I feel so shitty not being able to post up my ideas because of a lack of time and a computer, but I did right some ideas into a note book. The note book is 70 pages, and all my ideas took up the whole damn thing..not front and back, but whatever. Ill have it all up by september or something : P

Oh, and Tekken has the best throw system by far. Go rent tekken 4 ray. Check out how characters like Marshall Law uses Jeet Kune Do. How Hwoarang use Tae Kwon Do, and how Jin uses Karate. Then you'll know some stuff that is needed for MK6.

I just had another thought that would bring good life to mkda

Let me use Scorpions Hapkido for example....

Rather than characters having three styles...let them have two styles that have an offensive and defensive mode.
For example Hapkido's offensive mode will include strikes of hapkido and various combos, then pressing the style switch button would change hapkido into defensive where throws and joint locks are utilised. The techniques in defensive mode would require different button combinations like for combos to execute joint locks/throws....each mode can intricatally designed to counter ttack each other thus improving gameplay
Obviously some balance is required here...
I cant explain how to implement this but i hope you guys can picture what i am picturing...i'll talk more on this later

nindz Wrote: I just had another thought that would bring good life to mkda Let me use Scorpions Hapkido for example.... Rather than characters having three styles...let them have two styles that have an offensive and defensive mode. For example Hapkido's offensive mode will include strikes of hapkido and various combos, then pressing the style switch button would change hapkido into defensive where throws and joint locks are utilised. The techniques in defensive mode would require different button combinations like for combos to execute joint locks/throws....each mode can intricatally designed to counter ttack each other thus improving gameplay Obviously some balance is required here... I cant explain how to implement this but i hope you guys can picture what i am picturing...i'll talk more on this later

I know what you're getting at. I personally think that every character shouldn't have three styles, hell, some shouldn't have weapons. Perhaps for their weapon they could have a deflecting object, like a shield, which could be implemented in various ways. But, yah, whatever. Enough of my fan boy-ish comments.

As far as the whole defensive style goes, it does work. It works for Venessa in VF, sooo, it can be done effectively. Either way, varrying amounts of styles for the characters should be limited, IMO. I believe that it would be another one of those "single" ideas/theories that could create much needed diversity amongst the characters. Nice to see this thread back at the top, where it belongs . Peace and love ya'll.

*sends it back to top*

versaout!

Let's put it this way Ray. If it weren't for the community MKDA would be one of the worst fighting games ever made.

Think about it. It would be been balanced..yes, but it would be been side step,punish,side step,punish..etc. Not enough moves are safe. Lows don't do enough damage, no oki, reversal system sucks,throw system sucks, kindergarden stance system sucks. The game at it's core is just bad, but strangely the glitches saved it. Back dash cancels made moves that normally suck safe. Universal Tracking made side stepping near pointless, and all sorts of other things made MKDA great.

Now I may seem like I hate DA and midway, but that is far from true. MKDA is one of my favorite games of all time and I think all of you guys a midway rock, but for MK6 try to make depth. Not side step and punish, not pre made branch combos, not easy stance entrances, useless weapons and stupid infinites,but depth. Buy Tekken 4,Soul Calibur 2,Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution,Tekken Tag Tournament and learn the reasons why all the goes got way higher scores than MKDA, and most importantly, learn why hardcore players of the games I just listed will never give MK a chance unless spoon fed shit is gone. Most of the people who bought MKDA are either hardcore MK junkies like us or teenagers who like MK and enjoy the fatalities. I assure almost no hardcore fighting game fan purchased, but if you make a deep game they'll be all over it. Two Million? Please, take two million and multiply it by like 3 if you can get the midway staff to fix the problems.

I repeat..I love MKDA, but it's simply an unfinished product.

versatile Wrote: Buy Tekken 4,Soul Calibur 2,Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution,Tekken Tag Tournament...

Come on dude he does this for a living now... He's got those already (most of em anyways) and has had a couple SC2 tourney's at his place that I was able to partake in too.

And we already know you wouldn't be here if you didn't enjoy MK as much as you do, so no hard feelings if you say something critical about the game. Criticism is a big part in improvment, so keep the opinions & ideas coming!

True say satyagarha.
I also agree with versatile.
The fact that mkda does seem to be the "sidestep/punish" style of play, does seem to limit the gameplay.
But in any sense, i think all members reading this thread should make a bullet point list of what's in/out for the next installment.

For me:

• No style specials....reason being, that button can used to counter joint locks/throws.
  Thinks about power-ups....the characters that have them should be strong naturally. Also as i mentioned about reversals, scrapping them and working on an excellent defensive system.
  
• Limit the styles per character. Focus on individual styles themselves and have an option of choosing your own styles. So far, in MKDA, there are 42 styles and 21 weapon styles. Altogether that caters for 21 characters as you know.
  My point is to work on 21 styles and making them and working on them efficiently. Common defensive and offensive motions for the styles, and have them stress tested with other styles.
  So even if 42 styles were implemented, we can potentially have up to 42 characters although that would prolly complicate things. Like someone stated before....MKDA characters are virtually the same in the sense the have different moves under a differently labeled style.
  
• Speaking of styles....Let's take characters like subzero and jax. Everyone knows these guys are powerful and strong.....So when these guys use shotokan and muay thai etc.....there moves will have a huge impact, as compared to characters like shang tsung and li mei, who wont use the moves powerfully but more so quickly.
  
• I dont know how many will agree with me on this but mk4 had the best option system - mainly a decent practice mode.
  
• Work out an excellent system of offense and defense. Make it so no novices, just hold block all the time but instead have it timed......in a sense this will bring a new challenge to mk gamers...thier reactions/reflexes will improve....
  

I basically explained what i'd like to see in my other posts as well as this....this is just an addition to what i think.

Since I don't have my 70 pages of MK6 ideas with me..i'll just post up some things that are basically must have. Stay tuned for the huge ass mk6 wish list though.

*Gotsta Goes*

1. Backdash cancel - This broke the game in case you guys at midway haven't noticed. If you took away the back dash cancel look at who would of been toned down. First off Scorpion would be solid mid tier at best. Drahmin would suck. Shang wouldn't be as good either. I know this is a glitch and probably wont return since you guys know better, but please be careful to acknowledge this and take it out. It almost ruined DA, don't let it ruin MK6.

2. Universal Tracking - this is both a curse and a blessing. If it weren't for this glitch MKDA would suck since it would be all side step and punish, but if it weren't for this glitch MKDA would probably be the most balanced game of all time since every character has the ability to sidestep and punish. In the long run..just take it out. It's gay and it's the reason why fast jabbers are so damn good in this game.

3. Gay side stepping engine - DA's side step system is very bad. See, in every fighting game besides DA, a characters side step is always the same wheter the character is being attacked or not. It's always the same speed, length and animation. But this is not the case in DA. In DA the regular side step sucks since it's slow and doesn't cover enough ground, but it gets even gayer when it goes into "here comes an attack" mode. The character takes a huge step that's like 3 frames and you hear this gay swoosh sound. Fix this. Sidestepping should always be the same no matter what. Make more of a variety of moves that don't go vertical so that it limits the stepping, but don't make this gay little kindergarden step. It turns hardcore players off.

4. Power Up - If it weren't for the universal track Nitara,Kenshi and Kung Lao would probably be the 3 best in the game. Why? Because all they would have to do is power up,side step and do their 70% damage juggle. The power up

A. Looks Gay and Childish
B. Makes over powering characters

If you ask me..the agressor needs to make a return. The agressor kicked so much ass since EVERYONE had it, it had a cool matrixy blur effect and it wasn't broken. The way to earn your agressor should be the same. the more damage you do the more the word agressor spells out. Once you fully spell out the agressor you can go into it. Unlike MK Trilogy, however, the player should be able to go into the agressor whenever he wants(mid juggle,pre round,etc). Also,besides making characters faster and stronger, the agressor should have character specific attributes. For example, When Shang Tsung gets the agressor he gains back 2% health each time he does tick damage and like 5% each time he does real damage. The problem is that Shang take more damage when in agressor mode. With Jax moves now do half the amount of damage they normally do to him once he is in agressor, the weakness would be that jax can no longer longer throw. Lastly, with Sub-Zero each time he touches you a part of your body will become frozen. Once your whole body is frozen you are immobolized and sub gets his ordinary free damage. The problem would be back that unlike many other characters Sub-Zero would have to sacrifice 20% of his health before going into agressor. Don't forget that the agressor should give you cool elemental effects and stuff. Like with raiden theres way more electricity, with Sub-Zero the ice around his arms and hands are thicker and he has a blue auro. Shit like that.

That's all I can think of for now. I'll post some more shit up later or whenever im online again.

Actaully, SS'ing does not have the same range and properties in every situation; when pertaining to other games. T4 has an "auto-ss." Kinda like DA "swoosh", just not as extreme...or ghey. An example would be the oh so common Jin LS. Lets just deal with the non JF and non delayed LS. It's pretty much when you buffer an ss. For instance: you block b,f+2 and becuase of it's gaurd stun you can buffer the SSR while you block the 1, causing a larger ss on the d+2. Julia gets raped with auto-ss, as well. Im not usre about VF, but from what i've played the ss while avoiding an attack "feels" different from no avoidence. Not, sure, though. Anywho.

For the love of baraka will you tell me who your main character is. If it's scorpion I won't point at you and laugh, if thats what you're worried about.

And yeah, whatever Saty just said is what you should put in MK6 Ray. Don't make the swoosh so exaggerated. In fact, take away the damn swoosh sound while your at it.

versatile Wrote: For the love of baraka will you tell me who your main character is. If it's scorpion I won't point at you and laugh, if thats what you're worried about.

Heh, sorry, I dont' remeber you asking my main. Um, heh, I dont' have a "main", more like a "familar." Prolly Raiden. I got totally down with Shang to begin with, though. Oddly, my Kenshi blows. Before I bought VF I was dabling with Mavado amd was gettomg comfortable.

Anywho, I havn't playd for more than like... a few hourse in the past month or so, lol. It's all about VF - and still T - now. Actually, I'm going to be playing a crap load of Toshinden over the break.

How about improving the sdestepping to the point where its like actual combat...

Everyone knows that the ssence to fighting effectively is footwork....imagine controlling nitara and jax throws a kick...simply by moving away or to the side can cause jax's kicks to be useless. when you walk backwards you still get caugt with attacks.
But that would take time...my opinion is to improve the defensive system as i stated before

Im back with 2 or 4 more things that needs to be in MK6.

1. Special Versions of attacks

For example. There's a character in Tekken 4 called Kazuya Mashima. He has a move called the wind god fist(f,n,d,d/f+2). It's an uppercut that launchers on counter hit(another thing needed in MK6..ill explain that later) does 25 damage and is -10(correct me if im wrong) on block and +something on hit. However, if you do f~n~d~df+2 at light speed he will do the ELECTRIC wind god fist. The move has electric sparks, causes guard stun making it safe and has other properties that I dont really feel like going into. Well, this is needed in MK6. These special version moves should have difficult timing and a hard command and should change the moves properties..for example..Tunda Cold Shoulder with sub zero would come out twice as fast, do much more damage, cause guard stun on block and the animation would be cooler(more ice particles surrounding sub and stuff like that). The balance the move it would go vertical, making it side steppable. Another cool one would be the Netherealm Summon Hellfire. The difference wouldn't be as dramatic as the tundra cold sholder for the hellfire is already great as it is, but it would do more damage, have a much cooler animation(mabe the fire could be shaped like a demon's face) and stun for a longer period of time. These things would make people want to play MK more, and it would attract hardcore 3D gamers since these special version attacks are already in the games they know and love.

2. Frames Advantage

Ray, if there is one thing needed..it is this. Though other things do need to be implimented, MK6 must, and I repeat..MUST have frame advantage. Now, we all know what frame disadvantage is. For example, Scorpion's spear is blocked, scorpion is at a frame disadvantage. I cant count frames, but an educated guess would be that scorpion is at -50 frames when the spear is block. Things like Sub-Zero's Shotokan: 1 is about -2 or so on block. It's punishable, but there is a very small cap. However, frame advantage is the opposite. Let me explain it this way.

When Jax does Muay Thai 2 Jax has no advantage because MKDA has no frame advantage. So if jax does another single 2 after doing 1 single 2, the opponent can quickly interupt. However, if Jax's jab was..say..+8 Jax can pressure the shit out of the opponent because they cannot interupt since the move causes frame advantage. Of course this isnt unbalanced since jax's jabs go vertical and can be ducked and reversed..etc. This would also balance characters like kitana and cyrax out since they would have frame advantage. Also remember that when moves hit they cause more frame advantage then they do if blocked. So if jax's jab is +8 on block, on hit it may be +14.

3. Guard Stun

Sometimes moves have such a huge frame advantage that they cause something called guard stun/crush. So for example..Sub-Zero's Tundra Cold Shoulder causes guard stun. This makes the opponent stumble back a bit and stop blocking. leaving them open for a certain move. For example..if the guard crush is -19. A move that is 1-18 frames is guaranteed after the crush. Get what I'm saying ray? Make sure not to give too many guard crush moves to break the game, and make sure the guard crush isnto too major like 50 or something.

4. The reversal system is so terribly bad in DA, but it is easy to fix. The reversal should allow the opponent a guaranteed 60% damage combo. Instead once the reversal is done the character should automatically do some sort of trick or body slam or somethign that does solid damage, but not crazy combo damage. Also, the animation is terrible. Sometimes the hands dont even come into contact ith the hands or legs. Lastly, the command should be harder than just SM. This was laughed at by tons of hardcore 3D gamers. You need to make it sometimes like b+2+4 or something of another nature, and make sure that Highs/Mids and Lows have two different commands so that reversals are toned down.

5. Low attacks need to do more damage! In games like tekken and soul caliburnot blocking a low could result in you loses 20% damage! Not this little 7% damage shit. For example, Shang Tsung and Sub-Zero's sweeps should both do around atleast 25% damage.

6. Lastly, as MKL stated earlier. High attacks should not hit on the way down. This makes ducking useless. For example take Sub-Zero vs Jax. This match wouldn't be too bad since Sub-Zero WOULD of been able to duck Muay Thai 2 and quickly punish with Dragon d+2 since you can land it off of a duck. But since when Sub Zero ducks he eats the jab, Sub gets screwed. THATS ALL! GOTTA GO TO BIOLOGY! PEACE OUT!

come on ray..a little feed back..

Nothing at all.

Hey Ray if I were you I wouldn't add too much Soul Calibur 2 stuff into MK6. Soul Calibur 2 isnt that great of a game. Concentrate on getting the best aspects of Tekken 4(throw game and ground control) and Virtua Fighter 4(reversals,parries,advance defensive techniques) into there. Soul Calibur 2 really has nothign that would help MK out. I consider MKDA to be a better game than SC2 to be honest.

Wow i couldn't agree with you more on SC2 sucking balls, Vers. It's a nice looking game but it's not really as cool as everyone makes it out to be.
I will say that based on the SC2 system, the game is pretty solid. Not that I really like these properties, but it's consistant. Deep? that's tough... but here's my view on the "deepness" of the game.

Variety of attacks: Yes a long list of moves is nice, but I think what Namco did good on was implementing different attacks depending on the position of your character. For instance, I really like that there's moves "while ducking" and "while rising." These situations are very similar to eachother but are treated differently.

More Variety: Ok I can't think of anything for deepness in Sc2 other than the fact that they have 20some characters that use different weapons (well most of them do). This would naturally make it deep as you have to play a distance/speed game depending on your character.
Ok, well that's all I'm going to think about deepness for the moment. There are a LOT of things I don't like about Soul Calibur, but there are a few things I do like. And as with most games It's fun to play against friends, and I'm also trying to learn as much about fighting games out today as I can. This is why I play SC2... But I still DON'T like the game!

been very busy guys...just keep posting

Cool...I have a shit load of stuff..about a total of like 50 chapters..today ill post up chapter 1(reversals) and chapter 2 (throws)

versatile Wrote: Cool...I have a shit load of stuff..about a total of like 50 chapters..today ill post up chapter 1(reversals) and chapter 2 (throws)

Hey, Ray, I was wondering if you and the dev team have discussed the possibility of chaining and canceling normals for the combo system. Yeah, it's old school, but very efficient. Hell, that style of system is still around in every single 2D game out there.

When you look at branch combos - -_-, heh - they are obviously normals simply strung together. So why not make them cancelable? We've all read how people want less linearity in the branch system. Modeling this system off of the tried and true 2D combo method would achieve that non-linearity.

The branch system as we know it now could obviously still be in place. It's just another dimension of the game that could be used - if implemented correctly - to create much needed diversity amongst the characters. It would also increase the overall speed of the game. Just another avenue to explore. Peace and love ya'll.

I really like this thread, and only skimmed the first couple of posts so you may hear some repeats.

1. Interactive and Multi levels
I hated the stupid barriers in MKDA, and loved DOA 3's levels. When I mean interactive, you can pick up anything along the side and use it. Something hanging, maybe try jumping to it and an attack from there can maybe hurt more. Stage fatalities would fall under this. Well I say if you're very stupid and decide to move off a small beam (Pit 6?) then you deserve to die, so this kinda goes toward mid round fatals. A good round kick can send the person to their doom.

2. Fatalites
Umm yeah get violent again. MK2 old school! Actually some simple head lobs are quite effective.

3. Look and Sound (Fighters)
Give everyone their own look and have different actors do the voices. Heck maybe try to get the MK movie stars if mk6 concides with the 3rd movie. Also take the facial damage up a notch and give us that clothes ripping that was promised.

4. Weapons
A more intricate mess of the MK4 system, where the weapons could be moved between people, but harder to drop. Also some intricate sword fighting would be cool (not block and attack but if two people go with downward slashes they could meet CLANG!)

5. Sounds (Game)
I know X-Box needed this, but custom tracks please? Heck even sell MK and MKA soundtracks with the game. 5.1 DTS sound would be nice too.

6. Krypt
Yeah I want more videos like Cookiing with Scorpion. Also unlock special behind the scenes making of the game videos. Maybe squeeze in the old MK2 arcade for kicks?

7. Old school factor & special moves
This is what was missing, but I like the new engine, but that doesn't mean totally ignore what made MK great. You don't need the old sceme, but some references to it would be nice. I mean throw in the roundhouse and uppercut but vary it for each style. Also don't add it to each style. Special moves? Well some people need more, and they should of been the same combinations of previous games to keep some os factor. I really wanted to do Cages nut punch. Engine was fine.

8. Throws
Where was the Jax gotcha in the air? Or the Scorpion throw in the air? Well slightly modify air throws into air grabs, cause its pretty hard to throw people in mid air.
Throw system? I guess something kinda like wrestlemania 2000 would be pretty cool just speed it up

9. Momentum & Running
I think it would of been cool to build momentum so some moves could have varience in pain. Something done from the air should hurt more, but you're more open. Also if you run (while open) a punch will hurt more than just a standing punch.

10. Shang Tsung morphs
Yeah hard to pull off, but he could atleast turn into the person he was fighting. If there were to be a tag mode in the game, then he could of morphed easily into 3 other people. This could of added some stragedy to who you pick.

11. Hurt certain parts of the body
Tao Fing rip, but hey its nice and could possibly affect other special moves.

12. Counters
1 button? I dunno, make it harder and vary for the position of the attack. DOA 3 again.

13. Konquest
I thought it wouldn't be a robust training mode, but more of an interactive 3dish Mythiologies type part of the game.

14. Game testing
Test the game and let some people try it just to make sure all is good.

The Guide To Fighting Game Perfection

By Chris “Versatile” Iverson


Chapter 1: Re Do The Reversal System

1. The reversal animation in MKDA was very unpolished. When the person successfully connected with a reversal the character would lock onto the opponent, but the hand didn’t really have contact with the body part, making it looked rushed and silly. When the reversal connects the character should automatically go into the animation of that particular character reversal.

2. There should no longer be custom reversal follow ups Reversals should never allow the player to follow up with whatever they please. If Hsu Hao Reverses you say bye bye to 40% of your health. When the character reverses you they should automatically do an arm crunch or an over the shoulder slam or something like that. This is how it is in every fighter. Of course some characters should have better reversal than others.

3.High/Mid and Low Reversal really need to have different commands. If Im facing a reversal abuse happy opponent I have no options attack wise since everything gets reversed the same manner. I don’t have a problem with low attacks being reversible, but they should be a different command than the mid/high reversal. It should also be a different result. I think low reversals as a whole should do a lot less damage.

4. Chickening is something I find to be very cool. Chickening is when you input a reversal difficult command once a reversal takes place that makes your character quickly escape the reversal. The command should be difficult and should only work during a certain amount of frames.

5. The reversal command should be a lot harder than one button. Come on midway. This isn’t street fighter 1. For example..if I remember correctly in Tekken 4 the reversal is b+2+4 for highs and mids and I don’t think T4 has low reversals.

6. This is common sense, but make sure every character’s reversal is different. Don’t wanna make the game look scrubby and rushed.

7. Reversals should be a risk. In MKDA the character was at like –7 from a reversal being screwed up. It should be ATLEAST –20 or so.

Chapter 2: Re Do The Throw System

1. Firstly throws should be unblockable. The whole point of throws is to stop defense. Making throws blockable makes throws pointless..simple as that.

2. Throw’s should hit high. It’s like this in all fighting games. Making throws unduckable makes throws unfair.

3. Each character should have atleast 3 throws with different escapes. 1 should be a 2 escape, 1 should be a 1+2 escape and 1 should be a 1 escape. When the character does the throw, the opponent should have a couple frames to escape the throw. The guess wrong and they eat the throw. That’s how it works in pretty much all fighters.

4. Throws should take a lot more skill to do. Simple f+sm commands wont attract any new fans. Only hardcore gamers like us accustomed to the simple way of MK. In MK6 should have one simple throw that’s the same command for every character. In tekken 4 this is f+2+4 and they all had 2 escapes. The other kind of throw MK6 should have is a command throw that does more damage than the normal ones, has a harder command and has a 1 or 1+2 escape. Some characters should have more command throws than others. For example, a grappler like Kano or Jax would have five or six command throws while characters who depends less on throws like scorpion or sub-zero would have just one or two command throws.

5. Weapon Throws should be included in this game. Each character should have one, and they all do over at least 30 damage. They should have difficult commands and look very flashy. Everyone’s weapon throw should have a different escape, forcing players who want to become good to find out the escape for all of them. Naturally characters who depend more on their weapons than others like Quan Chi and Drahmin should have the best weapon throws.

6. Right Side, Left Side and Back Side throws need to be put into MK6. They should do good damage and have cool animations. Both side throws should have a 2 escape while the back throw should be unescapeable, for hell, if someone manages to get behind you frankly you deserve to take a good 50 damage anyway.

7. Crouch throws should be exclusive to big time grapplers like Jax and Kano. Crouch throws are for when the opponent ducks. These throws are normally some sort of power bomb or piledriver or something like that. They should do solid damage but be very escapeable.

8. Ground throws should punish those who stay on the ground for too long. Again, only big time grapplers should have them and they should be easily tech rollable and do average damage.

9. I think every character in MKDA should have the ability to utilize the different arena structures and perform a throw. Whether be against the cactus on Edenia Dessert or on the icicles of The Lin Kuei Temple. Each throw for each character should look the same so there are no arenas advantages.

Chapter 3 and 4 coming soon!

I'd have to agree with Digital Ninja. Midway needs to have high class tournaments for the next Mortal Kombat game. Not only online, but off. DN has been saying how we should sponser such a tournament, and we would work with Midway in any way, shape, or form to make this happen.

1.) A games life does not depend soley on tournies. Tournies are not the saviour, simply another outlet of the community. However, it is the players as a whole that makes the game, not some 50-70 man tourney. Even though tournies are much, much welcomed. And I'd personally wet myself if Midway held a national.

2.) Verse, your ideas are good...but they're not yours. If I want to play Tekken, I'll go play Tekken.

I personally think that MK6 needs it's own "mark" if they want to appeal to the hardcore. Something fresh. Maybe directional-input only throw escpaes which can then be buffered into specials.

Yah, the reversal animation...uh, yah...just...yah. Personally, im not a huge fan of the "attacking reversal - whatever". When I see poeople reverse, in any game, I simply chuckle to myself. Why...why slow down the game with pointless "cool" animations that loose their luster after a few attempts? Yes, i think they should be in the game. No, they should not dominate.

Quality movement should always take precident - sp. IMO, as always - sniff, i stand alone . Peace and love ya'll.
BTW: Verse, dude, I pray that you are turning these...essays, you write in for a grade. Say, a theory class or something. I maen, 50 chapters?! 0_0 LOL!!