kick again
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TheBigCityToilet
06/19/2010 06:07 PM (UTC)
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Was it just me or did Sub-Zero recover from the Hellfire really fast?
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SubMan799
06/19/2010 07:03 PM (UTC)
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So far it looks like only Cages X-Ray move looks combo-able. It dealt 44% which is reasonable. I mean, look at the ultras in SSFIV. Blanka's takes out half your health! Besides, you can't combo into that X-Ray move because it looks like it starts with a parry.

Something I did notice was that Sektor almost landed an X-Ray move mid-combo. Hopefully the damage gets scaled down.

Apocalypse27 Wrote:
I dunno if anyone has paid attention to this, but from the little gameplay footage we've seen, has anyone noticed what the longest combo was?

You guys think there should be a juggle limit? Or no juggle limit so long as the damage and scaling doesn't get ridiculous?


No, there should not be a juggle limit. They need to scale the damage properly.
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m0s3pH
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06/19/2010 09:59 PM (UTC)
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I disagree with characters having different amounts of health. That's a surefire way to badly unbalance the game in a hurry.
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SonOf100Maniacs
06/20/2010 12:24 AM (UTC)
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SubMan799 Wrote:
Something I did notice was that Sektor almost landed an X-Ray move mid-combo. Hopefully the damage gets scaled down.


It seems like that x-ray move starts with the missile because the explosion looks a lot bigger that his regular missiles.

Sub can freeze mid combo, then freeze again. please test it


I don't think that was a normal freeze, but instead a special normal attack that freezes them for a split second. If it isn't, then maybe part of the reason he could freeze again was because it was an ex, pro move, whatever type of freeze.

And I also noticed the 3 times somebody rolled out it said recovery above the opponents super bar, which is an odd place to put it, so it seems wake-up is definitely in this game.
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FlamingTP
06/20/2010 02:50 AM (UTC)
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If you watch the latest video posted here the PR guy talks about comboing xray moves for 60-70% damage.
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Benzo2010
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06/20/2010 03:01 AM (UTC)
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I really think the X-ray moves should either be pulled or broken with a breaker. Please Boon do not add any gimmicks to the game. I would of love MK vs DC if it wasn't for Free fall, Close quarters, and Rage. I beg you to just stick to the meat and potatoes and leave the gimmicks out! Or else the game will be right back on the shelves at gamestop!
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FlamingTP
06/20/2010 03:35 AM (UTC)
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Benzo2010 Wrote:
I really think the X-ray moves should either be pulled or broken with a breaker. Please Boon do not add any gimmicks to the game. I would of love MK vs DC if it wasn't for Free fall, Close quarters, and Rage. I beg you to just stick to the meat and potatoes and leave the gimmicks out! Or else the game will be right back on the shelves at gamestop!
I agree, SF power Meter needs to go.
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TheBigCityToilet
06/20/2010 03:42 AM (UTC)
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FlamingTP Wrote:
Benzo2010 Wrote:
I really think the X-ray moves should either be pulled or broken with a breaker. Please Boon do not add any gimmicks to the game. I would of love MK vs DC if it wasn't for Free fall, Close quarters, and Rage. I beg you to just stick to the meat and potatoes and leave the gimmicks out! Or else the game will be right back on the shelves at gamestop!
I agree, SF power Meter needs to go.

As a whole? I dunno about THAT...maybe the supers can be tweaked or omitted, but the meter itself looks like a decent mechanic.
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