Maybe somebody who knows something about law can explain why this sort of behavior doesn't qualify as psychological harassment, or maybe stalking? After all, there's no reason at all why Westboro Baptist fanatics can't anguish in self-disgust over being an American far and away from somebody's funeral. I disagree that legally prohibiting them from doing whatever-it-is-they-think-they're-doing would harm their free speech in any meaningful way. These fanatics and others prostitute free speech to legally defend their reprehensible behavior every time, and civil-minded people never fail to buy into it.

They ought to be proud to be Americans, they live in a country in which things always work out for them.

Not intervene on gay marriage bans being unconstitutional? Check
Protect the rights of wacko Christian fanatics? Check

Whether or not that these people can voice it, amongst with the others that are also saying this, they should be not allowed near funerals. That's the one thing I would love to see

Pretty much my thoughts.

You don't have the right to free speech when your speech is directly (and I emphasize, DIRECTLY) harmful to the private affairs of other citizens. It's not like they wrote a really mean letter. They were at the fucking funeral. Whether they were technically within or outside the perimters of the service makes little difference. Psychological harm is psychological harm.

These people will burn in their own fat once you guys stop paying them attention.

Also, on the average intelligence of the WBCh. Lo, and behold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZJwSjor4hM&feature;=player_embedded

This is no surprise really.

We're still living in the day and age where people just don't get it.

There's a difference between freedom of speech and being a total asshole.

If I were to hate black people, for example, I should be allowed to say so, but blaming them for the wrongs in the world, saying the devil is working through them, acting like they should be pushed off the edge of the planet, etc. is way beyond free speech.

It's one thing to say you hate gays, it's another to try starting a social, political, or religious war.

Obviously the Supreme Court is currently run by people who have no empathy for the groups that this church targets.

Had they "free speeched" about a more politically sensitive subject, I bet the court would not have been so lenient.

Fuck it, for all the criminally awful bullshit SCOTUS passes, I'd figure they could at least work their way around this. If I'm against Citizens United, I can be against this. So yes, I disagree with this ruling. But with that said, there is a very real argument to made in favor of this ruling that I will not touch (well, not too much) with a ten foot pole. Potentially criminalizing ideas expressed within the boundaries of the law, is in fact, an important factor in all of this, and to brush it aside is just short sighted, and vice versa.

Edit: The Sanctity of Funerary Ceremonies Act of 2011. Problem solved.



This is--and I say this without hyperbole--an American past time. If there was no mercy for single mothers in the Reagan years, then I don't see what hope there is for deceased soldiers or homosexuals.

Anonymous is on their ass. No more needs to be said.

A sanctity to a funeral not only violates freedom of speech, but also freedom of assembly. These people aren't stupid, they pick protesting spots en route, but not on the grounds. If you watch their protests it's always across the street from what they are protesting. It's a family of lawyers (yes really). Call them retard if you may, but they're not stupid. It has been stated before that they perform these protests in order to get sued, attacked, what have you.

Are they dirty people for this? Without question. But let's say there was a Klan leader having a funeral. Believe it or not, they used to be pretty ornate affairs. If you ban these people from being assholes the reverse is true, you couldn't protest other acts from a safe distance. If you would allow a ban of protesting at funerals, you know that opens a door? Can't protest at a funeral? "GREAT!" says WBC. Now if one of them dies they can have huge fucking banners and fireworks and huge ass megaphones and shitty music all about how, let's say, Old man Phelps is the best and American soldiers are nothing but (you know all that they say).

So, you've painted yourself in a corner. Nobody says that a graveside only has to last as long as the preacher says a prayer and the body is dropped in a hole. You can rent lot time in a cemetery. They could make a 7 day affair out of it. And now, in your infinite wisdom of restriction of freedom. You can't even hold a minor protest against them. You've clipped your own nuts off.

These people represent one thing: A necessary evil. Because if you decided who cannot voice an opinion, then who's in charge of deciding that? Look at Icy's posts. Being impartial and being forced to decide that hate speech is wrong, it could easily be censored.

Naw, I'd prefer to have the right to counter-protest, thank you.

-Shoe

Quoted for Fucking Truth. It's amazing how many people confuse "Freedom of Speech" with "Freedom to Say only what I Agree With." If you don't like them, either don't listen or, even better, take advantage of the same system that allows them to spew their hate and counter it with words that go against their beliefs.

This makes me feel a lot better.

Are you two serious? Protect their rights so you can protest them back? Wow, how useful. Sorry, but I personally won't stoop to that level and I would hope most other people wouldn't either.

Horrid rationalization in my opinion. I would support a "sanctity of funeral" type arrangement because regardless of the person, a funeral is a time to put whatever negative feelings for them aside. You aren't forced to attend or pay your respects, but there's little reason to protest even if you hate the person. They have a family as well, and it's disrespectful to the living to insult their dead regardless of their life's deeds. It's petty and the only way I could see someone having an excuse to do that would be if they caused you harm while living.

I'm shocked and appalled either of you would support "fight fire with fire", which is a mindless strategy that never has any positive benefits. The whole, "Well don't listen to their protests if you don't like it, it's freedom of speech" argument is garbage as well because it's impossible not to listen to these people when they're within shouting or sight distance screaming vulgarities and waving signs.

It's an option crow. I'd rather leave my options open than to stem them.

Take my scenario though. Stopping protest while a funeral is going on is rather difficult to achieve. How far away would you have to be? The Phleps clan will just go that distance away. They'll still get on TV. They'll still be an annoyance. This hasn't solved much. What if they decide to protest the families during the wake? Or what if they decide to protest after the funeral is over? At the church while the people are at the grave site?

Then you may think "Ban protests during any funeral." What about cities with multiple funeral homes (and thus) multiple funerals/graves going on a good chunk of the day? What about people who are protesting things that have nothing to do with the funeral? The questions get muddier the more abstract we treat the problem.

You know what my line of work was. People shouldn't be at the grave site when the casket is being lowered, but that's my own thing and subject for another topic. Still, when the preacher is done, the family doesn't immediately evacuate. They may linger around. For hours even, looking at other family graves/headstones/markers. Some cemeteries don't let you stick around, some let you lollygag all day. There's no written rule. So how long would you ban? How do you determine when the funeral is over? What about the wakes? Sometimes those start a day or two before. Sometimes people watch the lowering. Sometimes they're not allowed to. Sometimes the funeral director escorts everyone when the preacher/priest/rabbi/whatever is done blessing.

So when do you determine when a funeral starts and ends? What about protesting in front of Planned Parenthood clinics? What about protesting against the government in any capacity? Where do you draw the line of what constitutes hate? Sadly, I can't think of a clear answer. Which goes back to freedom of assembly. What if they just stand around, but don't officially protest, wearing T-shirts that say all the mean, hateful things that they yell?

Then you come into another problem. In the US, some cities have you register that you're going to protest (When, what, and where). For saftey of the protesters, police, and people being protested. In a situation like that, you could change the time of the funeral. Especially since filing a protest form takes a few hours to process.

And not everyone is sad at funerals. I'm sorry. But they're not all sacred as people like to picture them. I've got stories if you're ever interested. XD Again, another topic another time. Suffice to say, not every funeral ends with people crying, women wearing black veils, and men lowering the casket with ropes.

Which doesn't segue at all, but makes me want to touch base with the bigger problem. If we tell these people "You can't protest because your despicable, hateful, unwanted things you say are not only not appreciated, but not allowed." Then what have you done? You've done what they would have done if given the opportunity. Deciding who can say, or think, or act. You've become the very problem you're trying to eradicate. You may placate yourself with saying that it's because you care and these people don't. And I couldn't argue. What I would argue is that now you've created a tool for others to abuse as they like. Your heart is in the right place, but who do you trust to make the decisions for what should or shouldn't count as protest? They aren't going to go calling up one of us at 3 AM "Quick! We need to know whether this protest is moral!" No, they're going to use their own gut instincts. Have you seen our government at work? Go to slashdot.org and dig through the YRO (Your Rights Online). Skimming over just the US related loss of rights. If that doesn't make you sad, then I don't know what to tell you.

A person may be angry that the patriot act allows additional wire tapping. That it's been expanded. I could start talking about how to make bombs right here and someone could report me for terrorism. My ass shipped off to Guantanamo (No they haven't closed it). That the DMCA allows sony to have all the info from your facebook and youtube account just if you visited a website that mentioned a hack without regard to whether you done it or not. Not even mattering if you even downloaded it. Just visited the site. That the president is pushing a bill to have a stop button on the internet like the one used in Egypt. And you're asking me to believe that breaking a fundamental right guaranteed in the First Amendment will be guided wisely and fairly and never be abused? I can't see how.

I empathize. I understand. What these people are doing is the lowest of bullshit ever. I could never condone holding a funeral time as a place to start up bullshit about how I hate something. Except maybe the food. I hate ham buns.

The alternative, for all the good intentions it is paved with, is still a road to hell. I'd rather protest outside their house during sunday mass, than give someone the tools to prevent me from ever having the right to do so. I have to take the long term outlook. Eventually, these people are going to run out. It's a family afterall. They all live together (incest jokes aside). It can't be kept on perpetually. I would rather take solace in the fact that eventually these people will die away.

I know you won't agree. Mostly because it's me talking. lol ;D But maybe you can address my questions if you disagree.

-Shoe

For people who looked at Shoe's post and thought, "tl;dr", here's the meat:
When everyone says there probably ought to be a law, there probably ought to be; however, every law made takes away some freedoms, which can be a good thing (I can't kill you, you can't kill me), but can also be used to cause new, unforeseeable problems. Telling them to not protest at funerals would only make them protest elsewhere, and they will protest elsewhere, whether it be at another location with dead soldiers, or at a gay bar, or whatever else they hate and want to protest against.
They could even change tactics entirely and protest in a number of ways, all of which can be quiet, not flashy, but still leave them present and still leave a bad taste in everyone's mouths. When people want to spread a message, they will find a way, and there are only so many laws that can be made against them that would eventually affect our freedom.
Taking away their freedom to protest would only plant a seed to prevent us from protesting when we need to. Banning protests in general is the last thing on your minds when you guys say, "ban the Westboro Baptist church from protesting at funerals", but eventually, that specificity could disappear, and where could we all wind up if that day comes? Lord knows that I don't like thinking about that.

^^ Agree 100%

The truth is, this is not the first time people do evil in the name of "God."

There has been so many evil cult leaders that deceive their followers and others into thinking they have a connection with God and know the truth, and only through them will they be saved and whatnot.

The leader of this church is no different than Manson and other demons that use religion as a weapon of destruction.

Why our government would be so moronic as to not realize this despite the elaborate history of people like this (*coughs* Hitler *coughs* Osama) is beyond me.



I'd say a terrorist attack is next on their list by the looks of it.

Voicing your opinion is one thing, but being invasive and imposing it on others... I mean duh, can't they tell the difference?

And I imagined the Court would have been a little more patriotic. I mean letting them preach against our troops? WTF? I guess not...

I fucking hate the Westboro Baptist Church, but I have no choice but to admit it is a right as an Amercian citizen to excercise protest, even if it evolves voicing hatred. The KKK even have the right to protest the sufferage of African Americans.

Unfortunately, we don't have the right throw beer bottles at them.

I'd like to note that I didn't open the "God" door.

I was one who was willing to skip right over to address the issue. But since you two did open it let's explore.

I'm an atheist. That means that according to a great many religions, I'm going to Hell. Now, just because I'm exercising a matter of choice, if I even MENTION it to a friend on a street corner someone will come up to me and tell me to:

A) Shut up because I don't mean it.

B) I am evil and will go to Hell.

C) That I am disrupting society because of a private belief.

D) Most of the above with more foam forming in the corners of the mouth. And lots of cursing.

Now, telling me I'm going to Hell just because I don't share your ideology. How is that not hate speech? I mean seriously, honestly, if you wish eternal damnation to me because I don't agree with you. And they announce it loudly without regard to how that may make me feel by making a spectacle of it. How is this not hate speech? Also, at what point does silently agreeing with a system that would wish eternal damnation onto someone not because of deed, not because of any outlined planned to treat other people, not because evil is even inherent, but because it's not popular. I find that even more hateful.

Then you guys go on about how these people don't understand God. That you hate systems that reinterpret God's message. About how they make shit up in God's name. Excuse me? What religion has the direct line to God's opinion?

Nobody addressed my questions. No! All you did was shout at how wrong my opinion could be and then tried to insinuate that I would condone their actions. CLEARLY, you haven't read what I said. CLEARLY, you can't even consider that your own opinion might not be absolute. I even gave ideas as starting points of how maybe a median could be reached.

No. You're here to preach because you believe your ideals are the only right ones and anything that doesn't nod in agreement must be supportive of this crap. I fail to see how this is any different from the very people you're bitching about.

I wish some day that you will wake up from your dream and want to treat everyone with the same kindness you ask to recieve.

Crow, I'd like to thank you for giving a good argument to the opposing side. It made me think. Jerrod, have fun with this group. You did impress me with your summation.

-Shoe

The problem isn't in wether you go to hell or not. Sure, according to scripture thoe who do not accept the redeemer are going to perish.

That doesn't mean I should act all self righteous and uppity about it. Whatever happened to Judge not, lest be judged yourself? OK, so Christianity and most monotheist religions make a good deal about spreading the word.


The problem comes from being violently self assured that in all cases you must convince the other.... I don't force someone who is well in knowing of the consequences and still declines the offer. These people generally make a mockery out of free choice by going YOU MUST CONVERT, making the choice for us. How convenient.

How convenient, usually the more self assured and helpful they are, the more it shows that they are religious supremacists. Which is ok, since no reason can dismiss the divine will of your perceived religion, but for the sake of God, do it right, and not go public zealot.


Ghandhi mentioned it once that he doesn't like certain Christians because they are so unlike of Christ. He also said that western civilization would be a good idea.

I do not care what your religion is, or any of your personal beliefs. I say if you cool with me, I'm cool with you. I feel like a lot of people feel like that. If you believe something else, that is completely fine, but I do not think you should try and ram it down peoples throat. When you have an argument online about religion/politics, it is pretty intense, and no one really gets anywhere because ultimately, people are going to believe what they want to believe, and that is the way it ends 99% of the time.

Now as for the Westboro Baptist Church, that's a different story. For those of you who do not know, they are the ones who go an protest outside of soldiers funerals with their "God hates Fags" signs indicating that this soldier died because of their sins/families sins and their homosexual life styles. For one, that makes no damn sense to begin with. It is silly. These people came to Columbia Missouri to protest Michael Sam (The football player for the University of Missouri who recently came out) and the student body formed what they called a "Love wall" and blocked the protesters from getting where they wanted. So shout outs to them, I love them so much for that.

Now on to a story that is close to me. In Springfield Missouri (where I live) there was a pretty big tragedy on Tuesday. a 10 year old girl was abducted while walking to her friends house. They eventually found the guy who did it. He was a football coach/ISS teacher at the school district the girl went to. Even though they found the guy, they had not found the girl. a couple hours later they found the girl. Her body was stuffed in a washing machine at a laundromat with a bullet in the back of her head. This news terribly devastated me. I do not live in a big city, so things like this never happen. It is so disgusting to me how some people are so sick in this world.

Tomorrow we are having a Candle Light Vigil for the deceased girl, and we are to wear pink and purple to show our support during the march. These SICK and OBNOXIOUS ASS FUCKS from the WBC are going to picket this event. This TRAGEDY. They will come with their stupid ass God Hates Fags signs, and will make the claim that GOD sent the shooter on the girl because we as a state support homosexuality. Now I am not really religious. I believe in God because that's what I was raised to believe, and I do feel like it is a good idea to have some sort of belief. Now my beliefs of God are probably not the strongest in terms of Biblical accuracy, but I am almost 100% positive that God would not want these assholes doing this.

I will be at the event tmrw. My first thought was to take one of their signs and break it over their head. Then I realized that they probably would want that. The media is going to cover it regardless. They feed off of the hate. They would win if we did that. I also thought that no matter what happens that will be the result; us just fighting with them, and them claiming violence and them "winning" I have been trying to think of a witty, non-violent way to make these FOOLS pay. I have not got one yet.

Sorry if this was a long boring read for you guys, but this shit has never got to me personally until now. It's sick. Ill post some links to the stories.

WBC plans picket
Suspect of murder held in court today
Child Porn found in killers home
Suspect has $1 Million trust in his name?!
Who was this killer?

Fuck 'em.

I'm sure a longer reply to your thought-out post would've been better, but that's really all I have to say about the WBC.

Eradicate them.

The WBC needs taken down and dismantled somehow. Overt physical aggression, like you pointed out, isn't the way to do it but they need infiltrated, sued, or somehow legally disempowered.

They're a blight on humanity.

Unfortunately, they cannot be denied their legal right to speak their mind, even if it's in the worst way possible.

Sometimes, I hope the rapture does come, just so I can see their faces when they're still here. lol

Westboro Baptist are sick, disgusting human beings. And they deliberately attempt to push people into physical violence so they can instigate lawsuits. This is precisely how they fund their organization. I know that it's easy for people to say "Ignore them. They're just attention-whores." But I can imagine ignoring them is next to impossible when you're a grieving family member of the deceased.

And I'm still trying to wrap my head around their decision to picket while the community grieves the death of a 10-year-old girl!!!!

You evil, heartless, godless, soulless sons of whores!!!