Jigsaw Wrote: About the buttons: MKDA uses 7: Attacks 1-4, Block, Style change, and 'Special'. VF uses 3: Punch, Kick and Guard. Tekken uses 4: Left and right punch, left and right kick. Soul Calibur uses 4: Horizontal and Vertical slash, Kick and Guard. MK has the most buttons, but yet by far the smallest movelists. VF, Tekken, SC and even DOA manages to incorporate stuff like blocking, running, counters, multiple stances and throws despite their small amounts of buttons. I personally believe MKDA would've benefitted from using 2 or 3 buttons less... but even so, that's not the major issue. IMO, one of MKDA's faults is that the balance is really bad. Almost everyone's movelist largely consists of absolutely worthless stuff (do slow jabs without reach that do 2% damage ring any bells?), and then there's the occasional stupidly overpowered thing like counters, 'power ups', completely safe moves, etc. All moves need to have a purpose, and every character needs something to contend with. That's nothing new, that's basic fighting game theory. Furthermore, MKDA is in many aspects a turtlers dream. For anyone not familiar with the jargon, someone who 'turtles' is someone who consistently blocks, or possibly runs away, and little else. First of all, you can block EVERYTHING. Even THROWS. Overly defensive players are only punished in one way, and that's that blocked attacks still deal damage - but it's very minor. The only thing in the game that can break a block is the 'shove' move, which only a few characters have... and in my experience it's not of much use, as the player who gets shoved can start blocking again before you get a chance to attack. There are no SF/KOF style 'guard breaks', there are no Tekken style unblockable attacks, you can't throw someone who blocks, and you can't push them out of the arena for a ring out. So what the hell are you supposed to to? If it wasn't for the fact that there was block damage, you could just hit your opponent once and then sit there in a corner blocking, until you won by time over. But as it is, just sitting and blocking is still probably one of the best tactics, as someone foolish enough to keep attacking you will eventually leave himself open, and you can just nail him with a long combo, and go back to your precious blocking. There simply isn't any incentive for a player to actually attack. I don't claim to be an expert on game design - or fighting games in general for that matter - but I imagine that in a fighting game, you'd want to encourage offensive play. It's a 'fighting' game, and not a 'blocking' game, after all. :P Overly defensive play simply gets very boring, very quickly. If you manage to impale your opponent with your weapon, winning is a piece of cake. Just keep blocking and pay attention to when he tries to hit you with a low attack. Actually you could probably do a low crouch all day, as I'm not even sure if the game has overhead attacks (I could definitely be wrong about that, though). If you prefer to keep your distance, running away shouldn't be a problem either, as the only direction you can dash is BACKWARDS. And similarly to many basic attacks, jumping seems to be literally pointless. You can't start a combo with a jumping attack, jumping isn't an efficient way of avoiding being hit (projectiles will still nail you, for instance) and you can't jump over a sweep (or similar attack) to kick your opponent in the face, because if you were close enough to be hit by the sweep in the first place, you'd be jumping over the opponent and your attack would miss. Don't get me wrong - I'm not 'bashing' MKDA; I don't totally hate MKDA, or MK in general because its lack of depth or whatever. MKDA was in several ways a step in the right direction. However, there's a lot of things that needs taking care of before any serious fighting game players will give MK a second look, and to be frank, as long as people are oblivious to it, MK will never really improve. I might get flamed for this post, but I assure you - I don't mean to offend or insult anyone who enjoys MK (I do so myself), all I'm saying is that there's always room for improvement - and in the case of MKDA it's not very cramped - and I don't see how MK can have anything to lose by being improved. OK... this rant turned out alot longer than I had originally planned. I've never bothered to read much in the threads about improving MK, but I'm fairly certain what I've just talked about isn't new. I wouldn't consider myself an 'expert' player or anything like that though. I absolutely suck in all fighting games (except SF and KOF, where I'm only sub-par ;P), but I like to think that I recognize broken gameplay when I see it. I might very well have gotten some things wrong, but this is my experience of playing MKDA, and some things that I think need addressing.

I agree with this post.. If we dont talk about how to improve MK, then how will it improve?
It wont happen.

ImmortalKombatant Wrote: MKDA + Deception most likely, has too many buttons! SC has 4 buttons, so does VF and Tekken, and they all have deeper gameplay than MK.

Definitely get rid of the SM button, i don't think its useful at all, everything that it was used for could easily have been done using button combinations. especially that noone had moves that involved combinations in their move lists (that i can think of)

i'd really like to see the throw being done using 1+2 or F+1+2. Also with reversals (if they're still in there)

Jigsaw is really the only person who has made any sort of a point in this thread. DA's gameplay was far from perfect, but it was still fun. If we've seen anything from the Deception videos though, it's that the gameplay has been at least tweaked (if not more). The one thing that REALLY pissed me off in DA was how some characters had impales or reversals while others did not. That really bugged me, plus one hit guaranteed combos were shitty, but we know there are combo breakers in Deception.

MK is certainly not Soul Calibur, but hey it's coming along rather well. Faster gameplay, the combo breakers; give everyone a couple throws, either give everyone a reverse/impale or remove them completely, and toss in some unblockable moves and we'll be sitting pretty.

DoctorDrewX Wrote: Yes let's compare MK to the button mashers of today. Deception is looking to be the hottest fighter this year, so not calling it a "real fighter" is kind of an insult. No fighting game has ever been this expansive and elaborate.

Button mashers? Well, SC is uber masher friendly, but if you loose to mashers you suck. Other than that; usually "mashing" is a result stemming from a buffer system, which DA lacks. Buffering, being able to input another command durrig the recovery frames of another action - a move, dash, SS, etc - allowing you to execute that move imediatly after the previous one has finished recovering. Not sure about D, because those who have played it seam to not care enough to express weather or not it has a buffer system, which I highly doubt it does.

WTF do you mean by expansive and elaborate? A plethora of characters? Mini games? Well, the range of characters is a result of not having a deep properties system, since all moves have the same properties and relatively the same priority. So Midway covers that up with a shit load of characters who will all play relatively the same, knowing that 95% of everyone who players MKD will not know the difference. Mini games are a means by which to "strengthen" the MK world with bull shit gimmicks. Pulling a veil over the real problem that is gameplay.

The mini games wouldn't be so bad had the actual fighting system been...drastically, improved.

The_Truth Wrote: MK will end because it will be deep and have useful moves?

Yeah, dude, it's the newest fad to be handed a piece of shit and jock it with arbitrary and irrelevant reasoning.

CMETH Wrote: So anyone happy with the fighting engine is a MK fanboy now? Wow, the human race never stops to amaze me more and more. Also, it sometimes is a bad thing to compare two things. Would you compare your g/f to another girl? No, well hopefully not.

No, not at all, actually. Anyone who thinks MK is the greatest fighting game ever because it has the best gameplay and story/character development, expressing such opinion with haze, is a fanboy. Anyone who says VF/Tekken sucks with out any technical, systematic or objective explanation as to why they think that way, is a fanboy.

It depends, too. Like, if a dudes girlfriend was going down on another dude or just using them for their money/friends/resources or wtf ever else the poor sap has going for him, then I think a comparison may be in order, cowboy.

J-LocK Wrote: anyway, MKDA and MKD r like the best non-button mashing fighting games (well excluding soul calibur 2). and i don't get why everyone likes virtua fighter 4 so much. i bought VF4 evolution and it sucks. it's all based on reversals and throws and shit, that's fuckin gay. and the graphics are really bad. don't get me wrong, i really tried to like the game, i actually played it a lot cuz i read a couple of good reviews, but i didn't enjoy a minute of it. and none of my friends like it either.

SC is the most button masher friendly game ever made. It's scrub friendly, everyones knows that. It doesn't matter though, it has issues too, but that's not a biggie.

VF4 is NOT for everyone, I'll admit that. It's as hardcore as hardcore can be, which is prolly why only asians play it. The game is based on throws, which in and unto itself makes it "unique." The entire game is based on throw set up and throw psychology; body weight and priority, buffered throw escapes and tech traps. It's one of the few games that actually leaves you at a disadvantage on many of the attacks which HIT! 0_o

It sucking because it relies heavily on throws and reversals, making it ghey, is just another reason why so many arguments are void; simply because of their opend-ended, generalistic nature.

DMitch Wrote: I see many of you are complaining about the gameplay, saying that they should live all the fun games aside and concentrate on the fighing engine. However, I never saw anybody explaining what needs to improve. And turning MK into a different fighting game is the same as killing it, then we don't have MK.

Wholesome Goodness #1
Wholesome Goodness #2
I have absolutely no idea how improving MK's gameplay mechanics would kill it. The reason why many peeps don't give reasons how to fix shit is because we gave them a year ago But, meh...

Siduu101 Wrote: VF,Tekken and doa,they are all crappy games,those games are for tournaments not for home systems. They are cheap, they add like one or two characters every games while Mk add around six to seven, their characters are light like feader. MK characters are heavier when you look at how they move,they don't move like a plastic bag flying all over the arena like a cat and MK fighting system is great. Those games fighting system is silly,their fighting systems looks the same,it's as if there's one secret company making all three of them,one more thing,if you're on an mk site,don't bash it or your ass would get flame by me.

They suck because they're "tournament" games? o_0 Any game can be a tournament game. The reason you see other games in more tournaments is because they don't suck, they have depth and allow creativity during play. Communities help strengthen and develop tourney scenes; good games stay there.

Cheap? Aside from game altering glitches, there is no such thing as cheap. Cheap doesn't exist. You know why? Define cheap....you can't. It's a random adjective; it's meaning changes from player to player, situation to situation, skill level to skill level. It's simply a term used to describe a players inability to cope with a particular tactic, strategy, ect. In using the word "cheap" a player takes on no personal responsability for their faults and mistakes. They don't suck...the other player was “cheap.” Though, there are abusable strats, tactics, and moves.; but, you can get around anything. You simply need to know wtf you’re doing, and play risky.

Some bash, yes; some also want to see MK grow into a mature, deeper fighter. Doing so would not make MK like "another one of those." The aura and style of MK will always be it's own. I have always been pleased with much of the asthetic design decions MK has made, as have many others. That is not the issue. It is, has and always will be the lack of depth and gameplay that is the issue; unless voices are heard.

Flame all you want, voice your opinion, that's what this country is about. Just be sure there is a thought out point and reason behind it.

Jigsaw Wrote:

Sexy.

I don't agree totally on DA being a block fest though, well...yes and no...to an extent. You preasure with UT pokes and lows then BDc, turtle/space, then pressure agian. If your shit is consistantly blocked then you BDc and space a little, then work back in and just keep mixing shit up and UT into oblivion...really impressive shit right there, Midway... -_-

So yeah, turtling and playing catch-the-pussy is pretty much all thanks to BDc and a lack of move properties...really impressive shit right there, Midway... -_-

Oh, yeah, and Jigsaws post was sexy.

I don't want a block fest, give me a new reversal or even better parries any day, that reversal in DA was nasty, there were regular animation glitches in it and it stoped fights dead in their tracks.

From what I've seen the only reason MK hasn't become a button masher game is because of that nasty dial-a-combo system that won't allow you to do anything else, granted you won't get any bashers in it but it also gets rid of any of the creativity for combos

This whole thing with people thinking that making MK like Tekken, VF and SC is a load of crap, no-one has said anything about making MK a Tekken clone, just a better game with gameplay up to the standards of T, VF + SC.

Then when that has been done the main mode might have some replay value, just for the fact that it would be so good to play through, just like T, VF and SC are.

I always preferred Street Fighter's gameplay to any fighting gameplay because it actually has depth. Given its a 2D fighter, it's still better.

MKDA's dial-a-combo system allows a newbie to become an expert in a matter of days if not hours. This is NOT fair. New reversals, parries, offensive/defensive dashes and rolls are necessary.

The combo breaker is an excellent idea but in theory only, I'll have to see how it works in practice.

You'll never hear me say that Deadly Alliance was the PERFECT fighting game, because even God knows that thing was so far from it. To say that Midway is just adding tons of mini games and characters in order to cover up its poor gameplay, is pure and utter bias bullshit. We are talking about a game that 99% of us have never touched, and you dare insult the gameplay? You've never even played the damn thing? "Expansive and elaborate," yeah I said that to compliment the MK Team's efforts in trying to turn Mortal Kombat into something more than just a fighting game, something that the others are generally failing to tackle as of yet. I mean these mini games might end up kicking our asses, for all we know at this time. Believe me, I'll be the first one on my knees ready to pucker up if Deception launches and it is nothing more than a Deadly Alliance clone with a horde of characters and mini games to cover its shitty gameplay. But until October, I think it is extremely unfair for any of us to sit here and talk about "what if" scenarios, the possible improvement of this game, or any future installments.

The thing is Deception is using the same engine Deadly Alliance had, that's what gives a general idea to suggest ideas for Deception, because we know what to expect from it.

I'd like to see a new angle on projectiles, at the moment they still feel 2D being fired forward and all, I would like them to be used in one of two ways:-

Using them offensively, you can fire multiple projectiles in different directions, reducing the cheesyness of just side stepping them.

Or you could use them as blocking breakers, they can stun the opponent leaving them open for attack, for those awkward moments when there's hardly any time left, you need to cause a lot of damage and the opponent has resorted to making sure the health bars stay the same.

I'd have one or the other, to make them more important and useful, but not both, as that would resort to the abuse of them.

Nice touches like these would make sure MK would be turned into a real fighting game.



On the subject of making a fighting game more than just a fighting game, I don't like the idea in general, you already have games dedicated to each genre without having to make other games out of other genres.

The only exception I'd have for these kind of cross genres would be a good storyline, MK has the potential to become a good adventure or rpg because of its in-depth storyline.

Tekken also has the potential to become more and that is already being explored through Death by Degrees, which looks really good for a action game born of a fighting game series, a good storyline is set showing the past of Nina Williams, before she lost her memory.

What MK really needs is actual properties for their moves. I mean come on Midway!

does this count as spam? it did die 15 days ago

No, it's called searching for a topic, instead of making a new one, so there isn't 500 of the same topics.

comparing mk to sc, tekken, vf, or sf is like cmparing a 1967 shelby gt500 with a 427 sideoiler running 450 bhp to a custom honda civic with 300 bhp mk is unique (like the shelby) while to me all the other fighing games are exactly the same to me (like the civic) you cant try to compare them but there completely different beasts

OmG i hate ppl that make these threads that make no sense, wth r u talking about make Mk a real fighter, Mk is just fine how it is imo. If u want it to be more like Sc or Tekkan then just go play tekkan and stop bitching about Mk, its mk not sc so dont try to change it because i like the mk system alot more then sc. I like Sc but not was near as much as the mk system.

JoRdAnMaN Wrote: If u want it to be more like Sc or Tekkan then just go play tekkan and stop bitching about Mk.

We wont stop bitching if it can make a difference. And we dont want it to be an SC or Tekken clone, we just want it to have acceptable gameplay.

As for saying "just go play Tekken if you dont like MK", yes, we could do that, but we are still MK fans and want the game to be better. Why some people are complaining about the whole MKDA/MKD system is not to just bash it, its to spot out its weaknesses so that maybe those will get improved upon the next MK game...

I remember when MKDA first came out, my friends and I played it like hell. We had fun, but the matches would get repetitive and dull. Then, we got interested in other fighting games, and we tried SC, Tekken, DOA etc., and they were by far, to us casual gamers, superior. So we played those games and still do to these days. And when we try to pop in the MKDA disc, we are extremely disapointed.

I have a dream, that one day, the MK series will combine their awesome atmosphere with good gameplay, making it the ultimate fighting game.

Hell, just leave the fighting engine to Namco or Tecmo, because Midway obviously will never learn.