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Should women ever make the first move?
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posted06/29/2012 02:34 AM (UTC)by
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DG1OA
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06/15/2011 08:07 PM (UTC)
I'm talking about heterosexual relationships, though that should be pretty clear.

The insistence that men should always take the first steps is another thing about society that annoys me. I'll admit that I do not have the easiest time approaching girls, but I do not believe it's the problem, at least not all of it.

Rather, I believe it's because it's still not entirely socially acceptable for girls to chase guys. Plenty of gals of my liking have shown an interest in me, but very few dared to try and talk to me. In some cases it must have been shyness, in others they already had someone, and in others both, but I'm pretty sure that many just wouldn't risk going against social expectations, which is that the man must always make the first step.

I love beautiful gals that chase the guys they want. I want a woman that does what she can to be worthy of me, instead of one that expects me to take care of everything, a macho loser's wet dream basically. I want an equal.

I know what some might ask, am I also willing to prove myself worthy of her? I've never been in a relationship, so I won't jump to conclusions as to how I'd handle it, but ideally of course I'd want her as satisfied as me. And I have taken approached a girl before, twice actually, though no relationship came of it. Why it didn't work out though, is another story entirely, but still, I've proven myself capable of taking the first steps.

I'm not asking for a total reversal of gender roles where it's the woman that takes care of nearly everything, including making the first move.But I fear that as a guy, taking the first step is helping enforce that tired macho ideal. That even though it's macho, it can also benefit useless cunts who feel men must always prove worthy of them, while they have little to do in return save being pretty and/or good in bed (the latter especially). Which isn't to say all girls that wait for a man are like that, just that this social expectation greatly help those who are.

So, your opinion?
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raidenthefridge
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Thanks to MINION for taking my Siginity!

•04/15/2012 03:52 PM (UTC) •
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Yea, for me its a huge turn on when they do.
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(Erik)
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 •04/15/2012 04:03 PM (UTC) •
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I don't even understand this topic. Maybe I have the privilege of coming from a liberated country or something, but many women in my life have made the first move and I have loved that. I don't think you should sit there and give women permission on what they can or can not do. The gender of the person who initiates the first move is going to differ in every case, because the meeting of two potential lovebirds is unique between every combination of people.
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m0s3pH
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 •04/15/2012 04:17 PM (UTC) •
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All the wrong women make the first move on me, lol.
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KungLaodoesntsuck
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 •04/15/2012 04:22 PM (UTC) •
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I think it could go either way. To me it doesn't matter who goes first, just as long as someone does. I made the first move before and someone has made a move on me.

When I made a move I was nervous, but I really enjoyed making the girl feel wanted and desired.

When a girl made a move on me I was flattered. That someone actually took an interest in me. (Especially at the time because I had dangerously low self esteem) So she really made me feel good about myself. Like I was good enough for other people.

All in all, I really don't think it matters who makes the first move. I also don't believe in "Men always having to make the first move because it's the social norm". Personally I think that's a bunch of shit. Never once have I even HEARD of that. Women should make a move too. Besides if you like someone that much, it won't matter who makes the first move. But that's just my opinion.
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Zmoke
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 •04/15/2012 04:42 PM (UTC) •
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A woman once did an enhanced special move to me, it was cruel. Another night, a woman X-rayed me. Oh, but that was the doctor. Silly me.
Women do it less because they have less balls. USA is not that liberated though, in all its goodness, but all western countries are developed in the equality between women and men. Although, the genders are not exactly equal (they could be thought more equal than they're currently). Women get pregnant, men go to the military. Women live longer on average.

I'm humbled when a woman does that to me, but you guys need to realize: not all people here get that attention. What if DG1OA is Quasimodo? Just kidding, he is gorgeous. Just saying. To me, women are justified to do that. There is a strong difference between men and women getting laid – a man gets laid just by asking an unknown woman with a 1% likelihood, whereas a woman gets laid just by asking with an 80% likelihood.
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Mojo6
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 •04/15/2012 06:29 PM (UTC) •
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You sound bitter OP. Here's the deal...women like confidence, and women like being desired so if she's throwing you some subtle signals...that IS her way of making the first move. So, why not give it a shot and ask for her number?
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DG1OA
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 •04/15/2012 11:09 PM (UTC) •
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Men are this, women are that. The nonsensical belief that the so called behavioral differences between the genders are anything other than social conditioning. So funny, and sad at the same time, to hear people say "women don't do this" as though women will inherently not do certain things, such as asking a guy out. Nope, nothing to do with upbringing.

What if I like confidence in my women? What if I like being chased? Why should I be denied? Why exactly am I the one who's supposed to ask a gal out? I might not find the thought of doing that annoying if it wasn't for the fact that I'm expected to do it purely because I'm a guy. Nothing else. I'm the guy, so I make the first step. We must preserve the status quo after all.

Why are women entitled not to approach men, exactly? Beyond little signals that essentially say "Impress me. You're the one with something to prove even though I do want you". If there was a valid reason for the men and the men alone to be doing it, then I'd accept it. There isn't.

But hey, who am I to question those little rules. Men are supposed to chase women. Why, well they're men. Nothing else. Gender inherently define one's identity, after all. Again, absolutely nothing to do with nurture.
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Dibula
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 •04/16/2012 02:03 AM (UTC) •
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All people have feelings and attraction. Following some dumbfuck tradition will do nothing but have to make the rest of the world listen to so many females bitch about "why doesn't he liiike meee D:"

Our time here is short. I don't care who you are or what gender you were born with. If you like someone, tell them. Most of the time, things wont just fall into your lap.
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Mojo6
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 •04/16/2012 02:29 AM (UTC) •
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Obviously there are societal gender roles/identities inherent in our (and any culture) but to sit back and be bitter about it sounds more like finding a way to rationalize your isolationism than a way to lead to actually meeting someone you have a connection with. You're failing to acknowledge that personal insecurity plays a significant part of what prevents people from "making the first move" in general thus what I meant by being confident. That's also a product of age/maturity. It's not about being "macho" it's about being true to yourself and willing to take a shot at someone you're interested in.

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Kabal20
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 •04/16/2012 03:51 AM (UTC) •
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I definitely understand where your coming from. It definitely sucks for quiet/shy guys, but I can also understand why women would be hesitant to make the first move out of being labeled easy if there chasing guys. The thing is that some women are so dam hard to read, they don't give you a clue about how they feel and it makes it hard for guys to judge what to do. I definitely feel this about the current girl I'm crushing on. I had mentioned about her in another topic I made about general dating advice.

I don't think women should be chasing guys and asking them out, but they really should be more straight forward about how they feel towards guys IMO.

Having watched a video a few months ago about evolution for a Biology class and the whole dating social norm is on its head IMO. Just think back to Victorian England where guys basically dictated who women where going to marry. Now a days women are the ones who choose who they are going to date and go out with, yet its the guys who have to go through asking the girl out and facing rejection over it with not a whole lot of straight forwardness on the women's part.
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Dibula
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 •04/16/2012 07:31 AM (UTC) •
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It has nothing to do with being macho. Sure, insecurity plays a role in confidence levels, asking people out, etc, but that is no excuse. You can try to justify this behavior with strong social traditions, but that point is moot. Everyone has insecurties, and the potential to rise above them. Also, if you just tried to call me an isolationist, then you are ignorant. Forgive me for sounding a bit conceited, but I have been with enough women to speak out of first hand knowledge that shit typically doesn't just happen when it comes to finding a partner. Women can make the first move, and should if they are interested and want it to be known. Any other logic falls upon either their own insecurity, or their foolish expectations that match an outdated tradition.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to point out, but it seems to really have nothing to do with the subject matter.

Please, spare me the quick educational tutorial on the typical female attraction to confidence. That form of attraction is mutual to both genders. The point here is that if a woman wants to try her hand at making the first move, she shouldn't let idiotic social standards stop her.
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Mojo6
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 •04/16/2012 08:58 AM (UTC) •
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My last post was directed at the OP dibula so no, I wasn't referring to you at all actually. My entire point is that while societal gender role archetypes certainly contribute to the ideology of "letting the man make the first move", often there are other more personal significant influences that would cause hesitation. Of course women can "make the first move", I'm not implying that they can't. My posts have all been addressing the tendency of the OP to point out "societies failings" in justifying his reservation to approach someone he's theoretically interested in.
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Dibula
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 •04/16/2012 10:23 AM (UTC) •
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Ahh, forgive me for jumping to conclusions. Your first post was rather simple, and your next was more heated...right after my post. I thought it was directed towards me. Sorry if I came off as a prick.
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Zentile
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 •04/16/2012 10:54 AM (UTC) •
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Should women be allowed to vote?
Should women be elligible to be president?
Should women be allowed to leave the kitchen?
Should women ever make the first move?
Obviously yes.
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(Erik)
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 •04/16/2012 12:16 PM (UTC) •
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For the people who are having trouble, what I think I see is laziness. They want the woman to do all of the work to get the relationship off of the ground, and then they want to reap the benefits. I don't just want to generalize. But if you want someone's attention then go for it before some other guy distracts her first by making the move you should have already made.
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Icebaby
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 •04/16/2012 03:36 PM (UTC) •
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I didn't make the first move in my relationship, but I've done a lot of other first moves during our relationship that's made things a lot better.

Honestly, in my opinion, I don't see what matter it makes who makes the first move. As long as someone made a move and it's moving smoothly, that counts.

Of course, not everyone thinks this way.
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DG1OA
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 •04/16/2012 06:33 PM (UTC) •
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I love how those that point out my supposed insecurities in approaching girls act as if girls who expect guys to make the first move aren't insecure themselves. No, of course they're not insecure, they could easily approach a guy themselves, they'd know exactly what to say and what to do. They just choose not to.

At least, that's what plenty of people from both genders believe.

So, why is it that women who stand around around waiting for their prince in shining armor aren't lazy? What exactly doesn't make them the ones expecting guys to do everything? Why aren't they the ones expecting to reap all the benefits?

Oh right, they're women. They can afford to be useless. Hell, machos want them to be almost totally useless. It makes them feel so strong and so manly. And some of these women couldn't be happier, as they don't have to do much to please their men.

And again, I'm not expecting the women to do everything for me. I wouldn't want to be too dependent on her, after all. But in the world we live in, a gal chasing me, and me enjoying it, is pretty much an act of defiance against a still pretty macho culture.

If the genders truly were equal socially speaking, I wouldn't care about guys taking the first step. Some guys like to chase women, while I like being chased by them. Same for women. But that's not how it is, sadly.

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Mojo6
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 •04/16/2012 07:17 PM (UTC) •
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You're missing my point. Girls (especially at your age OP as you sound like a teen) CAN and DO "make the first move". Maybe less so than a more mature woman but it still happens. My entire point about insecurities was that women (girls especially) can have issues with rejection that might prevent them from acting more boldly by asking a guy out. It does happen though.

You'd be better served conspiring on the internet less and asking out whatever girl you're crushing on.

People can rage all they want about heterosexual hypocritical dating double standards but really... there are so many more severe and prominent societal issues that happen daily that it makes this whole conversation seem petty.
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Icebaby
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 •04/16/2012 09:05 PM (UTC) •
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I agree with Mojo. Not every woman in this world has the strength to go up to a guy and say "date me, I want you." No, why? It's not because they choose not to, maybe it's because of rejection, fear of being mocked, or other reasons that's not due to pure laziness.

I can sit here and tell you that back in high school, I had a crush on this really awesome guy that I thought would be a nice guy to date. What happens? I tell him, "You know, I really like you, we've hanged out a few times before, want to go out on a nice dinner date?" What happens next? He rejects the offer. (found out, he rejected it because he refused to deal with my medical issue) That really crushed me and I refused to ask out a guy myself since then.

What happens years later? I get asked out by my current boyfriend after a nice night of hanging out at dinner and it turned into what I have now. He never cares what I do first. He doesn't sit here and commands me to clean his apartment, pack his suitcase for the weekend for him, massage his back on a regular basis. Women who tries to please their men by caving in to every freaking demand, that's not a relationship, that's just a Flinstone relationship.

It depends on how confident a girl is if she wants a relationship. And if some girls are lazy, well, I don't see how a guy would want to date something that is lazy but I strongly doubt that has anything to do with a girl preventing herself from asking a guy out.

Or, maybe it's just how society is. You don't see a girl proposing to her guy asking him to marry her. You NEVER see that, unless we're talking about gay marriages or an out of the blue kind of moon. But you don't see a girl getting on her knee and asking the question. You don't get to see weddings where the girl is standing out, awaiting for her almost-to-be husband walking down the aisle. We're somewhat accustom to this where a guy asks a girl out and such. If girls want to make things different, then that's their move, not anyone else. And it really shouldn't seem like an issue either.
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Zentile
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 •04/16/2012 09:26 PM (UTC) •
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Icebaby Wrote:
I agree with Mojo. Not every woman in this world has the strength to go up to a guy and say "date me, I want you." No, why? It's not because they choose not to, maybe it's because of rejection, fear of being mocked, or other reasons that's not due to pure laziness.


Replace "woman" with "person" and you've got yourself a fact.

I don't understand how this thread could last more than 2 or 3 posts. Why wouldn't women ever make the first move? It's a huge plus if they do, and if they don't they'll get hurt... just like with guys.
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Krayzie_Killin_Joker
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•04/16/2012 09:27 PM (UTC) •
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I do the first move in most cases, that is, if i'm socially comfortable with the environment i'm in.

I've had girls do the first move on me and it doesn't feel awkward at all. I just feel happy as hell when someone attractive takes interest in me.

What I want to do is avoid the friend zone. I absolutely hate going for girl.... and end up being trapped in the friend zone.

Anybody got any suggestions on how to get out of the friend zone..... or better yet, avoid it in the first place?
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Zmoke
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 •04/16/2012 11:18 PM (UTC) •
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Icebaby Wrote:
Or, maybe it's just how society is. You don't see a girl proposing to her guy asking him to marry her. You NEVER see that, unless we're talking about gay marriages or an out of the blue kind of moon. But you don't see a girl getting on her knee and asking the question. You don't get to see weddings where the girl is standing out, awaiting for her almost-to-be husband walking down the aisle. We're somewhat accustom to this where a guy asks a girl out and such. If girls want to make things different, then that's their move, not anyone else. And it really shouldn't seem like an issue either.

To be honest, I witnessed a girl proposing roughly a month ago when my friend's girlfriend asked him to marry her on her knees. He refused, but she was drunk, if men refuse that in the leap day they must "bring as much textile as the woman wishes to make a wedding gown or flee" tells an old saying – he did go to Asia soon after, LOL – which affected in her decision and most importantly my friend is rational. (They're still together.) It may be a cultural difference, too: during 2000-2012 we had a female president, we almost got a gay president now, we've had a female prime minister multiple times, we were the first country in Europe to allow women to vote and so on. Men do those big decisions overall more often.
If DG1OA wants my advice: be maverick, focus on your long-term goals instead of short-term ones, have goals – relax. When you will have a girlfriend, be independent but love and care about her in the same time.
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Kabal20
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 •04/16/2012 11:40 PM (UTC) •
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Icebaby Wrote:
I can sit here and tell you that back in high school, I had a crush on this really awesome guy that I thought would be a nice guy to date. What happens? I tell him, "You know, I really like you, we've hanged out a few times before, want to go out on a nice dinner date?" What happens next? He rejects the offer. (found out, he rejected it because he refused to deal with my medical issue) That really crushed me and I refused to ask out a guy myself since then.


That is pretty shitty. Most guys are willing to be there for someone they care about, regardless of what they are going through.

I think most guys are willing to take the lead in a relationship, it's just when things are just starting out, it can be hard to read women and they are not sure how to handle it. It would just make things more easier for guys if women where upfront that they are interested at least to some extent. It tends to put guys more at easy.

Even if a women doesn't like you, its better if they do take the initiate, be upfront and tell you off rather just let it go, and let the guy chase them. It just helps a guy to move on a not bother wasting his time. I've had a few women who had the impression that I liked them and where upfront about not liking me so that I didn't bother wasting my time with them.

I think in general women don't really have a huge problem initiating and telling guys off when they are not interested, but for some reason when they are interested or wishy-washy over a guy they won't say anything over it.
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ZeroSymbolic7188
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 •04/18/2012 07:00 PM (UTC) •
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I am very much an old school gentlemen and would have nothing to do with a woman that makes the first move. It speaks poorly of her character.

I miss the days when men were men. I hate the feminist movement, and all that crap.
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