0
Just wanted to say that the first picture on here is gorgeous. Such a good depiction of her.
I know she's not going to make it, because realistically and rationally, they can't have too many people from Batman on the DC side....
but
if there is a sequel, hopefully she'll make it in. Either that or an appearance would at least be nice.
She's a very spicy character and has always been one of my favorites. I used to love her on the animated series years and years ago.
God I feel old.
I want to play with my Power Rangers. I still have all the originals.
I know she's not going to make it, because realistically and rationally, they can't have too many people from Batman on the DC side....
but
if there is a sequel, hopefully she'll make it in. Either that or an appearance would at least be nice.
She's a very spicy character and has always been one of my favorites. I used to love her on the animated series years and years ago.
God I feel old.
I want to play with my Power Rangers. I still have all the originals.
mkflegend Wrote:
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
Correction: Amazingly cool.
What are your thoughts regarding her special moves? Imagine the possibilities. As I’ve said more then enough times, I think plant powers and her style is something that suits MK nicely.
ProfesserAhnka Wrote:
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
mkflegend Wrote:
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
Yeah, I can also see the Joker fighting like a crazed bad-ass. He would actually be a great opponent against Mileena (for crazyness) or Sonya (justice).
Wanderer Wrote:
.....
.....
MINION Wrote:
.....
.....
Guys, do behave.
Is it really all that important to continue that argument?
Im sure MINION reads his stuff as much as you do Wanderer, and both of you have solid logics in your *original* posts. Leave it at that. No need for more.


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queve Wrote:
Guys, do behave.
Is it really all that important to continue that argument?
Im sure MINION reads his stuff as much as you do Wanderer, and both of you have solid logics in your *original* posts. Leave it at that.
Wanderer Wrote:
.....
.....
Guys, do behave.
Is it really all that important to continue that argument?
Im sure MINION reads his stuff as much as you do Wanderer, and both of you have solid logics in your *original* posts. Leave it at that.
I don't see the logic in justifying a person based on opinions. I simply stated Poison Ivy reminded me of Shang Tsung. Based on the way, I've seen her, use her, abilities. It was a opinion. He took it and blew it into proportions not needed in the first place. This tells me alot about his character, and that he can't stand to see anyone with opinion out wit him.
I don't like to cause drama if i don't have to. But this dude seriously has issues. He lives his life, from what i can tell. Like a comic book. That's not a REALITY...
I'm done here queve, no matter what's said after this post. It is your thread bro. My apologies for the massive sidetracking.
MINION Wrote:
I don't see the logic in justifying a person based on opinions.
I don't see the logic in justifying a person based on opinions.
I know, that was not right at all. That's why I said "original post", meaning his first post were he gave his reasons of why he didnt want Poison Ivy in the game (posted either here or on the locked thread, cant remember).
His later responce, the one you talked about, Im not justifying, at all.
Just wanted to clear that up man.
ActingArtist Wrote:
Just wanted to say that the first picture on here is gorgeous. Such a good depiction of her.
Just wanted to say that the first picture on here is gorgeous. Such a good depiction of her.
Its perfect isn’t it? I fell in love with it the first time I saw it. It’s a beautiful piece of art!
I know she's not going to make it, because realistically and rationally, they can't have too many people from Batman on the DC side....
Which sucks, considering Batman has the best and best known villains of the DC world.
but
if there is a sequel, hopefully she'll make it in. Either that or an appearance would at least be nice.
if there is a sequel, hopefully she'll make it in. Either that or an appearance would at least be nice.
If not in this game and a sequel is announced, Ivy is a must! I cant see how they wouldn’t add her in a sequel, specially considering how well known she is and her potential.
She's a very spicy character and has always been one of my favorites. I used to love her on the animated series years and years ago.
Mine too, and she rocked in those series. I really like the way they designed her as well, though she did disserve a more wicked outfit!
God I feel old.
I want to play with my Power Rangers. I still have all the originals.
I want to play with my Power Rangers. I still have all the originals.
LOL!
Keep your spirit young, that’s whats important.
MINION Wrote:
Even though I'm sticking to my earlier statement. I hope she's in for ya. I know having MM would be something i would want strongly as a fan.
Even though I'm sticking to my earlier statement. I hope she's in for ya. I know having MM would be something i would want strongly as a fan.
Haha, cool buddy, thanks!
I just hope I cleared my post up there for you ^^, regarding what I ment with his and your "original posts". Is that good?
Btw, MM...who are we talking about here? (not much of a DC fan as you can see)


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queve Wrote:
Btw, MM...who are we talking about here? (not much of a DC fan as you can see)
MINION Wrote:
Even though I'm sticking to my earlier statement. I hope she's in for ya. I know having MM would be something i would want strongly as a fan.
Even though I'm sticking to my earlier statement. I hope she's in for ya. I know having MM would be something i would want strongly as a fan.
Btw, MM...who are we talking about here? (not much of a DC fan as you can see)
Martian Manhunter.
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queve Wrote:
If not in this game and a sequel is announced, Ivy is a must! I cant see how they wouldn’t add her in a sequel, specially considering how well known she is and her potential.
If not in this game and a sequel is announced, Ivy is a must! I cant see how they wouldn’t add her in a sequel, specially considering how well known she is and her potential.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
- Throwing the odd punch in an occasional appearance does not change the fact that Poison Ivy is not a fighter.
- There's absolutely nothing intrinsic to Poison Ivy that connects with MK. [She is not a mystic.]
- One or two references to removed gimmicks, and abberations in the special moves, do not justify the spontaneous growth of monster vegetation in an MK game. They are abberations and explicitly removed from the conceits of MK games.
- Poison Ivy has very little relevance to be dragged into a plot revolving around the merging, or invasions, of MK & DC universes. She is not prominent enough or likely to be identified by villains with whom her motivations are opposed (or irrelevant), her powers are dwarfed by her apt contemporaries (from both sides), and her characterization is one of self-preservation more than interdimensional concern.
I'm not going to pretend it's a strictly black and white scenario, but to the question of whether or not Poison Ivy has any business being in the Mortal Kombat versus DC Universe fighting game, the answer is a simple - no.
A fighting game sequel? Not really. Cameo appearance in an adventure mode? Starting to at least make a case. Will it happen? It wouldn't be the worst decision made in an MK game.
- Throwing the odd punch in an occasional appearance does not change the fact that Poison Ivy is not a fighter.
- There's absolutely nothing intrinsic to Poison Ivy that connects with MK. [She is not a mystic.]
- One or two references to removed gimmicks, and abberations in the special moves, do not justify the spontaneous growth of monster vegetation in an MK game. They are abberations and explicitly removed from the conceits of MK games.
- Poison Ivy has very little relevance to be dragged into a plot revolving around the merging, or invasions, of MK & DC universes. She is not prominent enough or likely to be identified by villains with whom her motivations are opposed (or irrelevant), her powers are dwarfed by her apt contemporaries (from both sides), and her characterization is one of self-preservation more than interdimensional concern.
I'm not going to pretend it's a strictly black and white scenario, but to the question of whether or not Poison Ivy has any business being in the Mortal Kombat versus DC Universe fighting game, the answer is a simple - no.
A fighting game sequel? Not really. Cameo appearance in an adventure mode? Starting to at least make a case. Will it happen? It wouldn't be the worst decision made in an MK game.
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queve Wrote:
Mick: LOL. I get your point. But my opinion stands as firmly as yours.
Mick: LOL. I get your point. But my opinion stands as firmly as yours.
That's fine, as long as there are no illusions about it being devoid of fact.
By sheer coincidence, earlier I was flicking through an issue where Catwoman was beating the snot out of Poison Ivy. I'm sure it wouldn't end the discussion, but I'd love to do a YouTube montage of the countless times Ivy's vines have been snapped. Maybe to something by Enya?...
Oh, and Shang Tsung? Really?!...


0
MyQueenSindel Said:
MINION Wrote:
Similarties:
Poison Ivy: Has toxin in her lips, meaning she is able to literally kill with a kiss, or control her surroundings.
Shang Tsung: Has the ability to absorb souls, he can use them to make him self younger, or implent them into dead bodies to be used as a slave.
Poison Ivy: Has worked with a great mind, Harley Quinn.
Shang Tsung: Has worked with a powerful allie, Quan Chi.
Poision Ivy: Is great at being Manipulative, fooling people into doing what she wants, in return for something much greater.
Shang Tsung. Is also great at being Manipulative, hence his greed for the Amulet in the opening sequence of MKD.
Movie Similarities:
Shang Tsung: Had GORO by his side.
Poison Ivy: Had Bane by her side.
Is it sinking in yet?
And since you're such a smart smash, I do read ALOT of comics. I perfer the DOOM2099 comics aswell as The Martian Manhunter ones. And as of recent SKAAR, who was announced in the World War Hulk #5 Issue. Thank you very much!
Wanderer Wrote:
As I pointed out in the previous thread Poison Ivy doesn't traditionally have any sort of telepathic control over plants, and on top of that how the blue hell is that even remotely similar to Shang Tsung? Do you even read comics? Just by how you bring up Batman & Robin I have serious doubts that you've even picked one up.
MINION Wrote:
From a general standpoint, when you think of her abilities. You think of her as the female Shang Tsung of sorts. Not as in a sorceress or anything. But because of her ability to control plants, vines, etc... at such a high extent. She's very powerful in that aspect, which makes her a great character/villain.
From a general standpoint, when you think of her abilities. You think of her as the female Shang Tsung of sorts. Not as in a sorceress or anything. But because of her ability to control plants, vines, etc... at such a high extent. She's very powerful in that aspect, which makes her a great character/villain.
As I pointed out in the previous thread Poison Ivy doesn't traditionally have any sort of telepathic control over plants, and on top of that how the blue hell is that even remotely similar to Shang Tsung? Do you even read comics? Just by how you bring up Batman & Robin I have serious doubts that you've even picked one up.
Similarties:
Poison Ivy: Has toxin in her lips, meaning she is able to literally kill with a kiss, or control her surroundings.
Shang Tsung: Has the ability to absorb souls, he can use them to make him self younger, or implent them into dead bodies to be used as a slave.
Poison Ivy: Has worked with a great mind, Harley Quinn.
Shang Tsung: Has worked with a powerful allie, Quan Chi.
Poision Ivy: Is great at being Manipulative, fooling people into doing what she wants, in return for something much greater.
Shang Tsung. Is also great at being Manipulative, hence his greed for the Amulet in the opening sequence of MKD.
Movie Similarities:
Shang Tsung: Had GORO by his side.
Poison Ivy: Had Bane by her side.
Is it sinking in yet?
And since you're such a smart smash, I do read ALOT of comics. I perfer the DOOM2099 comics aswell as The Martian Manhunter ones. And as of recent SKAAR, who was announced in the World War Hulk #5 Issue. Thank you very much!
Hey everyone
ProfesserAhnka Wrote:
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
mkflegend Wrote:
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
guess who
Wanderer Wrote:
Then you don't read enough, especially considering the 2099 line has been retired for a long ass time. That is the worst comparison job I have ever seen between two characters. Using your same logic I could draw a conclusion between Toucan Sam and Woody Woodpecker that would paint them as mirror similarities. As a matter of fact, let's take a look between those two:
Toucan Sam:
- is a bird.
- is blue.
- partakes in whacky misadventures.
- mascot of Froot Loops.
- has three nephews.
Woody Woodpecker:
- is also a bird.
- is also blue.
- also partakes in whacky misadventures.
- starred in some commercials that advertised food products.
- doesn't have three nephews.
Man, the parallels are endless! You need to come up with better justification than "greedy villain who teams up with other villains." What was the point in even pointing out special powers that aren't even remotely similar?
MINION Wrote:
Poison Ivy: Has toxin in her lips, meaning she is able to literally kill with a kiss, or control her surroundings.
Shang Tsung: Has the ability to absorb souls, he can use them to make him self younger, or implent them into dead bodies to be used as a slave.
Poison Ivy: Has worked with a great mind, Harley Quinn.
Shang Tsung: Has worked with a powerful allie, Quan Chi.
Poision Ivy: Is great at being Manipulative, fooling people into doing what she wants, in return for something much greater.
Shang Tsung. Is also great at being Manipulative, hence his greed for the Amulet in the opening sequence of MKD.
Movie Similarities:
Shang Tsung: Had GORO by his side.
Poison Ivy: Had Bane by her side.
Is it sinking in yet?
And since you're such a smart smash, I do read ALOT of comics. I perfer the DOOM2099 comics aswell as The Martian Manhunter ones. And as of recent SKAAR, who was announced in the World War Hulk #5 Issue. Thank you very much!
Poison Ivy: Has toxin in her lips, meaning she is able to literally kill with a kiss, or control her surroundings.
Shang Tsung: Has the ability to absorb souls, he can use them to make him self younger, or implent them into dead bodies to be used as a slave.
Poison Ivy: Has worked with a great mind, Harley Quinn.
Shang Tsung: Has worked with a powerful allie, Quan Chi.
Poision Ivy: Is great at being Manipulative, fooling people into doing what she wants, in return for something much greater.
Shang Tsung. Is also great at being Manipulative, hence his greed for the Amulet in the opening sequence of MKD.
Movie Similarities:
Shang Tsung: Had GORO by his side.
Poison Ivy: Had Bane by her side.
Is it sinking in yet?
And since you're such a smart smash, I do read ALOT of comics. I perfer the DOOM2099 comics aswell as The Martian Manhunter ones. And as of recent SKAAR, who was announced in the World War Hulk #5 Issue. Thank you very much!
Then you don't read enough, especially considering the 2099 line has been retired for a long ass time. That is the worst comparison job I have ever seen between two characters. Using your same logic I could draw a conclusion between Toucan Sam and Woody Woodpecker that would paint them as mirror similarities. As a matter of fact, let's take a look between those two:
Toucan Sam:
- is a bird.
- is blue.
- partakes in whacky misadventures.
- mascot of Froot Loops.
- has three nephews.
Woody Woodpecker:
- is also a bird.
- is also blue.
- also partakes in whacky misadventures.
- starred in some commercials that advertised food products.
- doesn't have three nephews.
Man, the parallels are endless! You need to come up with better justification than "greedy villain who teams up with other villains." What was the point in even pointing out special powers that aren't even remotely similar?
I am.....
---------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
Queve, you're such a chulo.
----------------------------
My thoughts on Poison Ivy is that not only am I pissed off that she totally stole the idea for a character I hhad made up for my future fighting game..... but aside from DC totally plagiarizing a character that I am going to invent in sevceral years, I've always thought she was the only one gfit for MK.
When Is ee images of Flash or Superman fighting Sub-zEro, it jsut looks so...... stupid. Period.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK. I at least hope she looks good in the game..
we should make a thread regarding Prof. Ankhas sig.
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MyQueenSindel Wrote:
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
MyQueenSindel Said:
---------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
Queve, you're such a chulo.
----------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
---------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
Queve, you're such a chulo.
----------------------------
Lol, since you are currently friendly, in love, and all, do let me know what Chulo means? (Coincidentally, I’ve played a character named Chulo for a comedy theater play years ago, that brought back some awesome memories.
Btw, you seem to think something of me replying to so many in so little time.
My thoughts on Poison Ivy is that not only am I pissed off that she totally stole the idea for a character I hhad made up for my future fighting game..... but aside from DC totally plagiarizing a character that I am going to invent in sevceral years, I've always thought she was the only one gfit for MK.
LOL! I get what you mean. Its curious when that happens, isn’t it? Annoying as hell, but still kind of, well, weird.
Yes, I agree to see her as a more fitting character in the realm of Mk then a super man with a super name and a super cape.
When Is ee images of Flash or Superman fighting Sub-zEro, it jsut looks so...... stupid. Period.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK. I at least hope she looks good in the game..
we should make a thread regarding Prof. Ankhas sig.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK. I at least hope she looks good in the game..
we should make a thread regarding Prof. Ankhas sig.
Poison Ivy would look amazing, no doubt. That first pic of her really shows the diversity of her character. The ones below show a more traditional Ivy, bushy haired and very long sleek hair (my fave).
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
That's fine, as long as there are no illusions about it being devoid of fact.
By sheer coincidence, earlier I was flicking through an issue where Catwoman was beating the snot out of Poison Ivy. I'm sure it wouldn't end the discussion, but I'd love to do a YouTube montage of the countless times Ivy's vines have been snapped. Maybe to something by Enya?...
Oh, and Shang Tsung? Really?!...
queve Wrote:
Mick: LOL. I get your point. But my opinion stands as firmly as yours.
Mick: LOL. I get your point. But my opinion stands as firmly as yours.
That's fine, as long as there are no illusions about it being devoid of fact.
By sheer coincidence, earlier I was flicking through an issue where Catwoman was beating the snot out of Poison Ivy. I'm sure it wouldn't end the discussion, but I'd love to do a YouTube montage of the countless times Ivy's vines have been snapped. Maybe to something by Enya?...
Oh, and Shang Tsung? Really?!...
Such illusions of which you speak are not based on a constructed stereotyped model of impossibility or degenerated invention.
As for your last part...damn you are evil!
With that being said, what a waste would that be, that wouldn’t proof a thing nor give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
-_- .....What? Just because you dont agree?

0
I love Poison Ivy. Having her in the game would definitely be interestign but as others have started, she probably isn't the best of fighters. However, I was thinking that she could perhaps have her own fighting style developed based around the thorns and vines etc. that she loves.
What I'm thinking of is something like how Rose works in Street Fighter. She attacks using her robes so Ivy could perhaps attack with vines and thorns that are wrapped around her body. This could perhaps give her a slightly extra range in her attacks too. As a female, I assume she'd be pretty agile and so she could turn the whole thing into an art form filled with spins, twirls, flips etc. Come to think of it, Ivy could also in this respect play like Ivy in Soul Calibur with some long range moves like the whip sword Valentine.
Having said the above, she's probably not as iconic as many other characters in the DC universe and so will most likely be left out. I wager Catwoman would probably be in over her.
What I'm thinking of is something like how Rose works in Street Fighter. She attacks using her robes so Ivy could perhaps attack with vines and thorns that are wrapped around her body. This could perhaps give her a slightly extra range in her attacks too. As a female, I assume she'd be pretty agile and so she could turn the whole thing into an art form filled with spins, twirls, flips etc. Come to think of it, Ivy could also in this respect play like Ivy in Soul Calibur with some long range moves like the whip sword Valentine.
Having said the above, she's probably not as iconic as many other characters in the DC universe and so will most likely be left out. I wager Catwoman would probably be in over her.


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I wanted to reply to this in the other thread, but it seems the plug was pulled on it a while ago. But anyway...
One advantage Capcom has over MK is that in their versus franchises, story/accuracy means borderline nothing. So if they want Cyclops to shoot a laser with the circumference of ten sheep, they can do it with the slightest of conscience. So I could see why Ivy's non-martial arts characteristic would be a criticism, though I've been digging for a counter-examples with little success. The only character I can think of who qualifies MIGHT be Nitara (has a great visual design with a shitty story).
As for Swamp Thing, I'd say he's iconic, and I'd say he'd fit well into MK, but how far does he rank on popularity? He's definitely intriguing, but there have been more cries for Ivy than Swamp. I think if Swamp thing did make an appearance, fans would appreciate it in the long run, though I find the guy hard to look at.
Regarding the leafy bikini criterion... although that's a bad standard for roster choice there is a little bit of truth to it. Mortal Kombat has developed a pretty strict aesthetic since MKII. Artsy bombshell women are part of that aesthetic. Swamp thing fits the story aesthetic, but not the visual. Even the beastly characters like Goro and Kintaro are very clean in presentation. Very few characters have visual repulsion in their designs, and if they do, they are masked appropriately (Drahmin).
Meat is the only exception, but Meat's very existence should never be taken seriously. He was a joke character... who probably should not have been in MKA.
But just to be clear: visual sexuality may be one qualification for MK entrance, but I'll agree it's not high priority. Tits do not override relevance.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
That's actually why I brought up relevance rather than dwelling on Poison Ivy's viability in a classic MK engine that rests almost exclusively on differentiating fighters by their special moves. I'm doing my best to hold out hope for something more involving, along the lines of MKDA's fight mechanics -- but I digress (with naivite).
It's definitely a Capcom conceit to use a character like that.
As interesting as it might be in the name of versatility, MK generally demands a baseline capability of their fighters, and it would be an unnecessary removal from a character already teetering on the pinhead of the B-list.
For plantlife and a late eighties/early nineties environmental consciencousness, you'd get more love from a Swamp Thing. Unless, of course, leafy bikinis are your criteria for a good selection.
Swamp Thing's certainly 'iconic,' even if he isn't terribly recognisable in today's market, largely due to Vertigo segregation, but I'm getting dangerously close to conversation again, so I better pull back.
Where's Deathbearer? I've got some ideas I'd like to run by him for marketing... Npqkcz kejkge zji'p zenemre gsqaprm!
That's actually why I brought up relevance rather than dwelling on Poison Ivy's viability in a classic MK engine that rests almost exclusively on differentiating fighters by their special moves. I'm doing my best to hold out hope for something more involving, along the lines of MKDA's fight mechanics -- but I digress (with naivite).
It's definitely a Capcom conceit to use a character like that.
As interesting as it might be in the name of versatility, MK generally demands a baseline capability of their fighters, and it would be an unnecessary removal from a character already teetering on the pinhead of the B-list.
For plantlife and a late eighties/early nineties environmental consciencousness, you'd get more love from a Swamp Thing. Unless, of course, leafy bikinis are your criteria for a good selection.
Swamp Thing's certainly 'iconic,' even if he isn't terribly recognisable in today's market, largely due to Vertigo segregation, but I'm getting dangerously close to conversation again, so I better pull back.
Where's Deathbearer? I've got some ideas I'd like to run by him for marketing... Npqkcz kejkge zji'p zenemre gsqaprm!
One advantage Capcom has over MK is that in their versus franchises, story/accuracy means borderline nothing. So if they want Cyclops to shoot a laser with the circumference of ten sheep, they can do it with the slightest of conscience. So I could see why Ivy's non-martial arts characteristic would be a criticism, though I've been digging for a counter-examples with little success. The only character I can think of who qualifies MIGHT be Nitara (has a great visual design with a shitty story).
As for Swamp Thing, I'd say he's iconic, and I'd say he'd fit well into MK, but how far does he rank on popularity? He's definitely intriguing, but there have been more cries for Ivy than Swamp. I think if Swamp thing did make an appearance, fans would appreciate it in the long run, though I find the guy hard to look at.
Regarding the leafy bikini criterion... although that's a bad standard for roster choice there is a little bit of truth to it. Mortal Kombat has developed a pretty strict aesthetic since MKII. Artsy bombshell women are part of that aesthetic. Swamp thing fits the story aesthetic, but not the visual. Even the beastly characters like Goro and Kintaro are very clean in presentation. Very few characters have visual repulsion in their designs, and if they do, they are masked appropriately (Drahmin).
Meat is the only exception, but Meat's very existence should never be taken seriously. He was a joke character... who probably should not have been in MKA.
But just to be clear: visual sexuality may be one qualification for MK entrance, but I'll agree it's not high priority. Tits do not override relevance.


0
queve Wrote:
Chulo?
Lol, since you are currently friendly, in love, and all, do let me know what Chulo means? (Coincidentally, I’ve played a character named Chulo for a comedy theater play years ago, that brought back some awesome memories.
)
Btw, you seem to think something of me replying to so many in so little time.
LOL! I get what you mean. Its curious when that happens, isn’t it? Annoying as hell, but still kind of, well, weird.
Yes, I agree to see her as a more fitting character in the realm of Mk then a super man with a super name and a super cape.
Poison Ivy would look amazing, no doubt. That first pic of her really shows the diversity of her character. The ones below show a more traditional Ivy, bushy haired and very long sleek hair (my fave).
Such illusions of which you speak are not based on a constructed stereotyped model of impossibility or degenerated invention.
As for your last part...damn you are evil!
With that being said, what a waste would that be, that wouldn’t proof a thing nor give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
-_- .....What? Just because you dont agree?
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
MyQueenSindel Said:
---------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
Queve, you're such a chulo.
----------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
---------------------------
MyQueenSindel Said:
Queve, you're such a chulo.
----------------------------
Lol, since you are currently friendly, in love, and all, do let me know what Chulo means? (Coincidentally, I’ve played a character named Chulo for a comedy theater play years ago, that brought back some awesome memories.
Btw, you seem to think something of me replying to so many in so little time.
My thoughts on Poison Ivy is that not only am I pissed off that she totally stole the idea for a character I hhad made up for my future fighting game..... but aside from DC totally plagiarizing a character that I am going to invent in sevceral years, I've always thought she was the only one gfit for MK.
LOL! I get what you mean. Its curious when that happens, isn’t it? Annoying as hell, but still kind of, well, weird.
Yes, I agree to see her as a more fitting character in the realm of Mk then a super man with a super name and a super cape.
When Is ee images of Flash or Superman fighting Sub-zEro, it jsut looks so...... stupid. Period.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK. I at least hope she looks good in the game..
we should make a thread regarding Prof. Ankhas sig.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK. I at least hope she looks good in the game..
we should make a thread regarding Prof. Ankhas sig.
Poison Ivy would look amazing, no doubt. That first pic of her really shows the diversity of her character. The ones below show a more traditional Ivy, bushy haired and very long sleek hair (my fave).
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
That's fine, as long as there are no illusions about it being devoid of fact.
By sheer coincidence, earlier I was flicking through an issue where Catwoman was beating the snot out of Poison Ivy. I'm sure it wouldn't end the discussion, but I'd love to do a YouTube montage of the countless times Ivy's vines have been snapped. Maybe to something by Enya?...
Oh, and Shang Tsung? Really?!...
queve Wrote:
Mick: LOL. I get your point. But my opinion stands as firmly as yours.
Mick: LOL. I get your point. But my opinion stands as firmly as yours.
That's fine, as long as there are no illusions about it being devoid of fact.
By sheer coincidence, earlier I was flicking through an issue where Catwoman was beating the snot out of Poison Ivy. I'm sure it wouldn't end the discussion, but I'd love to do a YouTube montage of the countless times Ivy's vines have been snapped. Maybe to something by Enya?...
Oh, and Shang Tsung? Really?!...
Such illusions of which you speak are not based on a constructed stereotyped model of impossibility or degenerated invention.
As for your last part...damn you are evil!
With that being said, what a waste would that be, that wouldn’t proof a thing nor give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
-_- .....What? Just because you dont agree?
Well, since I'm not a master quoter like you, and I can't cut this all up without ruining the quote thingy, I'm just gonna respond here.
well first of all, Chulo means sexy guy in Spanish
and yes, it's irritating when you mention to someone, "Oh, I have this cool ass idea for a character! she does this andthis, and looks like this!"
"Dude, you just described poison ivy"
"Damn it"
And yeah, the first image is totally Ivy, maybe it because she looks most realistic, but yeah, the bushy hair gets me.
And you'll have to excuse me Mr. Lucifer, I forgot to explain why I felt that way...
The reason why I feel this way is because Mortal Kombat isn't a game about the traditional superheroes in capes and and colorufl underwear saving the damsel in distress, it's more along the lines of an individual who has similar type moves and projects them in different ways. The whole unique hairstyle, one-piece aerobic-looking outfit of Ivy's isn't a stranger to MK. Tights and capes and junk are new to the MK world. So when two people play Batman vs. Flash, and I'm watching this match take place, I'll feel like I'm somewhere else, but perhaps, Ivy vs. Batman can still give some MKishness to it.
Also, a character who uses plants and vines and such to control their opponent, that sounds like something MK could think of.
--------------------
So about this whole character stealing thing. I designed a character for this "fantasy fighting game" I'm making up.
I based her off aroma and poisons, and dressed her up plant like.
I gave her a green plant leotard one piece aerobic suit, long green gloves, and green boots covered in plant designs. For her hair, she has pure red, with two buns and long hair flowing underneath it.
Yeah, I just described Poison Ivy didn't I XD
So I made the outfit into a large one-piece with pants and gloves into sleeves, added thorns on the sleeves, and put two large roses where the pollen would come out in her attacks on the ends of her sleeves and pants. I gave her a long brown hair with a braid in front of her face.
There bitch >.>
tgrant Wrote:
I love Poison Ivy. Having her in the game would definitely be interestign but as others have started, she probably isn't the best of fighters. However, I was thinking that she could perhaps have her own fighting style developed based around the thorns and vines etc. that she loves.
What I'm thinking of is something like how Rose works in Street Fighter. She attacks using her robes so Ivy could perhaps attack with vines and thorns that are wrapped around her body. This could perhaps give her a slightly extra ranger in her attacks too. As a female, I assume she'd be pretty agile and so she could turn the whole thing into an art form filled with spins, twirls, flips etc. Come to think of it, Ivy could also in this respect play like Ivy in Soul Calibur with some long range moves like the whip sword Valentine.
Having said the above, she's probably not as iconic as many other characters in the DC universe and so will most likely be left out. I wager Catwoman would probably be in over her.
I love Poison Ivy. Having her in the game would definitely be interestign but as others have started, she probably isn't the best of fighters. However, I was thinking that she could perhaps have her own fighting style developed based around the thorns and vines etc. that she loves.
What I'm thinking of is something like how Rose works in Street Fighter. She attacks using her robes so Ivy could perhaps attack with vines and thorns that are wrapped around her body. This could perhaps give her a slightly extra ranger in her attacks too. As a female, I assume she'd be pretty agile and so she could turn the whole thing into an art form filled with spins, twirls, flips etc. Come to think of it, Ivy could also in this respect play like Ivy in Soul Calibur with some long range moves like the whip sword Valentine.
Having said the above, she's probably not as iconic as many other characters in the DC universe and so will most likely be left out. I wager Catwoman would probably be in over her.
That idea sounds excellent!
While I can see her fighting in the game without any special treatment (such as your awesome examples), it would definitely be unique and original to see them explore that kind of kombat style in at least one character. And even if that isn’t something that’s likely to be done, it can be implemented in combos such as when Mileena used her sais in MKU or Kitana her fans in MKU.
As more specific special moves, those ideas could also work extremely well.
And wow, an SC Ivy style of kombat would rock. Fans have actually hoped for an Ivy style of fighting style/weapon in MK during MKD.
TemperaryUserName Wrote:
I
I
Hey Temp, buddy, did you receive my PM? Just wondering because I recently wrote to you. Let me know. I hope the PM didn’t get lost, the system has been known to fail.
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
Well, since I'm not a master quoter like you, and I can't cut this all up without ruining the quote thingy, I'm just gonna respond here.
well first of all, Chulo means sexy guy in Spanish
Well, since I'm not a master quoter like you, and I can't cut this all up without ruining the quote thingy, I'm just gonna respond here.
well first of all, Chulo means sexy guy in Spanish
Ah, hehehe, cool. Em, Thanks.
The guy named Chulo I played was far from sexy though. He was an old brat. But I figured Chulo ment something along those lines, Im Spanish too, just in case.
BTW, I LOVE the current state of your sig right now! Hilarious!!!!
and yes, it's irritating when you mention to someone, "Oh, I have this cool ass idea for a character! she does this andthis, and looks like this!"
"Dude, you just described poison ivy"
"Damn it"
"Dude, you just described poison ivy"
"Damn it"
Horrible as well. It annoys me to no end.
And yeah, the first image is totally Ivy, maybe it because she looks most realistic, but yeah, the bushy hair gets me.
She looks wicked, mysterious, and hot.
So about this whole character stealing thing. I designed a character for this "fantasy fighting game" I'm making up.
I based her off aroma and poisons, and dressed her up plant like.
I gave her a green plant leotard one piece aerobic suit, long green gloves, and green boots covered in plant designs. For her hair, she has pure red, with two buns and long hair flowing underneath it.
Yeah, I just described Poison Ivy didn't I XD
So I made the outfit into a large one-piece with pants and gloves into sleeves, added thorns on the sleeves, and put two large roses where the pollen would come out in her attacks on the ends of her sleeves and pants. I gave her a long brown hair with a braid in front of her face.
There bitch >.>
I based her off aroma and poisons, and dressed her up plant like.
I gave her a green plant leotard one piece aerobic suit, long green gloves, and green boots covered in plant designs. For her hair, she has pure red, with two buns and long hair flowing underneath it.
Yeah, I just described Poison Ivy didn't I XD
So I made the outfit into a large one-piece with pants and gloves into sleeves, added thorns on the sleeves, and put two large roses where the pollen would come out in her attacks on the ends of her sleeves and pants. I gave her a long brown hair with a braid in front of her face.
There bitch >.>
LMAO!!!! Well, you got that off your chest. ^_^
Your concept was obviously very interesting, and the new one, though still kind of similar, sounds great as well!
Its such a shame you had to sacrifice the Red hair when its practically one of the best attributes of the character (as in visual).
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queve Wrote:
... give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
... give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
The very obvious difference being other villains - villains who are fighters - can usually last a few rounds. I'd hazard a guess that at lest ten percent of Ivy's forty-years of altercations end with a total and willing submission, once her weapons/pawns have been put down.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?...
-_- .....What? Just because you dont agree?
... Because there still hasn't been any reference to anything that actually makes her a "perfect" fit for MK. One-piece bikinis aren't exactly criteria unique to MK, and other than that, we're clutching at?...
TemperaryUserName Wrote:
One advantage Capcom has over MK is that in their versus franchises, story/accuracy means borderline nothing. So if they want Cyclops to shoot a laser with the circumference of ten sheep, they can do it with the slightest of conscience. So I could see why Ivy's non-martial arts characteristic would be a criticism, though I've been digging for a counter-examples with little success. The only character I can think of who qualifies MIGHT be Nitara (has a great visual design with a shitty story).
As for Swamp Thing, I'd say he's iconic, and I'd say he'd fit well into MK, but how far does he rank on popularity? He's definitely intriguing, but there have been more cries for Ivy than Swamp. I think if Swamp thing did make an appearance, fans would appreciate it in the long run, though I find the guy hard to look at.
Regarding the leafy bikini criterion... although that's a bad standard for roster choice there is a little bit of truth to it. Mortal Kombat has developed a pretty strict aesthetic since MKII. Artsy bombshell women are part of that aesthetic. Swamp thing fits the story aesthetic, but not the visual. Even the beastly characters like Goro and Kintaro are very clean in presentation. Very few characters have visual repulsion in their designs, and if they do, they are masked appropriately (Drahmin).
Meat is the only exception, but Meat's very existence should never be taken seriously. He was a joke character... who probably should not have been in MKA.
But just to be clear: visual sexuality may be one qualification for MK entrance, but I'll agree it's not high priority. Tits do not override relevance.
One advantage Capcom has over MK is that in their versus franchises, story/accuracy means borderline nothing. So if they want Cyclops to shoot a laser with the circumference of ten sheep, they can do it with the slightest of conscience. So I could see why Ivy's non-martial arts characteristic would be a criticism, though I've been digging for a counter-examples with little success. The only character I can think of who qualifies MIGHT be Nitara (has a great visual design with a shitty story).
As for Swamp Thing, I'd say he's iconic, and I'd say he'd fit well into MK, but how far does he rank on popularity? He's definitely intriguing, but there have been more cries for Ivy than Swamp. I think if Swamp thing did make an appearance, fans would appreciate it in the long run, though I find the guy hard to look at.
Regarding the leafy bikini criterion... although that's a bad standard for roster choice there is a little bit of truth to it. Mortal Kombat has developed a pretty strict aesthetic since MKII. Artsy bombshell women are part of that aesthetic. Swamp thing fits the story aesthetic, but not the visual. Even the beastly characters like Goro and Kintaro are very clean in presentation. Very few characters have visual repulsion in their designs, and if they do, they are masked appropriately (Drahmin).
Meat is the only exception, but Meat's very existence should never be taken seriously. He was a joke character... who probably should not have been in MKA.
But just to be clear: visual sexuality may be one qualification for MK entrance, but I'll agree it's not high priority. Tits do not override relevance.
Hard to disagree with any of this!
I think a lax approach to story was really only part of establishing a very broad approach to the Capcom games. It definitely broke the logics of even the traditional Street Fighter games, and was more conducive to disjointed characters and abilities than one could ever imagine of MK (or even SF). I don't think a woman with limited fighting skill spontaneously sprouting animated vegetation would be anywhere near as out of place as it could be in MK.
Incidentally, Capcom changed very little concerning Cyclops' mutant abilities (the flash kick is debatable!), but I don't think that really depends much on story.
Tweaking and shifting established qualities in a character is probably less concerning than the degree required for a character like Poison Ivy. The nature of the situation also really rules against characters not known for the strength or versatility of their offense.
Nine times out of ten Poison Ivy's fighting on her home turf, not particularly inclined to carry an enterage of plantlife -- which is why she makes a lot more sense as an action/adventure sub-boss in a deliberate locale.
It's definitely fair to say Swamp Thing's days as a mainstream icon are a bit behind him, but it's undeniable that he's an iconic representation of that type of hero. You make some interesting points about the asthetic cohesion of the character, but ultimately I think he represents the kind of things we probably already assume exist somewhere in Outworld, or the like. That in-built logic and macabre quality of a monstrous environemtal defender you alluded to certainly asks less for acception than Ivy, and obviously trumps the debate about the uniqueness of a floronic character.
Great, well considered remarks! Cheers!


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Actually I think Havik should fight the joker, I mean that is a perfect match.
0
ProfesserAhnka Wrote:
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
mkflegend Wrote:
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
Well, I wouldn't say "all DC people" a lot of DC characters can fight, just not PE in this sense....even Joker too, but I'd bet he'd put up a better fight then PE any day honestly.
Besides, so far we don't even know if Joker is confirmed yet. I'd rather see Lex honestly but we'll see. PE would get owned by most MK characters, I'd rather see someone like Bane or Doomsday, now there's a good challenge.
Not a big DC fan and don't know much about the DC characters, but from what I do know, Poison Ivy is definitely up there with the characters I like the most - she might even top the list, unimpressive as that list may be
I'd love for her to be included as a playable character, mostly due to her awesome look and the incredible ways they could go with her special moves. They'd definitely look awesome - her fatalities/finishers even more! I haven't read every single post in the thread, but I guess one of the things that might stop her from being included in her fighting abilities. Does she fight much, or just rely on her powers to get out of sticky situations and defend herself?
But there's even methods one could use to get around her maybe lacking as much skill as some other fighters. She's still got great powers, so why not have her use those and rely on those in place of the ol' kicks and punches? Have her sprout a whipping vine from the floor instead of a low kick or sweep, have it extend from her costume in place of a punch, have her combos consist of such. It would look cool, would make her unique among the rest of the cast, and I honestly think if done well, could work.
I'd love for her to be included as a playable character, mostly due to her awesome look and the incredible ways they could go with her special moves. They'd definitely look awesome - her fatalities/finishers even more! I haven't read every single post in the thread, but I guess one of the things that might stop her from being included in her fighting abilities. Does she fight much, or just rely on her powers to get out of sticky situations and defend herself?
But there's even methods one could use to get around her maybe lacking as much skill as some other fighters. She's still got great powers, so why not have her use those and rely on those in place of the ol' kicks and punches? Have her sprout a whipping vine from the floor instead of a low kick or sweep, have it extend from her costume in place of a punch, have her combos consist of such. It would look cool, would make her unique among the rest of the cast, and I honestly think if done well, could work.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
The very obvious difference being other villains - villains who are fighters - can usually last a few rounds. I'd hazard a guess that at lest ten percent of Ivy's forty-years of altercations end with a total and willing submission, once her weapons/pawns have been put down.
queve Wrote:...-_- .....What? Just because you dont agree?
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:... Because there still hasn't been any reference to anything that actually makes her a "perfect" fit for MK. One-piece bikinis aren't exactly criteria unique to MK, and other than that, we're clutching at?...
queve Wrote:
... give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
... give any of the validity your first posts give to your thoughts, specially considering all the villains get their as*es handled by the others in due time.
The very obvious difference being other villains - villains who are fighters - can usually last a few rounds. I'd hazard a guess that at lest ten percent of Ivy's forty-years of altercations end with a total and willing submission, once her weapons/pawns have been put down.
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?
MyQueenSindel Wrote:
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
But PI is the only one who I feel fits in MK.
Has anyone actually come up with anything resembling a reason for that?
queve Wrote:...-_- .....What? Just because you dont agree?
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:... Because there still hasn't been any reference to anything that actually makes her a "perfect" fit for MK. One-piece bikinis aren't exactly criteria unique to MK, and other than that, we're clutching at?...
There’s a very obvious difference between there not being a reference, and between you not agreeing with the references made. ^_^
danadbab Wrote:
id like to see her in the game, however i cant see the MK team turning her into a believable fighter. if Namco was doing it they prolly could, using some of Tgrants & others good ideas.
id like to see her in the game, however i cant see the MK team turning her into a believable fighter. if Namco was doing it they prolly could, using some of Tgrants & others good ideas.
I agree that the possibilities of the team screwing her aren’t impossible, but who knows, it could be worth a try to add something new. I actually trust they could make her a decent fighter employing her powers as regular attacks, but that bit isn’t even necessary, as they could also simply be implemented as special moves.
ProfesserAhnka Wrote:
Actually I think Havik should fight the joker, I mean that is a perfect match.
Actually I think Havik should fight the joker, I mean that is a perfect match.
?
Well, now that you are on it, the Joker would also rock as a fighter, but Im guessing other more iconic characters could be a good match for him, though I see why you ‘d said Havik would be perfect for him.
mkflegend Wrote:
Well, I wouldn't say "all DC people" a lot of DC characters can fight, just not PE in this sense....even Joker too, but I'd bet he'd put up a better fight then PE any day honestly.
Besides, so far we don't even know if Joker is confirmed yet. I'd rather see Lex honestly but we'll see. PE would get owned by most MK characters, I'd rather see someone like Bane or Doomsday, now there's a good challenge.
ProfesserAhnka Wrote:
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
mkflegend Wrote:
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
I can see her maybe being in MK, I wouldn't mind. She's not much of a "bigtime fighter" though but she's cool
lol thats the problem with all the DC people. I can't really imagin the Joker fighting. But midway can pull it off. I can imagin Poison Ivy fighting Sub ect but only if she looks like she do in that first pic.
Well, I wouldn't say "all DC people" a lot of DC characters can fight, just not PE in this sense....even Joker too, but I'd bet he'd put up a better fight then PE any day honestly.
Besides, so far we don't even know if Joker is confirmed yet. I'd rather see Lex honestly but we'll see. PE would get owned by most MK characters, I'd rather see someone like Bane or Doomsday, now there's a good challenge.
PE????? Or do you actually meant to say PI?
Either way, she would kick your a*$ any second.
LeoBrZ81 Wrote:
Not a big DC fan and don't know much about the DC characters, but from what I do know, Poison Ivy is definitely up there with the characters I like the most - she might even top the list, unimpressive as that list may be
I'd love for her to be included as a playable character, mostly due to her awesome look and the incredible ways they could go with her special moves. They'd definitely look awesome - her fatalities/finishers even more!
Not a big DC fan and don't know much about the DC characters, but from what I do know, Poison Ivy is definitely up there with the characters I like the most - she might even top the list, unimpressive as that list may be
I'd love for her to be included as a playable character, mostly due to her awesome look and the incredible ways they could go with her special moves. They'd definitely look awesome - her fatalities/finishers even more!
Agreed.
You know, I hadn’t thought about her Fatalities for some reason, O_O, they would rock! And considering the T nature of this game, despite not being “extremely bloody”, they would still be fantastic to watch. A gigantic carnivore flower plant chewing a helpless victim that slowly dies in agony would be fantastic.
Or the sudden torture of plenty of vines filled with thorns. Mutilations would rock, but...its not an M game...for the moment.
I haven't read every single post in the thread, but I guess one of the things that might stop her from being included in her fighting abilities. Does she fight much, or just rely on her powers to get out of sticky situations and defend herself?
She relies mostly on her powers (amazing powers I must add), but she is known to be able to fight. She isn’t at martial artist level though, just a decent fighter who can and has kicked a**.
But there's even methods one could use to get around her maybe lacking as much skill as some other fighters. She's still got great powers, so why not have her use those and rely on those in place of the ol' kicks and punches?
Exactly.
My, the wonders she could do! I can just imagine rotating vines around her and other plant attacks that would look jaw-dropping in this next-gen installment.
Have her sprout a whipping vine from the floor instead of a low kick or sweep, have it extend from her costume in place of a punch, have her combos consist of such. It would look cool, would make her unique among the rest of the cast, and I honestly think if done well, could work.
Absolutely. The thing is, making her rely on her plant powers 100% as a kombat technique *would* be “difficult for the team” considering its new and has never been done before, but not impossible. I say give her that style but to some extent, like when characters like Mileena, Kitana and Scorpion did combos and suddenly took out their weapons as part of the combo for MKU.
Making her a fighter wouldn’t cost nothing at all or take any credibility from her character considering she can fight. She is not really known for her fighting, but that doesn’t stop her from being a great fighter for this game, just like it doesn’t need to stop an iconic character such as the Joker.
MINION Wrote:
I hope joker makes it. I don't talk about him much, but i love the character.
I hope joker makes it. I don't talk about him much, but i love the character.
I do too. He would be wicked. And I can just picture the render...*shivers*...scary! He is just like Poison Ivy in the fighting department, but he too can work well and he has shown to be able to fight.
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