Yeah, MK seriously needs a throw system that actually works and is more useful.

DanHibikiFan Wrote: Yeah, MK seriously needs a throw system that actually works and is more useful.

YES! Exactly, in namcos fighting games the throws and the throw system are excellent.THe next mk should have badass throws like sc2.

_NE0_ Wrote: thats about the only thing MKDA needs but what is stopping it from being the #1 fighter isnt anything gameplay related, its the MK community. people who dont want to compete. the MK community is y MKDA is not at ANY major tourneys and it has resulted in MK no longer being a mainstream fighter. even with online play, if the Mk community doesnt change MK6 will suffer the same fate as MKDA. i mean, most likley Mk6 will have some lag and some people will have no lag and others will have huge lag. it wont be fair to decide who is better like that. so if the Mk community doesnt get off their ass and actually leave their homes to travel for tourneys Mk6 will be like MKDA, a game thats only played for "fun" but not if u want to compete.

I don't think that's the case at all. SvC2 has an awesome online community that decides who's the best on a weekly basis. The best players keep winning. Lag or not. The same can happen with MK6 if Midway takes notes from SvC2. Yeah SvC2 is at major tournies and so are all other games that are in arcades. MK isn't anymore man. Realize that. Another reason is they don't want MK at tournies. TiT5 was the first and only big tourney it was at. From what I read around the boards months after TiT5 (had no computer access at the time so I didn't even know a tourney was happening), MKDA had a hard time getting in there in the first place. Sure you can say the low outcome of the tourney made it that way, but you know that's a load of crap. MK is the laughing stock of fighters. You'll see hell freeze over before you ever see an MK at EVO.


If MK was in arcades I would agree with you. But times have changed with MK. Being scattered across all three platforms also hurts it. Usually home systems are for practice while arcade cabinets are for the real deal. Not the case anymore. Online will be the best thing to happen to the series in quite some time. As for your "it isn't a mainstream fighter anymore", it's the best selling fighting game this gen. I don't see how that isn't mainstream.

more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves,more moves

Mmmmmm, good thread.

Basically, if you want to compete with the Tekken, SC2, and VF4's of the world you need to focus on an actual priority system, and get much MUCH more in depth in the fighting styles and character move sets.

The main problem with MKDA IMO is even tho most characters have different labeled styles and move sets, they basically all play the same.

Lets compare MKDA styles with that of VF4:

Take Judo for instance, Now VF4 EVO has Goh who is a judo fighter, he's slow, hard to control and has a very small combo game, but take the time to learn him and he can take out some serious top tier compeition such as Akira.

Now if you actually look into Goh's move set, and watch any decent player use him, you can tell AM2 went out of their way to test the distance, priority, and speed of every single throw and reversal Goh has which defines his Judo style.

Now lets look at the Judo character in MKDA (JAX). Now when using him, what really defines his style? Maybe 2-3 different looking throws, none of which really give Jax more of an advantage than anyone else in the game. All the other moves in that style are just rehashes of normal high or low hits.

An even greater example would be Drunken Style Kung Fu, in VF4 EVO Shun Di is considered one of the best characters in the game, his power (when drunk), speed and unpredictability make him almost unstoppable. But if you look at his move sets (which go up to about 60-70 different moves), you can easily see his moves are totally different from anyone else and each move has their own range, speed, and hit-status designed specifically for shun's size and style.

Now if you look at Bo Rai cho, his dunken style has MAYBE 20 destinct moves, none of which really do more damage or are completely different than normal punches and kicks by the other characters.

Now of course I am comparing to VF4 EVO, but the idea still holds true for SC2 and Tekken. When you use IVY in SC2, ask yourself how many of her moves you can actually compare with other characters in terms of speed, hit range, damage ratio. It's very difficult to actually pinpoint a character IVY compares to because her style is SO much different with almost every move.

In summation (hehe), I honestly never would put MKDA in the same league as those games, because MK has always been more about story, characters, and the whole MK universe for me. And that is why I liked it, because it had those things even tho the gameplay wasn't as deep.
Games like VF4 and Tekken really don't have a strong story to base themselves on and instead focus on the fighting and competition aspect of the game.

But if you are really trying to break into the hardcore gamer market with the next installment of MK, spend more time on things like priority, indentifiable character move sets, and definatley work on the throw and reversal game.

-DN

I agree with alot of the comments, thanks guys.
I think MK definitely lacks comp.
I think the only way to do that is for MK to become a legitamate fighter.

One way to do that would be deeper gameplay.

what exactly is more in depth game play? I'm formulating ideas in my head, from the research that I've been doing.

I've also been playing SC2 quite a bit. Gettin the hang of it...hopefully I can win that tournament next Saturday.

SC2 is very different from MK.

rayrokka Wrote: what exactly is more in depth game play?MK.

...that is prolly one of the best questions anyone could ever ask. To bad the answer isn't as staight forward. Funny, the most fundamental questions have the most mind racking answers anc conclusions.

IMHO, depth is viewed differently by different people. Some people think everything has to be super technical, like VF. Varrying weight and height properties for the fighters; mid, low, high blocking and throw escapes. Some people aren't as anal about these things.

It stands to reason that these things are looked at by many of the hardcore. If they see these attributes they become less destructive of the game...at first. If it does't turn out after a few months of play things get a little ugly.

My personal theory on depth is as fallows: Depth is the universal and "logically" technical relationship between the game and the player. Which is represented and presented through diverse characters; in the aspects of movement, properties, and over all style of play for each character. Keeping the tech diverse, yet consistent is key.

And that...is no bull-shit .

There are tons of ideas to make gameplay more in depth, its just how far is the MK team willing to go within the time limit they have.

Example: Instead of doing auto-combo's with preset button combinations, create a better juggle system. Games like VF4 and SC2 use a juggle system which allows players to customize their combos.

Before MKDA was out I had the idea that I could juggle a character in one stance, switch stances mid combo and keep floating him. While technically you can do this with SOME characters, the idea never seemed to be fully realized. So what you need to do is create a system which determines the speed, push, and pop-up height attached to each move for a character. Then when you float an opponent, the player must determine for themselves which moves will work together to juggle the character before they get pushed to far away.

The way the MKDA system seems to work right now, is the computer will determine how many hits a player can connect on a juggle, and if you hit the limit the next attack will not register, EVEN if you can obviously see your character hitting the opponent with an attack, it won't register and the opponent will fall to the ground. This sort of confinement totally undermines a players ability to do a juggle. If you want to limit a characters juggling ability thats fine, but the way to do it is have each hit float your opponent farther away until the character's next move physically cannot connect.

Pop-ups and juggles are one of the best ways to improve gameplay, they layout a foundation for players to test and retest their combo schemes, this will also help create good mind games and zoning tactics between matches because more advanced players will know well enough not to let themselves fall prey to a juggle.

When you put in those cheesy automatic string combos, your basically spoon feeding the player into doing a combo YOU want them to do. While its true Tekken uses 10 hit strings, how often do you really see advanced players use them in tournaments? The answer is almost never, because they are useless and predictable.

Well there are alot of other things you can do, but this should get you started.

-DN

great observations guys....

more!!

I'm totally with you on alot of those topics

Well, I can think of a few things at the moment that would make MK a better fighter...

1: Each character needs to be more diversified. Ray you know what I think of DA already, but the only difference between the characters are their respective special moves, ability (taunt, powerup, reversal...), and their button combinations.

Other than that, they are played (controlled) exactly the same. Since we're already comparing DA to SC2, think of how differently you need to play characters such as Nightmare or Astaroth compared to smaller faster characters like Voldo or Spawn even (I'm also sort of a newbie to SC2 and can't think of all of the names). With the larger guys you need to play more of a distance game and anticipate your moves a lot more than with a quicker character.

MK is a very upclose game and SC2 playes a lot on distance. Certain SC2 fighters are very difficult to stop up close and some play much better at a distance. Pretty much all you can do at a distance in MK is throw a projectile.

I think this is why I'm so hooked on Ivy's sword-whip thingy. She has such a variety of close and long distance attacks.

2: More moves/small combos. I would really like to see more variety of single moves & small combos. Basically I do like the large number hit combos in MK but they need more setup to them.

I'd like to see some sort of move buffering in MK where you can input your next move at the right time and possibly catch your opponent off guard.
But Deadly Alliance has certain properties that prevent this (a few frames where you can not move, block, or attack). It would be cool to have a properly timed buffered move over ride this. You could still have a short delay between attacks, but you would not be defenseless.

Oh, and the weapons... I remember you telling me, Ray, that in the early stages of MK:DA a lot of the characters had a common weapon similar to Shang Tsungs's sword. It's a very good thing that everyone got a different weapon in the end, but they lack depth. Most of them have their basic one-shot moves and a combo or two... that's it.

In MK, how often do you really want to use your weapon? I find myself skipping weapons actually more often then using them because of lack of uses.

Midway did a great job of working on individual fighting styles, but how much thought was put into weapon attacks? I think adding depth here will offer a lot more for this game.

...Now for something completly different...

suggestion/question:
I really liked having real world figting styles in MK, but is this what limited the depth of the game? Maybe either combine the styles, eliminate them and have fantasy(ish) styles, or have some sort of universal attacks so each character has unique moves that are executable in any fighting style.

just my thoughts...

BTW, kick ass that you placed 2nd in that tourney, too bad I couldn't make it... Maybe next week!

I agree on the juggle system statement. A severe limit on the x/y axis for juggles is weak. A persons wall game will be limited becuase of this as well. Also, if it was possible to cancel out of certain auto-strings that in its self would create more depth. You can do it a little in DA, but it seams it could be more effective. I don't know, I'll stop babbling, heh.

Damn, Ray, you're scaring me with this gameplay fetish. Peep your PM, if you havn't already.

Well what about some sort of endurance meter? Let me explain... Let's say in real life, you fight someone. After a while, you'd get worn out right because you've exerted yourself a lot right? And your speed and movements won't be as good so what I'm saying is that perhaps you should have this sort of thing. And the more your character attacks, then the higher the meter goes up and the higher the meter goes up, your character's speed will go down and his/her moves will be less effective. And if you let you character rest, then they can get a bit of their effectiveness back etc. Now, I don't think that the meter should always go up whenever doing more attacks. It should depend what attacks you are using.

If they put everything they said they would put in it ,that's all I ask...hell I would be alot happier if they had full motion around the level and stage fatalities

OK...now I've heard that the throw system needs work.

What 3D fighter has the best throw system? Are throws a good way of equalizing experienced combo oriented players?

Intricate or simple?
Should throws be free?
Grab only standing if its a high throw?
more low throws
button combo or stick movement? Both?
joint locks?

rayrokka Wrote: OK...now I've heard that the throw system needs work. What 3D fighter has the best throw system? Are throws a good way of equalizing experienced combo oriented players? Intricate or simple? Should throws be free? Grab only standing if its a high throw? more low throws button combo or stick movement? Both? joint locks?

Both Tekken and VF have good throw systems. But the system has both intricate and simple button commands for character throws.

For example, everyone in Tekken has two basic types of throws, By pressing both punch buttons or both kick buttons at the same time. This style also holds true with VF4, by pressing punch and grab at the same time a throw is performed.

Now what both these games have (and MKDA lacks) are more intricate throws which A. Do a size-able amount more damage than a normal throw and B. Have to be earned by making players input special button combinations and or joystick movements to either start the throw or continue in a series of locks (ie King from tekken or Vanessa from VF4).

I think if you are going to continue to use styles such as Judo and Akido in MKDA ou might as well use them effectively by putting in throws which suit their individual style. If for example you are using Jax, in his Judo style he should have various (intricate command) throws which do more damage to an opponent than just the default throw eveyone else gets.

If someone chooses to use Jax, they should do so knowing full well that his Judo style is ment for grappling, and should play him accordingly, which means alot of forward-dash techniques and close up combat. They should also know that while in the Judo stance lengthy combos and launchers aren't garunteed. Conversely, if you were playing against a Judo or Akido player, you may want to keep a good amount of distance from your opponent ( this is where the zoning tactics come into play).

Most games start intricate throw commands with the stick movement, even from the good ole days of Zangief and SF2 you needed to do an intricate 360 stick movement to perform a command piledriver, and this has been carried on in almost all fighting games ever since, it's basically a tried and true method you don't want to go against if you are trying to pull in the hardcore crowd.

As for Joint locks, well thats a different story. Tekken's King and Nina joint locks use timed button combinations to pull off the appropriate continuation of the throw series. However VF4 uses joystick AND button combinations to continue a throw series, so both methods work, you just have to make sure that being able to pull off a command throw is challenging enough for a veteran player to pull off, but not so easy that anyone just picking up the controller can do it.

Normal throws (the throws each character gets) should only be free to standing and blocking opponents. However if a player is ducking OR counterattacking during the time of a high throw a priority system needs to be in place which makes sure that the throw will NOT get through. If an opponent is ducking the simple solution is to implement a low throw system where the controller needs to be pressed diagnally down, or down while you are performing the default throw.

There is so much to the throw game that I could fill up half this forum with posts, but I think I have covered the much needed changes pretty well.

-DN

VF has a very intricate throw system and escape system, not sure if it's the best, but it's very intricate. From my limited knowledge of VF you escape throws by pressing P+G then a coresponding direction - depending if it's high, low, etc.

Now T4 - something I'm more familar with - on the other hand is different. If you look at the grabing animations you'll notice that they either lead with the right, left, or both hands. You break the throw by inputing the button that corespnds with the leading hand(s). If the throw leads with the right you break the throw with 2, or RP. That rule corespnds with basic - 2+4/2+4~B, etc - throws.

Command throws on the other hand involve more directional manipulation - say Craigs d/b,d/b+1+2. Many of these throws require a 1+2 escape. Why? Becuase the grab leads with both hands. Other command throws require a 1 for escape. Then there are special instances, such as one of Kings ground locks which requires a 3+4 escpae, and I belive that is a leg lock if i'm not mistaken. Some throws cannot be escaped, such as Nina's qcb+1+4, or some parts in Kings multi-throws.

Ok, simply put. T's throw system works like this. For the most part 2+4 throw escapes - right side - are a escaped with 2, or RP. And 1+3 escapes with 1, LP. Command throws - qcb+1/f,f+1+2 etc - are escaped with a 1 or 1+2. You escape with what ever hand is leading to grab you. Agian this isn't "always" true - as said there are abnormalities - but it's the basic system Tekken uses. If you think about it, it's very logical and makes sense.

Then you get to the priority of throws. In which case, many command throws are faster than standard throws. Kings 2+4 is 12 frames, while his f,hcf+1 is 10 frames. Now, take ninas un-escapable mutli-starter, qcb+1+4. Yes it's fast, yes you CANNOT escape it with break. However, the timming to continue the rest of the multi-throw is very fast and can be broken any time after qcb+1+4. To bad you can smash multis in T4, eh?

Damn, i hate writing long posts, I always feel like I'm bull-shiting. Which I'm not, heh. Anywho, hope this helps a bit.

Anybody remember Fighter's Destiny for the 64?
I always liked their throw system, in that you had a bar to press the escape buttons (which were always the same).
How about combining something like that with different escapes (buttons) for each throw?
Harder to perform throws would have a smaller meter, and therefore a smaller opportunity to escape the throw. Of course, pressing the wrong escape wouldn't do you any favours, as it could deplete the meter.

The way joint locks worked was there was a bar, and both players would press buttons as best they could. As long as the bar had some value in it, damage would continue to the opponent.
The player applying the joint lock, would be increasing the meter, while the player suffering from the lock would be depleting the meter (which it does by it's own, but this speeds it up).
When the meter depletes, of course, the opponent is released from the lock.

While I do prefer something like Tekken's throw system, I haven't seen anything like what was described above implemented again.
It's probably not the best throw system, but I thought their idea for locks is pretty good.

tekken has the best throw system

_NE0_ Wrote: tekken has the best throw system

yeah...


what will it take to draw the hardcore audience, legitamize MK as a real fighter, and keep the casual and serious player interested???

fatalities are novel and they do lose their interest after awhile. Even the casual gamer needs more than fatalities to stay interested...
The hardcore gamer needs in depth systems that are well balanced AND fun to play with.

where are all the players???

how do we keep them interested?

_NE0_ Wrote: tekken has the best throw system

Strictly oppinion, but I agree as well. Namco does a good job with the grapple system. I'd study that and make it a model of reference. I think VF has a very good system, too; but dude, God knows this lazy ass white boy can't break that shit on reflex. The standard VF throw is what, 8-10 frames?! Uh, yah...no thanks.

rayrokka Wrote: _NE0_ Wrote: tekken has the best throw system yeah... what will it take to draw the hardcore audience, legitamize MK as a real fighter, and keep the casual and serious player interested??? fatalities are novel and they do lose their interest after awhile. Even the casual gamer needs more than fatalities to stay interested... The hardcore gamer needs in depth systems that are well balanced AND fun to play with. where are all the players??? how do we keep them interested?

Honestly, it would take a miracle LOL, most of the hardcore fighting game players out there have a bitter hatred for MK, it really doesn't matter what you do to the game, it's still MK to them.

If you go over to shoryuken.com and even mention the name MKDA they will flame you off of the boards so quick it will make your head spin.

The Cannon brothers would never allow MK to be part of EVO, which is basically one of the largest videogame tournies held every year in the US. Fighters from all over the world from Japan, Australia, China, and Korea go their to play for massive prizes, and this year they let in Tekken, VF, SC2, and GGX2 which is a first for the tournament, and it was a huge success.

I remember when someone asked why MKDA wasn't gonna be at EVO in the SRK forums, I think he got like 20 flames then the mod closed his thread and told us never to speak of it again lol.

If you want to legitamize MK, the only way to do it is beg and plead Midway to have tournies for the game, like BIG tournaments where MK fans would want to come and join in the fun. I have been trying to warm Scott up to the idea of having one sponsored by MK5.ORG, but right now we are busy with various other projects.This way you would have a large number of players who play for the competition, and not the fatalities and secrets, because lets be honest, fatalities and secrets are nice and all, but wear thin 5 minutes after you find them. If you could develop an online ranking system for MK6 it would definately keep the game fun by having a large database where players can track their stats and those of other MK player around the world, sort of like APEX, but for MK.

It's funny, APEX is the most legitamate ranking system on the internet for fighting games today, and it was developed by 2 college kids in california, heh.

-DN

I already know that I would implement an online ranking system

I don't have that power...

I'm not an official member of the team.
I am ESP.

I'm trying to make ESP the best game I can...ESP is lookin great too!

But like in the past, MK is my hobby and if the rock gets passed to me, you can bet I will run with it. So I'm doing my homework now.

Luck is when preperation meets opportunity...thats how I got on DA.

I was always an MK fanboy...and I got an opportunity. Then I got lucky.

I just wanna be ready "If" I get the opportunity.
Then, maybe I will get lucky, again.

working as a designer is helping alot too...giving me the much needed design experience needed for intricate fighting systems.

Like today I am designing cohesive game design docs for ESP. Detailed and to the point, ready to be handed off to a programmer for implementation.

Communication is everything.

DigitalNinja Wrote: rayrokka Wrote: _NE0_ Wrote: tekken has the best throw system yeah... what will it take to draw the hardcore audience, legitamize MK as a real fighter, and keep the casual and serious player interested??? fatalities are novel and they do lose their interest after awhile. Even the casual gamer needs more than fatalities to stay interested... The hardcore gamer needs in depth systems that are well balanced AND fun to play with. where are all the players??? how do we keep them interested? Honestly, it would take a miracle LOL, most of the hardcore fighting game players out there have a bitter hatred for MK, it really doesn't matter what you do to the game, it's still MK to them. If you go over to shoryuken.com and even mention the name MKDA they will flame you off of the boards so quick it will make your head spin. The Cannon brothers would never allow MK to be part of EVO, which is basically one of the largest videogame tournies held every year in the US. Fighters from all over the world from Japan, Australia, China, and Korea go their to play for massive prizes, and this year they let in Tekken, VF, SC2, and GGX2 which is a first for the tournament, and it was a huge success. I remember when someone asked why MKDA wasn't gonna be at EVO in the SRK forums, I think he got like 20 flames then the mod closed his thread and told us never to speak of it again lol. If you want to legitamize MK, the only way to do it is beg and plead Midway to have tournies for the game, like BIG tournaments where MK fans would want to come and join in the fun. I have been trying to warm Scott up to the idea of having one sponsored by MK5.ORG, but right now we are busy with various other projects.This way you would have a large number of players who play for the competition, and not the fatalities and secrets, because lets be honest, fatalities and secrets are nice and all, but wear thin 5 minutes after you find them. If you could develop an online ranking system for MK6 it would definately keep the game fun by having a large database where players can track their stats and those of other MK player around the world, sort of like APEX, but for MK. It's funny, APEX is the most legitamate ranking system on the internet for fighting games today, and it was developed by 2 college kids in california, heh. -DN

rayrokka Wrote: I already know that I would implement an online ranking system I don't have that power... I'm not an official member of the team. I am ESP. I'm trying to make ESP the best game I can...ESP is lookin great too! But like in the past, MK is my hobby and if the rock gets passed to me, you can bet I will run with it. So I'm doing my homework now. Luck is when preperation meets opportunity...thats how I got on DA. I was always an MK fanboy...and I got an opportunity. Then I got lucky. I just wanna be ready "If" I get the opportunity. Then, maybe I will get lucky, again. working as a designer is helping alot too...giving me the much needed design experience needed for intricate fighting systems. Like today I am designing cohesive game design docs for ESP. Detailed and to the point, ready to be handed off to a programmer for implementation. Communication is everything.

Ah I see, well good luck with ESP, it definatley shows promise!

If anything I think you should try and gather as much info about 3D fighting game design as possible and send something out to the MK team just to give them some ideas. It would be a shame to let all the good suggestions in this thread go to waste.

Anyways, good luck!

-DN

Theres a thread on SRK right now regarding what people think of MK. It might be the same thread, but it's not closed, soo yah, whatever.

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/thread40443.php#newpost

As far as keeping peeps interested? Well, if you have two things; that which the casual player wants - fats, branch-strings, bouncey tities, quality character design, specials, unlockable stuff - they will be satisfied for a while, as you said. Second, you have the depth which hardcore peeps are down with. It's human nature to experiment, be competitve, try to gain "power" and "knowledge". At least on a subconcious level, anyways. So sooner or later Jo-Blow the noob is going to run across something in the system. Maybe he discovers move A on counter hit leads to guarunteed move B. He gets all giddy, owns his peeps with it and continues to strive to get better. Discovering new mix-ups, strats, etc. The deeper system has now affected him in the way he thinks about the game and fighting game in general. Maybe in a few years he'll be in Korea gettiing down with some international comp...and some international lovin'.

Anywho, VF, SC have all that unlockable, secret fluff crap in the console versions. Yet they have depth. And if im not mistaken, there are quite a few SC fan boys on this board. Basicly, if the fluff is used to keep the player interested they will have no choice but to eventually be affected by the depth of the game. The beautiful part is when they dont' even notice it, they just want to keep learning more and more.

I started reading the thread...

not all of it is bad.

and Lex a former MK tester is championing the cause to some degree. I think people that don't like MK can't play it...simple.

I wish they would let MK into EVO...it would help alot I think.