I don't want 'chess kombat'. I want Mortal Kombat, I want a fighting game, seeing as how this game is categorized as such. If they released a MK: Chess game, then i'd be more than happy to buy it, and play it, but If i'm forking out cash for a fighting game, i'd damn well better end up with a fighting game. The Chess Kombat plea is a copout so that you don't have to admit that the fighting side of the game (ie: the reason the game was made), is unplayable online, because the game is simply horrid.



I shouldn't have to, and that pretty much defeats the purpose of online play. What you're basically saying now is "Mortal Kombat is head and shoulders above all other fighting games because it can be played online... But you have to be a member at mortalkombatonline.com and search around for some buddies to play a decent game".
There was nothing in the MKD instruction manual that said that.

Besides, even though i'm fed up with infinites, they're there for a reason - to be used.



They aren't taking advantage of anything more than you're taking advantage of throws. Infinites are present, and everybody else is using them, so you should too. The real issue here, is that the engine shouldn't even be that broken to begin with. Why try and justify it and make up rules so that you don't have to face up to it by blaming the player for Midways huge screwups? That doesn't even make sense. The reason people use infinites is not because they're 'wussies' - they're just playing the game they've been given to play, the real reason is because Midway doesn't know what the fuck they're doing.



There shouldn't need to be a solution, because there shouldn't be a problem. Period. Why talk about how to 'fix' the probelm within your own circle of buddies, when you could be talking about how to permanently solve the problem for everybody who plays the next game? All you have to do is admit to yourself that something is seriously wrong, and then find out why. There are many threads in which people will tell you why, if you care to find them, rather than turning a blind eye and pretending it isn't there.

Honestly, I hope I can one day sell a completely faulty product, and have the consumer justify it's greatness to themselves dispite glaring flaws in functionality, and then give me awards for it. It's like a marketers dream come true.



Kombat is the entire game!
It's called Mortal KOMBAT! Not Mortal Chess, or Mortal Puzzle, or Mortal Konquest, Mortal Kombat! It's the entire reason the game exists.
Besides, even in the chess mode you still have to fight, so really the only thing that doesn't include 'kombat' is the puzzle mode - and i'll be damned if i'm going to sit here after wasting 80 bucks on something I was told by Midway was a 'fighting game', and play some ripoff of a Street Fighter puzzle game from years ago that I already own, then ignore the complete failure and say "Thanks Midway, that was a great fighting game! Here, have some more 2 bit awards!"



"Fair" doesn't exist the way you think it does in fighting games - or to be more accurate, it does, but you'd rather look away.

What's 'fair' in a board game? Doing whatever you are allowed to do to win, so long as it's within the rules, yes? As long as you're are freely allowed to do it, and it doesn't break the rules, then it's fair.
Fighting games work in exactly the same way, and the people who decide the rules are the people who design the game, dictating what is actually possible to do in game, as rules.

Here are the basic rules for every fighting game:

#1. Win.

That's it.

There is no rule that states that you may not use infinite combos - if there was, then that rule would be in place and working so that it would not be possible to do infinite combos. This is also the case for cheesy throws and everything else. If it's in the game, then it's not against the rules, because if it were against the rules, it wouldn't be in the game. Simple.

So now that it's clear that 'exploiting the flaws' (ie: playing the game the way it was designed) is fair, and both players can use these tools if they wish, is it still fun? No. You have to invent your own make believe rules for it to be fun, which means you completely turn away from what the game really is. Look at it. You're insulting your own intelligence by neglecting these flaws in the game. Saying "I know it's there, but i'll make up these fake rules and pretend I don't".

Maybe you do this to try and get the most out of your game, I dunno, but in doing so, you hurt every future MK game for everybody else by not saying "Okay, this is wrong, it needs improvement", and letting each game thereafter suffer the same broken, glitchy fate.

Holy fucking hell. I can't believe this shit. I'm a hair away from never playing a MK game ever again, then freely distributed pirated MK games to everybody I come in contact with.



No.
No more of this bullshit.
No opinions, only facts.

If you think this game is good, then you are wrong. There's no two ways about it. You are not wrong based on my conflicting opinion, you are wrong based on cold, hard, undeniable facts. You're 'opinion' does not cancel out fact, and holds no bearing here at all.

If you want to talk about 'half assed', then lets talk about you not knowing what the fuck you're talking about. You have no clue here, yet you continue to try and persuade people this is a great game based on your opinion, thinking that it cancels out the facts that stare you in the face and scream otherwise. If you want to convince us this game is great, then go ahead - but use ONLY facts, and facts ONLY - none of this "I don't know what the hell i'm talking about so i'll just state my opinion over and over because opinions can't be wrong" shit, because you're opinions ARE wrong.



What the hell?

Get a clue, or fuck off, because i'm really getting tired of explaining the same shit to the same ignorant people over and over.
No more bullshit.

Free speech shouldn't be abused, judgement should be left to those who have the knowledge to do so.

"Here are the basic rules for every fighting game :#1. Win. That's it."

Wrong. This game wasn't meant to direct that audience, and unfortantely it did and thus they take all of the flavour out of the game and decompose it. Usually they buy it out of the amout of nostalgia in the game. Is the word fun to much to ask?

"It's called Mortal KOMBAT! Not Mortal Chess, or Mortal Puzzle, or Mortal Konquest, Mortal Kombat! It's the entire reason the game exists.

Besides, even in the chess mode you still have to fight, so really the only thing that doesn't include 'kombat' is the puzzle mode - and i'll be damned if i'm going to sit here after wasting 80 bucks on something I was told by Midway was a 'fighting game', and play some ripoff of a Street Fighter puzzle game from years ago that I already own, then ignore the complete failure and say "Thanks Midway, that was a great fighting game! Here, have some more 2 bit awards!"

Saying that the ENTIRE GAME exists on Kombat mode is pure and stupid. What did Boon put those two modes their for to make you look at those pretty words? Wait, did their programmers started a riot out because no one plays these modes and they completely wasted their time?

"What's 'fair' in a board game? Doing whatever you are allowed to do to win, so long as it's within the rules, yes? As long as you're are freely allowed to do it, and it doesn't break the rules, then it's fair.
Fighting games work in exactly the same way, and the people who decide the rules are the people who design the game, dictating what is actually possible to do in game, as rules."

It's not that they intenonally put glitches here and there so you can exploit them for your own benefit. So your encouraging people to take advantage of stuff they didn't mean to put in there in the first place? Yes thats completely fair alright.

"Maybe you do this to try and get the most out of your game, I dunno, but in doing so, you hurt every future MK game for everybody else by not saying "Okay, this is wrong, it needs improvement", and letting each game thereafter suffer the same broken, glitchy fate."

Did I say i don't want the future games to be improved? No, I just want to make the current game and try to make it more fun for others to enjoy. This game won't be improved on but MK7 will. I'm betting on it. Email midway tell them to do this and that and maybe you might get somewhere. If they answer or have the time. Expand your knowledge my friend.

""Fair" doesn't exist the way you think it does in fighting games - or to be more accurate, it does, but you'd rather look away."

Being "Fair" makes you a good player. "Fair" makes it fun for others "Fair" makes it fun for everyone.


"There shouldn't need to be a solution, because there shouldn't be a problem. Period. Why talk about how to 'fix' the probelm within your own circle of buddies, when you could be talking about how to permanently solve the problem for everybody who plays the next game? All you have to do is admit to yourself that something is seriously wrong, and then find out why. There are many threads in which people will tell you why, if you care to find them, rather than turning a blind eye and pretending it isn't there."

Saying the problem is there only makes the wound deeper, making the current game fun for everyone around you and in your list heals the wound. The more friends you have on your list, even better. The current game we have on our hands, midway won't fix our game we have now. But taking alot of effort to convince them whats wrong and whats not makes all the difference to the people that will buy the next game.

"I don't want 'chess kombat'. I want Moral Kombat, I want a fighting game, seeing as how this game is categorized as such. If they released a MK: Chess game, then i'd be more than happy to buy it, and play it, but If i'm forking out cash for a fighting game, i'd damn well better end up with a fighting game. The Chess Kombat plea is a copout so that you don't have to admit that the fighting side of the game (ie: the reason the game was made), is unplayable online, because the game is simply horrid."

Tekken is also not online per say, due to frames. Midway was generous enough to even put Deception online in the first place. Look at the chess and puzzle lists. People play them, they do not pretend the game doesn't have those modes. Midway obviously put them there for a reason, if there were more people like you then why even bother?

OK now, although I actually agree with the people who say that MK needs a new engine and that Tekken is much better than MK gameplay-wise...didn't we already have this discussion, like, a fuck-zillion times before?

You know what, you're WRONG, you are WRONG, you are WRONG, you're the most annoying person I have ever had the displeasure of reading and you're WRONG. Paint it any way you like, come back with some wise cracking retort, whatever you want, but I'm sorry you have absolutely no idea what is fact and what is opinion.

This is NOT about defending Deception so i'll make that clear. However if somebody likes the game and think its good, then that is an opinion yes, but nobody has the right to say they are wrong, and there IS two ways about it! Let me tell you what a fact is. A fact is set like stone, it is fact, it is solid, conclusive, evidentory, absolute. There is now way around a fact. True.

There are several facts in life. The sun will rise tommorow, FACT. Everyone on the world will die one day, ABSOLUTE FACT. Deception has gameplay issues, that is cold hard FACT, however what is NOT FACT under any circumstance is that it is a bad game or something is just bad, its not set in stone. Why? Because that is based solely on thousands of opinions, conclusions, decisions, differing tastes, preferences combined together to form an opinion. And ultimately, the buyers of a game decide whether it is bad or not, the gameplay issues are just factors in their decisions you just cannot argue that..

It is NOT FACT that coffee is bad, some people may dislike the taste but it is not a fact just because some people think it is fact and they hate it, that is ludicris, absolutely ludicris. Coffee in some peoples eyes is good, and that is opinion which i'm sorry to reveal to you is a FACT of life, so deal with it, not everyone is going to agree with you. I think many things are good in life. I think Angel the series is good, it may not have the best actors, but it is good because I believe it to be and thats all that matter, no FACTS are going to change my mind.

You think your the person who sets things in stone! But you need to get off your high horse and start accepting that opinions are real, they may not agree with you, but to write what you did is just annoying and arrogant. Your not the decider of anyone. Like I said, those flaws in the gameplay are only factors, at the end of the day, you decide whats good on your own.

Sorry but I can't stand it when people are told they are wrong just because someone says so. Drives my blood cold!

I think you should chill a little. There's no reason to get all mad over a simple discussion on the Internet.

These two posts...



No. I'm not going to chill at all.

I'm not mad either, just extremely frustrated that after months of reasoning and explaining, people still choose not to understand, and what's worse is think they're doing everybody a favour.



I didn't say anything about liking the game.



I clearly said that it's a fact that the game is bad. I didn't say people who liked the game were wrong, just that the game is bad, and anybody who says otherwise is wrong. People are quite entitled to like it, and that's fine, that's an opinion. I liked MK more than I like MKII. People are allowed to like and dislike whatever they please, but it's still a fact that MKD is bad, because of the lack of thought put into testing and designing it.

What i'm talking about is the lack of logical frame advantage, move startup, poor animation, glitches, infintes, etc, and how this makes the game bad - because it does. It's like a car with three wheels and a rudder instead of a stearing wheel - this is a bad car. People are still free to like the car, but the car is bad.

Would you rather have a bad car with bad parts or no car at all?

Then if they don't wanna' understand then too bad for 'em. If you see they don't get it, don't waste your time trying to explain something they can't undertand. That way you don't get frustrated and stuff. Just a suggestion.

No car at all because I'm less likely to die that way.

What people need to understand is that they paid money for this thing. If you bought a used car that turned out to be a lemon you're not going to be happy. If MK:Deception was a free gift from Midway then nobody would be complaining. But the fact is, this is a game we all paid for and that money went into the bank accounts of everyone on the development team. That's why it's not ok. Has anyone here ever bought something off of an infomercial? You know how often those things don't work like they're shown to on television? Does that mean after you buy it you shouldn't be pissed off? Deception just wasn't a professional product worth paying for and so it is not a bad thing to try to spread that information to ensure MK7 won't end up the same way.

Yes I know, you clearly said that it's a fact the game is bad. Wrong!!! Its a fact that your OPINION says the game is bad, but thats about it. Other people will think its good, they may think it needs some work, maybe a lot of work, but they will think its a good game nonetheless because they enjoyed it. There are others who will think its a bad game because they couldn't enjoy it. All opinions. Those things you mentioned, glitches, infinites, frame advantage, they don't directly make the game bad at all, they are nothing more than a hinderence and a obstacle that mar how good it could have been. Some people may be able to overlook them, others not so much. I think the main factor in a persons decision is how much enjoyment they get out of it, but the flaws may have a bearing as well, but in the end its a persons decision to whether the good points outweigh the bad or vice versa. Opinion is not a fact, but you are clearly saying your opinion is a fact.

What evidence do you have when you state theres a 'lack of thought put into testing and designing it', unless you were there supervising them 24/7, theres no way you can tell thats a fact, for all you know they could have thought and tested for hours and your just making mountains out of molehills (up for debate). I am on your side, I can see the faults, the flaws, all the bad things, but main thing for me is I enjoyed it (for a while) and I think overall its a good game despite the flaws, could be better, but good all the same. And yes I want them to improve it. But I just don't like being told it is bad because its fact. Thats WRONG!

And by the way, if a car has only three wheels, it is a FACT the car is bad well, because it just doesn't serve its purpose, it is useless, may as well not exist. A car with three wheels cannot move. Deception still serves its purpose, giving enjoyment, its just it has flaws. What doesn't?

Too many people aren't bothered about the parts of the car (gameplay) they're too interested in the paint job (fatilties etc.)

What use is a car that's flashy but doesn't run properly. (MK: Deception)

I'd rather have the car thats runs like a dream (Tekken)

and if someone doesn't know what these car parts are and how they work (frames, OKI, move animation etc.) then you can't really judge the car, but people are trying to anyway, despite knowing nothing about the car's insides.

Well, I don't know. There's this very old Atari game called Impossible Mission. What's ironic about that is the game is really impossible. There's a point where a glitch prevents the player from continuing. If I like the game up to that point does that not make it a bad game? It serves it's purpose. I can turn it on and play it. But whether it actually functions the way it should is where it falters. The Ford Pinto back in the 70s used to actually explode if hit from behind. There have been numerous court cases regarding that. Ford shaped up but the legacy the Pinto left is one of pure garbage. It had four wheels, you could steer it, everything functioned but the gas tank was volatile. That was the only problem. Despite there being only one problem it's a pretty big one. So whether you like the car or not, it was still a death trap (no pun intended).

MK is a fighting game where a blocked jab can cause you to lose the match. That's kind of the same thing on a much less severe scale. I shouldn't be losing because my jab (the weakest move a character has) was blocked. There are generally accepted levels of quality that need to be addressed when determining whether a product is good or bad. A pool that constantly leaks is still usable with some glue and tape but that doesn't mean it's a good pool.

Fighting games are about winning. If you don't think this is the case, then you are wrong, and should not be playing fighting games, or at the very least, not be trying to convince people that the reason they're playing the game for, is wrong. Don't believe me that fighting games are about winning? Watch a boxing match and ask the guy who lost if he had 'fun', then ask the guy who won if he had 'fun'.

What does the game say when you accomplish what you're trying to do?
"You win".
Not "You played", or "You had fun" or "You looked at the coolness of those swords - FATALITY".
Thus, it can be deduced that fighting games are about winning, just like racing games are about coming first.

Winning is fun - that's the point in playing, and that's where the fun comes in. Competition.
Is losing fun? Well, yes it can be (just like losing in a racing game can be fun if you're spending your time seeing how far you can slide, or how many cars you can smash up by driving the wrong way), but winning is more fun, and is the ultimate goal (again, like racing games, where racing and coming first is the ultimate goal, and more fun than driving backwards down the track, even though that can be fun).

There is no 'audience' either - only people who know what they're doing, and people who don't. This 'casual gamer' bullshit is something made up by people to justify the MK series turning to shit. "Oh well, MK isn't like any other game, it doesn't have to be functional because it appeals to the 'casual gamer', and every other fighting game is obviously for 'hardcore gamers' because they require thought, and can't be played by a 5 year old ".

It's just a copout to avoid having to admit that the game sells soley on blood.



Why do you think they're called "mini-games"? Are they called "mini-games" because they're the main game? No.
Is 'Kombat' called a "mini-game"? No.
Why is 'Kombat' not called a "mini-game"?
Because it isn't.
It is, and always has been the basis of the game. The main focus.

If the fighting itself is not the main focus of the game, then it should not be called a fighting game, and should be stripped of all it's awards, and marketed in the 'strategy' genre.



Good. That's the point. The wound can only be so deep, and people need to see exactly how deep it is, so that things can be fixed next time. If we just make temporary fixes in our own minds, and don't mention how bad it is, we're only cheating ourselves out of knowing who's really better at the game. It's like a boxing match where both guys are pulling their punches. What's the point? And what's going to happen when you play somebody online who doesn't follow your imaginary rules? You'll get destroyed, then say "Oh well, he cheated because he didn't follow the rules I made up in my mind, that loss didn't count, so obviously, dispite the fact that I lost, I must somehow be better", like everybody else.



Exactly? Why bother? Why waste time trying to sell a fighting game filled with that other bullshit that isn't relevant to a fighting game, when the actual fighting aspect is being ignored, and is the main point of the game (see again: FIGHTING game - not strategy game)?

If there were more people like me, you wouldn't even need chess and puzzle mode, because the game would be so much better that you wouldn't care about them, but they'd still be there anyway, which would make the game even better.

So your saying you would ride in a car that is in the shape of a big hairy Gorilla wearing bright red lipstick and a tiara so long as it ran like a dream? Yeah right.

Seriously, I know what your saying, graphics aren't everything, there are other factors. I think as long as the car gets the job done then its a fine car. Who cares whats inside, as long as it gets you from A to B. And the car you mention does run properly, it just has a few kinks is all. Like maybe a few stalls along the way and a broken headlight, no power assisted stearing. But guess what, that bright shiny new model is just around the corner.

Yes but there are reasonable levels of getting from point A to point B. The Ford Pinto could get from A to B with no problems. You just may die if you get rearended. That's not cool. In terms of fighting games, MK does not "go from A to B" but instead stops halfway. The problems go beyond a reasonable level because it doesn't accomplish what a fighting game should. A fighting game, at it's heart, should allow two players to determine who is better by playing a match. MK does not do this. It becomes a guessing game because of the 50/50s. You may as well flip a coin with whoever you were going to play against.

You have good points but those products you mentioned shouldn't have been released at all. They run well up until a point and then it renders itself useless. There is a difference. While Deception does have flaws and bad points, it is never useless, they are never major enough to prevent it from doing its job, it keeps going and works the way it should.

The Ford Pinto is plain dangerous, its a good car in theory, but obviously the fact it can explode is more than just a flaw, its a major problem and I'm probably not wrong in saying that this particular model is probably nowhere in existence anymore. Will Deception ever disapear? Not as a result from its flaws I wouldn't think. It works and doesn't just stop dead. The game that you say is impossible to finish. Again good game in theory but since it can't be finished it is a useless product. But it is good upto the point which disables it.

People have different standards when determining if something is good or bad. Some people may not be so fussy, others may have very high level of standards expected. That pool table might be good enough for some, it does its job, others may be more fussy and demand a new one. I just think its down to preference.

Editing my quotes and ignoring my other statements, doesn't really count as a edligable reply. In fact you ignored my other statements about the future MK. Shows how ignorant you are.

Because it isn't my opinion. It is quite literally, a fact. I know i'm going circles here, but that's the way it is.

What i'm talking about, is the way the game plays. What would the game be like if you broke it down to wireframe models fighting on a blank background - no blood, no extra modes, no fatalities, just the raw gameplay mechanics of the fighting game itself? There is no denying that it is bad. It does not acheive what fighting games should, which as TTT said, is to determine a winner based on some degree of skill. The core engine of MKD fails to do this, and this is why the game is bad.



The fact that those things are in the game alone is a huge amount of proof. What kind of idiot puts a move like the tombstone drop in a fighting game? This shows that either a: It was added to intentionally break the game, and Ed Boon is a jackass who intentionally sold us a shitty product or b: it was an oversight. Neither of which should have happened.

Here's some of the rest of my evidence: No move properties, constant 50/50 games, numerous infinite combos and combos caused by glitches, moves that break the game, universal tracking, 90%+ damage combos (not infinites), and huge clipping glitches (characters walking around outside of the feild of play). These are based on facts.

Now, you show me what evidence you have, based on fact, that this game had a considerable amount of thought and testing put into it to prevent these things from being present, as it should have.

I didn't edit anything. I simply removed half of a sentance, which had no effect on the first half of what you said anyway. It's not like I was making things up, rearranging your sentence or putting words in your mouth.

Also, I didn't ignore your other statements. I read them, I just didn't feel they warranted a comment.

I also see you are no longer arguing, which is great. It means you've come to a place where you can now look at what was drastically wrong, and ask Midway to fix these issues next time around. HDTran's stickied thread should help you out.

Actually I didn't say I had any evidence nor facts whatsoever, I was just asking you what evidence you had since your the one who made accusations directed at the producers of the game. And by the way I agree with you, about the tombstone drop, thats is one of the main offenders for me. The 50/50's, infinites, combo problems, universal tracking etc. I think they were probably tested, went unnoticed, its just I think the main oversight was online, they underestimated the power of online mode. Maybe they thought people playing online would play like the computer does. Ok you have convinced me, but I still think you don't know what went on as you weren't there. For all anybody knows, some malicious co-worker could have intentionally planted the flaws back in the day before its release... or maybe not.

Fair call.
All that ultimately matters is making MK7 great.

I think that somnambulist is only debating the application of the word "bad" in terms of quality as opposed to personal opinion. Where the line is drawn for all practical purposes can, to a reasonable standard, be altered a bit. Whatever, it's not important so long as we all see what needs to be done to make MK7 much better than Deception.

I'm starting to see things differently, however. At first, I thought the consumers were the death of MK with the "MK is teh L337" and all that because it gives Boon and Co. big heads. Now I'm starting to think that this cycle can't be broken so long as awards and scores of 9.0 are given out by the press. Boon and Co. do a wonderful job just barely making MK look good on the surface. It took maybe ten people from these boards (that's a generous estimation) to break the game in about two weeks. I remember as clear as day when four or five infinites were found two weeks after launch. This says two things. First, it says that a handful of players did in a few weeks what the paid Quality Assurance crew at Midway had two years to do. That alone is sad and speaks volumes about what things are like over there. It also says something else. Remember that the press usually gets review copies before the sceduled retail launch. This means that there is nothing known about the game, such as infinites, that they can walk in knowing to check for. Since these reviewers are also very busy with other games they can't focus much effort on breaking a fighting game. So they judge it based on what they see after playing a few rounds. The press is a very proud bunch, however. So after all the crap is found they are unwilling to admit that their first review is wrong and rarely like to challenge other reviewers by giving a vastly different score. This is what gives Boon and Co. confidence and messes us all up.

I've actually been thinking that quite a bit too. No matter how many fans pipe up and riot, Boon may not even care, and could very well just dismiss us all thinking we don't know what we're talking about, and magazine editors do because it's their job or something.

I'm starting to think he isn't going to care so long as he does whatever he wants (makes it look pretty on the surface), and it gets good reviews in magazines (based on how it looks on the surface, again).

Can't give up just yet though. Only time will tell if he'll listen, and if the next game is still this bad, i'll definitely be calling MK quits for good.