I don't think there is a problem between us...since when has there been a problem? How long has this been going on?!? Seriously, though, I'm not saying that our discussions here are a joke or anything, but don't take them to heart, man. A lot of my discussions are just to balance out yours.

See, I recently made a post in another thread saying that I think each character's story should be important, and that each character be he major protagonist of their own story. I questioned why we did need a hierarchy of characters. You seem to get confused between what you want and what is there, though. Like it or not, Liu Kang is the main hero of Mortal Kombat. Sure, he took a holiday from MKDA, MKD and MKA, but there is no other character who starred in multiple games. That says something. And, again, that is the reason Liu Kang's death had any impact at all.

I understand how ensembles work. Arrested Development has a great ensemble cast. Mortal Kombat could work fantastically as an ensemble cast. I'd go as far as to say the first game was an ensemble, until they broke out and made Shao Kahn the main antagonist and Liu Kang the main protagonist. The rest of the characters are a great supporting cast. I think the next game should give each character similar dramatic importance. The fact is, Baraka is nowhere near Liu Kang's level in the story, to borrow an analogy from you. Poor Baraka.

If you can find any part of my previous post where I said those endings were canon, I'd give you a cookie. My point was, before they clusterfucked the story, those heresay endings all ran together really smoothly. For the first time in ages, it seemed thought and effort went into putting together some endings that didn't necessarily clash. The point isn't that they're canon. The point is that they all fit logically together. You're allowed to confuse what you'd like to see happen with what really happens. Why can't I when there is logic attached to it? If you can't follow the clues to see how Liu Kang fits into the current story, well, I'm sorry. Some people -- if they don't know, you can't tell them.

By "problem", I just meant disagreement.

As far as Kang goes, three games in a row (four if you count the fact that he's just another cast member, not the central figure, in MKvsDC and it's Raiden who saves the day in the end) is not a "holiday", it's a change of direction. Liu WAS the main protagonist, he's not anymore.
And I don't see any signs on the horizon that he's going to be returned to that spot and I don't know why you do. Why do you expect MK9 to be some sort of return to the old ways rather than progress?

Mongolia; well known for its tropical resorts and wakeboarding comps.



Reptile doesn't leave a trail of ice if/when he slides, silly.
Arbitrary palette swaps (ie; Smoke spear), good logic, do not make.

Mongolia ain't cold enough for giant ice stalagmites to grow indoors either.

And Smoke may be a palette swap, but NOT of Sub-Zero. Canonically, his only established powers are producing smoke, teleporting (which has at times been depicted as, and can be explained as turning himself into smoke), and throwing a kunai with a rope attached, which is only a power when Scorpion does it, because the rope is produced from a hole in his palm.
So you have yet to provide a logical reason, even if Kori CAN be taught, to give it to the whole clan pre-Deadly Alliance.

This is a multiple choice response:

A) What makes you think it wasn't a salectite cut and beautifully positioned next to an icey throne for decorative purposes?
B) Like the kind a lot of cold warriors might produce? Hmmm...
C) Cardboard iconography in MK? What a country!
D) The floundering comes to an end because the water has frozen.
E) I don't know what a sprite strip has to do with kori being a learnt art, as indicative by characters, as opposed to unreasonable assumptions drawn from information that quite reasonably suggests the semantic opposite.


It's like I knew how it was going to end. Spooky!
Mick-Lucifer future-sight must be canon!

The information DOESN'T support the opposite though. You have one stage of a sloppy, rushed game, where generic enemies make the ground slippery, while I have the combined creative intent of MK Mythologies, Deadly Alliance, and Deception, to state that Sub-Zero and Frost are a non-human race with unique and exclusive traits and abilities.

To push as hard against the tide as you have been, to believe so strongly in your idea, you must have a personal stake in the percieved creative value of that idea. And I know you do, based on the time we had this argument before, which was over your webcomic.
You want Kori to be learnable because you for some reason like the idea of clans as homogeneous.
Personally, I find that idea creatively bankrupt and limiting of the potential for future drama in Sub-Zero, a character established as deeply valuing his heritage and the things that have been passed down to him, whose failure with Frost means he now has no successor. But my personal feelings on the matter aren't the primary reason I argue for my side here. I argue for my side because it has more numerous evidence with greater value.

Are you trying to convince me, OR YOURSELF? Ohhhhh!


If you want me, I'll be over there, imagining MKDA and MKD tell me things I want to hear! OoOoOoOoooo!

I don't think he'll go back to being the main protagonist. I think it is highly likely his presence will return to the games, though. I think he's far more likely than Fujin, for example. It would actually make sense if Kang returned in a mentor sort of role. It could turn out to be quite the ironic story if Liu Kang defeated Raiden, the Elder Gods banished him to the Netherealm, chose Liu Kang to replace Raiden because of his years doing good deeds for the realms (no, he's not a god...yet), and we got Liu Kang in the position Raiden was with Shinnok years and years and years before.

Kang's experience in the games, a little more so than Kung Lao, in my opinion, makes him a fantastic "passing the torch" candidate. As long as they don't give him the center stage again (which I think they will have learned from MK4, where Kang's character didn't do anything to really support Kai). That's why I suggest him as a character you can unlock within the game. As a hidden character, it could be a lot of fun to get the old hero of the games in a "oh, you're fucked now" thing for fans, who then go Bruce Lee, god-style on all their opponents' asses. I certainly wouldn't market him for the game, and would just leave him in there as a supporting part of the story.

Really, keeping Kung Lao would be just as much a step to nowhere. The only difference between him and Liu Kang, really, is that Lao hasn't been the main guy for as many games, and personal preference of character. And just so you know, you're one of my favourite posters here. Discussions with you, XD and Sub-Zero_7th are a load of fun. Please don't take my disagreeing with you occasionally as anything negative.

Excuse me, but do you think you are funny? Your level of arrogance keeps making me sick.

That's how Mick always is. I'd say "you get used to it", but frankly, we really shouldn't have to. That would be excusing the behavior. I'm pretty sure he's British too, which makes me glad I can't hear him out loud because that accent would make the smugness like ten times worse.



Don't worry, I only take it personal when my opponent is a stubborn idiot and I feel like my time is being wasted trying to fit the square peg of knowledge into the round hole of their brain. You I've got no problem with because we obviously understand one another's points and you can back yourself up. You're also not a snotty jerk, which is a definite plus.

Anyway, the problems I see in your Liu Kang ideas are:

1) It's defeating Raiden way too soon. We haven't even seen him DO anything as a villain yet. I'd like to see Raiden built up to a main boss role SLOWLY over the next couple games, in a way that doesn't make it completely obvious to those around him what he's up to, so some of the heroes might even mistakenly join his side. If you don't build up a villain properly, they end up being a failure. Look at Shinnok in MK4. Kahn and Onaga got proper buildup and they feel like genuine threats and characters worth remembering...but still Kahn has never been topped. You wanna top Kahn, you gotta take your time and do it right and I think Dark Raiden definitely has what it takes to top Kahn as a villain.

And 2) As I've said, having Liu go from dead to a god is quite a leap in power. The Elder Gods don't have any kind of history of handing that sort of thing out. Taven, a half-god, could only become a full god by winning some clandestine power boost the origin of which was never properly explained, for instance. In fact, that right there IS the only logical way Liu could become a god. His Armageddon ending would have to come true. And I'm expecting something more a little more Taven and Daegon related.

So unlike Liu, Kung Lao is currently alive and well, nothing even has to change in the status quo for him to become a mentor to new Shaolin characters.

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss these things, and I thank you for being a terrific poster. I'll address point one, and then point two, because that seems like the logical way to do things.

1) I see your point here, and I do not disagree. If I am speaking from an unbiased perspective, Raiden is one of the most iconic Mortal Kombat characters, and it seems his story was fairly short-changed in the closing chapters to the past saga. That being said, personally, I am not too interested in evil Raiden. I'm trying to think of something that could be done with him, but I think if he were written out of the games tomorrow, it would be a very similar circumstance to what he eventually would even if he did become a main villain.

I'd also like to see a new evil character take the focal role opposite the "good guys" in the next few installments. Someone that could be compared to Shao Kahn, but obviously a stand-alone character. From an intellectual point of view, I can understand why you'd want to follow the Raiden through, though, although I have to say, as far as good guys joining Raiden goes, wouldn't Liu Kang make an interesting choice? I've gotten the impression that Liu Kang and Raiden interacted a fair bit, and hold a high esteem for one another. Kang being either tricked into helping Raiden, or being the one to fight against him (as Armageddon implied was a possibility), would be something.

2) I entirely get where you're coming from, but do we know much about the Elder Gods? So far, they are still pretty mysterious. We know that they elect Champions, can promote elemental gods to protectors and Elders, etc. It does seem that being a god is hereditary, but we don't know for a fact that the Elder Gods can't appoint and outstanding mortal to a deity position. And there's always a first time for everything. I'm not sure if you like or are even familiar with the anime Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT, but think something along the lines of Goku fusing with the Eternal Dragon. It's a "destiny" thing, I guess.

I still can't get behind Kung Lao as a character that would return in the next games. Even if you don't count his supposed death in MK3, they did have the character go into retirement. If you don't count his death in MK5, then you still have to consider he was enslaved and failed to achieve his objective. It's not that I don't like Kung Lao. I thought his character took fantastic steps in Deadly Alliance -- I just feel that they may have done some hefty damage to his character by killing him for Deception. I just cannot put him ahead of Raiden or Liu Kang in terms of importance. If he didn't return as a playable character, I'd have to question it, too, because the new story should start off uncluttered and be as streamlined as possible. I'm not sure I trust Kung Lao to be a big part of the story, especially seeing as he's been looking for ways out for a while.

1) It's far too late for Liu to be tricked by Raiden, what with the whole "You defiled my grave and turned my body into a murdering zombie!" thing. And Taven and Fujin clearly know there's something wrong with him and he's not to be trusted anymore. Anyone else though is fair game, I think.

2) If we know anything about the Elder Gods, it's that they absolutely do not give a shit what happens in the mortal realms unless the ENTIRE universe is in danger of coming to an end. And Raiden is by no means that big a threat yet. He certainly could be after proper buildup...but not just yet. So even if the Elders could turn mortals into gods, I don't believe they would do so for Liu, at least not at this point in time.
And honestly, nothing personal to Dragonball Z fans, I enjoy the show and all, in a mindless fun sort of way...but using it as an example for how other fictions should deal with power-upgrades is a beyond terrible idea. The worst thing in the whole series is the way Goku and the villains just keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger until it's ridiculously over the top.

3) I can appreciate how you feel about Kung Lao and his many deaths...but the fact that he's alive and well right now is really the only thing that matters as far as the future is concerned. And besides, it's not ABOUT importance. I've said many times I don't want him to be a main character, I want him to be in the background for some NEW main characters, the way Bo Rai' Cho was a barely relevant supporting character for other, much more important heroes. The way I'm picturing Kung Lao is retired, not a playable character. He'd be a hidden unlockable at the very most.

1) I'll admit that I'm not too up-to-date on Liu Kang's zombie story. I know he was investigating the horrors his body was doing, but I was never aware that Kang discovered Raiden was behind it, and that he swore to get revenge or whatever. If that's the case, then it would make sense. Unless Raiden somehow took Kang's soul, added a dark tint to it somehow, restored him to life, and Kang sort of appreciated the new approach Raiden was taking -- if for selfish reasons. I don't know, I'm throwing it out there.

2) With Mortal Kombat being the Elder Gods' tournament, they would probably take notice of its Champion. If Raiden, one of them, was defeated by Kang, I think they would consider him worthy of their respect. And if there was no one else they felt was ready for the job. It'd basically be a major promotion for Kang, and I don't think it would glitch the story in any way.

As for Dragon Ball Z, I agree with the mindless fun bit, but I think the genre is very compatible with Mortal Kombat. If only for light analogical purposes. The series really dropped off after the Frieza thing, and then they started adding Super Saiyan levels on top of Super Saiyan levels. That got a bit silly. The idea of Goku eventually reaching a spiritual state where he advanced beyond the mortal realm was sort of a peaceful ending, though. Something like that for Kang could be cool.

3) Why couldn't Liu Kang be alive after Armageddon? If Kung Lao can die, come back, and be accepted as alive, then why can't Louie? What you suggested for Kung Lao is pretty much what I would like to see happen to Liu Kang -- only instead of remaining the same character, just choosing not to fight (which I think is unrealistic considering the skill level of the characters, especially if Earthrealm is in trouble), there would be rules getting in the way of making it possible for Kang.

1) Eh, I guess he could cast some sort of soul tainting spell, but the whole point of my idea of good guys taking Raiden's side is they're supposed to be tricked into it, making Raiden look like a clever manipulator. Brainwashing spells are a cheap shortcut used by uncreative writers. *cough*shaolinmonkskitana*cough*

2) You'd think that, sure...but look at MK3. Kahn blatantly breaks the rules of the tournament, the Elder Gods' rules, and they don't do a damn thing about it except protect a handful of humans and say "good luck fighting back". They've twice outright forbid Raiden from getting involved in a crisis, forcing him to defy them and take a less powerful form.
So no, I think the Elder Gods really, REALLY don't care about mortals, or at the very least, want them to solve their own problems rather than relying on being saved by a higher power.
They didn't even create them, so why should they care about them? The citizens of the realms are just leftover pieces of the One Being's subconscious mind. The fact that people live is a side effect of the OB's defeat. They don't want to babysit us and hold our hands, that's why they created the lesser gods like Raiden, to do it for them.
As long as nothing is threatening them DIRECTLY, like Shinnok or the possible return of the One Being, they'll ignore the problem entirely. The games have proven time and time again that they're a bunch of dicks. Inventing Mortal Kombat is literally the ONLY good thing they have ever done for the people of the realms, and they did it to prevent mergers, which would bring back the One Being, so they did THAT for themselves as well.
Maybe a few games from now, when Raiden has had the proper "main boss" buildup and he's actively working to merge or destroy realms, THEN the Elder Gods could step in and empower someone like Liu to stop him. Because at that point, what he's doing would be relevant to them. But not Armageddon/Pre-MK9. There's just no reason for them to do it now.

3) Kung Lao had a method of return. His first death turned out to be a ruse and his second was immediately undone by a character who had the power to resurrect and a reason to do so. If you want Liu back, you gotta explain the how, and as I said, the Elder Gods are an illogical fit. The only person with the power to rejoin Liu's body with his soul, who would actually want to, is Raiden. And that would bring us right back to point #1.