Keeping away from X is not easy at all. It's one of the reasons she is broken, so saying she can be beaten with a string of long range attacks doesn't really mean much. Any good Astaroth or Nightmare will tell you this.

Yah, Luigi>Doc>Mario. Mario is mediocre, but he can still get it done vs most chars. I think he struggls vs the big three tho(fox,marth,sheik).

Kirby got RAPED in SSBM! He went from the best in SSB to one of the bottom 5 in SSBM. They nerfed Ness ALMOST as bad.

I never said it was easy. I said it is the best tactic to use if you play against a good X (I should have mentioned this earlier, but I am speaking from a long ranged player's viewpoint). I should know; I play Nightmare almost 24/7. Xianghua is definitely not easy to beat, but you'd have a better chance by playing keep-away.
And a string of well placed long range strikes help a lot, though not frequently. It does mean much when playing against a good short ranged to middle ranged character such as X, Talim, Taki, etc.

X isn't broken. A bit unfair at times, but definitely not broken. If anyone is broken, it's Necrid and Heihachi.

Versatile Wrote: Keeping away from X is not easy at all. It's one of the reasons she is broken, so saying she can be beaten with a string of long range attacks doesn't really mean much. Any good Astaroth or Nightmare will tell you this.

X is broken, just being beatable doesn't make you unbroken, she's still head and shoulders harder to beat than any of the other defaults.

Heihachi is rape on wheels though.

Still, all fighting games are broken. You can't name one real fighter that isn't.

-F.

Nah. She is harder to beat than most of the defaults, I agree. But I don't think she's broken. Broken is at Heihachi's level.

fenix Wrote: X is broken, just being beatable doesn't make you unbroken, she's still head and shoulders harder to beat than any of the other defaults. Heihachi is rape on wheels though. Still, all fighting games are broken. You can't name one real fighter that isn't. -F.

Mario has the hardest time with a good Fox but from my experience, he's got what he needs to deal with a good Shiek or Marth even though he's at the technical disadvantage.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Mario has the hardest time with a good Fox but from my experience, he's got what he needs to deal with a good Shiek or Marth even though he's at the technical disadvantage.

I really wish I had some SSBM comp

I'm sure I'm horrible at the game becausse i have yet to test my skill against anyone well versed in the game. I think that SSBM is great tho. MK is just now incorporating some of the things that SSBM is well know for.

multi tiered stages, stage weapons, ring out game, etc.

I guess this is why SSBM is considered to be a real game after all.

The Shoryken board flames ssbm but I think a true fighter enthusiast will play any fighter and not really flame another game unless it is truly bad.

I definitely don't think game mechanics being complicated is a testament to a fighting game being good or not.

SSBM has the simplest mechanics...because of this the game is more about strategy and tactics and not wether or not you can memorize and have the dexterity to pull of a 10 hit chain.

If I had my way I would simplify fighting mechanics to a degree.

SC2 sports simple mechanics except for Summon Suffering and Criminal Symphony. The game is good for mashers and skilled players alike. Thats probably the reason why SC2 tournies have turnout of 50 plus people everytime.

EASY to pick up

Hard to master

I can honestly say that I'm only good with X and I've been playing SC2 on and off for a year now.

I can play Cervy, Ivy, voldo, and Taki, but not at the level of my "X"

rayrokka Wrote: TonyTheTiger Wrote: Mario has the hardest time with a good Fox but from my experience, he's got what he needs to deal with a good Shiek or Marth even though he's at the technical disadvantage. I really wish I had some SSBM comp I'm sure I'm horrible at the game becausse i have yet to test my skill against anyone well versed in the game. I think that SSBM is great tho. MK is just now incorporating some of the things that SSBM is well know for. multi tiered stages, stage weapons, ring out game, etc. I guess this is why SSBM is considered to be a real game after all. The Shoryken board flames ssbm but I think a true fighter enthusiast will play any fighter and not really flame another game unless it is truly bad. I definitely don't think game mechanics being complicated is a testament to a fighting game being good or not. SSBM has the simplest mechanics...because of this the game is more about strategy and tactics and not wether or not you can memorize and have the dexterity to pull of a 10 hit chain. If I had my way I would simplify fighting mechanics to a degree. SC2 sports simple mechanics except for Summon Suffering and Criminal Symphony. The game is good for mashers and skilled players alike. Thats probably the reason why SC2 tournies have turnout of 50 plus people everytime. EASY to pick up Hard to master I can honestly say that I'm only good with X and I've been playing SC2 on and off for a year now. I can play Cervy, Ivy, voldo, and Taki, but not at the level of my "X"

You know it's funny. There's two types of big time fighting game fans. The hardcore, and the H4RDC0R3. The hardcore like to play games that are good and fun. The H4RDCOR3 like to feel elite by labeling games as simple and attempt to raise themselves up as being the superior judge of quality. The way I see it, a fighting game is as good as the mindgames you can play. Because at the highest levels of play everyone knows how to do things no matter how easy or difficult they are to pick up and learn. So it comes down to playing smarter not harder.

I don't think my Mario is the best in the world but I can do all his moves at will and time them right. If that was the end all measure of skill then I along with everyone else could claim perfection. But if I'm fighting a Samus I know I have to play a different game than if I was fighting DK. But then it doesn't end at character to character strategies either. I have to develop tactics to counter the person's play style. The saying that there's always someone better is true. There are Mewtwo, Bowser and Pichu players out there that can whoop my ass.

Depth isn't based on complexity. Depth is based on options. What can I do? That's the most important question in fighting games.

Well, Nightmare or Ivy even on their BEST day are still below Xianghua's level, and nobody else even comes close (cept maybe Kilik, though the game engine kills him). On top of that several characters (Yun, Maxi, Raph, Cerv) who can't even touch her when played right compounds that.

That's what I call broken.

-F.

This a MK Forum discussion or a SC2 discussion?

There's nothing wrong with a little break to talk about other games. I actually love Smash Bros. discussion no matter where it is.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: There's nothing wrong with a little break to talk about other games. I actually love Smash Bros. discussion no matter where it is.

I agree.
I wonder if the SC2 fighters can hold their own in a battle with the SSBM fighters



SC2 pic courtesy of http://www.zelda-infinite.com/files/wallpapers/



SSBM pic courtesy of http://lagrangeduweb.free.fr/index.php3?page=sswallpapers

Mario would kick Kilik to Brooklyn and back.

Wouldn't it be dope if you could side step into attacks like in SC2 and T4. Like Sisdestep+2 with sub-zero could be a hook to the face. Also, in addition to that there could be side walk moves. like while sidwalking + 3 with Scorpion could be a blazing flame kick that causes frame disadvantaged and guarantees a throw mix up. Something dope like that. Add this to the list Tony in your own words.

fenix Wrote: Well, Nightmare or Ivy even on their BEST day are still below Xianghua's level, and nobody else even comes close (cept maybe Kilik, though the game engine kills him). On top of that several characters (Yun, Maxi, Raph, Cerv) who can't even touch her when played right compounds that. That's what I call broken. -F.

Let's take a look at this a bit. Nightmare on his best day is below most characters' levels, unfortunately. It's not new news. The only people that Nightmare is above are YunSung and Sophitia, in terms of overall performance.

I do agree, though, that X rapes Ivy any day of the week.

Kilik and X are pretty much tied if on a tier list, so I agree with that comment. I don't know about the game engine killing him, though...

Let's take a look at the four characters you used as examples. YunSung sucks all around, and is the worst Soul Calibur character. Most of his moves leave him at a huge disadvantage on block, and his good moves are too few to be of much use. Against X, it's obvious that a YunSung player would have a hard time against her.

Maxi is mostly close range, but X can play close and medium. That already gives him a weakness which is a major factor in SC, range. I don't use Maxi much, so I don't have much comments for him. He seems like a mediocre character to me.

Raphael is a mostly vertical character. That's a bad thing against X. Actually, it's a bad thing against almost every character in SC2. It's no surprise that most Raphael players don't go far in tournaments.

Cervantes can rape X and then some. Cervantes has more than enough moves for almost any situation, and some have really good benefits. Cervantes owns Xianghua, as well as pretty much any character in SC2. The only one that is almost on the same level with him is Yoshimitsu. There is also Heihachi, and he's broken all around. He was pretty much broken in the Tekken series as well. Definitely more broken than any SC character.

You didn't give good examples. Most of the characters you gave as examples pretty much suck against most SC2 characters. It doesn't prove much.

X is insanely difficult to beat at the top of her game, but I don't think she's broken. She might be a bit in certain instances, but definitely not seriously broken. You haven't provided sufficient info to sway my beliefs otherwise.

Cervantes can take X. Yoshimitsu can take X. Mitsurugi can take X. Kilik can take X. Heihachi can take X.

I think those five are the only characters that can take X on without much difficulty. Give me an instance in which she can destroy any one of these characters by broken means, then I'll experiment it myself. Afterward, I'll come and post my findings.

I am not anywhere close to a SC2 master, but I'm pretty sure of the stuff I'm discussing at this moment. I like discussions like this. They help me be a decent SC2 player overall, and are always enjoyable to take part in.

Good stuff.

Well im no SC2 buff, but i know someone who is.

Well im no SC2 buff, but i know someone who is.

Well im no SC2 buff, but i know someone who is.

Double Post.

It would also be nice if conventional projectiles were eliminated from MK.

Before you reply with useless, idiotic spam, let me explain.

With the way 3D games are these days, things that work in the 2D plane, such as generic fireballs and such, almost never work in 3D. This was horribly evident in MKDA.

Then again, I do realize that the crappy fireballs and iceballs and water balls and plasma balls and fly balls and crap balls and sound wave balls and super eye lasers and such are trademarks for some characters in the MK series.

An easy way to get rid of the conventional 2D plane attacks and still have them doable with their specific characters are through 2 possible things: Throws and/or Tsung-Fireballics.

Now, to the first suggestion. Throws are pretty much essential in almost any fighter worth their salt. MKD could incorporate moves like Sub-Zero's freeze or Kano's laser eye into throws. For example, Sub-Zero grabs the opponent. He can shove the opponent a small distance away from him, and freeze the opponent as he/she recovers from the shove. All of that could be one throw. If throw escapes are implemented in MKD, it would be even better. Example, Sub-Zero uses his shove/freeze maneuver. When Sub-Zero shoves his opponent, the opponent could escape by performing a back handspring into a prone, lying position to avoid the incoming freeze blast. Or the opponent could just feint falling from the shove and let the ice blast fly above them. Or the opponent could dive roll over the ice or to the side. It would be nice if throw escapes depended upon a character's weight, seeing as there are some pretty hefty characters in MK that could never pull off a back handspring or such maneuvers.

Another example. Kano grabs the opponent's arms, and delivers an uppercut to the opponent, while still holding one arm, so the opponent doesn't go flying. The opponent's head swings upward from the blow, and Kano zaps the exposed throat with his laser.

Escape? Simple. The character pokes Kano in the eyes, and Kano winces in pain. Or the opponent can jump upon recieving the uppercut, and use their feet to kick Kano. Or a pretty strong character could pull off a backflip with Kano still hanging on, and land on him.

The trick here, is to have every part of the throw and maneuver stay as a throw animation until both characters are standing and facing each other again. This would make throws fun and still keep the game balanced. But there are instances of special throws that give frame advantages or position advantages. Maybe a character could have 2 of those, but the consequences of them being escaped will give the opponent the advantages. In my example of Sub-Zero's freeze, the character can stay frozen after the throw, but if any attack is launched against the frozen character, the damage would be second to none. Pop up attacks and launchers would not launch if the character is frozen, just to keep things balanced.

The damage value should be kept to a minimum, as well. Some throws can take more damage than others, but not too much. A detailed, yet simple throw system like this would be a great innovation. It would give each character a special set of throws and throw escapes that are unique to them and them only. Not the crap throws that were in MKDA. "Wow, look. A backflip kick throw! This is like, the fourth character I've seen it on already!"

Seriously, it needs major innovation.

But, as rammSP00n stated somewhere, I doubt the MK Team has the potential creativity to pull something like this off.

On to the second example, Tsung-Fireballics. Shang Tsung had two throws which took to the realm of 3D. His close and far circling fireball thingies. It would be nice to give moves like this to some characters, or maybe projectiles that are wide, horizontal arcs that prevent any form of sidestepping, and can only be avoided by crouching. That would also be a great idea, but I'm more for the projectile/throw idea.

Versatile Wrote: Well im no SC2 buff, but i know someone who is.

I could care less. Most "SC2 buffs" state that X is broken, but don't provide sufficient info to back that claim up. Some have very good points, but most of them can be countered by good practice habits against X.

If you still want to refer me to this "buff", PM me.

starwinderbeta Wrote: Let's take a look at this a bit. Nightmare on his best day is below most characters' levels, unfortunately. It's not new news. The only people that Nightmare is above are YunSung and Sophitia, in terms of overall performance.

Nightmare is one of the most fundamentally solid characters in the game, and is upper mid for sure. Granted, nobody agrees on SC2 tiers much these days, but some consider Nighty to be top 5, and they make a damn good case for it.

Oh yeah, Sophie is bottom 2 my ass. She's now one of the most brain-dead easy characters in the game.

I do agree, though, that X rapes Ivy any day of the week.

This is true, but do you really know why?:P

Raphael is a mostly vertical character. That's a bad thing against X. Actually, it's a bad thing against almost every character in SC2. It's no surprise that most Raphael players don't go far in tournaments.

Being linear applies to so many characters that it really doesn't matter. Only a handful of characters actually have a true anti-step move, and Raph's linearity isn't an issue if you turtle. Defensive Raph is damn good.

Cervantes owns Xianghua, as well as pretty much any character in SC2.

This has never been proven. In fact, X has proven to be one of Cervy's harder matchups, because step doesn't work against her.

Cervy in general is overrated as well. In theory, he's great 'cause you just make people whiff and own them. But once people stop letting you step them for free, he becomes a lot harder to win with than people though.

Cervy's basic 50/50's aren't that great. He arguably has the worst throws in the game, and lacks a fast low that knocks down or does big damage. His lows are good, just not for serious mixups. I still think Cervy's buff, but every top EC and WC player I've met and played thinks he's just upper mid. Since FetZ and JOP stopped playing, we've yet to see a style with Cervy that's actually effective enough to warrant ranking him in the top 5.

Yoshimitsu can take X.

This assumption has also proven to be wrong. X is a VERY tough matchup for Yoshi, largely because it's hard for him to get in on her. Even when he gets in, her AA is difficult for him to deal with, and this is on HIT. Even if you hit X and go for a mixup, a lot of options will lose to AA, due to either speed issues or lack of reliable tech crouch frames. Yoshi can still mix things up, but it puts him in a potentially risky situation where both players have to guess, thus making what should have been an advantageous situation for Yoshi almost neutral instead.

Anyways, the truth is that almost every character is as big a whore as X, if not more so in some cases. It's just that she was the first, and has consistently proven to be one of, if not the, best tournament characters in the game. To have a solid foundation against X, you want safety, so more characters are good against her than you've mentioned.

I'd say the best anti-X characters are probably Kilik, Mitsu, Cass, Sophie, Talim, and probably Nightmare. Kilik outspaces her and is disgustingly safe as well. Mitsu can effectively punish her 3A and 3B and 2K lets him threaten strong 50/50's where other characters can't. Cass and Sophie can match her poking and punish 3A very well (Sophie is the best low punisher in the game, hands down). Talim can punish 3A well, has great horizontals, and her basic mixups are even safer than X's. I'm not sure if Nightmare has a real advantage over her, but he's so stupid and safe that he can play the same game as her.

If you still want to refer me to this "buff", PM me.

Hi.

Hey there. I think I spoke with you one or two times before. One through Instant Messenger, and one at either soulcalibur or soulcalibur2.com.

You have some very nice info here. I'll be sure to experiment with them when I can, then I'll get back to you.

In the meantime, do you have any videos that reflect some of your examples? If you do, PM me, plz.
btw, when and why did FetZ and JOP stop playing?

Zig21 Wrote: Hi.

Hey, Zig, are you from Seattle, around the HUB?

Well, I kind of got beaten to the punch (a weekend without internet will do that to you) but most of what I would've said (though not in so many words) is in the post above mine. But I will mention a few things;

Cervantes can take X.

Almost totally untrue, because Cervantes can't throw, and he has no quick lows and X is like 3 times faster than him in general. He can hammer her (with just about anything) if you let him back away (Cervy almost ALWAYS starts off the round on top), but once he runs out of room, or Xiang hua gets within 3K range or even well placed GI can totally turn the tide. Watch any tournament footage involving Cerv (though I don't think this was evident more than a year and a half ago when everyone thought Cervy was doomed), this ones kind of a no brainer.

Yoshimitsu can take X.

Also untrue, though factually I have no grounds to prove it aside from again, watch tourney footage. On paper, I would actually agree with you since Yoshi's got all the characteristics that X should lose to (rush, lockdown, lots of soul charge options), but it's matchups like this that reveal there is evidence from casual play and in theory should go one way, but in actual application go the other. Unfortunately, SC2 has a LOT of this, especially when Mits, Asta or Kilik is the subject of discussion.

Mitsurugi can take X. Kilik can take X.

Debatable, but probably true. I won't argue. They are the top tier.

Heihachi can take X.

This is pretty much an empty statement since you can replace X with * and the statement is still true. If a broken character is beatable by another broken character, it doesn't make the first any less broken. If anything, it makes the later even more broken.

Still, I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about. I'm glad you know some stuff, which makes this worth talking about. Still, in my eyes, when only TWO characters (in a game of ~20) can convincingly beat another, and even that's at the really high end of play (one I don't even play on cuz it's not fun) that one character is broken.

Does anybody know where Voldo stands Tier wise? I've seen him placed everywhere from just above Yun / Sophi / Maxi to right under Asta / Night / Ivy.

-F.