RepTiLesTyLe Wrote: Personally i think it is silly to ban a character.. customized or not. Yes, i understand what you all are saying about having an unfair advantage with him (opponents not knowing what stances/s.m's he has been assigned), but lets face reality guys, no matter who you pick in an MK game, unless you are doing a mirror match, 1 character will already have an advantage. Banning a customized character for the excuses you gave is pretty much the equivilant of saying you cannot do any combos/juggles that arent listed on the command list because the other character didnt know to expect them. C'mon guys, how silly is that?? Everyone on this board is so convinced that they are one of the only good MK players out there, and the rest of the kommunity are a bunch of scrubs. Is this "ban" an attempt to safeguard that opinion???? When it comes to Shujinko, its as simple as this, if your oppenent picks him, you pick him. If you picked first, then he picked Shujinko, pick him next match, or fuck him as he fucked you when he picks first. You cant honestly say a Shujinko v Shujinko match would be unfair. Both of you had the same oppurtunity to customize the character to ur liking. You cant hold it against someone one for being better than you or knowing how to play better. In no way am i flaming.. just being the devils advocate on this one.

I dunno man. I think that if a tournament is banning Shujinko that should just be the end of it. It's hard to argue your points tho. But what if you don't want to use him? What if you wanted to win a tournament using solely Kabal or something to represent. You'd be forced to use a character you don't want to use just to compete.
Here's what I say about the matter, Greg has great points, but I believe that it's all up to the tournament holder. If he wants to allow Shujinko then its all fair game. Afterall, it is the players decision on whether he wants to enter the tournament or not.
As for what Tony said, if there is a default Shujinko and hes unchanged then he should be allowed no matter what tourney stipulation.
All I know is im most likely not entering a tournament where he's allowed unless it's a special "all shunjinko" tournament.
Speaking of, I think it would be ill to hold "one char tournaments" just to see who's the top dog with who like they do at tournaments like Evo.

The thing with the customizable Shujinko argument vs. a Top tier character argument is that Shujinko is unadaptable.
Lets say you were playing some low-tier character, after facing a top-tier character several times, you understand what you have to do in order to beat him. So you go into the match with the mindset of being either more defensive/offensive, risky, what options you need to take, which ones you can't afford to take, what you can punish him with if he does X instead of Y, what he can punish you with if you do A instead of B, etc.
For example, I play Baiken in Guilty Gear XX and no way am I going to attack to counter Ky with my slash counter. All I can do in that scenario is bait him with standing slashes and hope he screws up if I plan to use my slash counter at all into a roman cancel then combo loop. I cannot counter Ky at all really unless I have stock to cancel the move to be safe. Or take for instance Baiken vs Sol, I know that Sol does not have the leverage of being as safe and long-reach as Ky, so I know I can counter him much more safely and I'll proceed to rush him down and try to get him knockdowned where I can safely do a 50/50 mixup. Sol will also eat guranteed counters off of certain moves from me since he doesn't recover fast enough. That is what specializing in a character or character(s) is all about, knowing what you should and shouldn't do in certain matchups.
An MKDA example was of certain matchups and such that Verse has pointed out in the past. Things like Subby's Shotokan being useful against chars like Reptile due to their speed or Quan Chi posing problems for Bo Rai Cho even though he's not top tier. There's a lot of skill in character matchups and understanding it. That's why we have players in other games that are signature at using X character.
If you were playing any character vs Shujinko, that skill of analyzation of what you should or should not try, and matchups is entirely gone out of the window. Instead you are adapting to that version of Shujinko at that current match of time.
That is the equivalent of say you playing Street Fighter 2 for example and some random new character whose moves and pokes you do not know of in the final match of the tournament. There is simply no plausible way to learn how to fight Shujinko if he is constantly changing.
That's a skill thats gauged in competitive and tournament play. People using characters and understand what advantages and disadvantages they have over other characters. You lose all of that when you face Shujinko if he's customizable. It's no longer a competition, challenge, or a test of skill; but luck.
I mean a customizable Shujinko is fun, especially for replayability, combo vids, etc. but it's not really tournament worthy.
As for Shujinko vs Shujinko, that's even more random. =P

So yeah, I don't particularly think it's the question of whether it's unfair or not as much as whether the match is still a measure of both player skill and knowledge. Because in a Shujinko situation, I think it's probably a measure of just player reflexes and luck more than anything.

Exactly HDTRAN.. for those reasons alone, only playing against Shujinko does one really prove how good they are.. Anyone can memorize strats and regergitate them when playing against a lower tiered fighter.. When you go into the match not knowing what to expect, theres the real test of skill..
To point out again what ive said before.. And this goes out to all of you, Vers, HD, Saty, TTT, etc.. By banning Shujinko, you guys are no better than the scrubs that come on here and say "I'll kick ur ass" or "you only won cuz you play cheap" cuz you guys are already putting rules down in order to HELP you win. From the way you guys have talked strats, i know you dont need him, but fuck it. It will only give you all more bragging rights when you do beat someone's Shujinko.
I for one am against the banning of him, but im sure most of you are banning. To me, its only a sign of weekness. YOu guys are already admitting defeat by saying "you cant pick him cuz i will lose if you do" its as simple as that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:
Shujinko is not that much of an issue anymore if you force players at tournaments to fight with more than one character (at least 5).
In DA, rocking the shit out of your opponent with Scorpion, for example, doesn't prove much. The true skill lies in the mastery of all.
VQ

VainQueur Wrote: I've said it before, I'll say it again: Shujinko is not that much of an issue anymore if you force players at tournaments to fight with more than one character (at least 5). In DA, rocking the shit out of your opponent with Scorpion, for example, doesn't prove much. The true skill lies in the mastery of all. VQ

Thank you.. exactly

ReptileStyle, you're making valid points but here's the thing. Even in real life there is a reasonable level of knowledge a person needs to have to even stand a chance at succeeding. Take George Foreman for example. He stands as one of the elite few to have beaten Muhammed Ali. He even KO'ed him. Muhammed Ali had the best footwork in boxing, maybe even in martial arts history. Wouldn't Foreman been at a severe disadvantage had he not known what Ali could do? He reviewed Ali's victories, studied film footage of him, etc. It's not really a testament of skill to go into something like that blind. It's stupid.
Moreso, unlike real life, a game is based around limits. A person can only do what the programmers allow. Let's say I'm playing a hacked version of Street Fighter II but I am unaware that it's hacked. My opponent is fully aware of the modifications to the game however. I pick Ken and he picks Guile. We've both won a round a piece and are both nearly dead in the third round. Suddenly his Guile starts doing a hurricane kick and it kills me. Now, is it my fault that I lost? Maybe. But maybe it's because I was unaware that his modified Guile had a hurricane kick to begin with. It would be impossible for me to prepare to deal with the move since his character normally can't do it even though under normal conditions I could have dealt with it. It's unfair to expect an Ermac player on one end to have the mental preparation and dexterity to deal with every single move that's in the game since he doesn't know what could come out next as opposed to the other Shujinko player who knows for a fact he only has to deal with the moves Ermac has for example. He only has to deal with a handful of moves. The Ermac player has to deal with potentially everything. By this standard, if Ermac is my best guy then I should construct Shujinko to play exactly like Ermac. This way I get Ermac but also the added effect of blinding my opponent.
It's like me saying to someone else, "Let's race. I have to run to the line and back twice but you have to do it seven times. Ready, GO!" It's technically possible he could beat me but his speed would have to be far superior to my own.
Hell, I can beat my little cousin at any fighting game without blocking. But if I was in a tournament would it be fair if my block command, be it a button or holding back, didn't work? Maybe I'd win if I was that amazing but I'm not. And even if I was, it's still not fair terrain. I'm not saying I'd win if I could block but if I can't then my matches, whatever happens in them, is tainted. It's not a genuine testament to anyone's best game.
Same goes for a tourney that has Shujinko vs. Ermac. The Ermac player could win but he's still at a disadvantage no matter how you look at it. That's fine for casual play but in a serious tournament everyone needs to be on the same level to get a genuine judgement of skill. I'll get my ass handed to me many times over by Shujinkos and standard guys and though I don't like to speak for anyone else, I'm sure everone here will have their share of defeats. It's not about protecting yourself from defeat but protecting the the tourney results from being tainted by uncertainty and possible randomness. It's why items are disabled in most Smash Bros. Melee tournaments. It's too screwy to expect someone to win when stars are falling on the other guy's head.

In no way do I think there shouldn't be Shujinko allowed tournaments, but like TTT just said, what Shujinko promotes is randomness not skill.
The only reason why playing Scorpion was retarded was because DA was retarded. I fight Sol with my Baiken back in GGXX and even though he's top I can still take Sol players and it's not retarded that they play Sol either. Any other real fighter and the top character isn't a total cheesefest of simpleness like Scorpion.
Honestly, how can it be a test of game knowledge if you're testing against something you've never faced? That's silly, if at every fighting game final, one of the guy pulls out a character no one has ever seen in their life before, wouldn't you think fighting game tournaments would be pointless?
Given MK's rigid animation and risk/safety on some of the stances, this is even worse. You have 50/50 game of mid/low (which seems to be added by throws with no real throw animation) since in the best stances, both options are equal so its hella random, then you add Shujinko ontop and that's even worse.
Trust me, if no one knew what my character was capable of in GGXX, mainly how Baiken is set up, they would never be able to beat me simply because they don't know which option to ideally defend against or watch out for. If people didn't know how fast my counters recovered, the fact that Baiken's low and throw game is all she has and her high game requires her to have a stock bar to stay safe, etc. I would NEVER lose because Baiken is one of the hardest characters to match-up against when you've never faced her before.
You simply cannot define player skill in a fighting game by hand-eye coordination, because that's silly. Almost anyone that competes regularly has the same amount of reflexes as any other player. What seperates top players from great players from good players from decent players is one single thing, knowledge. When you have knowledge of the game, you can see what every option and everything thrown out entails. You see Akira throw out a mid punch on say like Wolf in VF, off of this punch and because wolf is a heavy weight, he knows that his best option is X Y Z. Or if Akira pokes with A he knows that he can be punished AT MOST by A B C.
Honestly, I'm all up for Shujinko wars, if its a test of reflexes; then like I said previously, I will win at least 80-90% of the people that visit this site easily. Simply because I can see, estimate, and time things better than any MK only player ever can because I've developed it. Dude,m I'm not shitting you when I tell you I can semi-count frames with my eye and can time thing within 2-3 frame windows. 2 frame window is 1/30th of a second, a 3 frame window is 1/20th of a second. But then, anyone at my arcade who can really play can also.
But don't you think that's kinda retarded that a fighting game that is supposed to prove skill and knowledge toward the game is to be reduced to random 50/50 mixups and random tools from both players that they can't prepare for with the only thing saving them is reflexes and luck?
The top players of every other fighting game uses their knowledge of their matchups, risks and rewards of attempting certain things, things they should not do and things they should, to prove they are the best. Why even have tourneys for a game if it's going to be random prediction? That's not winning by skill and knowledge, that's just blindly throwing out a rock and your enemy blindly threw out scissors.
Sure, now because of MKDA's horrible fighting system, the previous paragraph doesn't mean as much in terms of MK. Scorpion needing only 4 things to win is a flaw in MK, but tourneys being set up the way they are, are not. A test of skill and knowledge can only be applied when BOTH players play understanding every aspect of the game and manipulating those aspects to win, this includes their opposing matchup.
Just cause Scorpion was so retardedly easy and gay to play doesn't mean tournaments should reduce to Shujinko overall just to find skill. Honestly, if you were watching any other fighting game tournament; and everyone plays their best character. Then the final match, the best player gets bested by a random character he hasn't ever seen before, do you really REALLY think it's still fair or mean anything?
It's as if you got good in UMK3 and suddenly in the match that matters most, the finals, your opponent loads in MKT and uses fucking Goro or something and you've never seen his MKT moves or abilities. It doesn't matter how good his character is to yours, you don't know what he can do, but he knows what you can. That's not skill, knowledge, or anything. That's just reflexes with random guessing (for the guy not using Shujinko). If both players used Shujinko it's not even really a tournament anymore, it's a simple exhibition match. Imagine if both players did not know the capabilities of their opponent?
You throw out the understanding of the game, therefore the skill of good defense since you don't know what they're capable of, a good offense since you don't know what you can get punished by and what you should do, etc. The only thing you have left is reflexes and 50/50 mixup.
So you're about to beat your opponent who's been in say Shotokan the entire match and you've seen one special move. With Shotokan they've been mainly poking with say mids most of the match. Suddenly they switch to TKD and hits you with a low into their weapon chain that does 18% and you lost. Likewise they can switch and do an entire chain starting from mid and destroy you. Likewise they can use say 4 other special moves you don't know and win. That's not skill man, that's whack. That's not even a 50/50 mixup anymore.
That's like a 20/20/20/20/20 mixup where you only have 1/5th chance to defend and beat it right. What's worse is you don't even know what any of those 20/20/20/20/20 options look like and how much they can hurt you with, how far they reach and how safe they are.
Edit: Dang, sorry for the long rant guys.
The only way I can see a customizable Shujinko working in tournament level is if they had a versus screen that listed all of Shujinko's stances and moves. At least then you are testing your knowledge of how those stances and moves work, rather than blindly guessing.

VainQueur Wrote: I've said it before, I'll say it again: Shujinko is not that much of an issue anymore if you force players at tournaments to fight with more than one character (at least 5). In DA, rocking the shit out of your opponent with Scorpion, for example, doesn't prove much. The true skill lies in the mastery of all. VQ

The only reason MK Players have to resort to mastering a lot of characters in previous games is that mastering any individual character doesn't mean much in MK due to its system. With Deception, there is a chance that character specialists will be required. Looking at other fighting games, any character (or characters in team/tag games) specialists are ALWAYS better than the ones that don't specialize. This is because their games isn't simple/broken enough to just simply pick up the entire cast. In no other fighting game do you have players who can pick random and still compete at top level, in no other fighting game have players define skill as picking random so they can pick anyone on the select screen. I've played Baiken for over 2 years and I'm still learning new things and how to apply certain things better and deal with certain matchups better and how to adjust my playstyle based on the enemy's defense/weight better, that's what it means to have depth. If somehow I watched my opponents random to Baiken, they WOULD not be able to play her at her full potential or the +2 years that I have put into her. To me, they'd be scrubs, not skillful. MKDA doesn't have that, Scorp proved that black and white. But the fact that we have to substitute randomness in the form of Shujinko for depth is not skill at all.
In any good fighting game, mastering a character and facing against them IS NOT REGURGITATION. That's just silly dude, you don't see the same match ever in any good fighting game. True, MKDA was 50/50 with all the top tier characters, that is why it required no skill. The guy on defense was randomly deciding which height he should defend, the guy on offense was randomly deciding which height he should attack. But that's not how it is in other fighting games. It's SKILLFUL to pull of lows in 3d fighters, just as it is skillful to pull of highs in 2d fighters. Why? Because they are hella more risk and you need to setup and condition your opponent for it constantly. In those games, its like 80/20 mixup where most people will be pounding out the 80 option most of the time, but the 20 is needed or else the 80 could easily be defended by blocking/defending the way that option entails. In other fighting games, the only way you can get a 50/50 mixup is mainly if you grounded the opponent and its wakeup game and okizeme time or certain situations and staggers merit such. That is why it's so skillful to use your unsafe/slower/less damage options because you can set them INTO a 50/50 situation, thats the best thing you can ask for in a fighting game. But MK is constant 50/50 with their best characters/stances so you don't set them up into that, it's a constant 50/50 where the characters who do not have 50/50 normally are the weak ones.
I apologize again for editing and ranting on like a broken record, you guys can all freaking shoot me now. =P

wow, great response HD.. alot of valid points, you too TTT. Believe me i know what your saying on this one, i just cant help but disagree though. Bare with me on this, here comes the devil's advocate again.
When you guys compare using shujinko in a tourny to another tourny where you are forced to face a character you have never seen before, i think its an inaccurate comparison. Shujinko is not going to be able to use anything that you havent seen before. He's taking fighting stances/s.m's from the other characters in the game. As for what stances you will be up against, it wont be any surprise. They list the characters stances right next to his/her picture on the character select screen. The only thing you wont know at first would be what special moves shujinko will be using. As far as i am aware, he cant have more than say 4 sm's assigned to him. Unless MKD makes huge improvements in the fighting engine (yea right), s.m's are going to play just as big a role in this as they did in DA.. Do i need to remind you how many useful specials there were in DA, 2!!!!!!!!!!! Hellfire and puke... you can stretch it by saying either of the three ground pounds. And if that werent enough, a rule could always be put in place to reveal his specials before play. Last i checked you can view the command list before the round begins.. If a player insists on using Shujinko, make him show you how he's been customized.. End of argument right there.. No one is getting into something unexpected any more.
Putting a rule down like that is far more practical than Banning a character.. Banning part of a game is just ridiculous IMO. If you start by banning a character (customizable or not) where does it end.. next you have people banning the death traps cuz they are an inaccurate portrayal of who would of won the match. After that combo breakers because hell, you dont know when and which combo they are going to break... god forbid you cant see something coming , that would just be unfair in tourny play ::sarcasm:: Ban universal tracking and BDC's, those are glitches, they dont belong there. They're unfair too. LOL, let me know when i start sounding ridiculous because what im saying isnt to far from what your saying.. only a few months later after you guys make your rule of banning a character that appears on the select screen, you are going to get all the little bitches that have been losing demanding something else be banned.
Banning Shujinko.. I say no.. making it a rule to reveal how he's been customized.. now thats a rule.

RepTiLesTyLe Wrote: wow, great response HD.. alot of valid points, you too TTT. Believe me i know what your saying on this one, i just cant help but disagree though. Bare with me on this, here comes the devil's advocate again. When you guys compare using shujinko in a tourny to another tourny where you are forced to face a character you have never seen before, i think its an inaccurate comparison. Shujinko is not going to be able to use anything that you havent seen before. He's taking fighting stances/s.m's from the other characters in the game. As for what stances you will be up against, it wont be any surprise. They list the characters stances right next to his/her picture on the character select screen. The only thing you wont know at first would be what special moves shujinko will be using. As far as i am aware, he cant have more than say 4 sm's assigned to him. Unless MKD makes huge improvements in the fighting engine (yea right), s.m's are going to play just as big a role in this as they did in DA.. Do i need to remind you how many useful specials there were in DA, 2!!!!!!!!!!! Hellfire and puke... you can stretch it by saying either of the three ground pounds. And if that werent enough, a rule could always be put in place to reveal his specials before play. Last i checked you can view the command list before the round begins.. If a player insists on using Shujinko, make him show you how he's been customized.. End of argument right there.. No one is getting into something unexpected any more. Putting a rule down like that is far more practical than Banning a character.. Banning part of a game is just ridiculous IMO. If you start by banning a character (customizable or not) where does it end.. next you have people banning the death traps cuz they are an inaccurate portrayal of who would of won the match. After that combo breakers because hell, you dont know when and which combo they are going to break... god forbid you cant see something coming , that would just be unfair in tourny play ::sarcasm:: Ban universal tracking and BDC's, those are glitches, they dont belong there. They're unfair too. LOL, let me know when i start sounding ridiculous because what im saying isnt to far from what your saying.. only a few months later after you guys make your rule of banning a character that appears on the select screen, you are going to get all the little bitches that have been losing demanding something else be banned. Banning Shujinko.. I say no.. making it a rule to reveal how he's been customized.. now thats a rule.

Trust me when I say, I hate playermade rules, I think they're stupid. I remember one time I was playing SC2 with some scrubs at this community college I visited cause this one guy said his friend could own me and he told me "no throwing, throwing is no skill." And I was like wtf? I told him that if he couldn't handle breaking and fighting then he shouldn't play. We played and I tossed him and he got all mad and tried to throw me around 5 times in that 3/5 round match, only finally capturing me once which I broke. I proceeded to beat win against him for 10 matches straight before I left seeing how he was getting so puffed up and upset that I knew he was no longer level-headed enough to play. I told him to learn the game for what it is, player rules that they think make the game "honorable" is silly, there is no honor in fighting game competition besides perhaps not messing with your opponent's controls.
BUT, there are community bound things that are accepted in the past.
- Easy to set up and easy to execute infinites have been banned from many games at tournament level before.
- King of Fighters 2003: Was the first time an entire country, Korea the home of the best KoF Players & Tekken players decided to ban Duo Lon because he was so broke it wasn't even worth having competitions anymore. The Korea-wide tournament thus had no Duo Lon usage. (In previous years, secret boss characters were banned.)
- Soul Calibur 2: Necrid, Link, Heihachi, Spawn, etc. console exclusives.
So if a customizable Shujinko is banned across the entire community, we wouldn't be breaking new ground.
Breakers, juggles, etc. obviously cannot be banned because they are part of the core mechanics themselves so it wouldn't make sense to play the game or even have any competitions for it if we banned the game system, no matter how broke it is. However, banning one customizable character doesn't destroy the entire game.
As far as special moves, you forget some of the special moves made certain characters actually good/decent besides the ground pounds, hellfire, and puke. The biggest example probably being Telekinetic Slam which would allow any character to break 45% juggles easily. With all the easy knockback moves coming out and clone, I can't imagine how hiding your special moves won't be devastating.
Again imagine the scenario of fighting against a Shotokan with only puke shown. He fights with this the entire time and it's down to the final round, you only need one more hit to win, he needs 20-40%.
Random Scenarios:
1) You tell yourself that there is no way he can score 20% without using his puke which you are prepared to punish or without a juggle. You will win if you block high because Shotokan doesn't have any low options that could do that much. He quickly changes to TKD, does a low into weapon stance chain for 18%. Then when you're grounded he does ground pound which you've never seen before and when your character stands up, you're dead.
2) He change stances and you expect him to shift into a stand that has a low. Instead he launches you up and goes into a Telekinetic Slam loop for 45% damage. It's over.
3) He doesn't change stance at all and catches you with reptile/mileena's roll which you've NEVER seen. Then changes his stance to do #1 or #2.
4) You block and suddenly he pulls out a hellfire, an unblockable. He forces you into a guranteed 50/50 to do #1 or #2.
5) He throws you, you think it's fine since his stance doesn't do much damage. He goes into a telekinetic slam loop, it's over.
6) You attack him and he quickly clones. You didn't know you couldn't risk that attack, he juggles you and it's over.
Etc. etc. The worst part is the opponent CAN and WILL do this several times in the match until you are finally able to grasp what his character is fully capable of. By then, the match is over. So basically he has guranteed mixups and options you are constantly unaware of and therefore, cannot look out for intelligently, except hope that in blind like and on reflex that you will prevent yourself from being killed. To me, those situations don't sound like skill, just luck.
Now, if the stances and moves are revealed, that is only slightly better. A few problems here still. The obviously biggest one for most is that you are actually able to pause online and stop the entire game, which will throw people off if people started pausing resuming at several points. In a real tournament situation, it'll also be quite an annoyance for someone to read another's movelist during the game. Spectators will be like wtf, the one using the movelist will be like lets move along and the guy reading it will be like; wait let me think what this entails. Also, the thing with a character is that a character is made of the culmination of all of his moves and stances, not a single one. What may or may not be good/broke is entirely dependent on the entire package. Like Pi Gua with Scorpion was good due to hellfire of course.
This poses the question of whether one can really understand all the possibilities of mixing each up entails and really, they can't. If you look at a character like Necrid from SC2, the argument is that he uses everyone's moves so he isn't really new, but I mean look at him. He's banned entirely and he's hella broke with the shit he can do. Likewise Shujinko combos will lend to certain strategies or a character with no weakness, which is fine, except that even with knowing what his moves are; totally picking out in your head how they will be used a few seconds before the battle isn't exactly as sound as say fighting 200 sub-zero matches your entire MKD career helping you face sub-zero. Even though you are used to fighting say stance #1, you won't be used to the switch to a different stance #2. Likewise, if you are used to fighting stance X you aren't used to it being amped by special move Y.
But all in all, I suppose it really depends how customizable Shujinko really is. If he isn't customizable at all, then I welcome him. If he is customizable in everyway, oh well.
I really don't mind Shujinko being banned or not. Random battles at top-level tourneys that make everyone look like scrubs will be fun to laugh at =P and will probably make MK keep the same respect that it currently has in the fighting game community as a real fighter anyways. It'll be fun that there will never be consistently skilled players due to the randomness. =P
And if MK is really simple and we get to the point where we all use the same few builds of Shujinko, that will be just as fine with me. While my favorites are Sub-Zero, Kang, Raiden, etc. in the past, I really don't care what sprite I'm looking at. Shujinko vs Shujinko tourneys where no other char is used will be fun as well. This is because if there is full customization, there really is no reason to use ANY character in the game due to the fact that a Shujinko with the exact same moveset (for those that want it to emulate that character) is better than a default character because his/her moves are not revealed. Even if that's not the case and there are people that will try to be different, seeing the top 3 results of every tournament being:
1) XXX Name / Shujinko
2) XXX Name / Shujinko
3) XXX Name / Shujinko
Would be pretty funny.

WOW o_O
This is becoming a really great thread. Great points by everyone.
As far as we know, Shujinko cannot emulate any style that is not already possesed by another playable character in the game. This in itself, lessens the randomness of Shujinko as you can just look to the bottom of the screen and see his stance. But then comes a quick stance change into something you don't expect.
All in all, I agree with HD. If he is fully customizable with specials and fighting styles, then I want him nowhere near any tournaments.

HDTran Wrote: The only reason MK Players have to resort to mastering a lot of characters in previous games is that mastering any individual character doesn't mean much in MK due to its system. With Deception, there is a chance that character specialists will be required. Looking at other fighting games, any character (or characters in team/tag games) specialists are ALWAYS better than the ones that don't specialize. This is because their games isn't simple/broken enough to just simply pick up the entire cast. In no other fighting game do you have players who can pick random and still compete at top level, in no other fighting game have players define skill as picking random so they can pick anyone on the select screen. I've played Baiken for over 2 years and I'm still learning new things and how to apply certain things better and deal with certain matchups better and how to adjust my playstyle based on the enemy's defense/weight better, that's what it means to have depth. If somehow I watched my opponents random to Baiken, they WOULD not be able to play her at her full potential or the +2 years that I have put into her. To me, they'd be scrubs, not skillful. MKDA doesn't have that, Scorp proved that black and white. But the fact that we have to substitute randomness in the form of Shujinko for depth is not skill at all.

Personally I happen to like the idea that I can do random select all day long and be fairly confident that I can win against most players.
Of course, I admit that it takes less dedication, time and skill to master an MKDA character fully, but that's why the tourneys I played forced the participants to take *10 different* characters. That really sets the 'scrub' apart from the rest.

HDTran Wrote:In any good fighting game, mastering a character and facing against them IS NOT REGURGITATION. That's just silly dude, you don't see the same match ever in any good fighting game. True, MKDA was 50/50 with all the top tier characters, that is why it required no skill. The guy on defense was randomly deciding which height he should defend, the guy on offense was randomly deciding which height he should attack. But that's not how it is in other fighting games. It's SKILLFUL to pull of lows in 3d fighters, just as it is skillful to pull of highs in 2d fighters. Why? Because they are hella more risk and you need to setup and condition your opponent for it constantly. In those games, its like 80/20 mixup where most people will be pounding out the 80 option most of the time, but the 20 is needed or else the 80 could easily be defended by blocking/defending the way that option entails. In other fighting games, the only way you can get a 50/50 mixup is mainly if you grounded the opponent and its wakeup game and okizeme time or certain situations and staggers merit such. That is why it's so skillful to use your unsafe/slower/less damage options because you can set them INTO a 50/50 situation, thats the best thing you can ask for in a fighting game. But MK is constant 50/50 with their best characters/stances so you don't set them up into that, it's a constant 50/50 where the characters who do not have 50/50 normally are the weak ones. I apologize again for editing and ranting on like a broken record, you guys can all freaking shoot me now. =P

Although you made valid points about MK, Shujinko and whether or not to have any rules at tournaments, I still think that if you just make a simple agreement that Shujinko players tell the others what styles and special moves he has (like RS suggested), it shouldn't be much of a problem, ESPECIALLY when the tourney is set up so that every player has a minimum of 5 characters. Everyone is at liberty to pick Shujinko, btw.
I would agree though that in situations where you play with one character all day, Shujinko should not be used because he will always have the edge. Watching or playing Shujinko vs Shujinko matches all day long is not my idea of fun.
Cheers,
VQ

If we assume Shujinko is fully customizable with a 5-6 special move limit and 3 stances, he does have some major perks. Any character you wish to play, in Shujinko revised form, is bound to be better.
Example: Sub-Zero
Shotokan, Dragon, Kori Blade / Freeze, Clone / Juggle Throw
If you make a Shujinko version of Sub-Zero, you can gain 3-4 more special moves.
Example: Scorpion
Hapkido, Moifah, Mugai Ryu / Teleport, Hellfire, Spear, Flip / Normal Throw
In Shujinko version, Scorpion gains 1-2 more special moves and a throw that juggles since Shujinko's throw juggles. I'm sure most people would want to put Pi Gua back instead of Mugai Ryu or Moifah though. =P
But you see my point, Shujinko version is rarely going to have any case where he is entirely equal to another version of a character. Therefore, any character that you can pick is better in Shujinko form, with a fully customizable Shujinko, that means there is no reason to pick any normal character. Even if a normal character has a juggle throw and 5-6 specials, being Shujinko inherently gives the advantage of the opponent not knowing as well.
Given the ability to save multiple profiles, I can imagine people who have 5-10 Shujinkos built for tourney play. =P
Edit: Oh on the Random Select thing VQ, I know a lot of people enjoy it and all. But to me, I always get bored when someone does random select with me, especially back in my Alpha 3 days, cause I really only want to face a person's best character(s). To me, random select or the requirement to play different characters is inherently putting luck into a match when there need not be any. I'd rather face someone's best character and have someone face my best characters and see the outcome of that then anything less than that.
So what if someone is a master of only one character? I'd rather see them play their best and most familiar than many different ones, especially in a tournament setting because you're trying to find out who plays the best. What if one guy spent his entire time on say Subby and he owns everyone else with him BY A LOT (like rushdown destroying people level), but since he's devoted his time to be that great, he's only that great with Subby. Then you tell him he's only allowed to use him once in a tournament? To me that's kinda silly.

Properly customized, Shujinko will be broken no doubt. If he's going to be Heihachi in Soul Calibur II broken or worse, who knows. But unless Deception's engine is WAY beyond what DA's was then we all know it won't be the most balanced game to begin with so add on customizable characters and you've got thirty tourney entrants with Pi Gua, TKD, Clone, and Hellfire. Speaking of which...you know how they said you can have any combination of three styles you want? Like one hand to hand and two weapons or three hand to hand? How will Shujinko look with Baraka's blades?

HDTran Wrote: Edit: Oh on the Random Select thing VQ, I know a lot of people enjoy it and all. But to me, I always get bored when someone does random select with me, especially back in my Alpha 3 days, cause I really only want to face a person's best character(s). To me, random select or the requirement to play different characters is inherently putting luck into a match when there need not be any. I'd rather face someone's best character and have someone face my best characters and see the outcome of that then anything less than that. So what if someone is a master of only one character? I'd rather see them play their best and most familiar than many different ones, especially in a tournament setting because you're trying to find out who plays the best. What if one guy spent his entire time on say Subby and he owns everyone else with him BY A LOT (like rushdown destroying people level), but since he's devoted his time to be that great, he's only that great with Subby. Then you tell him he's only allowed to use him once in a tournament? To me that's kinda silly.

I notice these differences in opinion wrt fighting games with one of my brothers, too. He always picked a handful of characters he was very good with, but sucked at the rest. I tried to be good with everyone. On the plus side, I always had the element of surprise on my side, on the minus side, he usually beat my best characters with his. So naturally there was always much discussion between us who was best.
0f course, there will always be characters I won't like (eg. in Virtua Fighter I always hated playing as Shun Di), but I personally think that a level of specialisation with an MK character that really needs the player to focus only on that character is absurd, since most MK characters are not so complex and can only be played in one or two ways. So naturally any good MK player should at least have completely mastered 5-8 characters.
As for the Shujinko topic again, you're right that any customised Shujinko will have a tactical advantage, but doesn't that open the door to ban other characters because they're broken? Was Scorpion ever banned at DA tournaments? I'll give an example. My youngest brother (Deadhead) is a very, very good Cyrax player in DA but even against a moderately good Scorpion players, he's in deep shit. What does that say about his skills, or the game? Should Scorpion have been banned?
I guess this issue could be compared to whether or not infinites should be banned.
Cheers,
VQ

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Oh yeah, let Shinkhoojo play!!!!

^Your various avatars and sigs never cease to give me nightmares.
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Whether Scorpion should or shouldn't have been banned is a big debate which is luckily past us now. However, even if he wasn't banned, someone who was familiar with X character would still have a glimmer of a chance because they know what Scorpion can do and have faced him many times. Even if their character doesn't have a chance, the player is still knowledgable at how he should face him. In that respect, the player of the weaker character, chooses to go into battle with a weaker character knowing exactly how disadvantaged he/she is.
You don't get that with a customizable Shujinko cause you cannot measure one Shujinko to another. Honestly, I don't mind facing broke characters as long as I know what's broke about them, you know? Luckily I play more balanced games normally, bu twhen I don't, I don't mind there being weaker/stronger characters by far as long as you know their limits/setups/tricks/infinites.
As for the multiple character argument, you're perfectly right that there is no excuse really for any player who wants to get good at MK to not know multiple characters since the game is so simple/broke in some character's cases. But honestly, there will be people who specialize in one character and I don't think they should be considered newbie or scrubby, especially if they are kicking ass left and right. Ideally, if MK had more in terms of defensive manuevers, counterhitting, etc. you would want different characters to represent different types of play styles. Characters with huge speed and huge damage, but no defensive manuevers. Or character's that can counter/parry like hell like Aoi, etc. Those things would justify singling out on one character in MK, but there isn't really a reason for that yet. BUT still, character specialists will still make a difference in MKD, that I have no doubt. The more familiar you are with the handful or single character that you play, the better you are with staying calm and doing what you do in a high-level match. That's why we always get people that pull off some seriously crazy shit that you don't think is worth the risk in high-level play, but since they are so comfortable playing, they will be able to pull it off anyways.
I mean, this is a bad example, but every other fighting game; you won't have tournaments turning down the best players just cause they're only good with a few characters or even one character. Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Capcom vs SNK, Marvel vs Capcom, SF3, KoF, Alpha, Super Turbo, etc. all have great players and they only play 1 character or the same team consistently in tournament play. Afterall, tournaments is about winning and players will use whatever they're allowed to use to win and the tools that they are the most familiar with to win.
If that tool happens to be the randomness of customized Shujinko as well as the juggle throw, selectable stances and 5 special moves then so be it. Just saying that as the people who care most about competitive Mortal Kombat play right now, maybe we should prevent customizable Shujinko from being the only playable character when wanting to win. =P

being without power really suck ASS!! I swear if another Hurricane hits us, I'm moving up north.

New Jersey is the best place to live. No hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. Plus you get to breath the great air. AHHHH..cough.

Another thing: did anyone here consider possibilities for Kira, who seems to have both xing yi and Sonya's kiss?
How about 1,1,u+4,u+4,kiss and then a full style branch (if she has one)? Might be interesting.
VQ

VainQueur Wrote: Another thing: did anyone here consider possibilities for Kira, who seems to have both xing yi and Sonya's kiss? How about 1,1,u+4,u+4,kiss and then a full style branch (if she has one)? Might be interesting. VQ

Nah, damage reduction would be activated so it would do about 35-40% damage tops.
I think Kira will be an ok low mid tier character. Aint gonna see much of her in tourney play, but cats will use her just to show their skills vs top tier character, and/or if they have a perverted red head fetish like myself. word up.

Just saw the Sub-Zero vs. guy with the SC2 Yoshimitsu-esque flagstaffs (Don't remember his name).
Shotokan 1,2,3,b+2, b+2, 1,2,3,f+3 could be a really damaging combo if the percentages are fixed up to a balanced state.
On another note, the animation is still 50/50, as HDT puts it. *sighs*