The notion that only Kilik and Mitsu can beat X is untrue. Asside from the fact that other characters ARE good against her (which I already mentioned, bleh), nobody actually "beats" anybody in SC2.

This is because SC2 is about 80-90% player based. Take Asta vs X. Technically, X should own Asta for free. But if he gets one GI and guess right, he's won the round. There's no real solid basis for comparing characters in SC2, because there's so much guessing and the system is pretty homogenous defensively.

Zig21 Wrote: There's no real solid basis for comparing characters in SC2, because there's so much guessing and the system is pretty homogenous defensively.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know as much when it comes to the technicalities of Soul Calibur II and I always wondered how the system would work, or fail for that matter, if the GI system was based on the played character or even the opponent's character. Such as Astaroth's GIs causing more frame advantage as opposed to, say, Talim's. I suppose it could potentially break the game since some characters have a stronger post-GI game than others, especially Astaroth, but where is the line drawn? Does diversity always outweigh the need for balance and how much of a skew in the balance department is considered acceptable if the core system is solid?

I stick to my belief that balance is less important than many people say since a good game will get play no matter what. But it's part of the reason why I critique MK the way I do. I don't care how balanced MK:D could be. If it's balanced because of a lack of diversity, then it doesn't mean anything. I'd rather MK be a strong fighter and end up with Jins running around rather than perfectly balanced but with all the styles playing the same. It's possible for both to be done. Virtua Fighter 4 is pretty balanced and diverse at the same time. But why does that seem like the exception to the rule?

We should be discussing MKD here, but whatever. :P

This is very good discussion. Maybe by discussing things like this, Boon and co. will read and learn. :/

By the way, I started experimenting around with X and I did indeed find some things I never got with her earlier times I used her. Good stuff.
I'll practice with her a bit more, and try and formulate some valid and fairly equal test against Yoshimitsu and Cervantes. I'll bring my results then.

starwinderbeta Wrote: We should be discussing MKD here, but whatever. :P This is very good discussion. Maybe by discussing things like this, Boon and co. will read and learn. :/

Exactly. Whenever I think of good Soul Calibur, VF, or Tekken discussion I think of talk about what beats what, this does that, he can do this, etc. But when I think of good MK discussion I think of talk about what should beat what, this should do that, he should do this, etc.

Alright man, have i missed somthing here? Isnt MK 6 going to be online? I would figure that this option would be one of the single most exciting things that could happen to MK and everyone is bitching about gameplay. I thought the gameplay was fine in MKDA, just didnt have anyone to play with so it sits on a shelf to this day collecting dust. To think i'll accually get a chance to own your asses online makes me want to defocate myself with happiness.

That's good for you.

LaTeRaLuS Wrote: Alright man, have i missed somthing here? Isnt MK 6 going to be online? I would figure that this option would be one of the single most exciting things that could happen to MK and everyone is bitching about gameplay. I thought the gameplay was fine in MKDA, just didnt have anyone to play with so it sits on a shelf to this day collecting dust. To think i'll accually get a chance to own your asses online makes me want to defocate myself with happiness.

K, guess you could careless about online MK....whatever floats your boat man.

Zig21 Wrote:
Nightmare is one of the most fundamentally solid characters in the game, and is upper mid for sure. Granted, nobody agrees on SC2 tiers much these days, but some consider Nighty to be top 5, and they make a damn good case for it.

I'd like you to PM me links of these cases, plz.

Oh yeah, Sophie is bottom 2 my ass. She's now one of the most brain-dead easy characters in the game.

Indeed.

This is true, but do you really know why?:P

I know, but not thouroughly. One Ivy's ideal range is penetrated through, she's pretty much deadmeat. Xianghua moves too fast for Ivy at close range, and Ivy takes more time, frame-wise, than X to initiate most attacks, making for a pretty lousy defensive game.

Being linear applies to so many characters that it really doesn't matter. Only a handful of characters actually have a true anti-step move, and Raph's linearity isn't an issue if you turtle. Defensive Raph is damn good.

I agree that defense Raphael is good, but I haven't seen many matches in which he's played outside of 90% verticals. As you said, most characters have so much linearity, it doesn't matter. But Raphael and Sophitia seem to be a bit too linear (The latter being more). They get stepped a lot more than other characters, I believe.

This has never been proven. In fact, X has proven to be one of Cervy's harder matchups, because step doesn't work against her.

Still experimenting with this.

Cervy in general is overrated as well. In theory, he's great 'cause you just make people whiff and own them. But once people stop letting you step them for free, he becomes a lot harder to win with than people though.

I have yet to see a lot of this playstyle in action. A lot of players seem to fall for several forms of free steps and whiffed GI's forced upon by some of Cerv's basic mixup games.

Cervy's basic 50/50's aren't that great. He arguably has the worst throws in the game, and lacks a fast low that knocks down or does big damage. His lows are good, just not for serious mixups. I still think Cervy's buff, but every top EC and WC player I've met and played thinks he's just upper mid. Since FetZ and JOP stopped playing, we've yet to see a style with Cervy that's actually effective enough to warrant ranking him in the top 5.

The throws and low attack statements are pretty accurate, but I don't believe a good Cerv player would rely on the much. Cerv is mostly about mixups, but lack of an advantageous low attack cripples his mixup game a bit. I believe that is also a pretty good way to play with YunSung, seeing as most of his moves are crap.

This assumption has also proven to be wrong. X is a VERY tough matchup for Yoshi, largely because it's hard for him to get in on her. Even when he gets in, her AA is difficult for him to deal with, and this is on HIT. Even if you hit X and go for a mixup, a lot of options will lose to AA, due to either speed issues or lack of reliable tech crouch frames. Yoshi can still mix things up, but it puts him in a potentially risky situation where both players have to guess, thus making what should have been an advantageous situation for Yoshi almost neutral instead.

Experimenting with this too. Yoshi has a faster A than X, I believe. Yoshi's mixup games take a bit of time to get to the effective parts (Example: A, 2A, WS K, A,K[B]). Yoshi has the fast A strikes, but after 2A, the wait to initiate WS K, and finishing the combo is what kills him. After seeing X's AA, I realized that Yoshi does get crippled by that during his mixup games. Currently, I'm trying to figure out ways past X's AA and 3K. But from a technical standpoint, it seems that Yoshi would be the better character. Throw in the human element, and the technical views become null.

Good stuff...

Anyways, the truth is that almost every character is as big a whore as X, if not more so in some cases. It's just that she was the first, and has consistently proven to be one of, if not the, best tournament characters in the game. To have a solid foundation against X, you want safety, so more characters are good against her than you've mentioned.

A ranged game is an excellent way to fight X, like I stated in an earlier post. Staying away from a character's ideal range is definitely the best defense, in my opinion. Turtling comes at a close second, then maybe a few mind games here and there to mess up a player's offensive mindset. I agree that safety is an ideal way to play against X. I do realize that a lot of characters cant play a ranged game like Nightmare, Astaroth, or Ivy, and have no choice but to close in. Their attacks usually outspeed X's, though, leading to punished attacks on X's part. I have no more comments on those characters, as I haven't used them a lot before.

I'd say the best anti-X characters are probably Kilik, Mitsu, Cass, Sophie, Talim, and probably Nightmare. Kilik outspaces her and is disgustingly safe as well. Mitsu can effectively punish her 3A and 3B and 2K lets him threaten strong 50/50's where other characters can't. Cass and Sophie can match her poking and punish 3A very well (Sophie is the best low punisher in the game, hands down). Talim can punish 3A well, has great horizontals, and her basic mixups are even safer than X's. I'm not sure if Nightmare has a real advantage over her, but he's so stupid and safe that he can play the same game as her.

Need to experiment this. I agree with the Mitsu statement, though. Not so sure about Sophitia, though. She's one of my mains, but I've been neglecting her to perfect my Nightmare's range game and Yoshi's mixups. I'll experiment with her and see what I can find. She does punish low extremely well, though, as you stated.

Good strategy conversations. If only we could have Mortal Kombat discussions such as these. If only the idiots who think MKDA's system was fine and can own everybody in online MK could open their eyes and see. Meh...

MKD is looking too much like MKDA for my liking.

Playing MKD online will probably be shit if some of the issues we are discussing aren't addressed. If anything, I care more than you. Please, go back and play MKDA and marvel at it's lacking, yet potentialistic, (Is that a word? :P) fighting engine.

LaTeRaLuS Wrote: K, guess you could careless about online MK....whatever floats your boat man.

I'd like you to PM me links of these cases, plz.

Just look at the success of DTN and tieTYT. Nightmare has also done well in Chicago (before they quit), Texas/Tulsa, and New Jersey. Nighty does very well in tournaments, and his strengths are very easy to grasp and utilize.

I know, but not thouroughly. One Ivy's ideal range is penetrated through, she's pretty much deadmeat. Xianghua moves too fast for Ivy at close range, and Ivy takes more time, frame-wise, than X to initiate most attacks, making for a pretty lousy defensive game.

Eh, this statement is overly broad and not entirely true. Ivy has one of, if not the, best pokes in the game: her 2A. It goes under highs, so X can't really abuse AA against Ivy. However, there are some key problems Ivy has in this matchup.

1) Sidestep doesn't do you any good X.

2) Ivy can't punish lows to any great extent, making her vulnerable to 3A abuse.

3) X's 9K gives Ivy problems, because it tends to sidestep her air throw, making it a great jumping attack in this fight.

4) Ivy's mid-range game doesn't mean much because X is one of the best mid-range characters in the game.

5) Ivy's main low, K2, gives frame advantage on hit. In theory, 2A should be uninterruptable, as the only move fast enough to beat it would be X's AA. But the break/clash system ignores tech crouch frames. If Ivy hits with K2 and does 2A afterwards, X can do AA and clash instead of getting hit.

agree that defense Raphael is good, but I haven't seen many matches in which he's played outside of 90% verticals. As you said, most characters have so much linearity, it doesn't matter. But Raphael and Sophitia seem to be a bit too linear (The latter being more). They get stepped a lot more than other characters, I believe.

You need to abandon the notion that Sophie is linear, 'cause she's not. In fact, everything that people thought was wrong with Sophie has never been proven in actual tourney play. I first realized this at Evo2K3, when I got to see and play Mick's Sophie for the first time.

Anyways, Raph's linearity is easily solved by turtling, which also happens to be how almost everybody else deals with sidestep nowadays. Boring, but effective.

I have yet to see a lot of this playstyle in action. A lot of players seem to fall for several forms of free steps and whiffed GI's forced upon by some of Cerv's basic mixup games.

Please give me one good reason to attempt to GI or risk getting stepped by Cervy in a situation where it would be extremely risky to do so.

Like I said, Cervy is great in theory, but it's just that: theory.

The throws and low attack statements are pretty accurate, but I don't believe a good Cerv player would rely on the much.

Then what are they going to rely upon? Cervy's punishment is all whiffed-based, but you can't just say he's going to make you whiff eventually, because people don't fall for that anymore. If I just turtle up, Cervy has a much harder time winning than he does on paper. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I'm just pointing out how most people have no idea what playing Cervy is really like in high level matches.

Cerv is mostly about mixups, but lack of an advantageous low attack cripples his mixup game a bit.

This makes no sense. Good mixups=good 50/50's, and he's very much lacking in that regard. Without a strong low or throws, how can he be "mostly about mixups"?

Experimenting with this too. Yoshi has a faster A than X, I believe. Yoshi's mixup games take a bit of time to get to the effective parts (Example: A, 2A, WS K, A,K[B]). Yoshi has the fast A strikes, but after 2A, the wait to initiate WS K, and finishing the combo is what kills him. After seeing X's AA, I realized that Yoshi does get crippled by that during his mixup games. Currently, I'm trying to figure out ways past X's AA and 3K. But from a technical standpoint, it seems that Yoshi would be the better character. Throw in the human element, and the technical views become null.

No offense, but your analysis is WAY off in some parts.

First off, Yoshi's A is one frame slower than X's. Her A is 10 frames, his is 11.

Second, what do you mean by A,K[B]? No such move exists. His main juggle after WS K is 6K.

Third, Yoshi doesn't have much use for 2A in general. His main tool up close is his 1A series, as it tracks step, is safe, and gives him awesome frame advantage on hit. Problem is, X's AA beats out a lot of stuff that it technically shouldn't, for some odd reason.

Fourth, X's 3K isn't exactly a good move, so I don't know why you mentioned it.

A ranged game is an excellent way to fight X, like I stated in an earlier post. Staying away from a character's ideal range is definitely the best defense, in my opinion.

Kilik is really the only character who's proven capable of consistently out-spacing X. In truth, X is better at mid-range than almost every other so-called "mid-range" character in the game. Range in SC2 generally doesn't work like people think it should anyways (like how Talim has no problem getting in on Asta).

I do realize that a lot of characters cant play a ranged game like Nightmare, Astaroth, or Ivy,

Asta has no reason to try to out-space X, because he can't. If anything, he wants to get in so he can throw her. Nightmare can't really keep her out either.

Their attacks usually outspeed X's, though, leading to punished attacks on X's part.

Uhm...X is one of the fastest characters in the game. Nobody outspeeds her, and only Talim and Taki can really match her in overall speed.

WoW........

First off, X is not broken like y'all think.

X is just super safe....


SC2 > T4

SC2 is a very good soild ass game... X is not broken.... she's SAFE... I don't play the whore and don't like her, but I'll admit she's not hard to beat when you play right... SC vets know what I'm talkin bout.... I can't really go into detail bout sc2 unless y'all want 20 pages of ramble so fuck that....

bottom line y'all have no idea about soul calibur 2 like I have no clue about MKseries....

but on another note, def come join the darkside & hop on sc2 = great game...

peace

btw Zig... Mick's Sophie = WOWZER.

Cool cat, he came to MLG in Dallas a few weeks back... super cool guy, plays the meanest Sophie in the history of SC... hard ass shit...

and RTD = sickest X alive.. seriously... have you played that shit? 4-5 moves TOPS the whole match..


I'm hope'n to get RTD first round at TiT6 in Dallas June 12th bitches

I played RTD at Evo2K3 in winners finals during first-round pool play. But here's the crazy thing: I almost beat him.O_O It was game 3, I was up 2 rounds to 0, and he was one solid hit away from being KO'd. He came back 3 rounds straight for the win.

I dunno -- just listening to you guys spout on SC2 makes me kinda glad that MKDA is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE THAT. Now while I may own people in 1P shooters (especially Halo), when it comes to fighters, I'm nothing but a scrub. My polish-sausage fingers have a hard time pulling off many of the more complicated moves, and things like juggles have always eluded me.

I tried playing SC2. It's kinda fun, but a lot of these cool features you guys say should be in every fighter I just find annoying. I guess I'm happy enough playing Spawn against the computer and sticking to basic attacking, throwing and blocking. (I'd bet if I were interested enough to learn where characters were tiered, I'd probably find Spawn was pretty low, but I don't give a crap.)

I first liked Mortal Kombat because it was a simplistic fighter with cool characters. Today, it is still mostly simplistic with cool characters (yet still starting to get more complicated then I'd prefer). I can still, however, take comfort in the fact that MK can be discussed without people reverting into some kind of foreign language, like they apparently do with SC2.

If you want a complicated, deep fighter, then SC2, Virtua Fighter, etc. were designed for you. MK is for the rest of us.

Very few moves in Soul Calibur, with the exception of a couple of command throws, have difficult inputs. The terminology you see as martian, 4K, 6B, etc. is just simplification. What 4k really means is back and the kick button. Look at the number pad on your keyboard and you'll get the idea. You rarely ever have to use all the tools in a game and you don't even have to understand them if you don't plan on entering large tournaments. And judging by your post you don't seem to have that desire. Basically if you find that you can't consistently get off one or two moves in Soul Calibur, big deal, there's other options. With MK there isn't so if MK:D has more options it won't ruin your experience because it won't take away what you like to do but it would end up offering people who want more exactly that.